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Womens Marches

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I mentioned in a previous blog entry how Trump had shot himself in the foot by dismissing his repulsive “pussy” comments as harmless “locker room” talk. For cryin out loud, he said, that was ages ago – when he was only 58! It was impossible, I thought, to disrespect women to that extent and still get to the White House. Yet here we are anyway with him all inaugurated and everything.

I am surprised at the success of the women’s marches, but what now?

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  3. The thing about Trump is, it doesn’t matter what anybody in the liberal/left wing/sensible/Washington Post/NYT world thinks, or says, he’ll just keep going.

    We have to get used to it,

    Unfortunately.

    You can’t criticise him with logic, facts or alternative public opinion, at least if it’s written down.

    It won’t have any effect, because he won’t listen, or see it.

    Hence the demonstrations.

    It’s going to take a long time…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DUqplxIcNk

  4. I think it’s all rather brilliant. Colossal turnout, and there have been some terrific signs (“Same shit, different century,” from three women dressed as suffragettes caught my eye). My daughter went on the London one :-). And Piers Morgan is bleating about feminists. Result all round.

    • My favourite was in Liverpool. A pastiche image of the Obama ‘Hope’ poster with an image o f Trump and ‘We Shall Over Comb’ written underneath. Witty poster slogans aren’t much consolation for the Trump presidency, but it’s a start.

            • The wit of the placards were just in a different league yesterday

              And no violence or arrests. No effigy burning, looting or knocking over dustbins in Shaftsbury Avenue. 100,000 thousand people of all creeds marched peacefully through London yesterday and made their stand.

              Camilla Long thinks this is middle class white girl virtue signalling and feminism as just a dress up game. Nice to see the elite looking after their own as ever

              View post on imgur.com

                  • I’d like us to have a symposium on who “the elite” actually are.

                    It doesn’t seem to be rich people, or powerful people, because the Royals are still popular. I wondered if it was maybe educated people, but Boris Johnson apparently isn’t part of the group, and his education is far more expensive (and therefore better) than my own. Maybe it’s the political elite? Men like Mike Pence, who’ve spent the last two decades in politics. Wait, that can’t be right either.

                    Maybe go back to the money thing, because the poor voted for Trump as part of their righteous howl of dispossessed rage. Except that households earning under $50,000 voted in the majority for Clinton. Maybe they’re part of the elite too – I do get confused…

                    • It’s anyone who puts their hand up and says they will take on responsibility for making decisions that affect us all. Anyone who gets the support of the majority of voters. Trump wasn’t the elite until Friday, now he is.

                    • But Camilla Long is apparently elite.

                      I think it means “person I disagree with who has an identifiably nicer quality of life than me”. Ideally your elite would be a posho but it can also mean prole who had the gall to make money or be prominent in some way.

                      So Boris and Farage aren’t elite to the UKIPpers cos they agree. They’re allowed to be wealthy and educated, they deserve it because they’ve got the correct opinions.

                      Camilla Long, to DFB, is elite despite having the exact same background and education as every lefty journo in the world because she’s got the wrong opinions.

          • Heard two young Ulster women on Sky News yesterday who attended the rally in London on the basis that Trump isn’t in favour of full reproductive rights. I’m gonna be a dick here and suggest that as abortion is outlawed in Northern Ireland, their energies might be better directed at lobbying their horror show representatives in the the Legislative Assembly. Act local and all that

            • Maybe their energies will go towards just that, in the immediate future.

              Why be a (self confessed) dick about it? Why not assume that their rage and their passion might roll on into the next, more local, fight?

              • Good point. I’m sure that a lot of those who attended the marches will feel more motivated and put their energy into fighting local fights.

                There’s a very good comment on this below by David Kendal. A march is a great morale booster but you need to get out there and get involved practically to change things.

                • Which do you think is the more likely scenario

                  a) women who attended the rally to protest against Trump’s views have never previously attended a rally or.spoken out on the issue; or
                  b) women who attended the rally have previously supported other campaigns, undertaken voluntary work, voted for or against a person because of their views etc.

                  I would like to think that I could campaign on two issues simultaneously and don’t see why these women shouldn’t do the same.

