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Yes were better than Genesis…discuss

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Genesis could never do this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93y9wfB3EM8

3

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  2. Not for me they werent. I liked both but Yes stagnated at the point of Topographic Ocean whilst Genesis carried on a little longer.
    I don’t think Yes did anything as good as Nursery Chryme or Foxtrot.

  3. The interest for me in Genesis (up to the departure of Steve Hackett) is – for want of a better term – in the texture of what they did, rather than in virtuosity in their playing. Banks could rattle off a fast keyboard run on In the Cage, or Robbery Assault and Battery, but it was Hackett’s guitar stuff that made me a fan. The way the guitar runs through Carpet Crawl, the solo in Firth of Fifth and the close of Suppers Ready where his guitar soars over the top of everything. Wonderful. And often not complicated. I can play some of them.

    I’m afraid I don’t know anything by Yes.

    • My thoughts exactly. Love Genesis until Hackett left – it was the lovely layers and textures from that guitar. His departure was much more devastating for the group than Gabriel’s.

      Cant stand “Yes” and can think of many “prog” bands (King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Camel, Caravan) that I much prefer.

  4. Wheaty I recall you and I may have had words about this on the Progcast all those years ago. Whilst I really like some Yes (and The Yes Album is fabulous) as a body of work I think Genesis from Foxtrot to Wind and Wuthering is as good as prog ever got. Gabriel’s imagination coupled with the ‘musicality’ ( that word again) of the rest of the band is simply magical.

    • Seeing the Musical Box gig last month reminded me why Genesis were my first proper fave band, back in my schooldays. I don’t listen as frequently nowadays, so I was almost listening fresh that night. I was impressed how different, inventive and, yes, musical it all was.

      And so were Yes.

  5. To my ears, Yes were more Jazz; a disparate group of crack musicians improvising off each other with some daft vocals. Genesis were a band who grew together and stayed together, until they didn’t, were well organised and wrote some actual songs. Me? I like Jazz.

  6. Gabriel > Anderson, or is at least vastly more easy in the ear. That’s all I need to know to give Genesis the win. Not that I listen to either very much.

  7. My belief is that the best Genesis output was 1976 to 1985. I may be alone in this.
    I think Yes were the better musicians (or certainly more studious), but I can’t really split the two bands in the Prog Glory Years.
    Score draw, Genesis win in extra time (although 90125 nearly forced penalties)

  14. Such a classic Word/AW thread!

    I never owned a Yes album but I liked the music I heard – probably the singles – Roundabout, Your Move. I remember taping Heart Of The Sunrise on my Thorn reel-to-reel.

    Genesis – saw them in 73/74, the stage was all white, they were sitting down – do I remember correctly? Don’t remember anything about the music.

    Emerson Lake and Palmer however, seeing we’re talking toppermost of the poppermost prog, I just loved.

    My two bobs worth…

    • Better names for their albums, that’s for certain. I had a Fruup catch-up a while back and got the back catalogue on CD to replace my couple of aging vinlys of theirs. Crikey, some of their playing is a bit ropey! Something I hadn’t noticed at the time. OTOH, the ‘Harry’s Toenail’ album was one of the few LPs I flogged at a record fair in order to buy something better from another band. I think I picked up ‘Waiting For Columbus’ that day with the proceeds, which was one of the best buys I ever made!

  16. Mmmm, strokes beard.

    Player for player they were very equally matched.

    Drums – Brufird and White were both fantastic but I’m giving it to Collins as the most distinctive stylist
    Bass – Both had quirky unusual bass players. Rutherford probably the better asset with his 12 string and writing capabilities
    Keys – Banks was a key player especially in writing but also the many signature parts but Wakeman is a monster and glued together the bits and pieces of ideas the others came up with. Too hard to call. Wakeman much more fun.
    Guitar – again both terrific players but I’m giving it to Hackett because his style is more evolved and identifiable.
    Vocals – both brilliant, very hard to call but I think Gabriel is more fun.

    Musically they both hit great heights but overall Genesis had more space and air for me. Their dynamics were better and the acoustic interludes are a joy. You can relax to Genesis but I venture to say you can’t relax to Yes. But you don’t play air keys to a Tony Banks solo.

    Final score – Genesis take it by a nose but it’s very close to call and if we went track by track it would be even harder to judge.

