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    • @Lodestone-of-Wrongness

      Well Mr Latest Recotd Project did a few songs with EC at the notorious 1976 Birmingham Odeon show where the Slow-witted one made his infamous Enoch outburst so it might happen…

  3. “The reactions were disastrous,” Clapton said after his AZ vaccinations, “My hands and feet were either frozen, numb or burning, and pretty much useless for two weeks. I feared I would never play again.”
    So then, broadly the same reasons he gave in 2014, on the announcement that he would quit touring and playing live…………..
    Pillock is as pillock does.
    On the question of his beknighted friend from the North, I have put up a seed of suggestion that individuals attending Wickham festival, planned for a fortnights time, might choose to prefer watching Eliza Carthy, on the 2nd stage at the same time as Sir George. I will be.

                • @nigelthebaId I actually don’t know what you mean by your last post.

                  I blocked you on Facebook because you started becoming offensive because I held a different point of view to yours. Instead of accepting that we had different views you made it personal which I thought was out of order.
                  At this time no-one one knows if the govt relaxing of restrictions is right or wrong. You accuse me of being overly optimistic which I hold my hand up to. I didn’t realise it was a fault.
                  Infections have fallen 20 percent in 4 days – it could be a blip or it could be a trend – we don’t know yet.
                  However if we go into the winter season with very low numbers because we have flushed it out now then the strategy was the right one..If we went into the winter with the current numbers I would say we would have a problem.

                  • “Nice to see that this site has become an extension of Facebook.
                    I thought we were better than that.”

                    Before I’d even made a single comment, @SteveT. So it’s clearly not just my opinions you have a problem with.

                    • Funny how the people who can’t have a reasoned discussion and resort to insults are always on the everyone is doomed side..

                    • Nice assumption, @Thegp, except I didn’t insult Steve, unless agreeing with his own assessment that he was selfish for wanting a foreign holiday counts.

                      I’m very careful not to insult people on FB, having received a ban back in January, presumably for telling a CT what I thought of him. (Hard to be sure, as no explanation was given.)

                    • @Nigelthebald I don’t have a problem with anyone having an opinion different to mine but I do have a problem if you disagree with my opinion and then start being personally abusive as you were on Facebook. It’s not on but what disappoints is that you are not big enough to accept that your comments were offensive.
                      Infections rates in UK dropped another 15 percent yesterday so who is to say we haven’t peaked? Or do you just want us to stay in crisis mode and revel in the doom?

        • There’s an ongoing political discussion in Germany about some of the civil rights side-effects of this Corona thing. One is that healthy people who never had a covid infection are suddenly “outsiders” with less opportunities (or “rights”) than others. Especially if they choose not to get vaccinated.

          What Clapton’s opinion on this has to do with Nazi salutes escapes me.

          (BTW, don’t get me started on Eliza Carthy – a couple of years ago she played a wonderful gig in Berlin, where the brilliant music she and her band were playing got spoiled by her simplistic and idiotic pro-Brexit between-song announcements.)

          • I was, rather obscurely, trying to make a point about Rock Gods saying silly if not downright stupid things (like Bowie declaring Britain needs a fascist government so the trains can run on time).
            There is simply no logical reason for people not to get vaccinated. There is simply no reason for people not to wear masks in crowded places. There is simply no reason why people who haven’t taken the opportunity to be vaccinated should not be barred from mixing in crowded places.
            Bingo, as he did with Patel, is playing with semantics claiming “Clapton has every right to say twattish things”. I have every right to call EC a twat not because he’s a twat but because EC claims people who are not safe should have the same freedoms as everyone else

              • We had a conversation about this a few years back. I remember the Enoch Powell ‘rivers of blood’ speech although I was not old enough to be politically active at the time. He was an obnoxious man with unsavoury views but if you actually look at the core of the speech he made he was warning that uncontrolled immigration would lead to civil unrest which is exactly what happened in many of the inner cities in this country. Yes he exaggerated it but we cant deny that some of his fears didn’t happen just because we didn’t like his views.

                • When I read the Birmingham speech, I’m reading a prominent British politician essentially suggesting that everyone in my immediate family, bar my father should be induced to “return home”.

