Prompted by the tragic death of Neil Kulkarni last week and then subsequently listening to Neil on the live Chart Music show recorded a week or so earlier, I’ve been mulling over the key components of a great podcast. Neil’s death really hit me, and I think it’s because I had mentally cast him as one of my close friends. It surprised me that a podcast could generate this level of emotion.
I must have sampled hundreds of podcasts over the last 15 years, but at any time there are usually only a half dozen I actively follow. Most of the rest are perfectly fine, but I seem to lose interest or forget about most of them.
So here are the common elements I can identify (and there are many exceptions):
1. It needs to have an ensemble cast. This is hugely important to me. I want to hear unscripted banter between people on topics I find interesting (pretty obviously replacing the banter I’m lacking in my own life). Some single host, scripted podcasts are great (Cautionary Tales, for example) but they are more like great radio documentaries or audiobooks, and most of the time I would rather just read the content.
2. Two or three is the perfect number of hosts. Four very occasionally (only example I can think of is No Such Thing As a Fish). Single, rambling hosts are a nightmare.
3. Each cast member must have a unique voice, both figuratively and physically. I have sampled way too many podcasts that are obviously started by a group of mates and there will be six samey voices, half of them undifferentiated with nothing interesting to say.
4. I need to like the hosts as people. Listening to an ensemble podcast is like being on a long train journey sat next to a group of friends chatting. If you like them and they are having an engaging conversation, you are happy to listen. I have dropped many podcasts because I don’t like one of the hosts. Even the mighty Chart Music suffers from this with various host combinations. Neil was one of the carbon rods that could offset this.
5. They have to be smart, knowledgable and funny. If I’m thinking of funnier lines then them then they are gone.
6. Beware any podcast hosted by improv/stand up comedians. They engage in competitive conversation and are very rarely funny. Be extra cautious if they are from LA. They talk in ‘LA stand-up voice’. I could write a whole post about how unfunny most stand-up comedy is. I think most people agree that improv is just collective therapy for extroverts.
So let’s look at some of the podcasts I’ve loved over the years:
-The Word, obvs. plus various spin offs.
-Adam and Joe. Wonderful. Standard car soundtrack for long family drives.
-Chart Music. Infrequent but very long (6hrs +). When Taylor Parkes is on it is peerless (especially with Neil).
-Nothing is Real (Get cracking lads! The year is 1/12th over.)
-The truth about vintage amps – A Q & A about, er, vintage amps, hotel by two very likeable chaps.
-Fret Files – Same, but questions about guitar repair. This one is a good litmus test, because sometimes there is only one host. The episodes with two are far more enjoyable.
-No Such Thing as a Fish: The rare four-hoster that works. James Harkin is genuinely quick and hilarious.
-Witch House Media – Used to be the Lovecraft podcast but has spread its wings. Fun episodes. Breaks my LA improv rule.
– Game Brain – The only board-game podcast I listen to now (most suffer from points 3 and 4 above). It has a revolving cast who present in 2s or 3s. They are all very insightful, but as is de rigueur for any large ensemble cast, there is one complete berk amongst them.
I used to enjoy Mayo and Kermode, but it became too cutesy, self referential and smug. Haven’t listened for a decade or so. See also That Pedal Show in the YouTube world. I used to like the Cracked podcast years ago when it had Jack O’Brian and Jason Pargin (David Wong). It then descended into a showcase for LA comedians (ironic because Jason Pargin was a vocal stand-up hater).
You’ll also note that I’m not a big fan of interview-style podcasts. There are also a bunch I haven’t listed here that are more like lectures (Dan Carlin etc). I enjoy these in the right context, but I tend to dip in every year or two and just pick out episodes that interest me.
Interesting post – thanks. I think you’re right – one person’s voice on a podcast hardly ever works. It’s far better when people bounce off each other.
I had a short illness a couple of years ago and Chart Music got me through it. I love how enthusiastic and knowledgeable Al Needham is and he is also very quick-witted. He often chips in with a zinger that takes me a few seconds to “get”. So in real life, I’d be laughing several seconds later after everyone else has moved on. I’m sorry about this, but I’m not on Team Taylor Parkes. You can only go so far with a withering tone of voice. He is endearingly self-deprecating but I can’t help visualising Will Self when he speaks . Although he did make me laugh loudly when he sternly said to a co-presenter “If you can’t say something nice, then don’t say anything at all” (he slags off people at great length).
