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US Election 2020

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I have a bad feeling about this.

Joe Biden has run a solid but unexciting campaign in the face of Trump’s showbiz approach. Trump seems to be getting all the coverage in recent days. Is it desperation – the death throes of a ridiculous egomaniac? Or is the pattern of 2016 repeating? It certainly feels like it.

Hoping for a Biden win – but I find it amazing that there isn’t a Democratic presidential candidate who can land punches on Trump.

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Comments

  2. Trump will win. There isn’t much to stop him. The Democrats rely on “being right about stuff” which is a virtue that got shown the door a long time ago (sadly). At least with Trump in, we can count down the days until he’s gone, it will be hard for him to cling on, and most likely his physical and mental health will decline in the meantime. If he loses, then he will carry on governing his army of goons via Twitter in any case.

    Of course, one of his unspeakable family will campaign once he’s got rid of.

    The real issue is the complete domination of collective intelligence by the algorithms that push this hateful cretin’s words to people with not enough brain cells to challenge it. The UK can’t be smug either, we have Bozo and we give airtime to Nigel Farrage and Kate Shemirani.

  3. Yes, the national opinion poll of a 10 point Biden lead, was always misleading as the electoral college means Trump only has to narrowly win the key marginal states.

    It is a worrying time as the Guardian headline says the race is tightening in key states. Hopefully it will encourage more Democrats to turn out.

    Agreed that Biden was the wrong choice. They needed someone young and inspiring. Every democratic president since 1960 has been young (with the exception of LBJ).

  4. Hats off to 2020, just when you think it can’t possibly be any more shite, it creeps on you and says “Boo!”
    It might even be worse than the dire 1980s … no, straight up!

    On Wednesday morning I’m listening to Electronic Sound by George Harrison.
    Side 1 goes “Bleep, Blop, Bleeeeeep, Dwoing, Hashahashahaah, Dwob,” and Side 2 goes “Whoosh, Blibber-Blobber-Blibber-Blobber,” and it will make infinitely more sense than U.S. Democracy c. 2020.

  5. What allows me hope is how slight his electoral college victory was last time. He’s spent 4 years shouting at the same people and that demographic (non college-educated middle aged white men basically) has shrunk slightly but significantly.

  6. This analysis by the New York Times suggests Biden will win and possibly by a wide margin. The polls show Biden with a far more significant lead than the one held by Hillary Clinton, and many of the likeliest explanations for the polling misfire in 2016 (when they had Hillary winning) do not appear to be in play today.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/02/upshot/polling-what-trump-needs-to-win.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

  9. I have a Biden feeling that the Democrats are gonna wipe the floor with Trump but I’m more concerned with the senate races rather than the Presidency itself. Fingers crossed 🤞

    Keep an eye out for John Osoff. He’s gonna be the Democrats next big thing.

  10. The political show ‘The Circus’ has a much more grassroots look at the American political landscape than what is fed through the news channels which I find is a great deal more honest and less frightening. Americans of all stripes are really a lot like you and me.

  11. For us outside America, how does Trump affect our lives? A mate said I don’t give a fuck , let the Americans fight amongst themselves instead of lecturing us on the superiority of their country, culture, economy, values etc.

    • Secretly we all want America to fail for their arrogance on the world stage. I remember being in Glasgow on 911 and the comeuppance was greeted with a well what did you expect? I sat in a bar and nobody panicked. Everyone was sanguine. We just watched it unfold and ordered another pint. America not Americans has no idea how much it is hated.

  12. Part of me (the metrosexual liberartarian educated elite ponce part) hopes the mass of votes already cast are all a vote for anyone but Trump.

    I don’t think I can take another four years of that idiot. Another four years of Boris is enough for anyone, surely?

        • I am serious. @Mrbellows if you don’t live in America, how does he affect you?
          I guess there is a general emboldening of Sovereign citizen QAnon wankery but I can’t think of anything else from my couch here in Australia.

          • I kind of agree, Junior. I don’t think Trump has done anything that affects my life, apart from withdrawing from the Paris Climate Accord, perhaps (but that can hopefully be rectified). I don’t think he’s been as harmful a President as Bush Jr., for example. But this is much to my surprise. I feared at one point he’d start a war with North Korea over twitter insults. The guy is a loose-cannon fruitloop loon, totally unpredictable, totally unfit for office and the thought of another four years of not knowing what he’s going to do next is very unsettling.

            • I just read Malcolm Turnbull’s autobiography. He is a former Australian Prime Minister who HD some dealings with Trump. Turnbull was a businessman, lawyer, private equity etc. He reckoned Trump was quite predictable as a businessman / deal maker , just not a conventional career politician.

              • In the 60’s Australia had a massive trade with the UK. UK joins the Common Market and and many many farmers were bankrupted. I can remember acre upon acre of orchards being bull dozed.

                • Well, from my POV here in the UK, the world has turned to shit in the last few years, and even more so under Trump’s tenure.

                  If you don’t think the POTUS has any influence if you live outside the USA, I suggest you google “Geo-political”

                  • Google geo- political? I studied political economy with a major in international relations. I don’t need to look up the meaning of geo-political and I’m disappointed that you would be so patronising. I am asking a serious question. How has your life changed compared to say when Obama was in?
                    I hate the bombastic, narcissistic, lying prick but I can’t see how it will affect me one way or the other, apart from maybe the sharemarket and the ripple effect on my superannuation (pension fund).

                    • Did you listen to a word the Boss said? Another 4 years of a man who makes George W Bush look like Abe Lincoln is sure as hell going to affect me.

          • There are so many reasons why a Trump second term is something to be feared outside the US. Let’s start with his rank vulgarity and indecency, his lies and dishonesty, his rule-breaking and undermining of democracy, his complete abandonment of the common good. He celebrates ignorance and encourages public humiliation of intellectuals and scientists. Healthy societies do not display such characteristics. His actions have emboldened populists throughout the world. He has split the western alliance and normalised political thuggery.

            But there’s so much more. Trump is an existential threat to the planet and Australia sits right on the front line. You’ve just emerged from the worst bush fires on record. The Great Barrier Reef is dying. If you are at all concerned about the impact of climate change on human societies, then Trump is a huge obstacle in the way. There will be no global solutions to tackle climate change so long as a man like Trump rules the US. Look at his response to the virus. He simply turns his back on inconvenient truths. I believe the climate emergency is real and happening now. We don’t have four more years to waste on a narcissistic, ignorant man-child like Trump.