                  I’m reading a speech that is the Rosetta Stone of an awful lot of truly horrible stuff I heard said about my mother and other family members growing up, and that made this country materially harder to live in for people who had lawfully migrated here. A speech that had terribly negative echoes through British culture for many years after.

                  On that basis, it doesn’t really matter to me whether some of his fears came to pass. To me, the core of the speech is that I don’t belong in the only country I’ve ever lived in, and that it would be better if I left. What he said is so profoundly horrible, and its legacy so utterly toxic, that I don’t think it’s a question of simply disliking his views, or looking past some unfortunate phrasing to find useful truths.

                  I do think it’s important we talk about immigration in this country, and that we allow people to argue the point in both directions, but I really really really don’t think rehabilitating Enoch Powell, or looking to him for wisdom, is going to help us move forward at this point.

                  That’s about as polite as I can be on the subject.

                  • @Bingo-Little sincere apologies – there was absolutely no intention on my part to rehabilitate Enoch Powell. I grew up in 60’s Birmingham and saw first hand the vile racism as the 60’s turned into the 70’s – the skinhead movement and random beatings because of the colour of someone’s skin.
                    I grew up with a Jamaican schoolfriend being my best mate for quite a number of years until we left school. I also loved going to the Blues parties in Handsworth when a work colleague had a Jamaican boyfriend. We had a great time with great people.
                    I am immensely proud of Birmingham for how it has become one of the culturally most diverse cities in the country not for how it was when the whole country was grappling with racism.
                    We still have issues in this country and I am immensely grateful that the young people are trying to banish the hatred for good.
                    I wasn’t looking to him for wisdom in any way because I do not subscribe to his ‘wisdom’. I was merely commenting that the particular ‘rivers of blood’ comment was prophetic unfortunately. However that could be attributed to an incitement so I can equally understand that he should have been gagged.

                    • Cheers, Steve. It was my assumption there was no malicious intent, but I appreciate the kind words above.

                      One thing I didn’t add in my post is this. When I read through the speech again it also reminds me that the work of proving Powell wrong is ongoing. We should never take it for granted that it’s easy for people of different cultures to slot in and live alongside one another (whether they’re the natives or the newcomers) – it can be bloody difficult for all parties. Sometimes difficult because of ill-intent, but often difficult because it requires good communication and patience. There will always be friction points, but the onus is on us as a community to show that it can be done and can ultimately be supremely additive, per the excellent examples you give above.

                      I’ve seen some really horrible racism in this country at times, and I do think there’s a seam of thought – which can be traced directly back to Powell but which originated long before him – which occasionally bubbles unpleasantly to the surface and needs to be resisted. However, I think it’s equally important to recognise and appreciate how far we’ve come in lots of areas, and how often support for multi-culturalism comes from sources you’d never have expected.

                      My belief is that we’ll get to where we need to be with all of it, so long as we listen to and tolerate one another. When it comes to difference, dialogue is everything.

                    • If you want to feel better about the rocky road to multiculturalism in this country, just compare us to France. It’s basically apartheid with a soupcon of leftie self-righteousness.

                    • Yes (in reply to Moose). I had a rare sensible conversation with Offspring the Elder the other day, along the lines of “if you want to know how racist England was in the 1970s, it’s like Lille is now” (my BIL lives in a market town outside Lille which had posters of Marine Le Pen on every board the last time we visited).

                      There’s something on iPlayer about race by that bloke, you know the one. Yes, him.

                • Well, he got what he wanted. The unrest happened, partly, because people like Powell made it perfectly clear to black people that they weren’t wanted here and this wasn’t their country. He made the racism of the police respectable. Brutalised and without hope of even the most basic kind of justice, black people responded in the only way they felt was available to them.

                  His comment about “the black man will hold the whip hand” is very telling. In his version of race relations there has to be a whip – the idea of equality just doesn’t exist.

                  It all happened because he liked the sound of his own voice too much and wanted to be noticed. A very intelligent man but utterly poisonous because of his ego and his carelessness.

                  • I saw him in action in parliament when I found out at about the age of 15 that you can just turn up to the House of Commons and watch from the Public Gallery. I did that quite a few times in the early 80s and found the whole thing fascinating.