    • Random reminiscence: back in the mid-70s when I was shacked up with a member of the Berkshire quality we went to a Sunday afternoon party in a gorgeous Queen Anne house on the banks of the Kennet and Avon canal. Lots of beautiful people drifting about, horses to ride for them as fancied it – and emanating from a barn at some volume, the sophisticated stylings of none other than Hatfield and the North, noodling away as if there was no tomorrow. Quite why anybody thought the Big Jobs (Poo Poo Extract) hitmakers a suitable soundtrack to the lazy hazy crazy days of summer I have no idea, but it made a change. Robert Wyatt was there too – in a wheelchair, which dates it I guess.

    • Vital stuff this.
      Let’s see:

      There’s always been Ethel; “Jacob, wake up, you’ve got to tidy your room now!”
      And then Mister Lewis; “Isn’t it time that he was out on his own?”
      Over the garden wall, two little lovebirds, cuckoo to you – keep them mowing blades sharp.

      versus

      Speak to me of summer, long winters longer than time can remember.
      Setting up of other roads, to travel on in old accustomed ways.
      I still remember the talks by the water, the proud sons and daughters that in the knowledge of the land spoke to me in sweet accustomed ways.

      No contest: Yes win.

      😉

  19. Cutting edge. The “Dave” of it’s time.

    I think we have to consider the phases of the bands, with Yes’s imperial phase (1971 to 1977) astonishing, and that includes Topographic Oceans, the latter for the progressiveness of it. Genesis had a lighter touch, but when good in the Gabriel era could be very good indeed; I often thought Tony Banks did a lot with a more restricted set of keyboards. Gabriel unworldly was less annoying than Jon Anderson unworldly. In both cases their imperial-phase ‘singles’ were deeply annoying and distractions from what is good about the acts. Both lost it a bit as they went on, though I thought “90125” a far better effort than any post 1977 Genesis offering, and in the 40 years since “Tormato”, there is still an LP’s worth of good stuff. No more, mind – but “Keys to Ascension” and “Magnification” had a fair few reasonable tracks.

    But like others above, these days I am more interested in less famous progressive bands; PFM, Canterbury acts, Gentle Giant, VdGG … whisper it quietly, but these bands are not so over-exposed.

  22. I was fortunate to attend gigs by Yes and Genesis. Yes when they were touring Close To The Edge and Genesis twice. The first time with Gabriel on the Foxtrot tour and a few years later without his eminence pouncing about like a big daft daisy. I can categorically state that on none of those occasions was the scent of patchouli oil disturbed by the bored scowling of smelly girls.

  23. The OP song was played relentlessly by older brothers while I was still grappling with the Osmonds – but this one here I really really like. It’s the extraordinary vocals, mainly.

    I’ve Seen All Good People

  25. Since seeing Musical Box a few weeks ago I revisited The Lamb which I discarded back in the day as being overblown and impenetrable and I have barely listened to it since. Boy was I wrong. It is a huge album and whilst it definitely could lose 2/3 tracks, it sounds unlike any other Genesis album. The playing much more muscular and aggressive and Gabriel singing his heart out ( I guess he knew it was the end plus he was going through difficult times with his first child critically ill). What is it about -well I’m still not entirely sure but it does feel that there are religious and spiritual undertones but more obtuse than in Suppers Ready. I now feel that this really might be their masterpiece. To get back to the thread this album as an overall piece of artistic creation trounces anything by Yes.

    • I bought The Lamb on its day of release. I played side one. I’ve still got the double album, gatefold pristine, sides two to four untroubled by stylus to this day. I still haven’t even re-played side one. It is as your younger self said, impenetrable, at least to me, even now. I bought it on CD at some point, and reminded myself of what side one sounded like. Took it off and put that copy back on my shelf too.

      • I downloaded it off Spotty a few days ago after reading Feedback’s post but I fear it falls prey to the “made for vinyl” theory I espoused recently. After 24 minutes you need a bloody break but in digital world it just keeps coming. I must have a look at how it’s broken up in the physical world and make it into four playlists for sides 1-4.

        • The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway is an album I wish I’d never heard. Side one is the best.

