Someone I know “liked” this on Facebook. Hmmmmmmm.
I’m kind of wary about posting it here, as gender arguments can be fractious. But… I don’t know, I just find it really patronising. For those who can’t be bothered reading it all, a feminist artist called Emma has written a comic strip about how men in general unfairly expect women to bear the brunt of household chores and organisation. Not only this, but men make it worse by taking the “well you should have asked me to do that if you wanted it done!” stance, because it forces women into bearing the “mental load” for either doing things themselves or telling their men to do them.
I kind of get what she is saying. Imbalance in hygiene/cleanliness/organisational standards in a relationship can be an issue, sure. But a concept like the “mental load” sounds to me like the worst kind of passive aggressive twaddle – at worst, an excuse for a control freak personality. And then to turn this into a gender issue??
The worst bit is near the end, when she pre-empts men (like me) who are reading the strip and thinking, “I’m not like these men she describes”… apparently, that’s not good enough. Because YOU might be okay, but it doesn’t change the problem of MEN in general.
What do you think? Is this the ugly, pedantic side of feminism? Or do you agree with her? Are you a male with a female partner and do you do your fair share of chores? Are you female with a male partner and think he should do more?
Discuss. Civilly.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic
Black Type says
I’ve been out of work for a while due to illness, and I’m basically a househusband whilst my wife is the breadwinner. Even when I was working I did at least an equal share of the domestics, and have always been much more tidiness-conscious, though not to the point of obsession. In our present situation, I do most of the housework, cleaning, laundry, cooking/meal planning ironing etc. I have no problem with this; it’s only fair as my wife works, and I have to say I’m pretty good at it (there can be pride in the smallest things!). Even if/when I get back into work I’m sure I’ll have the same mindset; I have no outmoded notion of traditional roles to go back to. I realise that this isn’t the common experience.
JustB says
Mm. I’m pretty much entirely in agreement with the cartoon, tbh. The idea of “mental load” is absolutely something that rings true with me and I say that as someone who very much used to let my ex bear more of that load than she should’ve, especially earlier in our relationship. I did try to be better and do things spontaneously, but it wasn’t always easy to remember, and it’s hard to deny that my laziness around that “mental load” was because I wasn’t raised to think about bearing it. I’m not making an excuse: it’s pathetic that I found it hard to remember. And the kicker is that I’m sure I did/do more around the house and with childcare than a lot of blokes do.
The fact is that in heterosexual partnerships, even in households where both partners work, women still bear more than their share of household chores and management. IMO it’s far too easy for men to say that concepts like “mental load” are passive aggressive twaddle. We would say that. We don’t know what we’re talking about. (A bit like when white people in America claim angrily that structural privilege doesn’t exist for them.)
When it comes to questions of privilege, the privileged are probably the least informed or informative people to listen to. I can’t remember who said this, but it’s true: for people who are used to privilege, talk of equality seems like oppression.
OOAA.
RubyBlue says
I went on a ranty post about my own situation but instead of boring you with the tedium of my ‘mental load’ I will just say that the non-ranty bits of the post were agreeing with Bob.
I think this is one of the major reasons for relationship breakdown initiated by women, especially when children come along. That and sex (which it’s probably connected to. Resentment – not sexy.)
JustB says
I was talking to a good friend about sex within relationships recently and she pointed me at quite a decent and large study suggesting that women are far more likely to become bored with their partners’ shit moves than vice versa. In a way this surprised me, since the idea of sexual “boredom” and a need for variety has stereotypically been seen as quite male. Interesting, though, and a salutary lesson for lazy lovers.
Aaanyway, back to the mental load thing, I can entirely see how being treated as a servant (even by a man who thinks he’s “doing his share”) wouldn’t exactly be fucknip* for anyone.
*I just invented this word. I’m very pleased about it.
RubyBlue says
Heh heh, ‘fucknip’.
davebigpicture says
That’s a great word.
minibreakfast says
Inspired, I just invented “twatnip”. Can’t wait to use it, sure it won’t be long.
Moose the Mooche says
“Shit moves” – oh dear. I feel very vanilla all of a sudden.
Arthur Cowslip says
Ok, I retract the phrase ‘passive aggressive twaddle’. That was a bit harsh…
JustB says
Well, yeah, but I wasn’t having a go or anything. I do think it’s important to recognise that our natural defensiveness – and I feel it too – around being called out as a sex about this stuff is probably because we suspect there’s more than a hint of truth in it. Otherwise, why would we get our backs up?
Arthur Cowslip says
No probs, I was just worried about coming across as a troll.
Well, the thing is, I do agree with the basic fact. I think on average men are slobbier than women. But I just hate this approach to dealing with it – making it into a victim issue where the person in the relationship who is the organised, proactive one is the one who is suffering. In every relationship you’re going to have differing personalities, and both sides have to compromise.
When push comes to shove, there’s nothing more humiliating and soul destroying than arguing about housework, is there?
Vincent says
Living with other people inevitably leads to differences in the criterion for “sufficient”, as the rules are not generally specified. I am a strong believer in same but different, reciprocal responsibilities, and “is this task necessary, or a tyranny of the should/ ought”? (Why was the woman in the cartoon ironing? life is too short, and you can take “the personal is political” too far. Wear silk shirts and hang up your clothes if you don’t want to look fashionably rumpled). Do what you think needs to be done, and intervene before things get worse. It gets more complex with children, but stuff has to be done, so whoever is better at a specific task does it, or it’s done “good enough” (there is not enough discussion of “good enough”). I am not a fan of dictatorship, howsoever it is spun; matriarchy can be as oppressive as patriarchy. [Retreats to bunker and waits for this to die down.]
Arthur Cowslip says
Based on the initial comments I am starting to wish I hadn’t posted this. Might be too divisive.
Still, maybe I should explain a bit more. I think the cartoon is too one-sided – it presents a situation as self-evident when it begs too many facts. Had the husband offered to help the wife before the visitor turned up? Has he tried cooking and feeding the kids before but was hopeless at it, so the wife told him to stick to the gardening instead? Was he trying to be polite to the guest by not leaving her sitting on her own, like his wife seemed prepared to do? Did he previously offer to cook the meal but his wife assured him ‘no, no, you entertain Emma when she turns up, i know what I’m doing’? Does his wife have standards that are too high, so she struggles to maintain them?
It just seems too much like the cartoonist has walked into the middle of a brewing domestic argument and has just made a load of assumptions about what actually happened.
Yes, gender imbalance is a real thing, forged by years of social conditioning. But try analysing the situation properly and suggesting real solutions, instead of alienating men who do contribute fairly to their household.
JustB says
Why sorry you posted? No cross words as far as I can see. 🙂
Rigid Digit says
I like to believe I “do my share”, although Mrs D would certainly refute that.
For me, it seems to be a case of different expectations/needs – what I think is good enough and done is often some way short of my wifes.