                    In one sparsely-attended debate, Enoch Powell stood up and spoke with such misplaced gravitas and pomposity that I found myself wondering if he was taking the piss. Older readers may remember Leonard Sachs – well, take away his charm and command of the English language and that was what Powell brought to the table. It was embarrassing but the House seems to accommodate such nonsense to this day. Having said that, it was notable that the House emptied out as he rose to speak and took the opportunity for a toilet break or a heavily subsidised double scotch at the bar.

                  • Point of order; the ‘whip hand’ comment was a quote from one of his constituents. Powell’s mistake with respect to that hateful remark was in describing the fellow as ‘decent and ordinary’.

                    The great failure of his analysis is in the fact that he turns to repatriation as the solution to avoiding the trouble he forsees. It leads the reader to conclude that Powell’s own prejudice is showing through, and that that is why his call to action is a call for the wholly wrong sort of action.

                    He should have asked himself how he could bring about the education of the ‘decent and ordinary’ constituent so that they no longer held such poisonous, bigoted and ignorant attitudes.

                • Seriously Steve, read the speech. He dresses his argument in reasoned tones and in anecdotes about his ordinary honest citizen constituents but it’s out and out racism, stoking fears that the black immigrants will take everything from the indigenous white people, and should be refused access to come in, and actively encouraged to go home. And actually although of course there are race tensions in this country, I don’t think his ‘rivers of blood’ predictions have come true at all. This is still recognisably the UK for better or worse, and much of the best things about it have been actively improved by the immigrant populations of the last sixty years rather than the reverse.

                  • It was an appalling speech made by a Victorian man who was out of touch with this country even when he made it.

                    It’s a shame that posterity continues to call it the ‘rivers of blood’ speech, though, as that is an exaggerated representation of what the Virgil quote was meant to imply.

                    It’s worth reflecting upon the fact that significant numbers of working people felt motivated to stand up and support the man and his views after he had been sacked.

                    • Even to this day, you get the odd saloon-bar ignoramus telling anyone who’ll listen that “Enoch was right!”. Quite a legacy.

            • “There is simply no reason why people who haven’t taken the opportunity to be vaccinated should not be barred from mixing in crowded places.”

              You don’t think there’s any room for discussion on that point? No potential negative consequences, moral considerations or civil rights implications from barring the unvaccinated from public spaces? No possibility of any valid arguments coming from the other direction, or things we should watch out for? Just a black and white issue?

              Well done, if so. I’m OK with vaccine passports, but I don’t think it’s a simple discussion, by any means, and I can respect people who take the other view. Whether people should be getting vaccinated – that’s different, it’s a slam dunk.

              As with the Patel discussion, you’re misunderstanding and therefore mis-characterising my point, which is essentially that not everything is a culture wars football match. Sometimes we can just say “I don’t agree with you, but I get why you might feel that”.

              Clapton, the ocean-going prick that he is, hasn’t said anything in the article in the OP that’s particularly wild or unacceptable, as far as I can see. That’s not semantics – in fact, it’s quite the opposite.

              • Yes, no room for discussion after nearly two years of discussion. Nothing to do with Cultural wars or freedom to have differing opinions. Everything to do with right and wrong.
                It is wild and unacceptable to say ” You can come into my crowded home whether or not you’ve been vaccinated”. Like drunk driving, go ahead and kill yourself if you want, just don’t take any innocents along with you.
                And I was Wrong to bring up Patel again – let sleeping twats lie. Sorry.

                • https://thelogicofscience.com/2021/03/02/the-problems-with-anti-vaccers-precautionary-principle-arguments/

                  “If your concern is really that there might be currently unknown long-term damage, then really think about which of the following is more likely to cause such damage: a vaccine that has been well-tested and simply stimulates your immune system and prepares it to fight a single pathogen, or a deadly virus that sets off a cytokine storm and is known to cause serious damage to your heart, lungs, and other organs. Which one actually seems riskier to you?

                  Part of the problem here is that we often perceive a decision not to take action as the safe option or “erring on the side of caution,” but that’s not always true. Not taking action still has risks, and taking action is not automatically “erring on the side of caution.” The precautionary principle no longer applies to approved vaccines because they have already passed testing. At this point, it is a simple matter of risk assessment, and the risks from not vaccinating are far higher than the risks from vaccinating.”