            • Thanks – a better response than to google geo political.
              “If you are at all concerned about the impact of climate change on human societies”….yes well actually I am concerned. Alas the biggest obstacle to rehabilitation of the reef is our own Federal government.

              Reflecting more on this, I think the most significant leadership change, speaking “geo-politically” (Google it if you are unfamiliar with the term), is in China because the leadership can change things so quickly and dramatically whereas in America the levers of government are so much less all-encompassing for want of a better term.

              • Wouldn’t a US president sympathetic to climate action be likely to have more influence on your own government’s behaviour than a slacker like Trump? The US, like China, still has the potential to lead on these big issues. All Trump offers is excuses for other governments to hide behind.

                • Possibly.
                  Australia is a huge exporter of coal and the biggest swing State, Queensland has a lot of coal. The Labor Party probably lost the last election on environmental issues in Qld.

                  • Yes, it sounds like a similar story to the UK and elsewhere. A lot of people seem to be shrugging off this infestation of corporate cronyism into politics as nothing new, and nothing to get too bothered about. But it feels far from trivial to me. I’ve been troubled by the lack of journalistic scrutiny of the UK government on matters of national importance such as Russian interference, Cambridge Analytica, the test and trace fiasco, PPE fraud and so on. Without being held to account, the government is free to continue to bend the rules and norms.

                    Funnily enough, I’ve been watching the recent BBC documentary series ‘The Rise of the Murdoch Dynasty’, and what struck me was how low all politicians have stooped before King Rupert. Even politicians of integrity and intelligence seem intimidated. Surely the buck stops with them? The documentary is depressing because it demonstrates – transparently – that corporate interests rule our political landscape and all politicians thus far have been too craven to do anything about it. Trump, the self-proclaimed swamp drainer, is a figurehead for that dank, shadowy world.

                    • Try reading Private Eye if you’re looking for journalistic scrutiny – they report on levels of political venality in this country (the UK) that sometimes make Trump look like an amateur, certainly like a boorish upstart arriviste; here the Tories have probably been the worst at taking the piss, and they’ve had centuries of practice.

                  • I honestly don’t see why Private Eye bothers publishing any more. Each edition contains yet more shameful revelations about Boris & Co handing out contracts to buddies etc etc etc and nothing, absolutely nothing, happens. No apologies, no resignations, absolutely nothing.
                    Boris & Co, like Trump & Co, realised long ago that the attention span of the public is somewhat akin to a gnat’s. Let the storm blow for a few days then let’s get back to feeding the trough. After all it’s what we’re here for, feeding the trough

                    • I diffidently suggested to Private Eye that they start an electronic version for those of us who would otherwise get paper copies 3 weeks late. No plans, etc, with a slight hint of scorn. Tossers.

                    • England will not have become any less of a tiny-minded shithole in the three weeks since publication, so it’ll still be relevant.

                    • Private Eye is the Indie label for in-depth reporters, an A&R for the Sunday papers.

                      It’s suprising the Grauniad hasn’t bought it and made it shit.

            • What Martin said.

              I’m sorry if I have offended you, Junior, but I had no idea what you studied. Suffice to say, Trump has a definite effect here in Europeland.

              FWIW, I have “B. Eng (Hons) MIET” (dull) on my business card, so you could say I’m a Scientist. There’s a difference between science and engineering, but it’s all under the same umbrella.

              Enjoy your sleep.

              • Thanks Steve. The degree was irrelevant to my point I shouldn’t have mentioned it. I took the comment as dismissive when I was serious. I agree the world will be a better place without Trump at the helm in America assuming Biden is competent.

    • Junior, not sure if you’re a subscriber to the AFR, so I am pasting this here, from today’s online edition:

      Eight changes for Australia from a Biden victory

      A Joe Biden victory promises to draw a line under the turmoil in international affairs that has been a hallmark under Donald Trump’s presidency but would nevertheless mean some changes – including uncomfortable ones – for Australia.

      Economy
      A blue wave where the Democrats capture the White House, Senate and retain the House of Representatives is likely to spur global markets because of the sense the volatility of the Trump years are over and a unified government will end legislative gridlock. That will be good for Australia. As part of the economic recovery, Biden has pledged to spend $US2 trillion on clean energy, while Congressional Democrats have passed a $1.5 trillion infrastructure bill. That presents opportunities for Australian super funds and infrastructure firms like Macquarie and Transurban. However, businesses’ campaign to cut the company tax rate in Australia could be blunted with Biden promising to lift corporate taxes on US firms.

      Climate change
      Joe Biden has promised to rejoin the Paris climate change pact as a priority in a declaration of how serious he takes global warming and signalled a need to “transition” away from oil and gas. Coupled with Europe’s insistence on making emissions reduction part of a free trade agreement and UK PM Boris Johnson telling Scott Morrison he wants “bold action” on climate ahead of the postponed Glasgow summit, Australia now faces a pincer movement. Without the cover of Trump, it will be increasingly hard for Australia, often criticised as a global laggard on tackling emissions, to avoid increasing its targets or committing to a net zero emissions goal by 2050.

      Trade
      The World Trade Organisation has been hamstrung by the Trump administration’s veto on appointing judges to its arbitration panel. Biden is much more likely to seek reform of the body (as does Australia) than blow it up as part of a commitment to multilateralism. But that doesn’t necessarily mean a revival of free trade. While Biden championed the Trans-Pacific Partnership as vice president, he has said he has sought to renegotiate the pact as a prelude for the US rejoining. He is likely to face domestic protectionist sentiment and has promised to tax companies that shift jobs offshore.

      Big tech
      The Morrison government’s bid to make big tech companies such as Google and Facebook to pay news media outlets for content might run into opposition from a Biden administration. The US has already signalled its interest in the legislation, while European efforts to tax the American tech firms was shelved because of anger from Trump. Biden’s running mate Kamala Harris is a senator from northern California and has close ties to Silicon Valley, with executives flooding her campaign with donations. As a former attorney-general for California, she was criticised for being too hands-off when it came to regulating the tech giants.

      China
      There has been a bipartisan hardening in attitudes towards China in the US but under a Democrat White House there is likely to be a shift in emphasis. Biden is likely to be much more forthright on issues such as human rights in Xinjiang and Hong Kong. That will significantly add weight to protests from Australia. But in other areas Biden might be less confrontational as he seeks cooperation on issues such as climate change. There is a risk that Australia, which has paid an economic price by standing up to China, could be left isolated.

