Junglejim on How far is too far?
Enjoyed the movie Whiplash, excellent screenplay, direction and performances, and am curious on the thoughts of the Massive on what I took to be its central question: how far or can or should one go in the pursuit of excellence and whether the price paid is worth it, particularly in the field of music.
Can a mentor justify pushing a pupil to absolute breaking point in attempting to achieve ‘perfection’? Few would question this motivational approach in sports training ( particularly in endurance events), but in music? especially the branch of music featured in the film, with its unique history? And does technical prowess offer any hope of worthwhile output?
I was also taken with the fact that it centres on a jazz drummer, aspiring to the technical heights of Buddy Rich. Rich has an interesting place on the pantheon on drumming, and jazz specifically. I know nobody who questions his preeminent ability and there’s no shortage of available footage that leaves one thoroughly impressed, but I also don’t know any one who likes jazz that actually listens to his music or would put any of his albums in their personal top 10s or top 20s.
Rich was obviously a great showman, billed throughout his life as the ‘ World’s Greatest Drummer’ and is credited with liberating drummers from being anonymous keepers of the beat to recognisable performers. He could also be argued to being almost as much of a freak as a musician. Playing to paying customers before he was two years old, his schtick was always ‘ wow, look at that’. I’ve occasionally thought ( rather guiltily) that maybe his talents were akin to the football keepy uppy ‘ geniuses’ who delight half time crowds with their skills, but who are seldom seen later as successful players.
I guess what I’m clumsily driving at is – is there any point or value to being impressive within an art form whose prime purpose is to somehow move people, if most of them remain impressed on one level but emotionally remain indifferent – and as any fule kno, the opposite of love isn’t hate, it’s indifference.
Does a 4 chord punk band that moves its’ audience deserve any less respect than a conservatory trained supergroup of prodigies who are technically perfect but leave most folk cold?
Well, whaddya think?
I prefer Buddy Miles. I’m not sure about whether or not I’ll go to see Whiplash. From the snippets I’ve seen it looks like the old bullying staff sergeant, feeble wannabe, ridiculously tough training, emergence of finished soldier meme, played out in a rehearsal room. I’ve seen that film many times already and I’m bored with it. Is the film worth eyeball time?
Although it’s well made and well acted I found it a bit silly. Very much ‘Rocky’ on drums, right down to the ‘sweat-flying-from-the-forehead-in-slow-motion’ shots.
It’s on now. I can’t believe anyone ever took this seriously. Is it meant to be funny? It’s like Blades of Glory with drumsticks.
Yes.
It’s excellent, campy fun – it’s knowing enough that it mines the seam you describe above while also subtlety differentiating itself. It also has the best ending I’ve seen in a good long while.
Regarding the OP, if it moves you, it moves you. I will take prime Piet Mondrian over Michelangelo any day of the week.
Haven’t seen Whiplash,, but would like to. This article about trying out for the Boston Symphony Orchestra is interesting:
http://www.bostonmagazine.com/2012/06/boston-symphony-orchestra-audition/
(Having a wee bit of posting trouble here – can’t seem to be sure which post I’m replying. to)
but to answer Foxy, I agree with Bingo, it knows it’s OTT – we literally get blood, sweat & of course tears – but I think Kermode had a point in essentially saying ‘ it’s a drumming film that’s not really about drumming’ – it could be violin , or ballet or a spelling bee or Tony Pullis drilling his midfield & defence -and the 99% perspiration, 1% inspiration notion we’re familiar with.
I guess that’s why I found jazz as the means of telling the tale curious. The mentor as one point says ( paraphrasing) ‘ that’s why jazz is dying because no-one’s prepared to push themselves like Bird did anymore’. I was immediately struck that the torturous discipline needed to be a classical virtuoso is self evident but can jazz really exist in a conservatory environment possibly estranged from the environment , people & painful history that gave birth to it? It wasn’t just the skills of the players that created jazz but a whole lot more besides it seems to me.
Cinema that can prompt a bit of pondering along these lines justifies itself wholeheartedly in my book .
I think that’s spot on. For what it’s worth, the repetitive, prescriptive nature the music left me cold… probably not the reaction they were looking for. All skill with no feel.
*seriously considers catching this at the flicks*
It’s not my tempo
I didn’t much like it – listening to incessant ride cymbal abuse on airline headphones may have influenced this (every tune sounded like Waterfalls). It’s basically The Karate Kid with paradiddles, but the ending is great. SPOILER ALERT that smile – is it Thank you or F&ck you?
The Karate Kid with paradiddles. That’s much better.
(MILD SPOILER)
Loved the movie, and thought the answer to the central question was pretty clear: the teacher’s behaviour can’t justified, because it was clearly causing pscyhological distress and creating casualties among his pupils.
As for jazz drummers, I’ve always thought that those who do some imaginative stick beating to complement the rest of the band – Jack de Johnette has been the prime exponent over the years – far surpass thosee – like Buddy Rich – who want to take over. And my one complaint about the movie is one of my recurring complaints about music – there’s no valid reason for a five minute drum solo.
DO TOAD!
Well… what is perfection? Listening to a lot of music I’d say its subjective, and therefore pushing someone towards it just isn’t acceptable, as your definition will inevitably be different.
As to the other Whiplash issue… my only problem was with the newspaper “i” that reported that it was good to see JK Simmons recognised for playing his character, as he was usually known for portrayals of “genial, kindly characters”… anyone who has ever seen Oz will know this couldn’t be further from the truth!
He will always, always, always be Schillinger to me. Always.
Aside from Schillinger, his J .Jonah Jameson wasn’t too cuddly either. A neat parallel there, I’m sure you’ll agree.
As I may have said before, it’s essentially An Officer and a Gentleman, with jazz.
**spoilers below**
While beautifully shot, I found the film ultimately unsatisfying, as the outrageous behaviour of the JK Simmons character goes unchallenged – and largely unexplained. We get his weak argument that the worst two words in the English language are “good job” and that is it. I would have preferred some challenge to a character who clearly has a pathological personality disorder of some sort.
I’ve seen the trailer twice and know I will hate it. Most jazz musicians I know either hate it or think it’s a complete joke or walk out in anger.
OTOH film people I respect like it. But I know I will just not be able to get past the musical absurdities.
I looked at the trailers for this and thought ‘a film about a drum solo, lovely, must see that’.
yes.
I don’t work with a lot of jazz players – but I do with some – and every musician I know loves the film.
Personally I have no need to technical ability unless it is matched with an equal amount of soul.