                  • No worries re: Patel.

                    Not going to labour this one, but I think you have to distinguish a belief no one should take the vaccine (per pawforthought’s helpful article posted below) and a belief that those who haven’t had the vaccine shouldn’t be allowed to participate in public life (per the OP article).

                    One of those arguments seems a lot simpler/less objectionable than the other, to me.

                    Doesn’t really matter though; per the below, Clapton appears to hold both views. With that information now provided, the position is a bit different.

          • @fatima-Xberg Exactly – she is hardly the opposite of Clapton/Morrison.
            It is interesting because Springsteen always portrayed as a man of the people, friend of blue collar workers yet in his Broadway show freely admits it is all an act.
            I think far better to accept the music and switch off the rest of the nonsense.

            • I’ve had a “couple” of glasses of wine but By God, Steve T, you don’t half talk some shite. Bingo has just demolished your “” Enoch had a point” bollox – time to call it a day? Love, Peace and Jaffa Cakes

              • I haven’t demolished anything. I’m offering Steve an alternative point of view, not trying to win an argument.

                He can take it or ignore it, either is fine, but it’s not an adversarial thing, unlike Mariah Carey versus the Beatles, which is a blood feud I will take to my grave.

              • @Lodestone-of-Wrongness I have only just seen your comment on here now – and also Bingo’s.
                I have apologised to Bingo because it wasnt a ‘Enoch had a point comment’ more what he said became true which is not the same.
                Sorry for talking ‘shite’ I am obviously not as eloquent as your goodself but hopefully there is a place for all of us on here with varying degrees of literary ability.

          • Perhaps Carthy saves her pro-Brexit comments for overseas gigs. A succession of comments on her Twitter account spread over a number of years suggests a very different view. For example this, from 27 May 2018 “One of the consequences of Brexit for travelling small businesses like myself…that would be no free movement, no doing my job. British musicians are respected all over Europe, but for how much longer if we can’t travel? ”

            Or this from 2019 “Leaving Cork is hard. I’ll admit I just had a bit of a cry…who on earth would want to make it more difficult to inhabit the same space as our families and ancestors? ….” or “only Labour has any other policy than Brexit. So many shortsighted people…” or “We talk about the fishing here in Whitby a lot. There’s no doubt the Cod Wars cut a swathe through our community, but in my opinion the solution is not Brexit, but a better CFP” or “Your working class Northern community is going to be utterly shafted by Brexit. How many jobs have been lost in the North-East alone already? Liverpool? Our farmers in Yorkshire are sh*tting themselves as they realise what losing their EU subsidies & foreign workers is doing”.

  6. I bow to no one in my dislike of Eric Clapton; personally think the stuff he came out with in the 70s was utterly unforgivable, no matter how pissed he was.

    That said, having read this article, I’m not sure I understand the opprobrium in this instance.

    Has he said something else on the matter, or is it just viewed as unacceptable to disagree with the concept of vaccine passports? I have no problem with them personally, but I can very well understand how others might disagree – it doesn’t strike me as an entirely mental position to take.

    • Incorrect … you now have to bow to me… I’ve been waiting for an excuse and now anything on CD by the twat (post-Yardbirds) is finally going to the charriddee. Got some lame Cream stuff on the dreaded vinly too.

      Much beloved of fellow musicians (the kiss of death), I always rather think of him as living throughout the 60s in 1975. So far ahead of the game, he was dreary before people knew pop music could actually be dreary.

  7. Joking aside, I don’t understand the problem here. Is it a “how dare you take away my freedom” thing? In which case surely venues are at liberty (SWITD?) to choose what their door policy is? In which case Eric, play at venues with a more welcoming one.

    I am clearly just a simple country boy, this is all very confusing.

  8. Isn’t just a bums on seats thing? Presumably he wants to sell as many tickets as possible. These passports will put a lot of folk off, even if a good majority of his demographic will be double-jabbed.

    You go and see Eric or Van at your own risk at the best of times.

  9. The mention of AZ side-effects seems significant; is he suggesting that gig-goers shouldn’t get vaccinated at all?

    I had two AZ shots with no side-effects at all, so I’m happy to play his gigs for him. I used to do a passable Hideaway.