      Alliances
      Biden has pledged to revive America’s alliances after Trump belittled and berated long-standing partners in Asia and Europe. The US-Australia alliance is in comparatively strong shape but the US is likely to push for Australia to play a bigger role in the Indo-Pacific and deepen military cooperation, particularly as it looks to breath new lift into its pivot to Asia. The US will continue to press Australia to conduct freedom of navigation exercises within 12 nautical miles of contested islands in the South China Sea – that pressure may get harder to resist if Biden succeeds in coordinating other countries to withstand China.

      Multilateralism
      Biden, who has a long interest in foreign affairs, is likely to see America engage more with multilateral organisations like the United Nations, World Health Organisation and WTO. That will be welcome to Canberra’s foreign policy establishment. While Morrison warned darkly against “negative globalism” last year, an audit by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade found it was in Australia’s interest to seek reform of multilateral bodies from within rather than leave. A re-engaged America will provide a much-needed boost to those efforts, especially with concerns that China has been allowed to capture many of those bodies.

      Political environment
      A Biden election victory will provide a fillip to progressives in Australia and will be a reminder that elections are won in the centre ground, not by polarising voters and appealing to the fringes on both the left and right.

  14. I live 45 minutes from the USA, we need them for trade, food supplies etc, having a narcissistic, idiotic, non politician, wannabe dictator in charge of the biggest economy in the world has the potential to screw us up in a big way.

    And one example of how he affects the world in a big way is his complete inability to recognise how climate change is causing us to rush towards a complete calamity for the planet. this is the biggest threat to us today, not Covid-19

      • It does interact with, contribute to and is affected by soil loss, deforestation, desertification, ocean acidification and eutrophication, species loss, rise in refugees, loss of ground water, sea level rise, etc. The world is too interconnected to hide behind national boundaries or for anyone not to be affected by the policy choices and direction of the US federal government.

        • WRT the environment, while it will be good to see the needle moving from negative back into positive, it’s worth remembering Biden is the candidate of tiniest improvement. Yes, it’s probably true that he needed to talk about a gradual transition from oil and stick up for fracking to win, but it’s also where he stands. And if the Dems don’t win the senate it will be hard for him to do the little he is determined to do.
          But, in terms of how Trump’s presidency has affected us, I would say that a lot of people who, like me, are naturally of a misanthropic bent, were crushed by his victory in 2016. Obviously, a chunk of support was from the star struck/entertainment value wing and a significant per cent age was from the gleefully uninformed/ too busy surviving to bother with this politics b****cks wing, but a huge number of his votes came from people who could see exactly who he was and who liked it.
          While, in retrospect, I think I overestimated the proportion which was the third group, the implication was that people are, on the whole, even more appalling than I thought. So it will be somewhat reassuring if – having been presented with a ubiquitous avalanche of evidence of the man’s character – Don’s vote is drastically reduced tonight.
          The opposite would have the opposite effect..

  15. At least he hasn’t started a war and has, generally, reduced US troops on foreign soil. US military excursions abroad have hardly been glorious since WWII. He’s only trying to please his base, of course. The American public, on the whole, has been bewildered as to why their boys and girls have spent so long fighting wars. That has stayed his hand when pressing the button, except for that one that killed the Iranian general.

    Assuming he loses. In four or eight years time, the likes of Pompeo will not hesitate.

    • @Tiggerlion I agree with those comments. When he was elected the was a dread that he would be the one to start a nuclear conflagration. The opposite has actually been the case. Very similar to when Reagan was elected. Very little if any worth achieved in his four years in power and the damage to Anerican interests overseas will take more than the next 4 years to repair. However he did promote a friendship between a slew of Arab countries and Isreal which no other president has been able to achieve. He is not a politician he is a businessman – US obsession with wealth may just give him another 4 years. After all his opponent is not exactly dynamic

      • A closet Trump fan are you not @SteveT.

        I haven’t noticed much love for the West emanating from those Arab Nations even less for Israel.

        Four more years of this Monster and the climate will definitely be fucked and there won’t be any way of turning things round.

        Putin will be very pleased that his pet stands a good chance of being re-elected. Expect old style Soviet Expantion in the coming years.

        Trump is a criminal and should face the consequences of his actions.

        • Nothing could be further from the truth @Baron-Harkonnen as you well know. However I am not one eyed and despite all of his nasty characteristics he is not a warmonger. The UAE and Bahrain have always been friends of the West and many of their leaders past and present were educated in the UK. Their rapprochement to Israel has only happened because of the friendship between Tump and Netanyahu – you can justifiably argue that they are both nasty pieces of work but it has still happened despite the odds. If as is predicted that Sudan follows suit then that will be remarkable because they are hardly moderate.
          The election is a mess and Trump’s response is as predictable as it is wrong but because I recognise something good that came out of his tenure does not mean I am a fan.

          • Bahrain and the UAE have NEVER been in conflict with Israel. In fact both countries have enjoyed economic and security links with Israel over many years. Trump has not brought both countries any closer to Israel than they already were.

            These relationships are enhanced by all three nations hostility to Iran. All Trump succeeded in doing was selling more arms (F-35`s) to the umbrage of Israel.

            The real issues in the Middle East concern as we all know the Palestinians and Israelis. In fact Trump`s `deal` between the three countries was kept from the Palestinians, hardly a move to bring `Real` peace to the Middle East.

            As usual Trump was claiming glory for doing nothing to bring peace to the area.

            As for your claim @SteveT that `despite all of his nasty characteristics he is not a warmonger how about his threat to “Totally destroy North Korea” and contrary to popular thinking the relationship between N. Korea and the USA is much worse than before Trump was `voted` in, in 2016. However he is certainly not a threat to his pal Putin. He`s probably still pissing his bed when he dreams of Putin.

  16. Trump has encouraged ignorance, paranoia, and cruelty. it takes a long time to build up cultural structures that take us beyond our instinctive prejudices into reflection and empathy, but not long to break them down. As a result, I’d like Cheato to get a metaphorical kick in the bollocks then a kick in the head to make sure (yes, I do see the irony given my second sentence). But it needs to be a big enough prang that he realises he can’t BS his way out of it.