          A single Lamb would be:

          The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway
          Fly On A Windshield
          Broadway Melody Of 1974
          Cuckoo Cocoon
          In The Cage
          Counting Out Time
          Carpet Crawlers
          Anyway
          Here Comes The Supernatural Anaesthetist
          The Light Dies a Down On Broadway
          Riding The Scree

  27. I bought those runs of 5 albums from both bands at the time: Genesis with Trespass/Nursery/ Foxtrot/England/Lamb and Yes with Time/Album/Fragile/Edge/not Topographic!/Relayer, all released between 1970 and 1974, all good albums full of amazing playing, decent melodies and pop smarts, even if it often took 10+ minutes to say it. Pink Floyd, ELP, and Van der Graaf Generator were similarly prolific at the time for the, frankly, stoner audience. .

    Both bands did initial did not-quite-representative records, both hit their stride on the second, then did masterpieces. The Yes Album is in fact the classic line-up, I think, before big shot, truckload-of-keyboards Wakeman arrived to spoil the balance. Fragile was patchy on account of this Ummagumma-style “everyone gets to do a piece” bollocks, but next up Close To The Edge was both soft and razor sharp, as opposed to Topographic, which was just sloppy and in need of some quality control. They had swapped drummers too, and swapped out Wakeman for their next, terrific Relayer album. Downhill after that.

    Genesis LPs, meanwhile, had improved to the extent that Foxtrot/England represented that focused but gentle, almost Merrie England-meets-prog-meets theatre approach they strived for, culminating in the completely wonderful if slightly (lyrically) overloaded Lamb in 1974, knocking the Yes double LP from 1973 into a cocked hat.

    Who’s better? in fact, I still play all of this stuff in the trad way, as LPs. I suggested above that Wakeman hadn’t been quite ideal for Yes (not really a group guy), but actually it was the departure of Bruford that drained the life out of Yes (Relayer notwithstanding). Before he went though, the propulsive energy of his drumming was magnificently captured by good ole’ Eddie Offord, nobody snaps a snare like him. And obviously he was in that amazing rhythm section with Squire. So yeah, Bruford was the outstanding musician in the Yes/Genesis constellation and his contributions edged his band ahead in a very high-level comparison, certainly on the first 4 albums listed above, on which he appeared. Gone all too soon really.

    OOAA, natch.

    • You don’t rate Alan White, then? His career arc is quite remarkable, working with Lennon (that’s him on Instant Karma) and Harrison while being produced by Phil Spector and also was a member of Ginger Baker’s Air Force. He got one week’s notice to join Yes on their Close To The Edge tour when Bruford, always a Jazz drummer in my view, joined King Crimson. Clearly, the training in Spector’s boot camp made him very resilient.

      • Nothing wrong with White, he just wasn’t Bruford, the spell was broken. Actually, 1974 was a watershed year for me personally as I’d been going off “rock”. Sure, there were new interesting bands appearing (Little Feat, Steely Dan) and there was jazzrock (RTF, Weather Report, Mahavishnu, Hancock: it transpired that Miles was the unifying factor), and there was proper black jazz (Sanders, Shepp, Art Ensemble), and of course there were various iterations of Zappa, not to mention Miles himself. King Crimson too. Plenty to be going on with.

        • The Simpsons joke about 1974 being the peak year for music because it is usually regarded as the worst. Yes, Status Quo were at their most imperial, Reggae and Dub were just getting going and Soul was waning but there are lots of albums I still love today: Pretzel Logic, Rock Bottom, The Average White Band, Fulfillingness First Finale, Feats Don’t Fail Me Now, On The Beach, Natty Dread, Kimono My House, Good Old Boys, Court & Spark, Al Green Explores Your Mind, Nightbirds, Rejuvenation, Red, Taking Tiger Mountain (By Strategy), Get Up With It, Country Life, Inspiration Information, Sneakin’ Sally Through The Alley, Double Seven, Fear, I Can’t Stand The Rain, Paradise & Lunch, Planet Waves, Diamond Dogs…

          Turns out 1970 is my least favourite with only Abraxas, Bitches Brew, Curtis, Bryter Layter, Spirit In The Dark, Third, Version Galore, Loaded, Plastic Ono Band and All Things Must Pass really making the grade. I’m not looking forward to that many 50th anniversary reissues this year.