But … it’s a learning experience. Next time (daft example follows) I will have learnt that when unpacking the shopping to put it away as soon as it’s removed from the bag (it’s only taken 15 years to arrive at that conclusion).
By the same token, Mrs D will one day learn that teaspoons go in the far right section of the cutlery tray.
Little things, but it’s all about tolerance of each others expectations. And therefore a bit of compromise along the way.
I’m not saying it’s all sweetness and light, and there is a definite 50/50 split, but we’re rubbing along quite nicely doing stuff to help each other, and then splitting the rest of the stuff into “what do you want to do?”, “who’s best suited to that task?” type thing.
The cartoon is, I think, suggesting this and then saying “why can’t everybody’s expectations be the same”.
Because they’re not.
(Unless I’ve completely read it wrong)
minibreakfast says
Far right? Teaspoon Nazi!
davebigpicture says
TMFTL
Uncle Wheaty says
Opening track…do you look like Hitler or Pete Townsend on the back of a spoon?
Gatz says
I’ve seen disagreement about the arrangement of cutlery and flatware somewhere else this week. It might have been in Cold Feet …. Anyway, yes exactly the sort of thing that would make me suck my teeth a mutter to myself as I put the spoons back in the correct place again. Probably best all round that even in my longest relationship, the current one, several years now, I have never been tempted to try to live with anyone. Not practical, or desirable, for everyone of course, but my tip for a happy match of home and love life.
RubyBlue says
Yes, I think you are right. Living with someone is very hard. And I would accept that I have my own , uhm, ‘quirks’ that make me a pain in the arse to live with.
This nuclear family stuff is all weird and relatively new; I think the intense pressure to be a ‘family’ doesn’t help, given all the baggage that brings these days.
RubyBlue says
I think it’s (obviously) more than a split in terms of who-does-what, which can relatively easily be arranged (although often isn’t).
It’s more about the remembering. Lunches, parent’s evenings, permission slips, after school clubs, clean clothes, clean clothes that fit, shoes, appointments of all kinds, health check-ups, birthdays, kid’s parties, school liaison, school trips, childcare, social events…
It’s not just the DOING. It’s the REMEMBERING and more than that, being proactive about this stuff. because it matters. It matters, because it just does; and it matters because men who don’t do this stuff are sending a very clear message.
This is a very hot-button topic for me so I will bow out but I think the point is being missed a bit here. I think these issues emerge particualrly when you have children, so if you don’t some of it may well not apply to you.
Children- like throwing a grenade into a marriage. Which then has to be cleaned up. By someone.
JustB says
Yeah. I see my fault massively in terms of the remembering. The not remembering, rather.
I think a huge red flag for anyone should be a) their tendency to look for a parent in a partner or b) their tendency to tolerate being placed in a parental position by the careless incompetence of their partner.
I was very young when I met my ex, and not much older when we married. That parent/child dynamic set a bit of a tone, which I did rectify in large part, but it was still the mood music for the marriage. I won’t let that happen again.
RubyBlue says
YES. The parent thing.
Remarkable also how often people repeat the patterns of their own parents’ relationship.
Sigh.
davebigpicture says
Having done counselling, I was horrified by the realisation that we were repeating our parents mistakes. Counselling was a good thing and life is a lot better now.
davebigpicture says
I get the not remembering thing but it goes both ways. I kid you not, I’ve had texts from my wife asking what time I’ll be home when I’m going to be away for two or three days, sometimes in another country. These days, we’ve learnt that we have different priorities and awareness of what’s going on in the family.
Tahir W says
I understand this very well.
I am, to be honest, one of those guys who actually like forgetting about my surroundings, even to the point of letting them get a bit, dare I say, dirty. When they get too bad I’ll suddenly notice and make an effort.
Someone like me should not have kids and I don’t. Someone like me should be wary of living with a partner and currently I don’t.
I think there are many types of social and familial relationships that can work, including partners that live in separate pads. The nuclear family is only one option among many potential others.
A guy like me should not live with a woman who has high standards of housework, to the extent even of ironing curtains and sheets, AND who has ideals of equality in housework. Cannot possibly work.
Feminism has been essential in highlighting these problems. The answer might not lie in continuing gender wars, but maybe in some more radical alternative thinking?
RubyBlue says
Can I please say, again- it’s not just about housework per se.
Right.
*deep breath*
Rigid Digit says
My professional background is Planning and Project Management (like the author). Couple that with a mild dose of OCD and I like to believe we’ve got the Household Management (“What’s happening when”, who’s doing what”) thing covered, thanks to my constant writing of lists and plans.
(I still have the Gantt Chart I did for cooking Christmas Dinner – yup, it’s a laugh a minute with me).
Yes, stuff might get forgotten, but that’s why we have a 4ft X 2ft chalkboard and a calendar next to it.
Works for us, but I fully appreciate and have seen the one-sided need in other relationships
RubyBlue says
You are fucknip.
SteveT says
I think views on this can be skewed depending on whether the man in question is a DIY genius. We had a dinner party for 6 people last week – I cooked all of the courses and the ladies were impressed saying that neither of their husbands would have been able to do it. However both said husbands are handyman- I am most certainly not. So if you asked my wife she may swap my cooking abilities for their aptitude at decorating, erecting shelves etc.
There is a quite obvious thing going on here – our partners are never happy and we are never good enough.
Should never have allowed this equal rights nonsense!!
JustB says
Interestingly I’m both a cook and a handyman: I can more or less make anything, within reason. But tbh the handyman thing is only ever going to be occasional. There’s far less of the daily grind about that stuff.
Laundry, now. I suck at laundry. I’m much tidier now but I do also recognise that my shitness at tidiness is fundamentally rooted in my unconscious expectation that someone else is going to do it.
Sitheref2409 says
Generally, this.
I cook. Not great, but with the right recipe, I can do a nice meal. Sharon doesn’t enjoy it as much as I do, so she cleans.
She’s the practical one. Not through lack of trying but because her background is aerospace engineering and she understands, at a native level, how things work.
This will – in April – be my second marriage. The one thing we agreed to very early on was the importance of communication. We don’t make a lot of assumptions, and I like to think we’re each very solicitous of each other’s happiness and contentment. It helps a lot.
Douglas says
I think there’s an angle along the lines that equality in a relationship doesn’t have to mean that each partner does 50% of everything, but more realistically that each person is “in charge of” 50% of the things that need done.
Traditionally and stereotypically The Man would do work, the car, DIY etc, and The Woman would do the children and household tasks. It would no more occur to The Man that he should “interfere” in cooking than it would The Woman to suggest she runs her own checks on the car.
(I’m not saying this is necessarily a good way of doing things, just one way that many marriages traditionally worked in practice, whether you agree it’s a good approach or not).
