I voted Remain. I know a lot of people who voted Leave. A lot of them are, on the whole, nice people. I’m sure there are posters on here who voted Leave who are the same.
So…if Brexit never happens (and it may well not) and we never actually leave, what do you think will happen? I still think it makes sense to stay in, as the EU can be problematic, but the solution to the problem is worse than the problem.
Ok, we never leave. What happens…
-politically in the UK?
-in the EU?
-to UK democracy in future?
-to the far right? The left?
-to already disillusioned voters?
-to mainstream parties?
Let’s keep this civil!
Really have no idea what to say re your question given that there is not one single person (including all of the main protagonists) who has a clue what’s going to happen tomorrow, next week or after October 31st.
Oh ok, I’ll give it a go. Liars will continue to lie whilst the most important thing facing us right now ie climate change will be ignored until it’s (almost) too late
….and on Friday morning Tigger will tell us at length that Abbey Road isn’t so bad after all.
*swiftly adjusts notes*
Tigger has notes?
Let us hope – for his sake – that he hasn’t been studying pataphysical science in the home …
Bang bang!
Am I alone in thinking there are too many political threads here?
And no-one has brought up Trump and impeachment. Yet.
Yet. I do wonder if this might be the ‘thing’
Two and a half years of unrelenting malfeasance and venal incompetence have led him to thinking that blathering away about favours on an open call is normal and of no risk to him.
His blinkered uninformed blundering may now have triggered a man trap surrounded by Democrats in full battle tattoos and carrying spears. .
We shall see. If it does indeed be the thang then he’ll fall and fall quickly. As in a few days. Events and circumstance may barrel at him at some pace. given that all the past grievances are still spinning in neutral just waiting for the lights to change.
He knows in his core, I think, he’s a nowhere man of no stature or ability. He can’t argue and debate his way out of a full impeachment. He’ll resign. And run. I do think at some point in his future a private Lear Jet will make a midnight take off to a far flung sanctuary thousands of miles from any federal prison.
But, it’s likely not the ‘thing’ after all.
On the face of it, it’s a slam dunk. He withholds $400million, talks about how the USA have been more than generous and are willing to be more generous but he needs a favour. The most damning word in the transcript is ‘though’ that links those two issues. It’s amazing the White House think the transcript exonerates him!
It is possible everything could unravel quickly. The key issue is the money, Trump’s taxes and his bank accounts. It is likely to take some time, methinks.
What’s the big deal?
Clinton was successfully impeached and just said “fuck you” and carried on.
DT wouldn’t leave office voluntarily even if 100% of votes cast in next year’s election went against him. He’s President, doing whatever he wants, for exactly as long as he wants to be, and don’t fool yourselves.
Exactly how I see it.
Personally I would like to see him win the popular vote but lose the electoral college.
Watch the toys come out of the pram if that were to happen!
Clinton was successfully impeached? No he wasn’t. The charges were passed by the House and submitted to the Senate for trial. A two-thirds majority in the Senate trial is necessary for a successful impeachment, and neither charge achieved even a simple majority for a guilty verdict.
Personally, I welcome all threads. No such thing as too many of any type.
I thought this blog was (at least initially) supposed to be generally about things that could have been covered in The Word magazine. Music, films, books, audio technology, nostalgia etc. I must have missed all the politics in the magazine. Am sure there are other places to debate Brexit, probably about a million other places, but I guess some want to do it here.
You have my sympathies @dai. I think it’s because it’s a more civilised discussion here (generally) than elsewhere where trolls roam.
This.
I know what you mean, Dai. I just don’t read or post the ones I’m not interested in (Gong, for instance).
But I feel like I know you all, even though I’ve only met a handful in Meat World. I feel safe to post here in a way I would not on FB. And the kind of abuse I’ve seen elsewhere puts me off Twitter altogether…
In the last day or two we have had 6 threads started about Brexit (or related to it), it tends to take over, maybe put everything in one thread or we need a special section devoted to politics?
It is unfortunate that several parallel threads appeared, pretty much simultaneously, about a certain legal verdict.
I quite enjoy a bit of political cut ‘n’ thrust here in our civilised space. There is no way I would engage with politics on Twitter. That way madness lies. Also some self-training is in progress regarding my FB presence. More and more I just can’t be arsed to comment on political threads there anyway, but when temptation strikes I’m sometimes able to just move on instead. It’s a work in progress.
Good point by fentonsteve. The fact that we “know” each other here means that we react in another way than we would elsewhere.
If Lodey or Locust start a thread about honey- making here , I will give it far more attention than I would to a similar article in Modern Jazz News. (I just met a chatty, gay beekeeper in the laundry room and chatted about Brexit, Downtown Abbey and the loneliness of modern society).
Good of you to specify his sexual orientation, KFD. An important detail to know, where beekeepers are concerned.
Fair comment, Gary. Totally irrelevant.
