A few days ago I paid a deposit for a brand new car. It’s very stressful and something I’ve only ever done once before. I’m sure there are folks here that do it regularly. I’ve already entrusted quite a bit of personal information to them and they only need a small amount more for some convincing identity theft and I know the sales people there can’t really be trusted as they’ve lied to us on more than one occasion.
So, my question is, what part of the process does the salesman need to know my date of birth for?
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Leedsboy says
For the financing? Or the registration documentation?
mikethep says
They’re sales people…lying’s what they’re paid to do. I’m sure LB’s right – you have to prove you’re old enough to enter into a credit agreement, and to drive, come to that. If you were buying the car outright you could always pay by bank cheque, that would keep your details secret to an extent; if you’re buying on credit I don’t think you can.
Look on the bright side, though: well over 2m new cars were registered in 2013. The buyers can’t all have had their identities stolen.
johnw says
Well we don’t do finance so it’ll just be a debit card on the day I pick it up and the car registration process explicitly states that date of birth information isn’t required. I paid the deposit with a credit card and you need to be over 18 to have one so they already have that information.
I think they’re just being officious and two can play at that game! If they threaten to cancel the order I can go elsewhere, after all, a factory order for a car will turn out the same whatever dealer I go to!
Of course if they were more subtle in their lies I might be more tempted to believe them but when they lie about things that can subsequently be easily looked up on the Web they might as well be wearing a badge!
johnw says
Of course also, if I decide I want my wife to drive the car home then that’s fine also so they don’t need to know if I have a licence either. There’s no lower age limit on owning a car in the UK.
BaldySlaphead says
I’ve no idea whether there is any legitimate requirement for your DoB. I think I would simply ask why they needed my DoB and if they were unable to give a satisfactory response tell them you’ll buy from someone else.
However, it depends how awkward you want to be about this:
There are 8 principles underpinning the Data Protection Act 1998. Breaching any of them can (in theory, if not necessarily in practice) lead to a financial penalty from the Information Commissioner. More worrying to an organisation is reputational damage.
Principle 3 states “Personal data shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purpose or purposes for which they are processed.”
If the collection of date of birth information is of manifestly no purpose, then it would be considered excessive and you could report them to the ICO (https://ico.org.uk/concerns/)
I would consider whether the company might be selling on the data they collect to other companies who would find your DoB info useful, such as insurance companies. If they are doing this, and they have not informed you that they are doing this (most likely in the small print), they are breaching another principle (P2 – “Personal data shall be obtained only for one or more specified and lawful purposes[…]”).
Section 11 of the Act gives a right to prevent processing for the purposes of direct marketing. You need to do this in writing, and state that you are refusing the right for them to pass your information to any third party for the same purpose. Explicitly state you do not give your consent for this.
If their documentation is structured in such a way that you cannot buy the car without also granting them the right to sell on your data, simply cross through the bits you don’t like and sign the amendment.
johnw says
Thanks, I may be quoting some of that in an email before the week is out!
Lunaman says
Hi Mikethep,
I’m a salesman amoungst other labels and I’m paid not to lie. If I did I woud have lost my integrity and my customers simply wouldn’t buy from me. I’m not in the auto trade which does have a bit of a reputation unfortunately. As it happens my daughter is replacing her first car currently and she has come to me for advice. I have probably lead her to pay slightly more than she might but I have mamanged to buy a car from a work colleague who I know bought it from new and has looked after it well. I didn’t have any contacts in the trade and felt this was the best option. I have no faith in being able to buy a secondhand car from a garage with the confidence that all is ligit. Sorry state of affairs really. The auto trade has some work to do to build public confidence.
johnw says
As an engineer, if I ask someone a question and they don’t know the answer, I’m happy for them to say “I don’t know”, either followed by “I’ll find out” or “I think it’s probably…..”. If they just go straight into an answer they’ve made up without telling me it’s a guess, I consider that to be lying. Once a salesman has lied once I know I can’t trust anything else he (or she) says and pretty much everything presented as a fact after that point is challenged which makes my job slightly more entertaining and the salesman’s job much harder as they end up having to justify pretty much everything. I guess they work on the law of averages but it doesn’t help build a decent reputation. The problem is that, if you want to buy a precision engineered automotive product, prepared for you in a factory somewhere in Bavaria, you seem to have little choice but to go through a UK car salesman to get it.
Vulpes Vulpes says
They probably have a script to follow and no authority to vary it. If they are also obliged to enter the data into a system that has been coded to make a particular data item mandatory to capture before further progress can be made, that decision may have effectively been made for them. If you tell them you’re not willing to supply any information for which they cannot provide a sound justification it’ll be up to them to decide if they carry on or abandon the process.