It’s been well recognised among psychologists that in a long term co-habited relationship the two people will, consciously or subconsciously, split the tasks between them. This can be seen if one of them leaves or dies, where the remaining partner is a bit hopeless at some things because “my spouse/partner dealt with all that stuff”. This is the way things happen in real life, because it’s easier to take control of one thing than to take half control of two things. On paper the management consultant would say they’re the same, but reality tells us otherwise.
None of this is any excuse for laziness, inconsideration etc, but I do think the article takes a slightly simplified view, although there are good points made along the way.
Gary says
I watched The Red Pill recently. Cassie Jaye’s documentary about the Men’s Rights Movement in America and how it convinced her to stop being a feminist. It’s a very interesting documentary. What I took from it most, however, is a realisation that the concept of “women and children first” when the ship starts sinking and the lifeboats are being launched is right unfair and I no longer adhere to it.
JustB says
Deleting my specific answer and replacing it with: “men’s rights”. 🙄
Gary says
Actually the documentary answers that question. A lot. I can’t remember everything that it was blathering on about (or, indeed, any of it really) beyond my above mentioned, and highly pertinent, example. I recommend you watch it, post haste and tout suit, before you have any more silly ideas.
JustB says
I just read the reviews. I’m not tempted, I’ll be honest.
Gary says
Now your cunning use of the edit feature has rendered my nonsensical ramblings even more abstract. Curses!
Sniffity says
Heard a rather good radio interview which revealed that historically, “Women and children first” has meant “Women and children first to die” (er, that wasn’t why it was good).
Have a listen for yourself to find out how humans act in the face of disaster…
http://www.abc.net.au/radio/adelaide/programs/conversations/eleanor-learmonth-how-groups-survive-or-perish-in-disasters/7755312
Gary says
Hold on a cotton-picking minute there Sniffles – what she actually says is “we decided that ‘women and children first’ is an unfinished, incomplete sentence which should actually read ‘women and children first to die’ because that seems to be the general rule”. She’s not talking historical etymology, just her personal, and rather glib, observation based opinion. (An observation she then immediately contradicts with an anecdote.)
Sniffity says
Um…OK, I could have put it better.
Uncle Wheaty says
I empty the bins and put them out for collection on the right day.
I mow the lawn.
I cook every Sunday. And on many other days job routine allowing.
I empty the bath after she or the kids have left it (she might do it 24 hours later).
I clean the toilet and unblock sinks as needed.
I spoil the kids more than she does.
I do a lot of ironing, but not hers as her clothes are “special”.
I am, i’M ME!
Bingo Little says
I remember seeing this comic a few months ago and rolling my eyes, partly because of the patronising tone, but mainly because of the generalisations it makes.
My wife and I are both lawyers. We do similar jobs, for similar(ish) employers. Our careers have largely run in parallel. Our lives are organised to help facilitate those careers, while also striking some sort of balance in domestic terms. As a consequence, we share equally both domestic chores and the associated headspace.
When my eldest was born I immediately left my job, and found one that would enable me to be at home more and (critically) arrive at work later. As a consequence, I take both my kids to school in the morning, and have always done similar from nursery onwards. I liaise with their teachers, remember their gym kits, check their moods to ensure they’re happy and all that other good stuff. I’ve turned down numerous other jobs simply so that this arrangment could be maintained – my wife starts and finishes work early, I start and finish work late. That’s the deal.
Beyond the above, I also do my share at home. Partly because I love my wife, and I know she’s subject to exactly the same pressures I am, partly because a marriage is about mutual support and respect – if you let the other person do more (and lord knows there are opportunities to go down that road), you are undermining the relationship to some extent. Partly because I have a daughter, and I don’t want her to grow up thinking it’s normal for women to have to do more than their far share, and that it’s something she has to accept. But also partly because my mother was/is a raging feminist and I grew up with quotations from Ann Oakley ringing in my ears, and partly because (at the risk of sounding an even bigger cock than usual), I’ve always held that it you’re going to do something, and particularly something as important as marriage, you do it as well as you possibly can. And that means equal share.
So, I drop the kids off at school in the morning, get patronised by some of the Mums because I’m often the only father in the class who comes to drop off, and then head to work to compete with colleagues, some of whom are childless women who get 9 hours a night kip.
All of which is a long way of saying; generalisations based on gender are a massive snooze, and that cartoon can bite me. I know it may be the case for some other men, but it ain’t for me (and, I’m sure, others). If you don’t do your share you should fix up, regardless what shape genitals you might have.
OOAA
JustB says
You’re bigger than 10 men, dude. 😉 It’s great that you find it patronising – that probably means you don’t need to see it. But you’re also super atypical. Maybe not in our generation and social class but more widely? You’re the outlier of outliers. I understand why when you yourself are blameless, these things are a snooze, but doesn’t it slightly behove us to realise that gender inequality and shit like this isn’t just an unhelpful set of labels and stereotypes but an oppressive reality for many, if not most?
I’m generally suspicious of identity politics, but for me feminism and gender equality isn’t another choose-your-own-adventure rabbit hole like the – to my eyes – batshit trans cult currently raging. It’s half the population, a decent chunk of whom are still kept in an unexamined and apparently inevitable semi-servitude. Can’t let that one go by with just an “everyone be nice”.
Bingo Little says
Heh!
I just question whether it’s helpful to make these things gender issues.
Men might be lazier than women in general, but there will almost certainly be relationships out there where a man does more than a woman. To give but one example, my current boss has a husband who stays home and does virtually all the domestic stuff, so that she can have a super high flying career. And why not? It works for them.
I also wonder if the cartoon doesn’t help sort of weirdly legitimise men’s laziness by crowning it as the status quo (albeit a status quo that needs to change).
Uncle Wheaty says
Up arrow!
salwarpe says
Is this the ugly, pedantic side of feminism? No, I’d tend to agree with her. The mental load is something my wife talks about quite a lot.
I try to do my share of the chores associated with house and family. I do one of the two weekly food shops, share the cooking at the weekends, clear up after meals, pick up stuff around the house and run the hoover round when the dust starts getting a bit thick. I take one child to kindergarten each morning, share in the bedtime routine for both, and am sole carer Friday evenings and Saturday mornings (and early afternoons).
However, there’s no denying she takes care of the house-related paperwork, and (as I have a 40 hr pw job paying substantially more than her 10hr pw job) she takes on most of the childcare. If my wife was paid for her highly-qualified work in a ‘caring profession’ at anywhere near the rate that I receive for my office admin work, then we could either afford more childcare, or I could consider (and I wouldn’t mind this), going from full time to part time. But the economics, in part, puts us in the position where she runs the home.
This time factor (spending cumulatively far more time with them than me) and that as a trained OT she is also more skilled at child development than I am, mean that she makes key decisions about our children’s food, clothing, activities. There’s a certain unfortunate concommitant that I follow her lead in relation to the children.