    I then want him to naff off the world stage, and his view be sufficiently discredited that his enablers are shamed should such values raised again in my lifetime. A jail sentence, bankruptcy, and ruination sufficient for him to have a late onset of humility and deliver a mea culpa
    and a request that his followers were wrong to see him as an example would be nice, too. I realise this is unlikely.

  19. This is an enormously wealthy man who has made his way to the very top of US society. He is the President of the United States of America. Thousands, perhaps millions, regard him as a hero. And yet he continually paints himself has the plucky underdog who can’t catch a break because some vague enemy won’t let him do what he wants.

    • This is an allegedly enormously wealthy man. The full scale of debts has yet to be revealed.

      There’s a rumor that Deutsche are about to call in their loan on him, which might be interesting.

      • When Bloomberg was briefly running:

        Bloomberg has hit Trump in another way that might hurt more. In Texas, when asked whether the country wanted a race between two New York billionaires, he replied, “Who’s the other one?”

  20. Just seen Trump on CNN at his headquarters thanking his staff. He looked and sounded tired and weary as though he was beginning accept defeat. I’ve been impressed with his rallies this last week or so. Full of energy, positive about victory, ever a showman, in contrast to Biden’s doddery old man performances. Just now, his tone has changed.

  22. I’m withering between staying up and going to bed now and getting up at 3 or so. As I don’t feel remotely sleepy, I’ll have to rely on wine and Pringles to keep me up until 3 or 4am.

    I don’t have any predictions per se but I’m hoping for a Biden win in Texas that will put the tin lid on any thoughts Trump might have of contesting the result.

    The slightly bizarre thing for me in all this is that no-one seems to doubt that Biden will win the popular vote quite handsomely (as did Hilary Clinton) – however that is by no means certain to match the electoral college result. Mind you, as we have the House of Lords, I guess we’re not well placed to criticise.

      • Not having paid much attention to the machinery of the U.S. system until the last couple of years, I find the more I learn the more I’m convinced there’s not a single element I’d swap for what we have over here with one exception – I do think the two term limit for a leader is a good idea that should be universal..

  23. Some thoughts here from BBC Newsnight person as to why the US election matters to the UK.

    • This is now seriously messy. The Democrats needed a clear victory and they may not have a victory at all. The Republicans have done remarkably well in the House & Senate elections too. They can hardly cry voter suppression since the turnout is so high (way above our elections). It’s all down to just three states and their postal votes. Biden needs to win two of them.

      • Don’t believe turnout is much above last UK election, if at all. It is up a lot, but from a pretty low base.

        And the UK had 3 elections/referendums in a very short time, so there was some voter fatigue.

    • He has made it up.

      He manifestly hasn’t won. But I think he will.

      But, my God, wasn’t he awful. Lying to the world and essentially announcing a coup and civil disobedience.

    • This was entirely predictable though. He prepared the ground by denying the validity of mail-in votes early on and by refusing to say he’d go quietly. It’s how he plays the game. Many warned of this. He probably knows the Supreme Court won’t agree to his demands but he can fire up his followers to a dangerous degree. He’s lit a match and is standing back to watch. Biden still has a good chance of a win. Trump probably knows Biden’s chances are good, that the late votes would favour Biden and not him. Not quite a coup but playing with fire.

  31. It’s not looking good at all now if you’re a Biden supporter. I find it profoundly sad that so many people think that Trump is the answer to anything. 71.4% in Wyoming! WTAF? And the Republicans will hold the Senate. It’s difficult to feel any positivity this morning.

    • Every dirty trick in the book. What a thoroughly vile man he is.

      But I suspect many of his supporters admire his shenanigans, He’s the sly maverick taking on the powers-that-be and winning.

  33. If Biden had said “we can’t call it , we are hopeful but it is close and we we will sit and wait like all Americans” then Trump may have been more circumspect. But when Biden was so bullish about victory then Trump was always going to react in his usual belligerent, disruptive way.

  38. I clearly remember the 92 general election, Brexit referendum, 2017 election & the 2016 US election.

    In all of those the pollsters got it wrong & in all cases they said they would learn from their mistakes, make adjustments to their procedures & get it right next time.

    I am inclined to believe that it is educated guesswork

    Sure, polling companies will be apologetic, but they will also assure us that they will never let it happen again.

    Bag of shite.

    They will continue to make forecasts & predictions & mugs like me will pay attention to them.

    I fucking despair.

    • A very good point, Jack, and one that I made to a US-based chum of mine. He insisted that Biden would win – precisely because they have ‘adjusted the polls for inflation’, so to speak. Even then, it’s gone wrong.

      I’ve said all along that Trump stands a good chance of getting back in, but I’d bloody well love to be proven wrong.

      • Polls only ever return results based on the responses of the sort of people who will communicate with pollsters. A lot of people, myself included, actively try to avoid pollsters.

          • Because I can’t be bothered with them, that’s all.
            If I’m out and about on the High Street I’m either on my way TO somewhere or I’m on my way FROM somewhere. I don’t want to stop and answer a load of questions. I’m sure there are a lot of people who think pretty much the same.

            • Absolutely right, I do the same. Cannot be bothered. I always avoid those party activists when I’m on the way into the polling station to vote as well. Mind you that’s usually because in my area they’re wearing a blue rosette…

  39. If Party 1 can get into power polling fewer votes than Party 2, perhaps it’s not too late for Brentford to get promoted to the Premier League for August 2020?
    Gotta be worth a punt.

    And I’m going to try to beat Roger Bannister’s 4-minute mile before he does in 1954.

  40. Biden takes Wisconsin, looking better and better, no control of the senate is extremely bad, however. And Trump will start all sorts of recounts, lawsuits very soon in all probability.

    • At this stage, I don’t care about the Senate. That turned out to be a blue mirage. A Trump second term is too hideous to contemplate. I’m trying to stay positive, and any kind of legitimate Biden victory buys time, and exposes Trump to the state courts. Trump will cause trouble on the way out, of course. Who knows what he will try and stir up? But my sense is that Fox News and the Supreme Court will go against him if his complaints lack transparency and credibility.

      • I don’t know about Fox News, but the Supreme Court surely will uphold the law, which means counting every vote, not just the ones for Trump.

        But I was talking to an American colleague and he was very despondent about the Senate whoever wins the Presidential vote.