  11. I met a friend last night who I hadn’t seen since March last year. He is not vaccinated and has little intention to get vaccinated. Says he’s not at risk from Covid and is more worried about potential issues that we are as yet currently not fully aware of. He is a youngish, healthy guy (45 or so) with 4 children, said he definitely won’t allow his children to get it. We were going to go to a concert together next month across the still closed border, almost certainly if it were to open you would need to be vaccinated and also possibly for entry to the concert. So that would appear to be off.

    He’s not a twat and I like him a lot. Extremely intelligent guy, he is not an “anti-vaxer” in general but he believes everything has been rushed through in order to save healthcare and the economy and has fears of what shortcuts have taken to get us there (or almost there). He has worked from home for years and has hardly seen anybody outside his family since this started. He wears a mask when necessary and social distances.

    We have been bombarded with so much information that seems to change from day to day that I can have some sympathy with the odd reluctant person. It is a personal decision and the fact that we get mobbish behaviour (on both sides) is disappointing.

    Here’s an example below of newish news about vaccine effectiveness, maybe we will all need vaccines for ever and this is going to be very difficult to organise on an annual or bi-annual basis when the cases from the nth wave go through the roof.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/22/uk-scientists-back-covid-boosters-as-study-finds-post-jab-falls-in-antibodies

    I am “fully” vaccinated

      • How old are his children? If I suggested to my daughter that she couldn’t have the vaccine she would have quite rightly told me to bugger off.
        The delta variant currently accounts for 95 percent of the infections in this country which suggests the first virus is beaten. 80 percent of those in hospital are under 30 and either only single jabbed or not jabbed at all. Telling your offspring they cant have the jab doesn’t seem to be a massively sensible thing to do.

        • Well what is “massively sensible”, not sure anybody can be 100% sure? I think on balance the vaccine is the right approach, but nobody can say for sure there is zero long term risk, unlike say MMR where there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

          I don’t agree with him but appreciate his concerns and his rights to do what he thinks is best for his own family. Show me the person who had the vaccine 2 or 3 years ago where some potential long term effects could be observed. Also consider the massive issues with mental health that teenagers have been going through (something close to my heart, unfortunately).

          Should also say that Canada has, I believe, overtaken the UK for vaccines from a slow start, we currently have 140 people in hospital provincially (out of 15 million) and in this city of 1 million, precisely zero hospitalisations. I know of nobody personally in Canada who has had Covid, where as I know of quite a few who got it in the UK (the original variant, not defeated, but mutated). Yes, vaccines work in this current state of the pandemic.

          What gets my goat is keyboard warriors calling people “twats”, “morons” etc. Plenty of evidence nearby. One guy was castigating people who were sitting on a beach last year, the camera angle was deceptive, they were actually more than 2 metres apart and I believe a subsequent investigation decided nobody more than usual had been infected there. He needed to weigh in with his opinions about how moronic everybody was even though I doubt many of them were reading The Afterword. It ends up being superior, sneering, condescending and judgemental behaviour, not a good look.

          Things like huge indoor parties in areas of high transmission is, I would agree, a different matter. Also piling 65,000 into Wembley and 130,000 at Silverstone may appear to be something of a risk.

          • MMR – “enty of evidence to the contrary”? Yeah, if you accept the findings of a disgraced struck-off charlatan. I can’t believe this conversation is actually taking place. Next you’ll be telling me Fernando is the best pop song ever

          • Dont disagree with any of your comments @dai although regarding the number of vaccines I think Canada might still be a way behind. My counterparts in the office of my Canadian agent are in the same age group as me and 3 of them have only had first jab.
            A friend told me that Germany had reached the same level of jabs as the UK until I reminded him that Germany population was about 16 million more than ours
            Delta variant definitely more transmissable here – we have a few people off work with it although symptoms appear largely mild.

            • 80/60% 1st and 2nd doses for Canadian population older than 12. Higher than that in Ontario/Ottawa @SteveT And has been going up 5% a week for 2nd doses, maybe slowing down now.