There’s also the energy factor. We have no family near at hand, so when one of us needs a rest, the other has to step in. Nights and weekends are when everything that doesn’t directly involve childcare has to compete for attention, and being lazy (resting) is one of those needs, competing strongly with household cleaning, etc.
It is inevitable that we take our parents as role models, and I remember my dad almost never being there as an active father, He is a good man, but his area was his job, the garden, DIY, and Round Table and other voluntary activities. My mother ran the household. I’d always wanted to be a more active dad, but it’s not always an easy role to activate. The kids often prefer to go to Mum, even when she’s cross with them and I’m not.
I could, as is probably apparent, do better, which is why I’d agree with the cartoonist. However, the lack of time, energy and money and therefore the need to conserve all three mean that it doesn’t feel like the resources are there to put that into effect.
H.P. Saucecraft says
I’m extremely grateful to Emma for femsplaining this issue to me in such a charming (and diverse!) way, and look forward to her next comic where she femsplains emotional work. I do apologise for not quite reading all of it, though – making my breakfast and doing my laundry took priority I’m afraid!
Hannah says
I was originally sent this comic by my best mate and it actually sums up very nicely a lot of the imbalances in our domestic situations (to be fair, it portrays my marriage rather than my current relationship). And similarly with the friends I’ve shared it with.
I basically echo Ruby’s sentiments word for word. It’s not the doing, it’s the remembering. It’s also not just about housework.
I hope my experience of marriage was unusual. My husband and I shared most domestic tasks until our daughter was born. Then, suddenly everything connected with the house or the children was my responsibility.
I remember when our daughter was three months old, my ex suddenly announcing on a Saturday morning that he was about to go out for four hours (without me or daughter). We hadn’t discussed it, and I was a bit miffed.
“I don’t need your permission to go out”, he replied. “And it’s your job to look after the baby.”
When our second child was six months old, I was in hospital for a week. My ex was actually angry at me for daring to be ill. I came home to find that no laundry had been done, there was no food in the house, no cleaning had been done. He even greeted me with the words, “thank God you’re home, we’ve run out of clean clothes. I’ve left it all for you to sort”. I cried and wished I was back in hospital.
When I went back to work, my ex refused to ever take a day off work if the children are sick, or even to take them to the childminder: “I earn a lot more than you do, so my job always takes priority.”
Despite the fact we were both working, he now refused to do any housework: “It’s not something that interests me. I’ll pay for a cleaner but don’t ask me to do any jobs.”
I would shop and make supper. He would eat it and then walk his plate into the kitchen and leave it on top of the dishwasher. When I repeatedly asked him if he could at least help clear away or at least put his crockery inside the dishwasher, he’d refuse and remind me it was my job.
All the other jobs: looking after the kids health, their daily needs, arranging repairs around the house, paying bills, all mine. The mental load, all mine.
Reader, I left him.
I’m heartened to read so many in this thread claiming that this situation doesn’t apply to them. But please don’t assume that means it doesn’t apply to anyone. My situation was extreme, I grant you. But, as I say, all the female friends I’ve shared it with have nodded in recognition.
mikethep says
Ouf…what a nightmare. Forgive me, but I’m curious – did he have any idea why you were leaving him? Strikes me that someone with so little talent for empathy might have been a bit surprised.
Hannah says
Who knows what he thought? I had said on a number of occasions over the years that I wasn’t happy. We went to counselling for a few weeks, where he would patiently explain to the therapist that all our marital problems were caused by the fact that I was a lazy, slovenly housekeeper.
Over the years, I tried a couple of times to make him realise it was over, but he refused to take me seriously (and I didn’t have the money or resources to force the issue by physically leaving).
So, I guess, in the end, I didn’t leave him. He eventually allowed me to go.
It’s rather mortifying to look back and see the nonsense I put up with, for so long.
bricameron says
Hannah says
Have realised that my earlier comment wasn’t necessarily the most helpful, as it didn’t address the issues raised by the original comic.
My old situation involved one party refusing to do anything, rather than one party not realising things need to be done.
My boyfriend and I have a much better split of household jobs. We clean together, and dance around the kitchen while we empty the dishwasher. My elderly relatives are always bewildered that he would be clearing up after the meal, (“my husband wouldn’t have dreamed of that!”) and he is equally bewildered to be regarded as some sort of freak of nature by them because he clears up.
The mental load–the kids need new school uniforms, the dog needs to go to the vet, we’re out of dishwasher salt, we need a new energy tarrif, the tumble dryer still isn’t working–is still mostly mine. It doesn’t mean my partner doesn’t care or doesn’t want to do the work, but I’m certainly the one who usually realises that the things need doing in the first place.
mikethep says
I think you’ve put your finger on it there. If Mrs thep is any guide, once she’s had the thought – need to put a wash on, say – it has to be acted upon, and probably by her because she doesn’t want to nag. Whereas I might have the thought, and then file it away for some time in the future, maybe this afternoon, once I’ve done other stuff like important research on the internet or giving the new Randy Newman a good listen. But it’s very rarely as urgent as she thinks it is. Unless she’s run out of knickers or I’ve run out of undercrackers, of course.
I’m not entirely useless – I do all the cooking, most of the food shopping, nearly all the washing up (no dishwasher) and plenty of random acts of DIY. I’m responsible for administering the flow of tradies in and out of the house to install and fix stuff. I’m responsible for getting rid of stuff we really shouldn’t have bought in the first place. And of course I do paid work, though nowhere near as much as she does.
But I’m pretty sure stuff gets done much quicker on Venus than Mars.
Hannah says
Yes, similarly with us: I generally do things as I notice them, and my partner tends to do them when he’s ready to do them!
Thanks for mentioning trades, BTW, the tumble dryer’s broken and it’s not going to fix himself. Going to phone the handyman before I forget…
Dave Ross says
This over simplification of life applied to all men and all women is not helpful. It applies to some relationships, not all and therefore not all men. My observation is that it probably applies to many first relationships less so to second ones. We’re all still learning how this shit works. My parents had clearly defined roles, neither less important than the other but very few grey areas. Dad worked bloody hard to provide, mum worked bloody hard to bring up 4 kids. The shame for me is that parenting has become something that you “fit in”. There are many reasons why, the cost of living, equal rights etc but if we think things will be better for future generations we’re mistaken. It’s another genie that’s never going back in the bottle but it doesn’t feel right. Wouldn’t it be great if we could afford to live on one salary for the time our kids were growing up and allow one of the parents, Mum or Dad, to be at home guiding and nurturing. Sorry drifted back to the fifties there for a minute.
Douglas says
The more I think about this, the more I think the original cartoon has got it very wrong. If it’s Mental Load you’re concerned about – and that’s an interesting and valid perspective – then surely requiring both partners to be “on duty” 24/7 about everything is just going to multiply their own Mental Load? You’re making the problem worse?