By the way, my beef with Melody Maker was the writers told us very frequently that their group was hugely influential, famous and witty. A Shakin’ Algonquin Round Table, if you will.
The ability to “deep dive” like they do is great. 6 or 7 hours on one episode of Top of the Pops is absolutely fine by me.
Similarly, Andy Dawson and Sam Delaney of Top Flight Time Machine can go to extraordinarily long deep dives – getting stuck into a D-list celebrity’s autobiography, for example. Really stupid and very entertaining.
The Rest Is…(Politics, history, entertainment, football) are all good. Particularly Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell. The fact that their political careers are relatively recent makes their thoughts on political matters very insightful.
The death of Neil Kulkarni has shook me up, quite honestly. We were about the same age and apparently shared a few cultural experiences (like discovering obscure psychedelic pop in the dire 1980s); I followed his reviews in The Wire magazine, and of course I loved the Chart Music podcast. One day, I will listen to them again but I am not ready yet.
As to your question, there are too many podcasts to follow, and apparently the commercial market is breaking up. Nevertheless, I like Adam Buxton’s interviews for the amiable rapport he can (on a good day) find with a guest: the Richard E Grant interview was lovely as you could hear Grant warm to AB and let his guard down. Jim Irvin’s “Your Not on the List” (guests discuss a forgotten album) has several good moments but seems to be on hiatus. Conan O’Brien has reinvented himself as a loquacious podcaster on “Needs A Friend” and can be hilarious if you’re partial to US comedy (Kevin Nealon, Jim Gaffigan, Audrey Plaza, and Bob Newhart were very good guests). Avoid the Russell Brand episode. Steve Richard’s “Rock N Roll Politics” is a terrible title, but is an engaging centre-left weekly dispatch on Westminster. Maybe what I am saying is that i like a certain lightness of touch.
I dislike overt poshness and smugness, especially the British sort. Let’s leave it at that.
Don’t know why it is, but I just can’t do podcasts that originate from the USA – UK (and Irish) ones are no problem, but the hern hern hern of continued yankeebabble just curdles my ears…sorry, guys!
For the most part I listen to UK and Irish based podcasts but try The Flop House – a US podcast where they talk about a terrible movie. It meets Podicles criteria regarding hosts – three people with individual voices and a good sense of humor. I think they are writers for The Tonight Show or one of those late night shows. Elliot Kalan can be very funny.
They do live shows as well, but I find that the conversation can be a little forced on a live podcast recording – as we discovered when we went to an Off-menu show. I think I prefer the studio bound episodes.
Content is king.
My experience is that I tire of podcasts with regular hosts only, after a certain time, with their in-jokes, their recurring hobby horses. I know what they are going to say about x event before they say it. The worn out ideas that overstay their welcome like the Stackwaddy Game. My bad. I know these people are doing their best to come up with fresh content, to entertain and The Word guys have enhanced my spare time in many ways.
I think Is It Rolling Bob? works but it depends on the guest as does Word In Your Ear. Often writers are better guests because they can do words, have something to say that’s worth hearing. Musicians can be embarrassingly inarticulate and dull, as can other celebs.
The Album Years, which is Steven Wilson and his mate (sorry forgot his name) discussing a certain year and their personal pick of album releases, is enjoyable, That’s because they don’t necessarily pick the obvious choices and they are smart guys who are worth listening to. They speak up for maligned records the critics didn’t appreciate. They can articulate why x is good and y sucks. The range of music is broad, from Abba to Aardvark.
Am I the only person in the world who doesn’t listen to podcasts? Do Wordle, flick through AW, read Guardian and Times, go for walk, listen to some music whilst cooking, bit of evening telly, go to bed, flick through AW, fall asleep…..
You’re not alone – me neither.
Like when is there time, is my constancy around podcasts? I fear that, if I began, I would sink into myriad rabbit holes that would leave me even less time to do everything else. Even if much the everything else is busy doing nothing.
I listen when commuting, when exercising and when doing grocery shopping.
Go for walk? Where you go? You go far? Me not know!
