Ed Sheeran in court being accused of copying Marvin Gaye (again).
I particularly like the closing paragraph in the attached Vulture.com article:
“Did Sheeran commit a crime?
No. Sheeran is accused of copyright infringement in a civil lawsuit. Whether one believes “Thinking Out Loud” is a crime against music remains an entirely separate issue.”
https://www.vulture.com/2023/04/ed-sheeran-copyright-lawsuit-over-marvin-gaye-song-explained.html
I’m not an Ed Sheeran fan so I had to go and make an effort to listen to his song. I can see the similarities, but come on – if that’s all it takes to start a plagiarism suit, then most of pop music will be in trouble. I’d far rather listen to Marvin Gaye than Ed Sheeran, but I hope Sheeran wins.
I think I feel the same way – although it pains me to be on the same side as Ed Sheeran! I’m pretty sure he was probably vamping around with the Marvin Gaye song and that led to him turning it into a new song. There’s just enough of a similarity to suggest that. But I also think you could say the same about hundreds, if not thousands, of pop songs.
It depresses me slightly* to report that Ed Sheeran carries a GoPro camera to record his songwriting sessions, for evidence in later plagarism trials.
(*) in the sense of “what is this world coming to when you have to…?”
Look out for the five hour bluray release of the “Ed-cam” footage of the Shape of You sessions.
(Or maybe five minutes, not five hours….)
We have a dustbin man whose name is Ted Sheeran, he’s thinking about suing the carrot headed plagiarist for pinching his name.
In Thinking Out Loud, Sheeran declares that, ‘darling, I will be loving you ’til we’re 70′. According to the ONS: ‘In 2020, the most common age at death (UK) was 87.1 years for males and 89.3 years for females in England and Wales, for those aged 10 years and over.’
That’s the best part of twenty years the little sod won’t be loving you for, so don’t feel sorry for him now.
These trials are such crap generally; have they not heard the James Brown version of “Fame” with another lyric, or “Moby Dick” (“Watch Yoyur step” in another guise)? Music is full of it. I presume they want an out-of-court settlement, and it’s a shakedown. (But how Led Zep got away with the Spirit knock-off intro of “Taurus”, I’ll never know).
Reading between the lines of the reports I’ve seen of this case, the Townsend family seem to have only jumped onto this after the minority rights holder, Structured Asset Sales, started their action against Sheeran.
Any big-name, big-selling artist is now considered fair game by these predatory copyright lawyers, it seems to me, on the flimsiest of “evidence”.
Marvin’s song was released on record 50 years ago and presumably Mr Townsend and his family have been receiving writers royalties from then on. Enough.
One of the worst example was the flute riff in Men at Work’s Down Under.
Years after the song was a mega hit, some astute businessman noticed the
flautist’s trilling was lifted from a long-forgotten or possibly traditional song
called something like The Kookaburra in the Tree. He then bought the rights
and sued for copyright infringement and won a shitload of money.
Pretty sure the flautist ended up topping himself not long afterwards
More about the case here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8497433.stm
EDIT
The flautist was called Greg Ham and apparently died of a heart attack
Wow, I remember that Kookaburra song from singing it in primary school, memory just came flooding back there. It is the same melody!
I imagine the guy who played the melody was probably well aware of its origins and thought it so well known it was in the public domain.
The guy who spotted he could acquire the rights for next-to-nothing and then sue in the hope of winning a big fat payday knew exactly what he was doing.
There are only so many chord progressions that sounds pleasing. We’re way past using having used all of them dozens of times. These cases are a blight on the entertainment business. Enough is enough.
So I had a listen, being completely unfamiliar with Sheeran’s oeuvre. First off, what a fucking awful song with awful production. It just takes a path of least resistance both harmonically and melodically, starting, traversing and ending nowhere memorable.
As to the plagiarism case, I presume it’s the chorus and that is an utterly generic I iii IV V7 progression. In Marvin’s case, he transcends that and creates an amazing bit of music. It’s a pity that these two songs will forever now be linked in the minds of many.
Ed Sheeran should take a leaf out of the Rolling Stones book and only plagiarise dead, black songwriters.
The song is fine btw. This thread reads like a collection of Grandads writing about music that teenagers like. It’s just pop music.
But many of of us are grandads who write about music that (a few, very odd) teenagers like…..
Agreed. As I still remember saying to my poor Dad when he took the needle off one of my new singles, castigating it as ‘rubbish.’
“It’s not for you.”
I use that phrase still when I catch myself calling a hugely popular pop tune something like, “a fucking awful song, with awful production,” and remind my 66 year-old self,
“It’s not for you.”
The plagiarism case is a complete load of bollocks, btw.
The point of my post was exactly your last sentence. I guess I had assumed that there would be a little more to Sheeran, given his roots as a solo singer/songwriter/performer. I tend to like solo guitarists/singers.
Aren’t you mixing up the Rolling Stones with Led Zeppelin?
The Stones usually credited source artists. Led Zeppelin almost never did.