It sounds to me like over-analysing and over-intellectualising* the situation, when it’s a simple case of “agree who does what so it’s roughly 50:50, and don’t be a dick”. I appreciate that’s a non-trivial discussion to have in some relationships (eg if you’re married to a selfish shit, as @Hannah decscribed in her first post), but again, I’d say this is less a gender issue and more of a selfishness/shitiness issue.
*The original article was in The Grauniad, eh? If you’re with a selfish shit who won’t listen to any discussion about division of labour, then I’m guessing that pointing them to The Guardian is unlikely to be much more successful.
Martin S says
What’s good about the article is that it raises the debate (especially the internal debate in my head). I’ve been fortunate in life to have been married to a domestic goddess. She’s one of those people who is just really good at almost everything. From her mum she learned to be great at household chores such as cooking, washing, ironing, mending and making clothes, cleaning etc, but did it end there? Oh no. From her Dad she also learned the dark arts of DIY, decorating, gardening, building sheds, laying concrete etc. From my parents, I picked up the skills of hoovering the stairs and strumming a guitar.
38 years later, kids have come, gone, come back, stayed etc. Her skills have grown enormously and mine not so much. To say that the domesticity is imbalanced would be an understatement. True, I’m the only one who can work the SONOS and I do all of the IT support. She would love to go back to those days where she could put a CD or a record on and the sound would just come out of the place it is supposed to emit from. When she does get the hang of one of the new devices, I (Apple, Spotify, Sonos) go and change the bloody thing!
True too that I am quite good at remembering stuff that needs to happen but I expect that is more to do with the headspace that my additional leisure time might afford. True too, that I’ve always have a massive role to play with bringing up the kids (after all they can all strum things too) but in that, I learned much from her.
I keep the grass down, unblock drains, hoover the house, wash up after meals, clear up the cat shit and give the kitchen a good old scrub on a Saturday morning with the help of Danny Baker. None of that comes near to what she is able to achieve.
The sad thing is, that I suspect I would quite enjoy cooking if I had the freedom of the kitchen without the prying eyes, sharp tongue and knowing looks of someone much better equipped to carry out the tasks. I am all fingers and thumbs, especially when under scrutiny! We’re nearing retirement years now and are planning for a future away from London. Learning to cook is absolutely on my bucket list. This article and the associated thread is a wakeup call for me.
Bingo Little says
Having a little more time now to think/write, here’s what I don’t like about the cartoon:
(i) The tone. If you’re trying to convince people of something and seek their buy in, you don’t address them as if they were a bunch of morons.
(ii) The inference that if, as a man (sorry, “heterosexual man” – let’s be super clear on that), you disagree with some or all of the cartoon it’s actually prima facie evidence of your ignorance/complicity/inability to see what’s really going on.
(iii) The way it bypasses the fact that relationship roles are entirely negotiated. It’s undeniable that we’re socialized (to some extent) to believe that women should take on more of the domestic work/”mental load”, but the perpetuation of that notion requires the assent of both parties. So why not address both men and women, and speak to them as adults, rather than presenting this as some sort of secret wisdom that all women will understand, but no man can ever truly grasp?
(iv) The bit about how women are portrayed as wives. I think there’s a genuinely interesting debate to be had here. A large part of our social circle is comprised of couples where both parties have/had fairly high flying professional careers. Lots of lawyers, bankers and accountants. The picture changed a few years ago as our friends began having kids and, slowly but surely, the women began to either quit work entirely or downgrade their jobs, while the men pushed on ahead. I didn’t get the sense that any of them were being bullied into this, and it only stands to reason that once one of you is out working 100 hour weeks and the other is at home all day, the division of household labour will become radically skewed (I also know a handful of couples where the man stayed home while the woman has the big career). Are these women being co-opted by the patriarchy? Are they letting down the sisterhood? I don’t think so. They’ve simply negotiated their own relationships in a direction that suits them. I accept that this is entirely anecdotal, and that it’s still easier for a woman to stay home than a man, but I do think it complicates the debate – a fair few women, given the choice, simply prefer the “mental load” of domestic work to their previous careers, as do some men. I don’t know what you do about this.
(v) “11 days after we go through the ordeal of giving birth, our partner (way to mix the singular and plural) goes back to work – and it seems normal to him”.
No it fucking doesn’t, and furthermore do fuck off.
(vi) The notion that if I’m under the impression I do half the chores, I should “confirm it with my partner”, so she can set me straight. Sorry, but she’s not my mother, nor is she the ultimate arbiter of domestic life – that’s sort of the point here.
(vii) The notion that if the domestic chore gap is narrowing, it’s “not because men are doing more”. Au contraire, it’s because the tasks are being outsourced, “often to poor immigrant women”. Because even when the statistics suggest that the situation is improving, it can only be further evidence of patriarchal oppression.
(viii) The way it ends. “Alright, I could say more, but I’ll stop for today. In a future comic, I’ll talk about the emotional work that also gets heaped onto women”. Ugh.
(ix) The fact that the cartoon patronises men who actually do their fair share. What it’s really looking for, the correct male response, is “yes, I recognise this, aren’t we all bastards”. The ones who do their bit are simply airbrushed out of the story (just ask their partners!). Reading it, my chief sensation was to wonder why I bother doing all the hard stuff, when I could just loaf around and then nod sagely on Twitter about how awful I and the others are, thereby conforming to the role the author has assigned me.
There’s an entirely valid debate to be had about men, women, gender roles, the division of domestic chores and how we’re forced by society into narrow behavioural tramlines. But it would need to be a million times more nuanced than this cartoon, and would reflect the fact that both women and men are complicit in perpetuating (and equally, both suffer as a result of) a lot of these stereotypes.
I was at a drinks event for the parents from my daughter’s class a couple of months ago. There was one other man there, and he imparted to me a cheery anecdote about the last time he’d attended, when three women had come over to him and the only other bloke in the room, and asked “are you the men without penises then?”. Men who engage and help are too often treated as novelties, or outright peculiarities, and it comes from both women and men, in equal measure. And that’s bullshit.
Equality should be portrayed as a net win for both sexes, because it absolutely is. It’s not a tragic little gender war where one side are saints and the other are perpetually immature, and 50% of the population aren’t (whether by genetics or socialization) stupid, or callous, or congenitally untidy.
I could say more, but I think that’s enough for your tiny little brains. Next time I’ll talk about how a lot of fathers actually quite like being around their kids.
Peace out.
JustB says
Some valid points there, but the trouble with (ii) is that it generally is. If there’s one word that winds up people who enjoy a lot of privilege, it’s the word “privilege”, because almost nobody thinks they enjoy any such thing and get their backs right up when they’re called on it.