  41. The practise of voting one party in lower house and the opposing party in the upper house has always annoyed me. I get the argument, house of review, keeps them honest, applies a handbrake etc. But, if you vote for one party to form a government in the lower house shouldn’t you want to actually let them implement their programme? You can always vote them out next time.

  42. Pennsylvania, Georgia, Nevada, North Carolina. Biden needs just one of these to win the Presidential Election. Trump needs all of them.

    Trump will want a recount and he has every right to do that when so many states have been so close – but the writing appears to be on the wall for the stupid old twat.

  44. Even if Biden wins the fact that the Senate stays republican is actually a good thing for Conservatism and Big Business in the US. They get rid of an unpredictable moron and the last thing BB wants is unpredictability.

    • I have thought about the lack of traction a Democrat President will have with the Senate as it is – and how that will stifle any progress on health care and climate change – but the removal of Trump from the White House will feel so very liberating and allow the US to be taken seriously again on the world stage. The USA is a great, great country and needs to get some dignity back. That, at least, is something I think Biden and particularly Harris will be able to deliver.

  45. Can anyone tell me why the BBC have been showing Biden with fewer electoral college votes than other sources for most of the last 24 hours? At the moment they have hi:on 243, while, for example, The Guardian and the New Yorker both show 264 and within touching distance of the 270 he needs.

    • Caution? From the Graun:

      Our current total of 264 electoral votes for Joe Biden includes the fact that AP have called Arizona for the Democratic nominee. Not all decision desks have yet.

      Associated Press have issued this guide to all of the states they have called. This is what they say about Arizona:

      The AP called the race at 2:50am. EST Wednesday, after an analysis of ballots cast statewide concluded there were not enough outstanding to allow Trump to catch up. With 80% of the expected vote counted, Biden was ahead by 5 percentage points, with a roughly 130,000-vote lead over Trump with about 2.6 million ballots counted. The remaining ballots left to be counted, including mail-in votes in Maricopa County, where Biden performed strongly, were not enough for Trump to catch up to the former vice president.

      • Thanks Moose. That makes sense. One of the odder features of US elections to outsiders is how media outlets ‘call’ states for a candidate, and it seems to carry almost as much weight as an official declaration from whatever the equivalent is of a returning officer in the UK.

          • Just like media outlets in the UK calling elections based on exit polls. But they do it 50 times. The votes still have to be counted in both cases.

            • Polls are one thing, but in the UK they don’t have line graphs showing red and blue lines with the count in each constituency as it happens.

              I’ve browsed the discussion boards online for trump supporters, and every spike in those blue lines is “evidence” of voter fraud. Why can’t each state just keep the count under wraps until they have finished counting?

              • It gives them something to report. Not sure any state has completely finished counting yet, so to have nothing to report for 2 or 3 days would not be acceptable.

                I find it a bit bizarre in Canada where we have 5 time zones that they are publishing results from, say, Novia Scotia when voting is still continuing at full speed in British Columbia or Alberta on election night.

        • He will get above 270 today or tomorrow, maybe by some margin. With all Trump ‘s legal shenanigans, may not be completely official for weeks. Hopefully the Republican party will remove support for Trump to speed things up.

          • Any serious thinkers in the GOP would be glad to be shot of him, as he’s a fucking eejit and a liability. Withdraw financial support and let him pay – in advance since he’s a dodgy creditor – for his own mendacious claims. He might stop the tantrum and do a flounce – which is what we want.

  46. I appreciate it counts for zilch, but it’s noteworthy that Biden has now received more individual votes than any other presidential candidate in US history.

    • Yebbut as Rudy Guiliani said, that’s fake news. No-one has witnessed where all those votes came from, so they could have come from Mars for all we know. Biden himself could have voted 5 times – he could have voted 5,000 times. Wibble.

    • Re Slug’s post above – On the downside, far from being wiped out, Trump’s own vote has gone up by something like 10% – even if a few of them are probably now coming down with COVID as a result of attending one of his rallies

      • Very true, but we shouldn’t be surprised that Trump’s vote increased also. For every American who hates him, there’s one who now thinks he can walk on water.

        • Record turnout, record population so votes are up for all. If you look at a map of the US, the coasts (generally) belong to the Democrats and the Republican heartlands are in the middle of the country. You can go from e.g. North Dakota south to Texas without hitting any Democrat states. These would vote Republican no matter who the candidate was. There are only ever going to be swings of a small number of percentage points in any election.

          If Biden wins the popular vote by about 5 million, which could happen, then the polls were not as far out as was first thought. The incumbent President is rarely voted out after one term in recent history so by no means is this a show of strength for Trump.

          • And very rarely a Republican incumbent. Lost time it happened was Bush senior defeated by Clinton in 1992 and that time Ross Perot took an unusually large third party share of the vote, not far from 20% of votes cast.

            • For some time now, the real U.S. election map has resembled the map of the “United States” from 2000A.D. with Mega Cities 1 & 2 on either coast and The Cursed Earth in the middle..

  48. It’s pretty clear now Biden has won, isn’t it? I feel relieved now.

    We just need patience. Let Trump bluster and delay, and let him see his lawsuits through, with the comforting thought that Biden will be in the White House next year. As Black Celebration says above, the country can then start getting some of its dignity back.

    I think it will also be wise to avoid triumphalism and gloating of any kind, as tempting as that might be. It was a close contest and there are big divisions that need to be healed.

  49. I’m looking forward to Trump explaining how dementia sufferer “Sleepy Joe” Biden is also a criminal mastermind who engineered a massive electoral fraud right under the President’s nose.

  50. A slight aside:

    IF Biden becomes president in January I believe that he will pardon/ absolve Trump of any/ all crimes & misdemeanours & recommend that all federal authorities do the same for the sake of national unity.

    Bearing in mind that he almost certainly will not have the senate onside, he may well be thinking that it may give him some brownie points with the senate going forward (it may also go some way towards drawing the sting from Trump).

    But then again, what the fuck do I know?

  51. I still find it astonishing that so many folks would vote for a guy who stood buy and did nothing/told lies to boost his appeal while hundreds of thousands of his own citizens perished in a pandemic. And continue to do so. What is a president actually for, and has Trumpism redfined its purpose?