  5. The Women’s Marches have been brilliant, for several reasons.
    Firstly they clearly and visibly dwarfed the pitiful turnout in DC for Trump’s inaurguration ( despite the best efforts of his press secretary channelling Josef Goebells to suggest otherwise) but mostly as a monumental ‘f*ck you’ to Trump & his fellow reptiles who have malign designs on over 50% of the populations’ rights.
    These women aren’t housefraus who are going to allow anyone to portray them as a minority or as being in any kind of bubble – the clock is not going to be wound back on them & their place in the world.
    Just being there in vast numbers is not going to make the putrid mysoginists already enacting retrograde health and reproductive legislation against them suddenly see the error of their ways. Such events are however, extremely empowering for those who take part & who witness them via media. They demonstrate clearly that they are not alone or isoloated even if they come from places where they may feel like that. A collective sense of strength can boost the determined & nudge the hesitant to join the fray.
    If democracy is to have a future in the US, THESE are the people that will sustain it & take it forward. Hats off to them.

      • Goebbels is an apt analogy. How else would one characterise the brazenly lying mouthpiece of a brazenly racist arsehole?
        Goebells is attributed to have said that when lying, tell the biggest lie possible & then repeat it a thousand times until it’s accepted as truth. Sean Spicer has attempted just that & has been called out as a LIAR on day one of his job.
        Godwin’s Law applies when a Nazi analogy is obvious hyperbole. Unfortunately in this instance, it is not hyperbole.
        As for ‘masked thugs’, they didn’t seem to scare the hordes of demonstrators who included huge numbers of families with kids, so they can’t have been that terrifying can they?
        Very little trouble, very few arrests – not a chaotic situation at all really.

          • Sky? I’d trust local NBC over them (see upthread)

            That’s the news channel, after all, that said the entire Eastern seaboard had been decimated by a terrorist attack. Not just a city, mind you – the entire fucking seaboard. They’re a shower of bastards. Who work for Murdoch.

          • What have two Ulster women expressing a point of view that you find questionable (and I half agree with you) got to do with arrests? Millions of women marched peacefully round the world in pursuit of aims that don’t seem to resonate with you. I read somewhere, can’t track it down now, that there was not one single arrest at the Saturday marches anywhere in the US. That probably goes for the rest of the world. Where were these masked black-clad thugs?

  7. The problem is that Trump didn’t shoot himself in the foot by dismissing his misogyny. He created an opportunity to shoot him down which wasn’t taken. How much more effective would pre-election campaigning have been than this post-hoc complaining? If some of the 53% of white American women who voted for Trump had seen this kind of mobilisation last year, maybe they’d have had second thoughts. If more of the people marching yesterday had engaged potential Trump voters and explained their concerns, maybe they’d have changed the result. This could have been a victory march.

    • Impossible to know what any of the marchers yesterday thought or did pre-election, so that’s a hell of an assumption to make.
      The majority probably thought that the clear majority of US voters would not allow such a reptile to be elected. In that they were correct, given the popular vote.
      With refererence to the Electoral College – a system which prior to the election I naively assumed was constructed to be fair & representative – instead of being historically founded to ensure disproportionate clout for the previously slave owning southern states when ‘ negroes’ were deemed to be three fifths of a human – & where a vote cast in Michigan has 33 times the value of a vote cast in California(!)- there is compelling evidence that voter suppression using the ‘Crosscheck’ system heavily pushed by the most extreme hard right Republicans, successfully denied MILLIONS of registered voters their suffrage.
      For anybody interested, check out the history of Crosscheck – which appears to be targeted to ensure that as many black Americans DON’T vote as possible. It is not a ‘conspiracy’ but a systematic tactic which appears to have worked very well. The work of Greg Palast is especially illuminating on this, particularly ‘The Best Democracy Money Can Buy’. He makes a very strong case (with numbers to back it up) that the Jeb Bush ‘ hanging chad’ in Florida 2000 racket pales in comparison with what has just occured. Effectively it can be asserted that Trump doesn’t have the numbers & never did & that what we have seen is in democratic terms a coup de grace.
      It took a perfect storm to achieve it, a piss poor Democratic candidate whose was nonetheless ruthlessly vilified over months , a supine US media, Putin’s tinkering & FBI leaks of extraordinary timing, et voila, Trumps squeezes in & his motorcade drives past empty grandstands on his swearing in day.
      These marchers & their work are probably the best hope the US has right now.