Fascinating bloke anyway. He was telling me about his job. He helps people who feel isolated for various reasons to get out and about and do things. Some of them suffer from blindness or other disabilities, others are older people who now live alone.
The Swedish welfare state at its best.
I just assumed he meant happy. Why wouldn’t a beekeeper be happy? All that honey and a cool hat.
But there’s a sting in the tail. Barbed an’ all. Africanised bees will show no mercy if they’ve got the hump. And they are easily irritated by small things. ELP, for instance.
Welcome back my friends to the hive that never ends.
I have never thought this place was meant to reflect Word magazine.
My recollection and perception was that it was set up as a home for those displaced by the demise of the old site.
That’s a site, as is noted elsewhere, that was notable for the general levels of respect shown by contributors to each other (though it had a few notable spats) on a massive range of topics.
There were certainly political threads there.
Musings On The Byways Of Popular Culture sounds to me like a net that can catch many things, including politics.
And geography, food, driving, parenting, jobs and more.
and stationery. And biscuits
Geography! I love ox-bow lakes.
Mmmm. Sedimentation.
Would you like to come and see my map collection?
Seriously. It’s huge.
Oh, you’ll have done like me and bought some of those 1:1 maps. They’re a bugger to fold up.
Sounds swell!
Hey, mine too!
@thecheshirecat
My geography report at school said ‘Lucky if he finds his way home!’
I guess I don’t associate “culture” with the current political situation. Some threads here are just started as rants (not this one), that may be better served on social media.
Who’s to decide though? No one’s in charge. You’d have to have a vote or something then it just gets tedious and nitpicking navel gazing. Not that any of us have nits in our navels as far as I am aware. Seems pointless moaning about content when it can’t really be controlled. If you use updates to follow new posts, everything appears there anyway regardless of what section it came from. All the politics is due to all the turmoil these days. When we used to have less everything was calmer and more stable. It’s only natural.
Yes, some truth in that. I just think posting some knee jerk response to something you have just read on the internet or heard on the news is not really what this place is for. Do it on facebook or twitter or whatever.
Some threads in the past have also got close to personal abuse. Many might consider this place to be an island away from the petty, tedious things we have to deal with in normal life.
Actually, I don’t think we need to concentrate completely on music etc here, and I do respect people’s opinions on other perhaps more personal matters. I have posted personal things in the past and got a lot of support. Will leave it at that.
Did someone say they wanted a vote? I can organise that! Wait… come back…
If….
We need to recognise the concerns of those who voted leave and address them – some are substantive (not sharing the economic benefits etc), – so this should rightly be dealt with, then some are ignorance (“they” do this, “they” do that) where a generally more positive message about the EU would help together with factual rebuttals.
The press is a problem of course, they will continue to fan disquiet and tell lies – the best way of dealing with this is probably to ensure people’s real life experience doesn’t accord with the crap they spew out. And if people cease to be interested maybe they will lie about something else.
But…but…I fear it will never end. And why anyone thinks the huge number of people who want to be in the EU will obligingly shut up is another question. “The will of the people” from such a flawed campaign doesn’t move me nor, I suspect, does it move many other remainers. God I’m depressed.
TBH after the result was announced I though, OK, that was the result, let’s get on with it – but the longer it drags on the more I think it should be stopped all together as it’s clear no form of Brexit will satisfy everyone and there doesn’t seem to be an acceptable compromise which doesn’t leave us worse off than being in (a CU/SM arrangement, for example – all the downsides, no say in rules etc).
The sun will rise, the sun will fall…
In very simplified terms, it’s turned out to be a bit of a battle between what’s best for democracy vs what’s best for the economy. Given the amount of people who have died or changed their minds, plus the rather notional nature of democracy as opposed to the more concrete nature of economy, I suspect the damage to democracy caused by remaining would be less, and heal sooner, than the damage to the economy caused by leaving.
Thanks for the opinions so far. I have always associated this site with non-ranty and nuanced opinion, and I am genuinely interested in what you all think.
I do agree that a single Brexit-related thread might be a better idea! If the mods want to delete this and conflate them all together, then it’s fine with me.
The mods are sovereign, I say (not even knowing who they are). Nor do I know anything about the constitution (except that it was called The Word).
In the beginning was the Word …
And The Word was good….
What, Amanda de Cadenet and Terry Christian? I beg to differ.
Aye right right surr….shurrup you lot! Honestleh! Right right what camera am ah on?
Having said that, when he gave Flavor Flav a massive “Word” clock for his neck, that was quite a sweet moment.
…. and needless to say, I enjoyed L7’s performance.
One Brexit thread? What about just one cricket thread, or one jazz thread? One Beatles thread? Post what you like. If it’s dull it will die on it’s arse. I speak from experience.
It’s a broad church and looking at the rate that this one has attracted comment, politics has the zeitgeist.
You’ve died on your arse? Now that’s what I call experience.