    There are so many rational reasons to dislike Trump, to see him as an existential threat to democracy, the environment, the rule of law. If anarchy, hate, a little bit of racism and winding up the libs is your thing, then I guess I can sort of see his appeal. But ultimately where does it get you? Writing in the UK’s increasingly schizophrenic Daily Telegraph the other day Farage claimed that a Biden victory would turn the US into an international laughing stock. It’s a world view I just can’t recognise, but Trumpism is alive and kicking at the Telegraph. This morning Judith Woods has an ‘opinion’ piece with the extravagant headline “Donald Trump gave those poor, patronising Islington liberals the shock of their lives. For the kale pesto brigade to dismiss voters in the US as ignorant, misled or just plain evil, is both fatuous and intellectually lazy.” This kind of hysterical headline is now routine in a once solid, credible centre right newspaper. Why is a newspaper that once traded on traditional home counties conservatism embracing Trumpism? Why is such an indecent man defended in a paper that once held itself up as the epitome of decency? It’s as if the whole foundation of conservatism was built on quicksand.

    Trumpism will not go away with a Biden victory. It has infected the body politic and I am confused and concerned.

  52. My god, they are slow at counting. In Pennsylvania it seems certain counts just stop and they say they will continue tomorrow. It is currently 2pm there and they are not counting in some areas! Nevada say they should be done by the 12th!

  57. “What a sad night for the United States of America to hear their president say that, to falsely accuse people of trying to steal the election……”

    The words of the CNN anchor as the Donald Trump speech finished.

    I never thought that I’d see the day when that summary was needed, genuinely shocked. What strange times we live in

  58. Well done to the news networks for cutting away from Trump basically lying repeatedly in his presser last night (which was timed to happen during their prime time news slots), citing lack of evidence.

    On the other hand, what the fuck have you been doing for the last four years?

  59. Despite, I still feel the desperate fraud will succeed and retain the Presidency.

    He’ll career madly off the rails again and again and he’ll commit at least one more impeachable act. He’ll face impeachment again. His defenestration will eventually take place whether peacefully or at the cost of civil unrest.

    • I believe that should Biden get over the line civil unrest is almost certain to happen.

      He will never go quietly & he will fight to keep the presidency until the last drop of other people’s blood is spilled.

    • No, I think that he’ll be persuaded to go by the party. They will have another useful idiot lined up to front them. There’s an almost infinite supply of power-hungry principle-free politicians out there .

      • I heard another theory from a savvy friend of mine. Trump might know he is on the way out, but is creating as much bluster and chaos as possible in an attempt to negotiate immunity for his crimes in exchange for conceding. In other words, I’ll call off the riots if you promise not to put me in prison. What do you think?

        • I think that anything could be possible with that gentleman. He’s got the Supreme Court after all, and the party been seeding the lower courts with Rep-leaning judges for years.

        • Trump going to prison is a non starter, if he is prosecuted (which I think highly unlikely), it will take years to even get to court – it’s not going to happen.

          Should he theoretically be convicted of high crimes which would ordinarily merit jail time, how can the permanent armed security Detail protect him while he is behind bars?
          The more you think about it the more obvious it is that he will not face any charges.

          The 3 most recent SCOTUS appointees will be aware that if they manage to retain the presidency for Trump it will stay with them for decades to come & will be thought in Law schools across the land forever. It will taint them forever & for their families for generations to come.

          Their names will always be associated with it & regardless of their position they will never leave it behind.

          IF Biden becomes president, he will pardon Trum of any/all crimes & misdemeanours & he will asks all states to join him in doing the same for the sake of national unity.

          This will get him some brownie points with the republican controlled senate & will also have the effect of drawing the sting out of Trump.

          All well & good in theory, but what the fuck do I know?

        • I’m not sure Trump conceding will make much difference with his more rabidly armed-and-dangerous supporters. They’ll claim he was forced to concede and still believe that the presidency has been stolen. I don’t think he’s in control of them any more, if he ever really was.

  60. The Republican Party and its support is an enigma to me. It’s a party that seems devoted to the ongoing enrichment of the 1%, voted for by people who stand to gain little or nothing from their vote. Many Republican voters enjoy and benefit from Obamacare and other Democratic policies. They just can’t bring themselves to acknowledge it at the polls. Outside the culture wars, the Republican party offers nothing to the majority of its voters.

    • “Republicans is fine
      If you’re a multi-millionaire
      Democrats is fair
      If all you own is what you wear
      Neither of them’s really right
      ‘Cause neither of ’em care”

    • There’s definitely a mental barrier between the two sides who just don’t “get” each other.

      From what I have picked up, what rational Republican voters want is to:
      – Keep their pensions and savings
      – Keep wages low (which enables businesses to thrive and keep jobs in the US)
      – Stop petrol costs from rising
      – Stop healthcare insurance going up

      Which I suppose is fine. Theoretically there is nothing wrong with democracy based on rational self-interest.

  63. It’s been called. He’s now a pile of burnt orange breadcrumbs! Pennsylvania – Biden’s home state – has turned blue. Now for four years of different deadlock!

    • Well he is, will definitely won 3 of them I think and probably Arizona, but Trump has been catching up there. There is also North Carolina and Alaska which Trump will almost certainly win.

      If Biden wins those 4 then it is 306 to 232 and pretty convincing, also making it harder for Trump to mount legal challenges in all those states. There will be re-counts though and there are also some outstanding votes from overseas military personnel to come in.

  79. My favorite story right now is the latest campaign press conference, that the Trump people held at the Four Seasons in Phillie.

    Not the Four Seasons hotel.

    The Four Seasons Landscaping company, which is small storefront in a strip mall area. Flanked by a sex shop and a crematorium.
    THAT is where Giuliani was standing when the news broke.

  80. Kamala Harris is at least as important as J.B. in this election. A vote for him is a vote for her, and she’s the most dynamic, positive force for good in U.S. politics right now. She could be POTUS. Yes, yes, I do rather fancy her in a powerful MILFY sort of way. That’s irrelevant, and it does you no credit to have brought that up.

  81. Watching Biden’s speech right now. What a massive relief to hear a literate, articulate, passionate President! AND HE JOGGED TO THE PODIUM! That’s more than I could have done.

    Happy, happy, happy!

    • Don’t think so. His priority is COVID. COVID hottest spots are Trump areas coz COVID is fake and masks are an infringement of my civil liberties, and this gun here says I am right.
      So the turn things around he has to require masks , impose lockdowns etc or at least work with States to do so.
      Gonna be ugly

  85. Trump’s dog, having been asked to leave the park:

    In fact, unlike most presidents, who have functioning families which often include a pet, not only does DJT not have a dog, but the very idea he could muster the necessary empathy is unimaginable..