I wished I’d known that when I posted.
I often like music that teenagers like even if it’s not for me, partly because I think pop music is for the present, here and now, in many ways and I like it fresh and new, and also because I just do. I therefore find some of it not so good. Can we not say so? Must we only stick to the past?
One of Keith’s kids pointed out the similarity between “Anybody Seen My Baby” and kd lang’s “Constant Craving”, so she and her co-writer were given writing credits, lawyers not involved I believe
Absolutely. I really like both of them. It’s just music, no need to have a brain aneurysm over it.
How did those Steely Dan scoundrels get away with this:
They “got away with it” because that note sequence and it’s rhythm existed long before Horace Silver used it. Which was why he was so unconcerned by Steely Dan using it.
It made no difference to the steady trickle of sales of his album. Might even have caused a few more copies to be sold on the strength of the similarity.
They were guilty as fuck regarding that other later plagiarism claim and paid up/gave credit when challenged.
Or Stevie Wonder, too!
When there’s a hit there’s a writ.
Given the song’s title, it’s ironic that Kevin R got sued for ripping off Warren Zevon’s Werewolves of London on Dexy’s It All Sounded the Same
Like all medicines, COCAINE can cause side effects
Very common (may affect more than 1 in 10 people)
• Hubris
• A sense of invincibility
• Kid Jensen spoonerisms
Kraftwerk sailed very close to the wind here. Opening melody, repeated a few times in the piece, resembles Tour de France.
Close to the woodwind, even. Good spot!
Not me – someone else on here pointed it out.
I don’t think anyone took the piss quite as much as Elastica did with Connection:
The most blatant bit of thievery I’ve ever heard is The Rolling People by Wigan space-heads The Verve. It is such a complete lift of The Four Horsemen by Aphrodite’s child, that it’s actually ridiculous.
Elastica also came to an out of court settlement with the Stranglers’ publisher for Waking Up (which, less blatantly, borrowed the chords from No More Heroes).
@jim-cain
Absolutely is!
The Verve had form – they even ripped off William Blake in the lyrics to History (good song, though). I may be a bitter, wizened man who shouts at tight jar lids, but I thought they were bang to rights over the Bittersweet Symphony thing. If you hear the orchestral version of The Last Time, it basically is the same song; it explains why ITV was able to use it on their football coverage without paying anything to Dickie Ashcroft.
I agree with Jim about Rolling People, but I never really understand the fuss about History (it’s not really a rip off, it’s an homage – and a great song), or Bittersweet Symphony.
The latter is demonstrably mainly comprised of The Last Time, but it’s also a far, far better and more magical song than The Last Time, because they’ve essentially taken the best bit, looped it and then added an entirely new vocal that fits it like a glove.
Now, I think it’s fair that the band give up the royalties (from an IP perspective, it’s bang to rights), but for anyone who grew up listening to Hip Hop it does beg the question as to how the above differs from any number of classic tunes from that genre which perform the same trick and which are accepted as art in their own right. Take Concrete Schoolyard, as an obvious example:
It still takes a bit of wit to spot the break, loop it and weave magic around it. It’s not like a lot of people were listening to The Last Time in 97 or this was a super obvious pull to make. Fair play to them IMO.
My commonsense is screaming ‘don’t to it, you will lose! ‘ here, but I’m going to have to argue with you, Bingo. I don’t think the argument is as simplistic as you have made it out to be.
I like Bittersweet Symphony, don’t get me wrong. But they were definitely caught bang to rights. Rightly or wrongly, hip hop has a Get Out Of Jail card: from the start it was built in sampling and thievery, and never tried to pretend it was anything else. Hip hop artists are expected to sample and loop other grooves: it would be unusual if they didn’t do this.
Bittersweet Symphony, by comparison, came into being in the context of Rock Music, a whole different kettle of fish. While there is an allowance for recycling blues licks and tropes, when a “song” is released (in the 90s at least), unless it’s clearly and obviously signalled, the understanding is that the “artist” has “written” that “song”. But Bittersweet Symphony didn’t just (as Richard Ashcroft has claimed) loop a little string sample from The Last Time and wrote a new melody over the top: it copied and reconstructed the groove so closely that when you hear The Last Time for the first time (ha) you would swear it was an instrumental remix of Bittersweet.
On top of that, the vocal melody is THE SAME. Try playing both with one finger on a piano: ‘I TOLD you once and I TOLD you twice” = “It’s a BITTER sweet SYM – phony this life”… see? It’s recast into a 90s indie anthem, but it’s the same song.
I like Bittersweet Symphony, I really do, but it’s a knock off and they tried to gloss over it. I think of it as a cover version with variations.
What I’m saying is this; as someone who grew up on Hip Hop, I simply don’t care about what is classically expected from Rock music. In fact, I find the expectations of the genre you’ve outlined above pointless and tiresome.