      • I’m saying the women and men who marched yesterday were just as angry before the election as they are now. I don’t think that’s too much of an assumption to make.They said so, but only to their friends on Facebook who already agreed with them.

        • Can’t agree, Chiz.
          These are the people who *do* get off their arses & engage.
          I can’t see them as the problem, or even necessarily part of it. My take is that they were mortified to lose an election that they were understandably quietly confident of winning & now they are re-grouping & taking matters forward.
          If I was to allow myself a sliver of optimism, it’s that this may bolster many folks of all stripes to ‘get more stuck in’ at all levels, having seen what happens when you assume that progress is a struggle that once achieved can be taken for granted.
          😀

          • I had also assumed that in some parts of the US you might be hard pressed to find a neighbour to influence. Didn’t Trump get something like 4.5% support in Washington DC ? Presumably in other areas the numbers would have been reversed.

            • There’s plenty of ways to influence other than face to face – a huge turnout for a march is one, although it would have been better the horse had bolted. I hope Jim’s right and this is the start of more positive action. It would be a shame if anyone thinks they’ve achieved something significant by going for a walk in a funny hat.

              They have a lot to learn – carrying a sign calling Trump a bellend, nazi and cunt like the people in the photos above is more likely to reinforce the prejudices of his supporters than challenge them.

              My guess is it won’t be protest that brings Trump down anyway, it will be Trump.

              • Absolutely agree. What needs to happen is that the Dems get their act together and gain a majority in the next round of elections. Unfortunately there is more to activism than being furious on social media via a few photos. Can’t help to raise awareness though.

              • The best weapon against tyranny is humour. Why do you think all totalitarian regimes always go for the writers, the playwrights and the comedians. Because they have the freedom to pop the pomposity of the elite and point at their shitty undecrackers and laugh.

                Why did Trump call for NBC to cancel Saturday Night Live? Because they were taking the piss out of him.

                Trump’s supporters already think the people on the march yesterday are Libitards, Commies, any men there were gay, potheads, man hating dykes who wanted Hillary in to curb male privilege.

                Call a cunt a cunt, I say and don’t be found sneering smugly from the sidelines

                • I think they go for the writers etc because they make people think. That’s what tyrants are scared of. What is calling him a cunt supposed to create in the way of constructive debate and so change?

                • “Trump’s supporters already think the people on the march yesterday are Libitards, Commies, any men there were gay, potheads, man hating dykes who wanted Hillary in to curb male privilege.

                  You probably think you’re being funny here, but someone else might think it’s bigotry. How can it help to characterise the people you need to influence like this?

                    • Don’t get all sarky, it’s a genuine question. What are you trying to achieve with that statement? You know it’s not true, right?

                    • You never change, DFB, good at throwing abuse without any willingness to engage in an adult conversation.

                  • He’s right, sadly. That language is used by the right wingers I know on Facebook.

                    Not all of them; there are a ton of concerned, decent Republicans. But the ones who are fervently Trump – that’s the language they use.

                  • The placards calling Trump a c*nt don’t help anything, but their creators represent a small minority among the millions who marched over the weekend.

                    Part of the reason we appear to be stuck in the mud when it comes to political debate is that each side constantly addresses its arguments to the furthest extreme of the other. You may say that Trump won’t show us his tax returns, but where’s your moral high ground when there are Liberals on Twitter suggesting we should assassinate him/You may criticise people for making sweary banners, but what about the Alt-right?

                    In between the extremes are millions and millions of perfectly rational, sane people. Until those people find a way to talk without being dragged out to the margins, we’re not going to get anywhere.

                    Yes, some of the banners were unhelpful, and won’t win anyone over. But in any group of several million people, there will inevitably be a few hundred or even thousand who are unhelpful, and they’re invariably the ones who’ll make the papers. We should all resist the urge to characterise “the other side” based on those individuals.

                    Just a thought.

                    • That’s exactly what I’m driving at, but much better articulated as usual. It’s interesting to me that a prompt for ‘witty poster slogans’ produces pictures of the most antagonistic ones. (“Melania blink for help” was the best of the clever, witty ones I saw).