    • Some are saying he wants someone (the previous 4 weren’t meek/nuts enough, apparently) who will let him invoke the Insurrection Act:

      “Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.”

      Standard stuff from the dictator playbook.

      • With Four Seasons gardener Rudy unable to dig up any dirt, and David Bossie – head of Trump’s legal strategy – out with a case of Covid-19 he caught at the big non-victory party at the White House, it looks like Trump will be side-lining the courts and going straight for the coup, with a new defence secretary to provide the muscle and Barr to provide the cover.

        • Troubling developments – add to this that a few weeks ago that charlatan Mike Flynn was on YouTube taking the Qanon oath of allegiance, so those clowns think they have the military, or a portion of it, on their side. I remain confident though, that Trump, in the vernacular of our US cousins, will get his ass handed to him if he tries any of this malarkey.

        • Sheesh what a thought. It seems unimaginable that the USA could end up in some kind of messy civil war… or coup… or whatever it would be.

          I’m starting to think it’s a possibility, but the sensible, grounded part of my head says “nah, no way, it would never happen”….

          • That would be a right old two and eight, as Walter Cronkite would have said.

            Trump has made a lot of enemies in the CIA and the Pentagon. The army won’t forget what he said about veterans. The other thing is that these gun totin’ rednecks would shit their pants if they were up against something tougher than their usual opponents – unarmed blacks, teenagers in high schools, endangered species.

            Zebras don’t tend to have rocket launchers.

      • Would the US Army be willing to back him in a coup?
        I very much doubt it. I think he’ll leave the White House in Handcuffs (or an XL body bag) if he tries that.
        I also don’t think the Republican party’s big-business backers will want that kind of disruption. There will be a lot of pressure exerted to settle this quickly and peacefully.

  89. I’ve had quite the tumultuous experience in the past 24 hours with a friend who is full on MAGA. There is just no amount of reasoning that will convince them. They are lost to time.

    • It seems a very peculiar mass delusion. I wonder if in future they will look back on this shameful and messy post-election period and regret the stance they have taken? Probably not. I suppose this is just the world we live in now.

  90. Interesting thought from the twitters: why are the GOP not insisting that the favourable-to-them Senate votes are not recounted? They appear on the same ballot papers.

  91. This will drag on for weeks yet, I reckon.

    There are no legal or constitutional requirements obliging a candidate (or a sitting president) to deliver a concession speech; rather, it is a custom of courtesy.

    Once he admits defeat, as he must, Trump could take a leaf out of Al Gore’s book. To break the impasse of the disputed 2000 election, which was decided by 500-odd votes, Gore proclaimed: “For the sake of our unity as a people and the strength of our democracy, I offer my concession.”

    He also cited Democratic Senator Stephen Douglas’ 1860 concession to Republican Abraham Lincoln in his remarks, quoting: “Partisan feeling must yield to patriotism. I’m with you, Mr. President, and God bless you.”

    More on this here: https://www.dw.com/en/concession-speech-trump/a-55530599

    Looks like another hamper will be heading towards NZ. However, I haven’t seen any indication that BC intends to share his ample rewards.

  92. He’s not going to concede, and he never will. But just as with everything else he does, he’s working on ensuring he extracts the maximum personal gain from the situation, and he’s been laying the foundations for that for months, just in case he lost. He may not be able to hang on to power, but he’s establishing a narrative which will provide an income stream for many years to come.

    He’s already fund raising, and you can imagine just how powerful the dreadful injustice handed down to him by Biden is going to loosen those wallets. The rallies will continue, with all that gate money and merchandise. He will “author” more books he’ll never read, and ensure that his lifetime entitlement to security always, always uses Trump properties. He will dangle the prospect of running again in 2024 in front of his disciples as well as his family who have inherited all of his mendacity and will be hoping to get his blessing for a shot at a job he doesn’t really want.

    Trump isn’t interested in politics and isn’t a politician. He’s been a registered Democrate in the past and as recently as 2013 had donated money to Kamala Harris’s Senate camgaign fund. He backed anything he thought might benefit him. He’s going to be a pain to the GOP going forward because he needs the cash and his income stream will be milking the hard right.

    • I agree. He’s setting up his next job. This may possibly be a media boss, setting up his own right wing subscription news channel. According to punditry on MSNBC. And how right they were about the Biden landslide. Anyway…

      If this is the case and if enough of his suitably aggrieved base cough up he could gross about a billion bucks a year. He may be dicky mint now but what with that and sundry book deals and pundit gigs of his own the vile prick can probably keep his golden bog very easily.

    • The Republican Party won’t get any more money from big business until Trump and his cabal are gone now. Too much disruption is bad for business and there is a heap of money to be lost if things get really messy.

      • The elephant in the room is the fuck-up of the administration’s Covid (non-)strategy. No recovery can happen while there’s no coherent plan to deal with it or its economic aftermath.

        Oh sorry, I appear to have posted this on a thread about the US…

      • I’m not so sure Mike. For one thing businesses will look to buy favours from anyone with power and influence, red or blue. The second is that if Trump’s second term seems credible in terms of attracting votes, the money will follow. His low regulation, low ethics “I’m a businessman” manrta will attract money like flies to a two day old turd in the sun.

        • All these threatened lawsuits challenging the vote will cost vast amounts of money. The lawyers on either side will be laughing all the way to the bank but I’m not sure his backers will want to pay the bills for a long-drawn-out fight in the midst of a pandemic. These are serious capitalists motivated by the desire to make money. A lengthy dispute about who is actually in charge would be very bad for business.
          Presumably the US government, not Biden and the Democrats, will be the ones the lawsuits are aimed at, being the ones responsible for the conduct of the election. Trump will have to finance his side of the litigation.

          • Trump and the RNC are cashing in on a major fund raising opportunity. According to Rolling Stone, the names on the GOP mailing list would have received just under 20 e-mails in just one day to “Stop The Steal” and “Fight The Hoax”. In somewhat smaller type they were obliged to point out that there’s a 50/50 split which permits up to half funds raised to be applied existing debt.

