Inspired by the recent Sparkle in the Rain thread, I thought I’d start a thread in which people can vent on the subject of when bands they liked completely and irretrievably lost “it”. For example you may feel Fisherman’s Blues was when the Waterboys crossed the line or, like my brother, the Cure smiling in the Lovecats video was the final straw. When Roddy met Knopfler is another watershed.
Over the years I have given more thought to exactly when Simple Minds lost it than any other band. They’re not my favourite band by any stretch and for years, like a poster on the other thread, I thought it was as simple as getting rid of the genius-of-bass Derek Forbes. I felt this was compounded by the pursuit of the American market through the awful likes of Don’t You Forget About Me and allowing producers/writers to influence their vision (Keith Forsey, I think…) Key to this was the inclusion of actual piano sounds as opposed to the wonderfully abstract keyboard sounds of their previous albums…
Anyway, having dwelt on this matter too long and too often, I have come up with the notion that it was on the track Up On the Catwalk at the precise moment that Jim mentions Nastassja Kinski, presumably in an understandable attempt to register on her radar, that Simple Minds lost it, for it never to return again. Until that point, they operated in the abstract – Theme for Great Cities was exactly that, not London Calling. Nothing they did really referred to the real world (ignoring Konstantinople and Chelsea Girl…okay) that the rest of us occupied and that was the appeal. As soon as a real life person was referenced, the bubble had burst…never to be unburst. I rest my case. Feel free to agree or disagree or share your own pet theory regarding the demise of a previously loved act…
New Order is a tricky one. In some ways World in Motion was the moment they turned a corner but I was a decent song and there was something very mischevious and very ‘Factory’ about the way they approached the whole thing. Republic was a weak record, and having loved and obsessed over Peter Saville’s designs I truly loathed his graphics for this and the singles – but it had Regret on it which is a great record. A lot of the magic left when Gillian was replaced by Phil Cunningham who brough too much musicianship in.
For me, I can pinpoint when it was. Rewind to Republic, and the second single ‘Ruined in a A Day’. Not a bad song (although I find it a bit of a plodder) – but that was the first time since becoming a fan in 1986 that I hadn’t rushed down to the record shop on release date to get the new single. I didn’t care any more.
Yes, this is my problem with ‘Republic’: I was finding NO to be a bit by-the-numbers on this album but ‘Regret’ is such great, great single that it just about salvages it.
And weirdly I love the later ‘Crystal’ which I probably shouldn’t, given that ‘Get Ready’ is a bit…inessential.
I was listening to Get Ready and completely agree. A very precise point where their mojo left, never to return. Republic is not their best album, perhaps Brotherhood rather than Low Life or Power, Corruption… but the end of Crystal is precisely the point at which they cease to produce anything that would grab a casual listener and demand a listen. The rest of that album, ok, Sirens…meh, Lost Sirens…ok…but strictly for the initiated.
Republic was their first album post-Factory.
Coincidence?
Not a coincidence. It’s also around this time I think that their manager Rob Gretton had some health issues and had to take a bit of a back seat – very much a 5th member of the band (he chipped in with lyrics, song titles and was the driving force behind the whole anti-image thing, playing live on TOTP, not giving interviews etc -i.e all the things that made N.O. seem cool and aloof) – I suspect he was also lukewarm water between Fire on Bass and Ice on Vocals. They seemed to flounder without his guidance. It also suffers from an overly fussy production from Stephen Hague who buried Hooky’s bass in the mix and made it all sound far to slick and polished – no more two fingered keyboard riffs, off-key vocals and malfunctioning beat boxes.
Completely agree too. Crystal is a great track but I’m not sure I could name anything else of that album. Almost ditto for Republic. Regret is top but the rest….yuk…turgid. I’ve tried to like Sirens and Lost Sirens but no thanks. Such a shame.
Technique was the one for me. Or Lowlife. Or Brotherhood.