                      Not that there’s many Trump supporters here, of course, but what would they think of the protest if those images are the ones its supporters choose to share? If the aim is to persuade people to think and act differently, why start by pissing them off?

                • Always worth quoting Peter Cook on how much he admired “those wonderful Berlin cabarets which did so much to stop the rise of Hitler and prevent the outbreak of the second world war.”

                  I agree that it’s not worth sitting on the sidelines – but it’s the people setting up a stall outside the Co-op and explaining the lack of NHS funding, or becoming councillors and sorting out bin collections and broken down lifts who prove that politics can change things for the better. Not comedians preaching to the converted. I doubt if Stewart Lee, say, has challenged his audience any more than Bernard Manning challenged his.

  8. Protesting peacefully is exactly what people are meant to do when they think their leaders are a bunch of shitbags.

    Plus, if it upsets Piers Morgan you ought to be given a medal for it. The man’s a talking ball-bag.

  9. If anyone didn’t get to listen, Lionel Shriver’s interview with Robert McCrum yesterday on the radio 4 (7.00 – 7.15 slot) was very thoughtful and well argued. Well worth listening to if it’s on iplayer.

  11. Some wonderfully witty placards. Nice work DFB.

    Does Trump care a shit about it? Not a bit, in fact it probably appeals to his narcissism and enormous opinion of himself that so many are marching about him. And it is about him and not the Republican party and their policies. Few individual politicians in US history can have caused such a flood of discontent personally directed at them.

    Chiz is right in saying that the marches will do nothing to win over any of his supporters, in fact it will have the opposite effect. They’ll probably love him more. What may make them stop loving him is the gradual realisation that he can’t deliver on the promises he made. Fingers crossed there!

    But it was all clearly wonderfully empowering and a great deal of fun for those who took part. Result!

    • You’re probably wondering what Trump has to say about all this. Thanks to the magic of Twitter, I can tell you.

      “Watched protests yesterday but was under the impression that we just had an election! Why didn’t these people vote? Celebs hurt cause badly…[remembers he’s actually POTUS and supposed to be making America great again]…Peaceful protests are a hallmark of our democracy. Even if I don’t always agree, I recognize the rights of people to express their views.”

      Even Madonna, presumably, although according to the Daily Mail the Secret Service are planning to investigate her for threatening to blow up the White House.

  13. In case anyone finds this all a bit too depressing (for whatever reason), here’s the real highlight of the weekend – Rod Stewart doing the cup draw up in Scotland. Top man.

    • Scottish football is an exercise in futility. Marching against a monster who isn’t listening is probably futile. I’m cheered by the marginal difference, hope reigns eternal.

  14. Since the last Honours list William Grimshaw Secondary Modern in Muswell Hill has two old boys who have become knights of the realm in Sir Rod and Sir Ray Davies. From the same year as well. Beat that Eton!

  15. Political lobbying, delivering leaflets, canvassing, button-holing people in the street: not fun.

    Wrapping up warm, going on marches and yelling at the top of your lungs: awesome fun! You can even take the kids!

    • Door knocking, wearing rosettes, button-holing people in the street, giving out balloons and pamphlets. The very thought of doing this brings me out in hives. When I see it happen at election time I actively dislike the people that do it.

      If I joined a political party I am worried that this would be the first thing they would pressurise me to do.

      One of these people tried to give my kid a balloon and I very nearly snarled like a dog.

      • I joined a political party. The first thing they asked me to do was give them money (and continue to do so on a regular and tedious basis). Also they asked me to stuff leaflets through letter boxes. They do regularly ask what my priories are and what should happen to feed into their policy forum, too.

  16. My wife attended the march in Houston, along with 23,000 other women (not bad for a red state, albeit a more blue city). There was a unity there that will hopefully translate to more active involvement.
    If it engages people it has worked, no, it won’t kick Trump out and sway a lot of harmful GOP policies, but its a start.
    It was very clear from the march that the message was that this was one event but follow-up work needed to be done.

  18. I’ve wanted to contribute to this thread but hesitated because of some of the questions it raises for me? I know some have been addressed here but here goes…….