I realise that this is the Afterword, and so any sample size of women is going to be tiny, but isn’t it just a TINY bit suggestive that the two women who’ve posted an answer here both recognise the truth of the cartoon? I’m not saying it gets everything right, and I agree with (v) and (vi) in your post above, but in a cartoon about the female experience, if the women are saying “yep, that sounds about right” and the dudes are saying “HANG ON A SEC!”, maybe there’s something valid going on here?
Bingo Little says
I think this is the bit where I ask if you’re trying to “deny my lived experience”, Bob!
As I say, I think if you want allies, and want to convince people of something, then telling them that anything they may think to the contrary is simply a function of their inability to truly comprehend the phenomena is pretty counter-intuitive.
I’m not, by any means, saying there are no relationships like this. I know tons of couples exactly like this – my best mate is bloody dreadful for it. I’m not at all surprised to hear that Ruby and Hannah have had some bad experiences (although jesus, but Hannah’s ex sounds like a real douchebag).
But two thoughts:
(i) the cartoon isn’t just about “female experience”. It’s about couples, so that’s male experience too, which means that what men have to say on the topic is also of some pertinence; and
(ii) I’m not asserting that NO couples are like this. I’m rejecting the way the cartoon insinuates that ALL men are like this (even the ones who think they aren’t).
Ultimately, I’m a bit sick of people trying to draw bloody great lines down the population, whether based in gender, race or whatever. “Privilege” strikes me as a buzzword to do just that. I don’t deny structural racism, or structural patriarchy. I do deny that it’s utterly all pervasive, or that one side is entirely guilty of perpetuating it, and therefore don’t deserve to have a view. It’s exactly these sorts of shitty generalisations that created the problems we’re trying to deal with.
Also, the following chain of arguments literally does not compute:
(i) all men are socialized to be feckless slobs;
(ii) if women stopped doing the chores, men still wouldn’t do them, and vegetables would simply rot on the counter; and
(iii) except homosexual men. They don’t have this problem.
JustB says
Mmm. Well, here’s a thing about #NotAllMen.
“[Saying Not All Men] is not an unexpected response. However, it’s also not a helpful one. Why is it not helpful to say “not all men are like that”? For lots of reasons. For one, women know this. They already know not every man is a rapist, or a murderer, or violent [or a lazy entitled boor, for that matter]. They don’t need you to tell them. Second, it’s defensive. When people are defensive, they aren’t listening to the other person; they’re busy thinking of ways to defend themselves. I watched this happen on Twitter, over and again. Third, the people saying it aren’t furthering the conversation, they’re sidetracking it. The discussion isn’t about the men who aren’t a problem. (Though, I’ll note, it can be. I’ll get back to that.) Instead of being defensive and distracting from the topic at hand, try staying quiet for a while and actually listening to what the thousands upon thousands of women discussing this are saying.” (Got this from a Slate article which I quite liked.)
(I’ve been called out for pulling the Not All Men defence myself, and it hurt when it happened because I genuinely didn’t see why I was being lumped in with the bad guys. But what I realised when it did is that it’s *not about me*. When domestic work falls disproportionately on women, it’s a women’s civil rights issue, and it’s not about men. It’s not about you. My hackles being raised because I’m not part of the huge structural problem does precisely nothing to address the problem and everything to derail the convo into an irrelevance.)
Bingo Little says
I think that argument is utter bollocks, to be completely honest.
The cartoon is saying “#Allmen”. So, I’m saying “#NotAllMen”.
That’s called a dialogue. It’s not derailing the conversation, it IS the conversation. If points being made are strong enough, they should be able to survive legitimate challenge.
Is there ever a situation where women need to be quite for a while and listen to what thousands and thousands of men are saying? God, I hope not.
If you’re the subject of discussion and part of the audience, you’re fully entitled to express a view, whether you’re male or female.
JustB says
OK, for a start I don’t think it IS saying “all men”. It’s saying “in general, men” or “many men”. That’s not the same thing, and so “not all men” isn’t only unhelpful, it’s also answering a charge that hasn’t been laid in the first place. It’s an interesting answer, just to a totally different question. It’s irrelevant.
If you start reading that cartoon from the premise that it’s saying “every individual man”, well, yeah – you’re going to get to a “not all men” place pretty fast. But that’s not a fair or correct reading of it, in my view.
Bingo Little says
It’s saying “in general, men – but if you think you’re not like this, just go ask your wife”.
JustB says
Look, you’re not going to find me defending every particular of the cartoon, but what’s now happened is that a debate about something which IS a generalised issue is now a (very interesting) discussion about something else.
In its essentials, the cartoon describes a reality which many men don’t understand and which many women identify with pretty hard. And we’re here talking about Not All Men. Which is why Not All Men is an unhelpful distraction, IMO.
Anyway, I’m gonna bow out at this point because I’ve said my bit, and sooner or later someone’s going to think I’m even more of a PC SJW snowflake White Knight twat than they already do, and say so, and it’ll get unpleasant, and I’d rather that didn’t happen!
(Not you, obviously. If you did that, I’d just kick you in the nuts the next time I see you.)
Bingo Little says
But if we’re going to have a debate about the division of household chores, in which the topic of men who do their share is an unhelpful distraction that shouldn’t be raised, then I think that pretty much guarantees the outcome of the debate, doesn’t it?
That’s sort of what I’m complaining about above – that refusal to acknowledge complexity in what is actually a pretty complex issue.
Dave Ross says
Don’t you two have a dishwasher to empty or something?
minibreakfast says
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m finding this most invigorating.
Bingo Little says
Strap yourself in, mini – we’re wrestling in jello next.
H.P. Saucecraft says
But seriously though but. I love the childish Playschool style of the comic, the sweetie pastel palette, the way adults (they are adults, right?) are portrayed as happy, cute little dolls of diversity. I love the way everything she says could be got across in one cartoon, but she goes on and on and on and on to make her point as clear as ever it could be, even to the meanest intelligence! I only regret I’m not able to attend one of her dinner parties and join the conversation, discussing issues such as Toxic Masculinity and rolling up my sleeves for the washing up afterwards!
minibreakfast says
Bare-chested, I hope, Bing.
Bingo Little says
And the rest, mini.
minibreakfast says
*squeak-squeak-squeak*
RubyBlue says
I wasn’t going to do this, and the phrase ‘flogging a dead horse’ springs to mind, but fuck it.
(i) The tone. If you’re trying to convince people of something and seek their buy in, you don’t address them as if they were a bunch of morons.
I think that’s an issue of perception; I didn’t get that from it, but OOAA.
(ii) The inference that if, as a man (sorry, “heterosexual man” – let’s be super clear on that), you disagree with some or all of the cartoon it’s actually prima facie evidence of your ignorance/complicity/inability to see what’s really going on.
Perhaps, but on a more general level, (obviously) you would allow for the possibility that men and women view, and experience, their relationship in different ways?