Judging by the febrile atmosphere in the Commons today I think something or someone will snap soon. It reminds me of one of those old western fist fights where by the end they can hardly stand or throw a punch. The rebel alliance needs to just hold its nerve fir a few more weeks cos one way or another something happens at the end of March be it a deal, no deal, or extension combined with an election. In the meantime it will just be Bam! and Kerpow!
I got the impression from Ian Blackford’s speech that he was suggesting the alliance form a temporary government. Vote Johnson out on a no confidence vote, form a temporary alliance government, get no deal off the table, hold an election. It all depends on whether they could all stomach Corbyn as PM, even on an interim basis. I wonder if Ken Clarke could be convinced? That’d be brill. Anything that might lead to the Tories splitting and disappearing would be brill. But it’s unlikely Corbyn would agree to anything other than him being the boss.
I still think there’d be a danger of a Tory/Brexit alliance at the election and a no deal Brexit, so I wonder if a temporary alliance would be able to see the whole thing through to the Brexit cancelling conclusion? Would be funny.
All pie in the sky though, as I just couldn’t see the opposition parties all coming together like that, or whether the ex-Tories would join with them. But Blackford was certainly hinting towards something like this.
Margaret Beckett is the latest name. Corbyn is too divisive to get the numbers.
Can’t answer the original question. Perhaps we all float round in space like Major Tom.
Geoffrey Cox, eh? What kind of country promotes “that” to high office?
The same kind of country that promotes Boris Johnson to Prime Minister, I guess.
The educational establishments that housed, tutored and prepared this pair for the outside world should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
He makes a mint as a QC and got to the top table by proofing up Theresa May at the right moment. He’ll be off like a shot if his QC gig look under threat.
Got another one on Newsnight … Bernard Jenkin.
I mean, what is that? I genuinely don’t know.
Judging by the other MPs in the studio, I don’t think they do either.
Shouldn’t be too surprised.
If this government is so flippant about peace in Ireland, why would they be particularly bothered about the safety of fellow MPs?
I’m beginning to think that all the anxieties and discord over Brexit will fade into irrelevance in the next six months, as the country will become involved in a blood drenched civil war over the Premier League’s use of VAR.
VAR has proved beyond reasonable doubt that the pimple on the end of his nose was quite clearly in an offside position and seeking to gain an advantage.
John Crace in the Guardian has ended up quoting the ‘Airplane:
“One pill makes you larger, and one pill makes you small. And the ones that Boris give you don’t do anything at all”
Will the EU continue to limp along? Far too many of its members want out. Principally France where a vote on their membership would blow the whole edifice.
Not joining the single currency seemed a mistake at the time, though it has meant that we have floated free of the problems affecting Southern Europe.
I never thought remaining out of the Euro was a mistake. Here in Southern Italy it seemed to double prices overnight and everyone resented it. They’ve never resented the EU though (or hadn’t until Salvini recently started whipping up some anti EU and anti-immigrant sentiment.)
I read an interesting article a couple of weeks ago comparing Italy and England. How they used to be so different, but now are very similarly both in the throes of anti-immigration populism.
An interesting difference regarding recent history, however, is that Italy has frequently been treated badly by the EU, yet pro-EU sentiment has largely remained strong; whereas the UK has been given some great deals (eg. remaining outside the Euro) yet EU-scepticism has dominated.
That was a leave argument which occurred to me during the referendum campaign which never seemed to be articulated by politicians keener on vague statements about regaining control and so on – the suspicion that the whole EU project might be moribund and the UK would be leaving early to avoid the rush rather than leaving a party which was going to carry on swinging without us. It wasn’t enough to persuade me to vote leave though.
@Gatz: great insight!
What happens if the UK doesn’t leave? I think you’d be very much welcomed as a necessary and friendly counterbalance by those nation-states increasingly chary of the Anglo-German bloc *cough*Ireland! Visegrad! Italy! *cough*
I don’t think there’s a single bit of actual evidence for that statement, in fact EU satisfaction levels measured in polls in recent months have shown HIGHER levels than in recent years.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-survey-italy-ireland-portugal-eurosceptic-poll-a8888126.html
I suspect that (1) Ireland, even its establishment, and (2) Italy might tend a little more towards skepticism when (1) the EU demands that our favourable tax arrangements in respect of foreign direct investment are scrapped and (2) the Franco-German bloc drops the hammer on Italy’s defiance on the deficits issue.
That certainly doesn’t surprise me as regards Italy. As I say, they would have loved to stay out of the Euro, as the UK did, but feelings of gratitude and appreciation towards the EU are far more common than any scepticism, at least here in the south. The mentality seems to be rather like Reg’s fellow revolutionaries in the Life Of Brian – Italians seem to attribute the EU with an ability to govern and distribute funding that they (perhaps rightly) don’t trust their compatriots to be capable of.
@ainsley
That’s because we’re supposed to be leaving!