    The suffragette picture? Really? Does even Donald J have a plan to remove the vote for women? He narrowly beat a woman who would have been the first female president ever? From what I understand if every woman in the US had exercised her right to vote Hilary would have walked it. I would certainly love to ask the thousands that marched if they had exercised that right.

    Is it only women that are pissed with Trump? Is there going to be mens march? I assume not because we’re all lazy, feckless, thoughtless, rapists. I know It’s a bit Piers Morgan but it’s a point that needs making .

    Marching after the event. There was a great comment that had some of this action had taken place a month before the election there’s no doubt Trump would have lost. Maybe they believed those who kept saying “he can’t / won’t win”. Blame them not Trump.

    As a white, heterosexual, English, Christian man I have felt marginalised in recent times but I’ve been lucky with work and home life. Millions haven’t and voted for Trump for the very reasons those amazing women wanted equality years ago. Equality goes both ways and it would be wise not to forget it.

    Some of the signs were very clever, so clever, show us how clever you are with a sign and get 1000 likes on Facebook! Then discuss it at the next school mums meet when you look down your noses at the kid from the estate with the strange dad. Or call him a cunt, well done.

    Having said all that it’s great that it’s raised awareness and we all wait to see what happens next. I suspect Trump did see it and maybe under that perma tanned rhino skin something registered. Unfortunately it’s after that particular Rhino was voted out of the pound and is now free to run amok as he chooses.

      • Maybe marginalised was the wrong word. You may have seen this on another thread but it’s just as relevant here…

        Twang says
        20/01/2017 at 20:57
        Brendan O’Neill in the Speccy, which I read regularly and disagree with equally regularly but with that caveat it’s a fun summary of one perspective….

        It happened because you banned super-size sodas. And smoking in parks. And offensive ideas on campus. Because you branded people who oppose gay marriage ‘homophobic’, and people unsure about immigration ‘racist’.
        Because you treated owning a gun and never having eaten quinoa as signifiers of fascism. Because you thought correcting people’s attitudes was more important than finding them jobs. Because you turned ‘white man’ from a description into an insult. Because you used slurs like ‘denier’ and ‘dangerous’ against anyone who doesn’t share your eco-pieties.
        Because you treated dissent as hate speech and criticism of Obama as extremism. Because you talked more about gender-neutral toilets than about home repossessions. Because you beatified Caitlyn Jenner. Because you policed people’s language, rubbished their parenting skills, took the piss out of their beliefs.
        Because you cried when someone mocked the Koran but laughed when they mocked the Bible. Because you said criticising Islam is Islamophobia. Because you kept telling people, ‘You can’t think that, you can’t say that, you can’t do that.’
        Because you turned politics from something done by and for people to something done to them, for their own good. Because you treated people like trash. And people don’t like being treated like trash. Trump happened because of you.

          • Quite, @friar. I’ve never done any of those things, except probably “used slurs like ‘denier’ and ‘dangerous’ against anyone who doesn’t share [my] eco-pieties”. But I shall continue to do that, because such “slurs” are accurate. (Note “eco-pieties” by the way: the authentic voice of the smug rightist commentariat.)

            Other people did those things on my behalf…governments, legislators. (Except beatify Caitlyn Jenner.) Some things you agree with, some you don’t. I hate bloody quinoa. O’Neill, like all smarty-pants journos who have to knock out 1000 words to a deadline, is just farting in an echo-chamber, his target presumably being the “liberal elite” we’ve heard so much about, whoever the fuck they are. They aren’t me, which is why I’m feeling more than a little disenfranchised myself right now.

    • There’s no “men’s rights march” because men’s rights are absolutely central to how the world is run. You’re like those people who moan about Black History Month saying “when’s white history month” forgetting that the name we give white history is “history”.

        • Of course not but if you’re going to go around telling genuinely marginalised minorities that they can’t have marches, awards or celebrations of their history because they make you feel uncomfortable or marginalised yourself, be prepared for them not to react terribly politely.

          • In any world view western women are by no means marginalised any more than my incorrect use of the word to describe myself. Of course they can march, have awards as anyone can. They don’t make me feel uncomfortable but sometimes this place is such a one way street on these things that I just feel the need to put the opposite view. Whether we like it or not he won and women had the chance to vote for a woman and didn’t. The protests feel like an expression of anger at their own missed opportunity dressed up in funny outfits and signs

    • Just an observation, but you start out by calling out the hyperbole of the Suffragette picture, and then somehow within half a dozen paragraphs get yourself to this statement;

      “Millions haven’t and voted for Trump for the very reasons those amazing women wanted equality years ago.”