Monetary success,or,the impending notion of it, is what turns otherwise noble artistic integrity down the shit hole. ‘Simple Minds’ Is THE classic example of it In British Band terms.
As far as ‘New Order’ go,for me It is anything past “Everything’s Gone Green”.
Ooh! Get Polly Popcharts with her Everything’s Gone Green. Probably bought it in Woolworths with a record token from her Mum cos she liked the cover.
New Order were dead to me the moment they started writing and recording music. The Perfect Kiss was the kiss of silence. A moment of pure tranquil bliss before the postulating cold sore of actual music disfigured those perfectkisslips.
Everything’s Gone Green? I went off them before that. No – before that!
Sometimes bands would lose momentum. You look at the discography and notice that there was a gap year, and then when they came back the hair was cut and the trousers were straight and they’d just lost it.
Alice Cooper didn’t release an album in 1979. He came back in 1980 with a new look (Alice Cooper ’80) and new album “Flush the Fashion”. It was a statement of intent, and that intent was apparently to spend the 1980s selling a fraction of the records that he sold in the 1970s.
Oh you’ve got green eyes oh you’ve got brown eyes… But Sewer Robot has Red Eyes.
For me no one fell from grace more spectacularly and more sadly than Rod Stewart.
After that run of magnificent albums Smiler was a disappointment but dear God – Atlantic Crossing !
Hello Britt, bye Rod.
Rainbow’s fall from grace is pretty easy to pinpoint. It came in the form of Graham Bonnet, Hawaiian shirts and chart success. Their fourth studio album should have been (Black Sabbath’s) Heaven & Hell.
You could put it another way and say that it was Ronnie James Dio leaving. When he left Sabbath a few years later they fell from grace pretty quickly as well.
*shudders at the thought of Ian Gillan and Born Again*
Stevie Wonder’s career had been resistant to so many challenges. He went from being a child star to an adult singer-songwriter. He even survived making a concept album about plants. But nobody, I mean nobody, could make a record with Paul McCartney in the 80s and emerge unscathed. Look upon ye mighty and despair.
I hadn’t read this when I plonked Mr W on mini’s thread about people who lost it in the 80s.
And aren’t Macca’s Jacko collaborations so lifeless?
If you turn up the volume loud enough on the 2008 CD remaster, when Michael sings “I’m a lover not a fighter” you can actually hear Paul’s eyeballs roll.
Re the OP I agree on seldom have a band seemingly thrown away a musical direction so rich and special to chase the market. Interestingly Sparkle…did no better in the UK or US charts than New Gold Dream. It was that bloody Breakfast Club song that made them big in the US for an album
The moment Simple Minds lost it was, in retrospect, Alive and Kicking. The song was the opening single from an album of anthems and sustained euphoria – the subtlety had now gone. Even Don’t You…had a smooth chimey feel to it and kept something back.
Alive and Kicking and the rest of Once Upon a Time is a bit like well-lit open air, functional pornography. It’s all there, but it’s not stylish or sexy.
Also Minds nerds the 12″ of Don’t You Forget About Me had the great instrumental A Brass Band In African Chimes that showed they still could deliver restraint and mystery even at that point.
@black-celebration
That’s a fantastic description of Once upon a time!
And yet I have a soft spot for it. Probably play it, ooh, once every 15 years.
Thanks @freddy-steady. I had forgotten about that and I like the description too!
8 years have passed and I played it not so long ago and really enjoyed it. I had recently seen the All the Things She Said video by chance and got back to it. You have to be in the right headspace for bombastic ‘Minds. And the cringe-o-meter on the wall abruptly snaps into life on a few occasions. For example:
“you talk about South Africa…
I tell you about the Irish children”.
Oh Jim, purlease!