I talk to the dogs on walks.
I don’t have a dog but there does seem to me something indecent about wearing ‘phones or buds when you’re out walking the wee critters. I mean, what if he or she suddenly needs to tell you something? They don’t know BSL, you know.
I wonder how many listeners Mayo and Kermode have lost since moving from the BBC? They presumably do more of their own thing (probably not to the improvement of the product), get more money for doing it, but audience numbers must be considerably down.
That was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. I’d listened pretty much uninterrupted since 2005, endured the extended version with all the self-indulgences and self-congratulations, the stupid episode with Charlie Kaufmann over Anomalisa (shout out to @Arthur-Cowslip – 4 more years!), Kermode’s tropes and Mayo’s prickliness. To have all that and adverts was just too much. 2+ years with no knowledge of the film world is a shame, but I can live with it.
Erm … aren’t the film reviewy bits and interviews from the Kermode & Mayo podcast available on YouTube? Or am I getting confused here…?
https://www.youtube.com/@kermodeandmayostake/videos
Probably, but in my view podcasts are audio only – things to be listened to when doing mundane tasks – washing up, ironing, cycling to work. I rarely get time to sit down in my time outside work before bed, so podcasts are a great stop/start accompaniment to the day.
I have about six hours of listening time a week, I’m not going to spend any of it listening to two blokes sniggering in a cupboard.
I’m not surprised – it must be a tight fit for the three of you.
It’s a sandwich!
Where’s the beetroot?
It does, rather
Moose – you are beautiful – and how considerate of you to hold the shaft of one of the blokes’ mikes while they snigger.
Those aren’t microphones….!
….see the Bears game last night? What a game!
Podcasts are largely for commuters and travellers I reckon. Andrew Hickey’s 500 songs is essential even if you don’t fall into either category.
At the risk of getting too self-referential, I’d like to mention The Afterword podcasts – I don’t think I’ve heard one which hasn’t been interesting and enjoyable…thanks guys!
Crawler.
You know it!
Actually, recently I relistened to the HMHB one having recommended it to my brother and it’s great, entirely due to the guests bringing out their enthusiasm for the topping subject.
Topping ? Goodness, what a wide-ranging discussion….
Fitter wins.
Huzzah!
Interesting post, @Podicle – thanks!
I like point 1 (ensemble casts) as well, though with point 3 (unique voices), a series I tuned into (Crazytown) with 3 US bros took a few episodes to distinguish the subtle differences in timbre and tone between them. The same effect can be achieved with interview podcasts – Twang introduced me to the Briefing Room (thanks, @Twang!) and David Aaronovitch is a constant presence, though with guests in every episode.
Point 4 (liking the hosts as people) – interesting. It takes a lot for someone to be constantly likeable. I enjoy the TRIP and newsagent podcasts, but Campbell, Stewart, Maitlis, Goodall and (particularly) Sopel can be serious ego trippers at times. The one I had to stop listening to was Disorder – the topic of global politics is a no-brainer for me, but Jason Pack and Alex Hall Hall both have grating accents that scratch the blackboard of my eardrums.
Point 5 (smart, knowledgeable and funny) – valuable assets, but in addition to that, a certain humility of approach really makes a difference. There’s nothing worse than somebody crowing their wisdom and superiority without any sense of their own foolishness. A spirit of genuine inquiry and recognition that they don’t have all the answers is better than interrupting the interlocutor with a tired and well-worn anecdote or pearl of wisdom that diverts the conversation back onto a very familiar and comfortable pathway for the host (James O’Brien quite frequently)
If I were to add a point of my own, I think a clear narrative structure to the podcast helps create a sense of familiarity with what comes when in the episode – something Kermode and Mayo used to do quite well with features like DVD of the Week etc.
Apart from occasionally dipping into the Adam Buxton podcast, which for me has gone off the boil for the last couple of ‘seasons’, Chart Music became the only podcast I would listen to. At up to seven hours, a single episode could soundtrack an entire week of dog walks, and I found myself filling the increasing gaps between each release by revisiting old ones. The bonus Hit the Fucking Play Button episodes were a godsend. Like @Podicle, I was hit hard by Neil’s untimely death.