      Apparently those who marched (mainly women, mainly on a platform of womens’ rights) can’t be compared to Suffragettes, but those who voted for Trump can. Does not compute.

    • “Is it only women that are pissed with Trump? Is there going to be mens march? I assume not because we’re all lazy, feckless, thoughtless, rapists. I know It’s a bit Piers Morgan but it’s a point that needs making .”

      Well, men marched yesterday. And your statement does indeed make you sound like Piers. Here’s why women, as a demographic, marched.
      The President is a sexual predator – he got elected by people who thought that this fact alone wasn’t a big enough thing to stop him becoming President. Yeah, like sexual assault, man. No biggie. Why should women be stressed about the message THAT sends?

      “As a white, heterosexual, English, Christian man I have felt marginalised in recent times but I’ve been lucky with work and home life. Millions haven’t and voted for Trump for the very reasons those amazing women wanted equality years ago. Equality goes both ways and it would be wise not to forget it.”

      You’ve been marginalized? How, exactly? Been asked to stop foisting your views on others? A little upset that others groups who have been historically tro down are now getting some rights or attention?
      I can’t speak for Britain, but I can for America. White, Christian men are the most dominant force in America. To suggest otherwise is just bullshit, or people getting pissed that their white privilege isn’t quite what it should be.

      “Some of the signs were very clever, so clever, show us how clever you are with a sign and get 1000 likes on Facebook! Then discuss it at the next school mums meet when you look down your noses at the kid from the estate with the strange dad. Or call him a cunt, well done.”

      You know what dave – these people got off their asses and did something about something they feel strongly about. They didn’t do it because they wanted Facebook likes, they did it because they’re protesting about their concerns for the future. What they didn’t do it for was the approval of some supercilious white male heterosexual Christian.

  19. So I reflected on that post a bit

    One reason I missed for the women marching was that I think they’re a bit pissed off about told what they can and can’t do with their internal organs by a bunch of predominantly white “Christian” men, of whom Trump seems to be the worst right now.

    Then I thought about the tone of my message and whether or not I should have dialed it back a bit. And i came to the conclusion “no”. One of the reasons we got here is because people were not prepared to call bullshit when it was said, or written, or tweeted. No-one called, seriously, trump on his lies and abhorrent policy positions. A lot of people thought that his racism, his misogyny, his lies, his sexual predation were not worthy of being called out loud and often, and weren’t enough to disqualify him from the highest position in the land.
    No-one seriously sat down Corey Lewandowski and called him out on his lies and alt-right positions. People equivocated on calling out Trump senior advisors for their alt-right positions, their misogyny, their lies.
    No-one really looked hard them, and too many people sat silent. I may very well have ben one of them.

    Well, I decided enough is enough. He’s already set about destroying the faith in mission that my fiancee, a career officer has. He’s doing that in other places. He’s started to destroy healthcare. He’s decided that any organization that offers abortion or abortion advice – even if funded by their own money – abroad won’t get federal dollars. I’m going to call out bullshit when I hear it or read. You have a right to your opinion. You don’t have a right to not have BS called out.

    Sorry Dave. This Some of the signs were very clever, so clever, show us how clever you are with a sign and get 1000 likes on Facebook! Then discuss it at the next school mums meet when you look down your noses at the kid from the estate with the strange dad. Or call him a cunt, well done.” was what pit me over the edge. Well, that and your pityBS as a marginalized Christian. I know a lot of people who went on that march, and none of them did it for that reason, and none of them call that kid a “cunt”. Most of them actually spend a lot of time volunteering to help that kid. I do.

    Why don’t you take your self pitying arrogance and shove it with the rest of the pro Trump bleaters?

    • Did anyone else think when Si said “So I reflected on that post a bit” he was going to be more conciliatory to Dave?