If a song is dope it’s dope. And Bittersweet Symphony is/was dope, which is why people went wild for it, while hardly anyone voluntarily listens to The Last Time, other than to compare it to Bittersweet Symphony. Clearly, the Verve added something or that wouldn’t be the case.
They were right to give up their royalties, but it doesn’t mean dick for my actual enjoyment of the song. In fact, I even find the indignation around it pretty additive.
Oh, and it wouldn’t bother me a single iota if I discovered tomorrow that the Verve didn’t write Drugs Don’t Work either. I don’t really care who writes the songs.
Sorry, I should add here: it’s not a question of “you will lose”, as this is really just a discussion on taste/how music is enjoyed.
My paradigm for that is just different to yours. Different.. and superior. 😜
It’s a nice end to the tale that when Allan Klein who had ownership of the rights (not the Stones) died Ashcroft approached his son who was taking over the company over the royalties issue and the son contacted Keith and Mick who agreed The Verve should have the royalties back and keep the rights.
Oh, I didn’t know that. That’s very generous of them.
Touché! 🙂
The Verve were *my* band in my late teens and I absolutely loved Rolling People. I was almost 30 when a mate first played me the Four Horsemen and my heart absolutely sank.
To sum it up in a brand new phrase which I’ve just coined, I can smile about it now but at the time it was terrible.
I’ll need to have a listen to Rolling People – I know the Aphrodite’s Child song so it will be interesting to hear!
Didn’t Keef give BS “back” to the verve in some gesture of magnanimity?
Paul Weller spent years re-appropraiting riffs and tunes from The Beatles, The Who, The Kinks, Motown riffs (and more no doubt).
He nearly got caught out by Jeff Lynne with the Changingman riff bearing a resemblance (ie exactly the same) as 10358 Overture.
He didn’t get a co-credit though as when he went to try and sue he was advised that both have parentage from Dear Prudence
Did m’learned friends have anything to say about Start? Undeniable that the riff is from Taxman but I guess the rest of the song is sufficiently different.
I don’t want to link to a D*ily M*il article without good reason (so I won’t) but I hear the latest is that Ed is saying he will quit music if he loses this trial. PLEASE let it be true!!
Ha! The good thing about Sheeran is that he is so prolific and varied that I think there is something for everyone. I can’t bear most of his output, but love The A Team and Castle on the Hill. I wonder who he nicked them off?
I really don’t understand why Ed Sheeran is so vilified by some music fans.
I don’t have any interest in his music, because it doesn’t fit with my preferences, but that’s as far as that goes with me. He’s quite obviously a decent guy who’s worked hard to get where he is and not an asshole, so good luck to him.
I remember seeing him on TV with his little 3/4 guitar and thinking “this poor little nerd doesn’t stand a chance. ” Shows what I know!
I don’t understand it either, and I’m one of the people he annoys!
It might be that he just sums up this modern trend for sensitive male singer-songwriters and their faux-emoting. God, I hate his voice and the way he vocalises his emotions: it’s like nails down a blackboard, it really is, for me. There’s also something very smug and off-putting about his smiley wee face.
Irrational, yes, but there you have it. I’m just trying to be honest. I’m a nice person in real life, I promise. I don’t often have irrational hatred against people.
Plus he’s an Ipswich fan so gets a pass from me…
…unlike the players playing upfront for the team!
(NB – joke would have been better last season)
If we win the last game 1-0, that’s a very pleasing 100 points and 100 goals! More goals than anyone else in all the English leagues – although Man C could still get there, in theory.
@black-celebration
It wasn’t to be today for the 100 points but 101 league goals isn’t too shabby. Well played Plymouth, you just kept on winning.
So, back to the Championship. I think we’ll do ok, our owners do seem to be building the right way.
Yes – perhaps if they really needed the win, things would have been different. A really good end to the season and back where we should be next season.
Having heard very little of his stuff, not a big fan, but then it’s not for old farts like the
majority of us AWers
That said, Sheeran comes across as a decent sort. Was very impressed when he came to Ireland
last year and did two Dublin warm up gigs in small venues (Whelans and Vicar St).
Rather than give the tickets away as freebies to his rock star peers, he sold them to
regular punters at normal (for each venue) prices.
Seems to be a good sort and very impressive as a live performer…not too keen on his recorded output but that could change.
The biggest question in my mind is what of Welsh co-writer Amy Wadge? I used to see her play regularly in basement of a Cambridge restaurant. She was a fabulously talented singer-songwriter who just did not get the lucky break.
Eventually, after years of slogging round the country in her car playing to folk clubs, she packed in performing live and became a songwriter for hire. She’s written absolutely loads of popular hits over the last decade or so (take a look at her wiki page) and the music for all three series of the BBC Wales crime drama Keeping Faith.
How did she have a 50% stake in writing something so, well, dull?
I suspect she will have pocketed a tidy sum (0.000012p) from us Afterworders racing to Spotify to listen to Thinking Out Loud.
Sorry, can’t really visualize the words “Amy Wadge”
on the front of the O2 or emblazoned on people’s chests