          • Good man, lovely bunch of records there. Going on the worthwhile 6 CD Hot Rats package, expect an expanded Weasels presently. Also Plastic Ono Band and All Things Must Pass, probably Third by Soft Machine, Lizard by King Crimson, the first ELP, Workingman’s Dead, John Barleycorn, Atom Heart Mother Thank Christ For The Bomb, first Hawkwind, first Sabbath. Loads of good records in 1970

            • I’d be surprised if an expanded Weasels Ripped My Flesh was released.
              It was principally a collection of leftover tracks from when MGM Verve dropped Zappa (and simultaneously The Velvet Underground) and he signed with Reprise and broke up the band.
              Mostly Mothers of Invention tracks. Live stuff and a few unused studio recordings and one leftover (Directly From My Heart to You) from the Hot Rats sessions.
              I don’t think any of it was specifically recorded for the album, although some editing and overdubbing was probably done then.

              • Yes, Mike, it was a ragbag even then (best sleeve ever, mind). The family though (Ahmed?) is very likely to discover some sweepings needing release.

                Just multiply “live stuff and a few unused studio recordings and one leftover” by whatever and hey presto!

                Not that I’m a begrudger: some fine releases down the years and it actually is terrific to hear those Sugarcane sessions even 50 years later. Good that the Hot Rats sessions are available on Youtube however, they’re a bit pricey.

        • I’ve never got over Bruford’s whining, whingeing autobiography where he reveals he hates being in Yes and thought they were basically inept amateurs. He doesn’t mention whether he declined the tsunami of royalties which followed.

          • Haven’t read that but he never struck me as a whingey type. Quite unfair to dis that band though, it was his big break and he stayed for 5 albums. Just shut up and play, eh?

            Lemme guess, he took the royalties..
            😉

    • I’ve seen some talk of that and I should be the target audience – having seen them multiple times and liking stuff across their whole catalogue.

      But…. Given the current state of Phil Collins health and the fact he would have to sit through the whole concert, I don’t think I would actually want to go. It may be brilliant (and I have no doubt having seeing various YouTube clips his son can hold his own on the drum kit), but I just have the feeling seeing them like this would “spoil the memory”. Maybe this should be a whole new thread – when do you give up on groups you have loved…..

      In answer to the original OP – I like both and both hit great heights, but I probably play Genesis more, so they get the nod.

    • Probably Wheaty’s call but we’ve all taken a period we know of, unavoidable really with artists who’ve been around for 50 years. I did 70 to 74 as I regarded them both as seriously good back then.

      Still, Owner Of A Lonely Heart, eh? Eh? Sizable hit, Trevor Horn producing, Yes turning into a dance band, I danced to it, still would.

      So, Freddy, vote by all means.

  32. Genesis and Yes, my rankings:
    1. The Carpet Crawl (Seconds Out version) – Genesis
    2. Turn Of The Century – Yes
    3. Inside And Out – Genesis
    4. Follow You, Follow Me – Genesis
    5. Wonderous Stories – Yes
    6. Trick Of The Tail – Genesis
    7. And You & I – Yes
    8. Many Too Many – Genesis
    9. That’s All – Genesis
    10.There is no number ten. Even number 9 is a bit dodgy.

    (My overall choice would be Genesis, purely on account of they spawned Gabriel, who went on to be proper good.)

    • Not trying to be rude, Gary, but aren’t these all a bit “girlie-prog”? Not a lot of long conceptual pieces with flashy playing and difficult time signatures here. I can well understand if this is a strategy to get those kohl-eyed nymphets in Indian-print blouses and tight jeans doing English A level into your patchouli-fragranced attic bedroom, but otherwise, well, it’s not exactly “The Gates of Delirium”, “Close to the Edge”, or “Supper’s Ready”, is it? You’ll be saying you like Roger Hodgson’s songs on the later Supertramp albums next.

      • You could have a point there Vincent. I’m not a macho progger by any means. In order of preference I’d choose:
        1. Not prog
        2. Girlie Prog
        3. Prog
        Although Turn Of The Century is a bit proper prog, innit? It’s got a protagonist called Roan and everything.

        Wikipedia reckons Hodgson wasn’t on the later Supertramp albums, you trickster you. Mind you, if he were I bet I’d like them more.

        This world was never meant for one as beautiful as you.

        • I will concur “Turn of the Century” is a bit more like it. I meant later Supertramp songs by Hodgson – “Give A Little Bit”, “babaji”, “take the long way home”, etc. Even “Fool’s orchestra” is a bit light, IMHO. (“School” was a corker though). Anyway, I know what your game was, you sly dog, and I bet you were like a rat up a pipe whilst heavy prog nerds wondered what it was that might enable one to meet the rumoured opposite sex, so more power to your (Hammond) organ. We would have benefited from your example.

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