      I don’t agree with much Mr Amitri says here, but I think the Facebook point is quite valid. Millions of people posted photos of themselves marching – and well done them for getting out – but very few I think offered some sort of positive call to arms to their friends. For example: “Please write to your (male, Republican) congressman and ask him to publicly distance himself from the President’s views on pussy grabbing.” Marches raise awareness, but what comes next makes all the difference. Insulting the people you need to persuade just takes you back to square one.

      All Republican Presidents since Reagan have cancelled funding of international abortion services, presumably because it’s a tremendously popular move with the people who elected them.

      • Agree. Dave is completely entitled to express an opinion, and he’s done so (as ever) politely and with a willingness to exchange views. He’s not Corey Lewandowski – this is a music blog where folk chat shit to pass the time, not the floor of the Senate. Upbraiding people isn’t some sort of moral imperative. I also don’t believe Trump happened because people weren’t calling stuff out on Twitter. As far as I can make out, that’s about 95% of what people do on Twitter (the other 5% being pun games).

        The abortion services piece has been a political football for nearly three decades – it’s even become tradition to make the decision on the same date; 22 January, the anniversary of Roe v Wade. Not everything Trump does is automatically evil.

    • Thanks Si, makes my gentle shit stirring all the more worthwhile. There are always 2 sides to every story and my self pitying arrogance (really?) and I are more than comfortable taking the B-Side when necessary to get self aggrandising whingers down off their pedestal for a second a take a look in the mirror. Yu choose to ignore the fact that I have stated on many occasions Trump is a dreadful man, truly awful but he won and unless the likes of you and the women on that march start to ask themselves why then his win becomes even more horrifying. Get you’re comfortable head out of your arse and look around you and ask why half of your nation voted for a racist, misogynist, truly arrogant, probably crooked bully boy as PRESIDENT!!!

      • You haven’t answered why you’ve felt marginalized in any kind of coherent fashion.

        To address some of the points above, in no particular order:

        Yes, a lot of the marchers I know DID do something other than just walk. Many of them were getting in touch with their Senators and Congressmen/women earlier to lodge protests.

        “Self aggrandizing whingers” – yes, I’m sticking with self pitying arrogance. You don’t think they should be protesting? Just shut up and take it? Bullshit. Political activism and protest is at the heart of what being American is about. Shit. Let me guess. You don’t think women should have autonomy over their bodies? Or that people with medical conditions shouldn’t be worried about not being able to get insured. They were marching for people like me. Right now my medex, including rxs comes to an average of about $250 a month. Under the ACA plans, with the dismissal of pre existing condition coverage, that number is going to get into the low 4 figures. Can I just check if it’s OK to get a bit miffed about that, or whether that’s whinging? I get a bit lost in your purported moral compass.

        The fact that the GOP routinely do this with abortion issues doesn’t make it right – it makes it an even more compelling reason to protest.

        And (no doubt not) lastly – you admitted to gentle shit stirring. Shit stirring using polite words and phraseology doesn’t make it any less shitty. You do that, you deserve to get called out for it. White male Christian feeling marginalized? If we don’t challenge spurious crap like, it gets traction.

        Edited to add:
        Here’s a list of conditions that insurers will no longer have to cover if the reforms go through. This just passed the House.
        https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C257IoHXUAA3eHV.jpg:large

        • Ok, this obviously means much more to you than it does me. I did admit that using marginalised was probably the wrong word and it was said for effect. Trying to get into the minds of the millions of men and women that did vote for Trump. Why would anyone actually vote for that man is a question to be fair you have avoided but he’s not my president he’s yours. I can’t comment on the health care issues as my knowledge of these things is limited as it would appear to be on most issues US wise. I apologise for any offence caused but I won’t apologise for raising an opposite view. I love the Afterword and all the people on it but just sometimes it risks disappearing up it’s cleverness and insularity (if that’s the right word) . This has been a tough but enlightening conversation that has raised real points to think about that would come about if I’d just posted another “Yeah he’s a cunt let’s show another funny poster”. I try and stretch the point within the realms of sensibility and if I do offend it’s not intentional. I would love a sensible dialogue with someone with your background about how it was he even got close to winning.

          To finish, my company was brought by a huge US company from St Louis. About 6 months ago the head honchos were over and I asked what they thought about Trump and could he win. I was ridiculed and informed in all certainty that he couldn’t possibly win. I haven’t seen either of these gentlemen since to discuss any further…….