Vulpes Vulpes says
PS Date Of Birth would typically be a mandatory data item to supply as input for a Credit Reference Agency check (Experian, Equifax etc.) to get your credit score, but you’ve said this wouldn’t be appropriate for this transaction, so I’d guess they have no justification for demanding it.
homebaked says
I bought my trusty 2003 Citroen estate, second-hand, from one of these horrid, outdoor megastore-type wastelands on the outskirts of Newport, donkeys’ years ago. Actually I’ve been very lucky as it has been reliable and trouble-free and I am deeply attached to its 175,000 miles. But on the subject of salesmen and their “script”: this one’s script required him to chat bloke-to-bloke with my husband on technical and performance details (even though I was paying and the car was for me) – and to save one single question for me: WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE COLOUR?
Sales manual dated circa 1971, I’d say.
johnw says
Oh, that’s another one of my salesman winding up tactics, if he looks at me when it’s my wife he should be addressing (especially when she’s asked the question) I just tell them that it’s not me that wants to know and spend the next minute devising a much harder question. Ironically, it seems that the only technical details that some car salesmen know about the car is what colour it is and how big the wheels are!
Martin Hairnet says
I’ve bought used cars unseen off eBay before and they have all been great buys. Feedback ensures seller transparency and quickly weeds out the dodgy dealers.
fortuneight says
Most garages don’t want to sell you a car – they want to sell you a finance deal. I was under the illusion that a cash sale would be attractive but for many of them the real margins are in finance and extended warranty.
A salesman recently got pretty huffy with me when – given I was paying cash, with no part exchange – I objected to his endless requests for personal info – my DoB, occupation and so on. He claimed it was FSA regulations and maintained he was obligated to set out the finance options. I claimed it was utter tosh and when he refused to budge on price we took our custom elsewhere.
Indeed, it turns out buying cars with other people’s money also gets past questions like “so you want to pay cash – where is the cash coming from?”. After the second time I was asked this I took to saying “kids piggy bank as well laundering cash from drug deals”. A guaranteed tumbleweed moment every time.
I loath buying cars and mobile phones.
johnw says
If I get asked about where the cash is coming from I suspect I’ll say “Well I’ve got a proper job”. That should be interesting.
Jim Cain says
Yes, hopefully it would end with you picking your teeth up off the forecourt.
Leedsboy says
They may want to send you a birthday card every year?
Vulpes Vulpes says
…offering you the chance to invest in a slice of the legacy they’ve got in trust from a wealthy eccentric Nigerian who died on your birthday and wants to give away his billions to those born on the same day.
Rigid Digit says
Recently bought Used Car from Dealer.
Only thing I think they can want the date of birth for is the (usually provided) 7 Day Drive Away Insurance
johnw says
They didn’t ask m if I want the insurance and I don’t. I have to organise the insurance to switch cars at some stage so I might as well do it beforehand rather than use the free one which, last time I saw one, was very much akin to the sort you get with a hire car with a stupidly high excess should you need to claim. There’s been no word for 24 hours now about why they want the info so I guess it’s not a very straightforward reason.
Steerpike says
My boss recently had his credit card details stolen – unbeknownst to him. He thinks someone took down the details when he foolishly left his wallet in an unlocked locker at the gym. He was contacted by the provider who asked him whether he had bought 3 used cars to the value of £23,000. The thief had, after some minor transactions to test whether anyone had noticed, bought 3 cars using just the credit card details. I am sure that none asked for his date of birth.
Mike Hull says
Car dealers are obliged to check IDs (which includes DoB) as part of anti-money laundering procedures, because buying a car (especially with cash) is a classic way of cleaning up dirty money and car dealers are classified as High Value Dealers under UK and EU legislation. I think there is a limit to what can be accepted in actual cash (€15,000). The same applies to other ‘professions’, which is why accountants, solicitors and estate agents are obliged to check IDs these days.
BaldySlaphead says
Sounds reasonable. But given that’s the case, there should have been no delay in telling John why his DoB was required, so they’re still a bit crap.
Bargepole says
Yep – money laundering regulations are the culprit here.
Can’t even do someone’s tax return these days, for example, without seeing two forms of ID, one of which has to be photographic. Such is the world we live in.
johnw says
Actually, it turns out that it’s legally required information when registering a new car with DVLA. I’m not sure how hard it would have been to have told me that in the first place and pointed me in the direction of the relevant web page but the dopey salesman didn’t. It just points again to them saying (or in this case typing) the first thing that comes into their heads). Anyway, it’s sorted now with dire warnings not to use the inoformation for any other purpose or to keep any record of it.
Leedsboy says
Do I win a prize then?
johnw says
Obviously, but I can do better than that. Once it arrives, I’m willing to let you clean it on a regular basis. My car normally only get cleaned once or twice a year so you can see I don’t make that offer to anybody!
Leedsboy says
Fantastic – I’m not cheap mind.
James Blast says
Just think about that ‘new car’ smell… mmmmmm