              • Not dissimilar to UK – just strange that 2 people I know in 60’s in Toronto still haven’t had their second jab.
                First doses in UK slowing down now as we get to those who don’t want it. Think we are at 87 percent which is probably about 8 percent below the target.
                My daughter is 22 and has just moved her second jab forward by 3 weeks which suggests there is now more capacity than demand.

              • Don’t start again. All those people had to get there before they could loll about. And when they left they had to go home. But when they did so they left behind their litter and their excreta. My brother in law was one of those who cleared up after them. Hence they were, and are, dumb ass morons. No excuses.

                  • Oh dear. My post this time last year was about the gross American idiots on the clip I posted from the USA – the Dorset flockings of the great unwashed was merely a side issue in the OP, cross-referring to the disquiet that was circulating at the time after the coast got swamped.

                    The ‘beach super-spreader’ fears to which you refer above were legitimate fears at the time; and the timeline the article reveals shows clearly that it took another several months before the evidence suggested that those fears did not amount to much.

                    None of which changes the fact that the behaviour of many of the British left the south coast in an appalling state that took several days to clear up, making them home grown dumb ass morons.

                  • You don’t need to “feel so superior” to people who turn up, cover a beach with litter and excreta and then fuck off home, leaving the clearup for others. If that sort of behaviour ain’t your style then you know in your heart that you ARE superior.

  12. As a side point…

    As a white cis male I am lucky to lead a generally pleasant existence on Twitter, I try to be generally pleasant myself. Last Friday night I put out a tweet about Eric C that had a mild piece of joshing in it and about half a dozen dudes (it’s always dudes) start having a go. Very odd, but not surprising that they were EC fans. Humourless sods.

  17. Anyone thinking back to those half-forgotten days of yore, when posts weren’t just spats, they were out and out war, flounces, leading to droves leaving the site, often for more than just half an hour. I would like to believe that my chums @stevet and @nigelthebald could happily sit and enjoy a drink together, despite their disagreements. Maybe. Provided we don’t talk about “it”……

  18. I think he’s plain wrong but He’s as entitled to his ridiculous opinion as anyone else. Interestingly he has left himself plenty of get out room by saying he won’t play any venue which requires people to be vaccinated or which discriminates. Given that any policy currently gives room for people who have not been vaccinated if they have the antibodies, have a health reason not to have the vaccine, or have had a recent negative test, he should be on safe ground. Admittedly Johnson’s recent pronouncement on night clubs suggested they might not allow the negative test option, but I doubt Eric will be playing any such venue any time soon.

      • I think he’s flat wrong, and a berk, but if you think the science of this pandemic is in any way settled, constant, monolithic or not a matter for debate, I don’t know what to tell you. You seem to want everything to be wrong or right, good guys or bad guys, when the most cursory inspection of what The Science has variously told us since January of last year or so would reveal that the consensuses have shifted wildly since day 1.

        It’s not entirely unreasonable to have some nagging discomfort with the lack of long-term data on these vaccines. I personally don’t feel that way, and I think it’s the wrong call to then use that kind of discomfort as a reason to not get jabbed, but something can be both wrong and reasonable / understandable.

        I’ve been double jabbed. I would encourage everyone to do the same. I’m agnostic-to-positive on vaccine passports. But I don’t think everyone who disagrees with me is a fuckwit, and I certainly don’t pretend to understand “the science” fully enough to feel qualified to pour contempt on anyone who doesn’t.

        Antivaxxers, conspiracy theorists, Tories and other assorted MONSTERS aren’t going to change their behaviour by being hectored by people who barely understand the world any better than they do, but who like to act otherwise.

          • Honestly Hedgepig, I’m not saying I am better than anyone else and I’m not claiming The Science has got everything right.
            But, as per the article I quoted above, there comes a point when any rational person looks at all the available evidence we have today re vaccinations and says “For my good, for your good, the dangers of not being vacced far outweigh the possibility of long term risks of being vacced”.

    • That’s it. I’m putting a tinfoil hat on and joining the doctor-hangers in Trafalgar Square. I assume they’re still there from yesterday, none of them will have found their way home because they don’t trust maps.

      Woahhh -Pieeeeerrrrs- Corrrrrrr-byn!

      • Isn’t odd though how none of the bigwigs at these rallies ever get sick. It’s like they’re being protected by some vast shadowy cabal whose tentacles are everywhere!

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