I remember an interview with Morrissey after Meat Is Murder. He said that he had made his lyrics from little notebooks that he had kept since he was young. He also said that he had used up this well and that he had to think of another way to write his lyrics. After this he came up with titles like Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others and Shoplifters Of The World Unite and the lyrics were different. I won’t say that The Smiths jumped the shark there, but (dramatic intonation) something was lost.
At what point did Did Bowie lose it? History seems to give Let’s Dance (the song) the thumbs up, but I was not a fan. The look, the clean and expensive-sounding production. China Girl then came (and that is a cracker of a song) but then came Modern Love. Modern Love is not as wretched as God Only Knows but it’s not good and think it was the moment where Bowie went for the commercial jugular. He still had great moments, but he couldn’t be relied as much as before. I think he came back properly with Heathen.
He was skint after 10 years of critical acclaim, artistic genius and venal management. I’m giving him a pass 🙂
I remember being at an SU in Manchester and wondering why they were playing Elton John. They weren’t – it was Modern Love. He’d lost it.
UB40.
Can pinpoint the exact point they lost the plot.
When Red Red Wine hit the top spot in 1983.
Until that point they were a phenomenal band. Truly inventive, the first real (Ken Boothe etc just not in the same league) home grown hard core. reggae band.
Brilliantly politicised lyrics and absolutely nailed the Handsworth via Kingston sound.
The early run of albums, Signing Off, Present Arms, In Dub and UB44 were and remain, vital vital records that still stand up.
And then Red Red Wine and the 29 singles off of Labour of Love and it’s horrific siblings bringing ever diminishing returns whilst the noses remained in the trough.
Inspiration and originality forever dulled and life sucked out by chasing a pound.
I likened UB40 to John Prescott. Great ideas, good early stuff but once exposed to the canapés and cash, the principles and innovation disappeared.
I’d pretty much agree with that, except I’d say Steel Pulse were the first real home grown hard core reggae band. 1978’s Handsworth Revolution is a corker of an album, very different to but every bit as good as 1980’s Signing Off.
Yes, of course – Steel Pulse, Black Uhuru, even early Aswad….
Been off the radar so long, slipped my memory completely.
Yes, and Matumbi and Misty in Roots and the Cimarons.
Indeed, the Cimarons have a decent shout for being the UK’s first proper reggae band.
Genesis
For a lover of old school Genesis the moment we parted company was not following Peter Gabriel’s departure. A Trick of the Tail is a fine album – a wee bit soppy in parts maybe, but lovely too. Wind and Wuthering similarly, albeit Steve Hackett was being sidelined somewhat by this stage. The real changes started with Duke though there are great moments here too (the CD mastering is terrible). It was with Abacab that they lost me completely.
Surprised we haven’t yet discussed the third of the ‘Most Likely To Make It Massive’ from the post-punk explosion – Echo and the Bunnymen, after U2 and Simple Minds. A very clear point where they lost it. After wondering why their first three albums had garnered great reviews and a very big UK and Scandinavian following but done diddly squat in the USA while Duran, Spands etc cleaned up they threw EVERYTHING at Ocean Rain. Not my favourite of theirs (Heaven Up Here surely) but so clearly a creative peak. Pete De Freitas left, McCulloch started a solo career and the game was surely up. ‘Echo and the Bunnymen’ took 3 years to emerge and was the sound of a band without a clear direction – other than trying a glossier sound for the US market.
For me, EatB were a passion, they were one of ‘my’ bands. Then Ocean Rain came out with all its attendant bluster from Mac the Lip – The Greatest Album Ever Made.
It wasn’t.
In fact for an obsessive like me, it was devoid of (i)Bunnyness(/i): that sparse, a bit weird and disjointed darkness. I still love them for their first three epic albums and some stunning b-sides but the magic that was EatB is long gone.
I really wish they’d retire.
Definitely not The Greatest Album Ever Made, not even The Greatest Bunnymen Album Ever Made. Great singles (though why leave Never Stop off – the great lost Bunnymen track), an OTT ballad title track and some right old filler – Thorn of Crowns for example. They’ve now released more albums after splitting than before.