(iii) The way it bypasses the fact that relationship roles are entirely negotiated. It’s undeniable that we’re socialized (to some extent) to believe that women should take on more of the domestic work/”mental load”, but the perpetuation of that notion requires the assent of both parties. So why not address both men and women, and speak to them as adults, rather than presenting this as some sort of secret wisdom that all women will understand, but no man can ever truly grasp?
Yes, of course there is a degree of negotiation- but it’s striking that relationships tend to follow fairly predictable patters, as described. ‘Assent?’ Well, ye-e-e-es, but we could get into a whole lotta philosophical argument about ‘free choice’ and how much of that is influenced by wider forces (socialisation etc.)
‘No man can ever truly grasp’…I think this is your reading of it. Often men don’t grasp these issues but no-one is implying that this is some inherent quality in men.
(iv) The bit about how women are portrayed as wives. I think there’s a genuinely interesting debate to be had here. A large part of our social circle is comprised of couples where both parties have/had fairly high flying professional careers. Lots of lawyers, bankers and accountants. The picture changed a few years ago as our friends began having kids and, slowly but surely, the women began to either quit work entirely or downgrade their jobs, while the men pushed on ahead. I didn’t get the sense that any of them were being bullied into this, and it only stands to reason that once one of you is out working 100 hour weeks and the other is at home all day, the division of household labour will become radically skewed (I also know a handful of couples where the man stayed home while the woman has the big career). Are these women being co-opted by the patriarchy? Are they letting down the sisterhood? I don’t think so. They’ve simply negotiated their own relationships in a direction that suits them. I accept that this is entirely anecdotal, and that it’s still easier for a woman to stay home than a man, but I do think it complicates the debate.
See the point above about choices, and how influenced they can be by social forces or internalised psychological ones.
– a fair few women, given the choice, simply prefer the “mental load” of domestic work to their previous careers, as do some men. I don’t know what you do about this
Most women work now, even with children, although admittedly part-time, and have the mental load etc. on top of this.
The ‘choosing’ not to work, or to work less- in some cases this is purely financial. If you choose to have one parent staying at home more, it often makes financial sense for it to be the woman, given the inequalities in salary. Yes it may be a ‘choice’ but not a solely free one (back to the philosophical debate here).
And it works the other way- how many men are really free to choose to be a stay-at-home parent, or work part-time? My partner would have loved to; but do you think he would have become an equity partner in a City law firm?
So my overall point is- choices are complex, and not altogether free.
(v) “11 days after we go through the ordeal of giving birth, our partner (way to mix the singular and plural) goes back to work – and it seems normal to him”.
No it fucking doesn’t, and furthermore do fuck off.
Well, it is kinda normal- see the figures on men’s take-up of paternity leave? Not saying they are all happy about this, and it’s a wider policy and employment issue too, but I don’t see a great clamour for it.
(vi) The notion that if I’m under the impression I do half the chores, I should “confirm it with my partner”, so she can set me straight. Sorry, but she’s not my mother, nor is she the ultimate arbiter of domestic life – that’s sort of the point here.
Fair point, as under this scenario, the female is still ‘in charge’.
(vii) The notion that if the domestic chore gap is narrowing, it’s “not because men are doing more”. Au contraire, it’s because the tasks are being outsourced, “often to poor immigrant women”. Because even when the statistics suggest that the situation is improving, it can only be further evidence of patriarchal oppression.
All the available research suggests men’s share of domestic chores is changing- but not by much. There is a debate to be had about outsourcing but that’s another thread.
(viii) The way it ends. “Alright, I could say more, but I’ll stop for today. In a future comic, I’ll talk about the emotional work that also gets heaped onto women”. Ugh.
Why ‘ugh?’ Emotional labour is a well-researched concept- do you object to the term, or…?
(ix) The fact that the cartoon patronises men who actually do their fair share. What it’s really looking for, the correct male response, is “yes, I recognise this, aren’t we all bastards”. The ones who do their bit are simply airbrushed out of the story (just ask their partners!). Reading it, my chief sensation was to wonder why I bother doing all the hard stuff, when I could just loaf around and then nod sagely on Twitter about how awful I and the others are, thereby conforming to the role the author has assigned me.
Surely a more constructive response would be to recognise that this has been shared and commented on many times, therefore many women find that it chimes with them. Explore why that’s the case, ask questions, see if it really does chime with people you know. In your case it doens’t seem to- but don’t you find it interesting that it’s got such traction?
You could counter-argue that Pepe the Frog memes also have traction, but that is also interesting.
There’s an entirely valid debate to be had about men, women, gender roles, the division of domestic chores and how we’re forced by society into narrow behavioural tramlines. But it would need to be a million times more nuanced than this cartoon, and would reflect the fact that both women and men are complicit in perpetuating (and equally, both suffer as a result of) a lot of these stereotypes.
It’s a cartoon. Not often known for nuance, unless it’s a graphic novel or you’re Chris Ware or someone. It’s there to highlight something, start debate….in that sense, it’s been a success.
‘Complicity’ is interesting. Not quite the right word, although I don’t have a better one. But that is certainly something that needs more exploration. (see for e.g. Ros Coward, ‘Our Treacherous Hearts’.)
I was at a drinks event for the parents from my daughter’s class a couple of months ago. There was one other man there, and he imparted to me a cheery anecdote about the last time he’d attended, when three women had come over to him and the only other bloke in the room, and asked “are you the men without penises then?”. Men who engage and help are too often treated as novelties, or outright peculiarities, and it comes from both women and men, in equal measure. And that’s bullshit.
Agreed.
Equality should be portrayed as a net win for both sexes, because it absolutely is. It’s not a tragic little gender war where one side are saints and the other are perpetually immature, and 50% of the population aren’t (whether by genetics or socialization) stupid, or callous, or congenitally untidy.
I think that’s a bit of a leap from the cartoon, and that characterisation does not represent the majority of feminist thinking (next philosophical debate: ‘what is feminist thinking?’)
I could say more, but I think that’s enough for your tiny little brains. Next time I’ll talk about how a lot of fathers actually quite like being around their kids.
Yes, they do. Would be good if they could do it more, through choice, employment changes, different social expectations, and the (literally) shittier bits.
Anyway- not having a go at you, Bingo, it’s just a handy framework on which to explore thoughts.
JustB says
Up!
Bingo Little says
Thanks for this, Ruby – not to worry, I don’t feel got at at all, it’s just an exchange of views.
It’s probably a dick move at this stage, but I’ll stick with the numbering. For what it’s worth, I think that (tone aside) there’s probably quite a lot of middle ground here.
(i) As you say, a perception issue. Mine was that it’s intensely patronizing.
(ii) I would absolutely allow for the possibility that men and women view, and experience, their relationship in different ways. That’s actually sort of the nub of what I’m saying here – these issues need to be resolved via dialogue, not a lecture. And a lecture is what this felt like (probably why I disliked “I could say more, but I’ll stop there”). I would also add that while men and women view their relationships in different ways, I don’t think that ALL men, or ALL women are nec on the same page. There’s some overlap.