          • I suppose my thing is that regardless of how much your “way of life” is threatened or ignored or reviled by the “elites” there is still no excuse for completely abandoning any semblance of human decency. And abandoning even a pretence at decency is exactly what a Trump voter is doing.

          • Actually, I answered it at length in another thread about Trump, so no, I didn’t duck it.

            With the greatest of respect, if this is true “I can’t comment on the health care issues as my knowledge of these things is limited as it would appear to be on most issues US wise.” then perhaps not opining in the way that you did might be in order?

            • ETA: Here is my post on how this came to be:”There will be books written about this topic. Scholarly tomes, with footnotes and references. Let’s beat them to it.

              It’s complex. I can’t speak much for the UK, having been an external observer these last 16 years, but let me give you my view of the USA.

              My usual caveat, that it’s really difficult to talk about the USA as a single entity, applies.

              I don’t think the last 8 – hell, longer – years were that rosy, and politics has been on a downward spiral here since Gingrich decided to try to get rid of Clinton, Bill. The divisive nature of the beast was exposed, and the divisions widened and deepened.

              Then Bush II happened, and the shit really hit the fan. The nature of the election. The wars. The Patriot Act. It all started to get nasty – anyone who opposed what was going on was called a traitor, or unpatriotic. Reasoned, and principled, discussion was killed. It was during those years that I became increasingly aware that nothing was being done for people. Companies were ostensibly benefiting; the rich were. But Joe Average…. not so much.

              Then 2008. Oh boy, 2008. Much of what Salwarpe wrote ^^ is right. The recovery and the aftermath, though… I think that’s where large tranches of the population really became disenchanted to the point of disenfranchising themselves.

              After the disaster, no-one really paid the price for it People were losing jobs, homes, going bankrupt. Next door neighbors, people you knew. All the “ordinary” folk were getting hammered, and no-one was responsible.

              The recovery… stocks are up, unemployment is down, but wages have more or less stagnated. It isn’t a feelgood recovery. There is increasing pressure across every workforce to accomplish more, with less, for no increased reward. The American dream seems to be less of a dream and more of a waking nightmare for many people. And the majority of the US population hasn’t experienced anything like this. So, there’s resentment.

              With Obama, a shiny veneer was put over the racism that is inherent at every level of US society. “Hey, we gots a black President. America is healed!”. Except….there’s a lot of white people looking at America and getting pissed off. Hey, more civil rights for the AA community! Black Lives Matter terrorists! Damn Hispanic illegals… all leads to the question: who’s looking out for me?!

              Oldest trick in the political book, just about. Trump knew that if he got the GOP nomination, and certain amount of the population was locked in. If he could pull in the disaffected masses, he knew he would be competitive. And the disaffected masses rose up, because he gave them permission to. Every “ist” or “ism” got permission to be demonstrated; where was the signal that those beliefs were repugnant? Right there, front and center, running for President, was a man who embodied all of them.

              How did he get elected? Well, for a start, I don’t think anyone’s modeling took account of all those factors. I think the best summary I saw was that HRC executed against the playbook brilliantly. It’s just that the right playbook hadn’t actually been written. Throw in the Comey thing, and we end up with President Tango Shitgibbon.

              That, at least, is the view from the fairly comfortable middle class America seats.”

  20. I genuinely remember Ena Sharples from Coronation Street saying – “(eeh) you attract more bees with honey”. Which is rubbish really because bees aren’t attracted to honey – but the point I’d make is that the women’s marches were remarkable in that were highly charged politically but they had the appearance of relaxed fun/smiles/funny signs/children and costumes.

    If people haven’t quite got their head together yet about what’s going on, aren’t they more likely to side with the friendly ones? In my life, I haven’t yet seen anyone’s politics change after being shouted at or insulted.

  22. Interesting thread. My observation: Women can vote for HC and/or campaign for reproductive rights AND and go on the March because women multitask. That’s why my wife can wash up and make my tea at the VERY SAME TIME..

    But Revolutionary Communist (LOL) troll, Brendan O’Neill and Piers (“Never mind his dying wife, what’s the goss?”) Morgan are arse wipes aren’t they?

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