Not music, but…Ben Elton: discuss.
Nah. Ben Elton’s like the Stereophonics – one good early album (The Young Ones), one half decent one (Blackadder 2) and the rest, utter, utter self serving, self important tosh. This includes ALL his books. Without any single exception.
Parliament/Funkadelic
12 years of sporadic genius, the last proper Funkadelic album in 1982 The Electric Spanking Of War Babies was ace – and just as the world was finally catching up with them they imploded. Parliament had thrived when it was kicking against disco, but by the turn of the 80s Quincy Jones was making disco records that sounded a bit like Parliament and it seemed like their mission had been accomplished. Various configurations have toured and recorded as one or both since but it never convinces.
Iron Maiden.
Things started to go awry when Adrian Smith left 1989/90.
“No Prayer For The Dying” was alright, but not really on a par with previous releases.
The rolled on for another album (“Fear Of The Dark”, and then things took a definite downswing when Bruce Dickinson left.
“The Blaze Years” are best consigned to history.
However, they probably realised the error (or lack of income?) when both Dickinson & Smith re-joined in 1999.
“Brave New World” is up there with some of their best, “Dance of Death” and “A Matter of Life and Death” continued their re-invogaration, and 2010’s “The Final Frontier” proved (at least to me) they’ve got “it” back.
New album due 4th September
(which could be a busy day considering new PiL & Libertines releases also come out that day)
Anyone think that the Jim Kerr frozen in the OP, looks startlingly like Joanne Catherall after a few spritzers? ( with due apologies to Joanne if she’s listening).
What’s the deal with the red leather jacket Jim?
Slade
The fall from grace seems to coincide with the release of Slade In Flame.
Some strange celluloid curse must’ve beset them.
That and wanting to break the US (they never did).
They re-located to the US in 1975, and in doing so lost both their audience and Polydor contract (final single was called ‘Lets Call It Quits’ – oh, how prophetic.
When they did return in 1977, the only deal they could get was with their Managers label Barn (soon to be Cheapskate, part owned by Jim Lea), and the audience was no longer there meaning club tours was the best they could get.
Shame really, because Slade were probably one of the few “old” bands that would’ve been accepted by the Punk audience.
Fortunes turned up after storming performance at Reading Festival in 1980, and they returned to the Top 10 in 1982 with “My Oh My”, and finally broke the US in 1983 with “Run Runaway”.
But after this, it was probably the umpteenth re-release of “Merry Christmas Everybody” and “Crackers – The Slade Christmas Party Album” which scuppered any chance of being taken so seriously again.
Last release was in 1991, and in 1992 the band disintegrated.
Oddly, the Vic & Bob piss-take (Slade in Residence, Slade On Holiday) restored them to the nations consience as having more about them than that one bloody song.
If they’d have reformed then, the first thing they should’ve done was a Cup-a-Soup advert
Noddy has said that they took a year out to make Flame and it killed their career. I was at Donnington in 81, cold and miserable when they came on and turned the audience around. Bloody brilliant.
In Flame was a fall from grace commercially, but it’s a really good album. It’s got How Does it Feel? and Far Far Away on it, and I really like Them Kinda Monkeys Can’t Swing., it sounds like parkas and beetlecrushers.
This. ⬆️. Noddy might be right about what it did to them commercially – but it’s a great album nonetheless.
Status Quo – late 1981, John Coghlan leaves (sacked?)
Deep Purple circa Come Taste The Band when Blackmore departed to be replaced by Tommy Bolin.
Even when Richie returned they never quite recaptured the old magic, although Perfect Strangers has its moments.
When Slade failed to crack the USA & before they did reading festival in 1980, they released a version of “The Okey Cokey”
I speak as a lifelong fan of Slade, but that record is/was appalling. Complete & utter shite.
Pino Floyd lost it with Dark Side Of The Moon
OOAA