The reason I loved Chart Music so much – and I hope the past tense is redundant here – is because it had all those essential elements in spades: the hosts, the jokes, the insight. Plus, the podcast has developed its own lore: Treacherous Steph, the Birmingham Piss-Troll, the Pig Wanker General, Chicken Steven/Comrade Shakey. All these sound like in-jokes – they are, really – but it did feel like a group of mates putting an arm around me and welcoming me into their world.
I got in on Chart Music after the first handful of episodes – it was a post here that did it (thank you, whoever it was!) – and I think one reason for my reluctance to investigate any other podcast is the thought of getting my head around all those self-references. It might be why I was underwhelmed by Kermode/Mayo when I went to see what all the fuss was about.
But would love to find something new to supplement (and hopefully not need to replace) CM, so will be reading this thread with interest.
I think one of the major differences between the Mayo/Kermode and the Chart Music in-jokes are that the latter bring them up occasionally – Treacherous Steph only gets a mention when Simon Price is on – whereas Kermode and Mayo would bring up Treacherous Steph every week and the first half of the podcast would be listeners writing in to tell their own stories about a similarly treacherous person. Week after week. After week.
I’m surprised that the Mayo/Kermode podcast is still going. I haven’t listened to it in years but it sounded even then that Mayo had mentally checked out and was happy to host a show that was full of the same in-jokes as the week before, Kermode to rant at some point and was dominated by listener comments, particularly those on their code of conduct, which was not so much a set of rules as a means to look down on your fellow cinema-goer.
Both podcasts demonstrate the most important part of the success of any podcast – a good host. Al Needham is all that Simon Mayo isn’t – funny, informed and hosts with a clear schedule and set of notes in front of him. As mentioned above, it’s incredible how much of a deep dive they achieve into each episode. In one recent(ish) episode, there was an in-depth talk about their favourite audience members who were dancing to Slade.
Back in the early days of podcasting – when they were 90% tech and videogame related – Giant Bomb was one of the dominant podcasts but never recovered from the death of Ryan Davis in 2013. It’s been a slow decline since. Still Top 10 in the US (just) but tailing off elsewhere.
Andrew Hickey is an interesting exception to the normal rules of podcasting. I think why his podcast works so well is that he takes a song as the starting point but the episode in question is often about something unrelated. The episode on Love’s Alone Again Or is about a band being quickly overtaken by events around them, not least infighting in Love and the success of The Doors. Tim Harford also works well with the solo format. The key is that both can tell an interesting story without having to compete with anyone for space in the podcast.
I still listen to far too many podcasts but learned long ago that, in allowing a backlog to build up, it’s better to listen to those that are not dependent on listening to them the week they come up but, instead, are very retro-related. Saturday Night Freak Show, You Must Remember This, Secret History of Hollywood and The Evolution of Horror for movies. Retro-anything for games. Rock’s Backpages, Chart Music and Rockonteurs for music. None of these require any awareness of recent events (nor, at times, of events this century) so they’re safe to allow a to-listen-to pile to gather.
Top Tip on Rock’s Backpages. Some interesting ones there.
I had to bail on Rockonteurs after a year, it’s bad enough when one presenter interrupts the guest but when two of them are doing it (and to themselves too). Pity cos I like them and usually who they have on.
I still like Chart Music and listen to every episode. I think they may be overindulging a bit by going to 6, 7 or 8 hours. Personally I would prefer more frequent episodes with a 2 or 3 hr duration. Maybe 4 hrs tops.
I no longer listen to Kermode and Mayo every week, but I actually think the new version may be an improvement (commercials aside), shorter and less interminable emails from sycophantic fans.
I’ve listened to the Guardian Football Weekly for years…until recently. For an Oxbridge-educated fella, Max overuses the word ‘like’ in a way my 13-year-old niece would find embarrassing. The guests all clearly believe they’re far too clever and witty to lower themselves to Association Football (special mentions here to Jonathan ‘I invented football tactics’ Wilson, and Barney Ronay, a man literally paid to write about football, who sounds as enthusiastic as Alan Bennett at an orgy).
I listened to it for years with Jimbo, Barry etc but lost interest in weekly football around the time the team split and after that it wasn’t the same.
Jimbo fronts The Athletic Totally Football podcast which is a good listen. James Richardson is a key ingredient to a decent football podcast.