            Trump isn’t funding much of this. Of the suits I’ve seen they are local Republican parties suing the bodies accountable for elections at state level. It’s almost wholly for show, and the cases are being tossed as soon as they arrive. But it’s worth GOP support because the long term narrative is to push the idea that the election process can’t be trusted, paving the way for elections to based on Facebook likes.

  93. Was watching CNN last night and they were saying that privately some “senior Republicans” were telling them that whatever Trump is doing is ridiculous, publicly they are supporting him because of fear of repercusssions from his large (crazy) fan base.

  95. Here’s a more cheerful election story.

    “I had no plans to stand for election, until Nikolai Loktev asked me to stand against him,” 35-year old Marina Udgodskaya told reporters in Povalikhino, Kostroma. “He is head of the village, and a member of the ruling United Russia party, and I am his cleaner. He told me one day that, under Russian law, he could not stand for re-election unopposed, so I agreed to help out by being the other candidate. I have no interest in politics, and did absolutely nothing. But people kept coming and voting for me, and I won by 62% to 34%. I’m now the mayor, which is not a turn of events I had expected.
    Refusing the job isn’t an option, because by law I would then have to pay for the entire cost of new elections. But I’ve been a cleaner for years , and I’ve never had anything to do with paperwork. I don’t know what I’m supposed to be doing, so I’ll have to become mayor and then find a way to curtail my own authority. Everything is fine locally, the economy is doing wel, there is lighting and water, and no big problems, so I don’t know why people voted for me. The result was a big shock. Perhaps people wanted to send a message to the Kremlin.”

    ©Rossiyskaya Gazeta, 28/9/20.
    Spotted by Howard Gethin and republished in Private Eye No. 1534, 6th-19th November 2020.

  96. Georgia and Arizona wins confirmed. Biden won fairly big in the end. What say you sceptics who dismissed him as the wrong candidate? Seems like he was exactly the right person who did it the right way.

    • I say it indicates that a U.S. political party might know more about U.S. politics than me.
      Although we can’t be certain that another candidate might not have done just as well by picking up votes elsewhere, it does seem that the orthodox wisdom (and the pressure applied by the black vote* being overwhelmingly for him) of putting in good old middle America Joe paid off.
      (What a strange country the U.S. is – does the phrase “the black vote” mean anything in the U.K.?)

    • I did read somewhere that there is a (conspiracy) theory that Trump will bail, leaving Pence as president for a couple of months purely so that Pence can grant him immunity……

      • From palmerreport:

        “When Donald Trump starts pardoning everyone – and he will in the end – I hope you all won’t start nervously fretting about how it means he’s somehow magically winning. It’ll be the end of him. His pardon spree will be his concession speech, because after that he’ll be toast. And it won’t keep him or his family out of prison on state charges.

        The media has spent the past four years breathlessly hyping the notion that Trump was going to pardon everyone at any minute, so you can be excused if you’re not aware that Trump hasn’t ever pardoned a single one of his co-conspirators. Trump did commute Roger Stone’s sentence, but that’s not a pardon. The pardon spree never did happen. But now it will.

        Trump’s pardon spree will be the absolute end of his fading political viability. Even some fraction of the dummies who just voted for him will decide they’ve seen enough. He knows it too. It’ll be a reminder that he’s not actually going to run in 2024, no matter what he claims.

        No president has ever tried to pardon himself, his family members, or his criminal co-conspirators. So these pardons will all be challenged in court, and there’s no precedent for how it’ll play out. Anyone who claims to know is just guessing. It’ll take years to play out.

        But the point is that pardons aren’t magic wands. They won’t protect anyone on state charges. They may get thrown out in court anyway. And since pardons are admissions of guilt, they’ll open Trump and his people up to all kinds of litigation going forward. In fact, if any of Trump’s underlings accept a pardon, they’ll no longer have any Fifth Amendment protections, and they’ll be required to testify against Trump at trial. It’s a sticky mess that won’t go well for Trump’s side.

        And yes, there’s a hypothetical scenario in which Trump resigns and has Pence pardon him, in the hope that it’ll have a better chance of holding up in court. But even that wouldn’t protect Trump from state charges, which is why he’s going to prison no matter what.

        In any case, only two things matter when it comes to whatever Trump does with pardons: 1) They’ll be a surrender, not a secret magic plan to politically win. 2) They can be worked around with state charges, which can’t be pardoned by any president. He’s still going to prison.”

        • Sorry HPS, but Trump will NOT be going to prison no matter how much you & I want it to happen.

          If for no other reason, how are they going to provide a permanent armed security detail for him if he is in Wormwood scrubs?

          • That’s a good point, JTB, but I do wonder (with precisely no knowledge of judicial procedure in the USA) that his hoped for potential status as a convicted felon strips him of that privilege.

            • I would think protecting his security in prison would be a lot easier (and cheaper) than out in public.
              Two specialist prison officer/bodyguards on duty 24/7 (i.e. six men plus holiday relief) and the job’s done.
              Out in the wider world a lot more people and resources would be needed.
              The right to privacy of an imprisoned convicted felon is severely curtailed anyway, so he could be under close protection at all times even if he doesn’t like it.

              • If he was a normal citizen under as much state and Grand Jury scrutiny, there would be a real chance of court procedure, conviction and punishment. His gang has been imprisoned for lesser crimes – it’s important we don’t forget this. It’s not a vain hope that he gets convicted, it’s a real possibility. Remember when we all believed he couldn’t possibly be president? He has no magic immunity from state crimes, none at all.

                And if he does pardon his cronies – and pardoning thus far has not been a thing for him – by a peculiar quirk of the justice system, that legally obliges them to testify in any trials against Trump, in full. They have no recourse to the Fifth. So anyone Trump pardons could become a key witness against him.

  100. So, 10 days since Joe Biden made it past the 270 marker and POUTUS is still crying in his pram.

    Crucially, nothing has happened. None of his cunning ploys have paid off. The courts and the media pull the rug of logic and law from under his feet on a daily basis. The world looks at this fool for what he is and shakes it’s head.

    When will it sink in that no one that matters cares one iota about him and his feelings now.?

    • What’s amazing is that his supporters are still rooting for him and maintaining the line that the election was a scam. It’s depressing that that line has stuck now. There will be people ten, twenty, thirty years from now still talking about the time the election was stolen from them. Sigh.

  101. If you have the time to spare, and the inclination, legal twitter yesterday was a great place to be. Giuliani had a VERY bad day at the office, and the commentary was top notch.

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