Thinking back to the podcasts I’ve enjoyed…
The West Wing Weekly is teh gold standard in the “podcasts that do a tv show by episode”. Informative, intelligent, developed its own inner language and was prepared to evolve.
One of the few ‘single voices’ is Caroline Crampton’s Shedunnit. I like the subject matter, they don’t run more than 30 minutes, and she has got a wonderful voice. And she is very obviously a fan of th esubject matter as well – Golden Age detectives.
There are three very good history ones, which vary from two handers – The Rest is…History – to single handers but with very very good guests – Not Just the Tudors with Susannah Lipscomb, and Gone Medieval, both from the Dan Snow. That stands in contrast to The Ancients – the guests are good, but the presenter…he went to my High School, and I know his type. I used to have fights with them.
All I want is someone who likes their subject, can transmit enthusiasm and knowledge, and with some humour.
I don’t want much, do I?
“Talking Sopranos” was a classic for lovers of the series – every episode dissected by Christopher and Bobbie plus other members/production people every time. Exemplary.
WWW was sheer class – and very funny. And always good when they interviewed an actor, writer or director.
I saw them do a live on, In Washington DC.
I thought I was fan. Some of the people there…
Well, quite…it’s a fine line between a hobby and a fetish, as Josh almost said.
My current podcast subscriptions:
David Bowie – Album To Album. Arsalan Mohammed and guests talk The Dame. Not sure why I’m still getting this as I’m not really that interested. It has moments when the guests are good.
Courtney Pine Global Jazz. Courtney is not a very good host IMO but some interesting new releases get flagged. Intermittent.
Matthew Bannister: Folk On Foot. Sometimes quite interesting. Often very dull. Official Folk Chart episodes are informative. Keeps my toe in the water.
Framework Radio. Found sounds and field recording and their use in composition. A great one to nod off to.
Afropop Worldwide. African and African Diaspora music. Enthusiastic and often fascinating. As suggested by the title, it’s position is firmly on the pop side of World music, completely free of any BBC-style worthiness. Informative.
Headphone Commute. More like a collection of mixtapes than a podcast. Usually an hour or more long with no talking at all, tending towards ambient soundscapes. When I used to commute into London by Tube it was just the thing in my earbuds on the Kings X escalators.
BBC In The Studio. Creative types in all disciplines talking amongst themselves about what they do. Mixed bag.
BBC Music Life. Musicians, mainly in the pop/r&b fields talking amongst themselves. Mixed bag.
Page 94: The Private Eye Podcast. A dip into the stuff The Eye is currently investigating/writing about.
The Afterword Podcast. Heppo and Ellen shooting the shit, often with guests who have a book to promote. Amusing how wrong Heppo’s past pontifications can sometimes be.
Watford Jazz Junction. Interviews with UK jazz musicians who have some sort of connection to the annual Watford Jazz Junction festival. Currently gone a bit quiet as they finalise this year’s one.
Welcome To Night Vale. Strange goings on in a fictional middle American town. Very strange goings on indeed. Surrealist dark comedy.
Word In Your Ear. One of the esteemed Twang’s occasional hobby projects. Blether. Intermittent.
World Service Music Documentaries. Various BBC World Service things recycled. Gone quiet.
I’m glad you’re still subscribed to albumtoalbum – I don’t put them out that often but when I do I try and get good guests to do the heavy lifting so its not me droning on about the bass in ‘Absolute Beginnners’ for hours on end
I’m not really a podcast guy. Generally podcasts seem to do what I get from my friends, but worse. Having said that, I’m a Rest Is History tragic – like most good things, it seems almost to have happened by accident, and Goalhanger’s appalling failures at repeating the formula (the point being there isn’t a formula) only seem to show how random and alchemical success is in this kind of thing. (I very much enjoy Dominic Sandbrook’s occasional wry snooks cocked at – lol – Alistair Campbell’s attempts to cast himself as the voice of the principled centre-left)
Anyway the reason I like it is because the hosts have millions of words of proven and slightly intimidating expertise behind each of them, and yet know what makes history compelling: storytelling. Plus they’re warm and affectionate with each other, and as I say, seem to have fallen into the game by mistake. Lovely.