(iii) Absolutely, it’s impossible to know how much is true personal preference and how much is socialization. But that’s my point: both sexes are socialized into these beliefs, and they then go off to negotiate their relationships. You need to address both sexes, because it will take a lot of work (in tandem) from both to unpick a lot of this stuff.
(iv) I am 100% with you on all of this. It’s exactly what I’m saying – men and women are both trapped by gender expectations. If we address them together, we can live happier, more fulfilling and more balanced lives.
(v) I massively, massively disagree with you here. I can vividly remember going back to work after my first was born, and it felt like my heart was on the outside of my body. My wife spent the ten days after birth pretty much laid up in bed, and I bonded with the baby more quickly, was less rattled by the entire thing and took on a lot more of the related chores in those early days. If anything in this cartoon really, really, really pissed me off it was that – I would have killed to stay home with that kid.
(vi) Ta.
(vii) Agreed, probably another thread. Just thought it was a little sad that even the gains being made were waved away like that.
(viii) This was about the tone. No problem with the concept of emotional work (I married a proper Geordie girl, so I’m doing at least my fair share of that stuff too), but I thought this was again incredibly patronising.
(ix) Funnily enough, I already talk to women quite a lot about this stuff. Because I’m quite involved at home I have exactly the same issues that working mums have in terms of work/life balance and that nagging feeling of doing two things badly, so I often find myself chatting to friends and colleagues about it. I get that these are live issues. I just don’t think they’re live issues solely for women, and I dislike the way that men are airbrushed out of the picture, even when we’re in much the same boat.
As for traction, is the cartoon that popular?
FWIW, I love my job, but I’d gladly give it up to be at home with the kids, because they dick all over work. Even the rubbish bits, and the many many chores. My wife feels precisely the same way: we both work because we want to live near family in London. We decided that rather than one of us having the big career and vanishing, we’d both work a bit, be at home at bit and try to see each other and the kids. That’s our balance, and what works for us.
I think there’s an interesting story to be told about the barriers that face men who do decide to place a greater priority on family life, and that a little more understanding of it might benefit everyone in the debate. It’s not made easy, is the short version – we can be oppressed by gender norms too. I also don’t think it’s just men who do the oppressing: my mum worked full time, and nobody gave her more crap for not being at home and looking after the husband/kids than other women. My wife also gets her share of snidey comments from the stay at homes when she’s at the school gate. It’s all part of the big picture.
What I’m saying is let’s all give each other a bit of a break, and work this bullshit out together, because we all suffer from it in different ways. Perhaps the cartoon helps towards that, but personally that wasn’t my experience of it.
From what you’ve said on this thread, I put myself in your shoes and I see why the cartoon resonated. From what I’ve said, can you put yourself in mine and see why it irked a little?
Cheers for your thoughts.
RubyBlue says
Yes, a lot of middle ground there. My next comment below about a fictional situation illustrates your point about male gender norms, I think.
Regarding going back to work– absolutely more men would want to be at home for longer. Stats don’t bear this out but as I was (badly) trying to say, this may be due to the difficulty in doing so- financially, gender expectations etc. So they either want to but can’t; don’t want to; want to but have internalised messages that they ‘should’ go back to work, hence ‘normal’.
It did get a lot of traction- I saw it a lot on FB but more importantly for this argument, Mumsnet- pages and pages of debate and is still referred to. Not to be dismissed, millions of members.
But yes, let’s give each other a break, work it out together.
Bingo Little says
Yep, absolutely makes sense.
And if it went large on Mumsnet, then it’s definitely a big deal.
RubyBlue says
Le cheval mort.
To illustrate the issue of ‘choice’.
Now, let’s take this entirely fictional example and not at ALL about anyone I know.
A thirty-something man has a child. He would like to spend more time with said child, despite it being a shitting, vomiting, sleepless, screaming MONSTER. *coughs*
Ways he could spend more time with his child:
1. Take paternity leave. Two weeks, which was what was all that was allowed at the time. He does this and enjoys it, despite his unnamed partner climbing the walls with PND.
2. Perhaps work part-time. Hmmmm.
He is on the partnership track. His company does not allow- yes, that’s does not allow, partners to work part-time*. Hmmm.
Well, don’t be a partner then! Work isn’t everything!
Yeah but the unnamed female partner earns bugger all in the public sector. Could they live on that, in London? Well, you chose a big mortgage, suck it up, buttercup. It’s possible, but…
But it’s more than this.
He’s an Oxbridge maths graduate, PhD from Imperial. Very good at his job. Self-image and status are based on these factors, to an extent. His father works very successfully in the same niche field.
If he works part-time, he loses money, yes, but also his career path, status, a changed self-image, the (perhaps) disappointment of friends and family.
So not much of a ‘choice’, there. You could say those things don’t matter- but they do, to him and to our view of men ‘s roles. Each ‘choice’ is a complex mixture of social and psychological factors.
And what happened to his bright, talented but lowly-paid female partner? cont. p. 96…
*They do now. Because his partner told him they might have a sex discrimination case on their hands. 🙂 They have also stopped addressing all letters with ‘Dear Sir’.
I probably shouldn’t have written this and it reminds me a bit of Vic & Bob’s Greg Mitchell, with a gender reverse : “My wife’s gonna kill me.”
Bingo Little says
This example probably explains where we’re both coming from, Ruby.
I was at a city firm, on the partner track when my eldest was born. I quit within 3 months, as I’d always said I’d do, because I didn’t think I could balance the two things.
I loved that job. Part of me still misses it. But childhood is over in a heartbeat, and the time I’ve had with the kids has been absolutely bloody priceless.
Other life paths are available.
RubyBlue says
Yes they are, but at a cost, which will vary of course. And not available to everyone.
We both have the [dread word] privilege and luxury of ‘choice’.
Bingo Little says
Yep, and the really tough thing is that the cost only truly plays itself out over the long term, whichever path you choose. The head tells you that you can’t have it all. The heart doesn’t always get the memo.
RubyBlue says
True. And in a more sociological and psychological sense, it will be interesting how things change, as they inevitably will: I think we’re in a period of flux at the moment (all of this is pretty new).
Bingo Little says
Totally agree. One of the hardest things about all this is that there is no playbook: we’re the first generation facing a lot of these challenges, and we’re making up the rules as we go.
Sewer Robot says
A period of flux between when I would have had all my servants do the work and when I will have my robots do all the work..
Hawkfall says
On the subject of Greg Mitchell, whenever I’m in Ikea and pass the Gosig Golden soft toy, I can’t help picking one up, putting its front paw across its nose and going “Roowwr no, no no, what was I finking!”
http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/childrens-ikea-products/children-3-7/toys-play/gosig-golden-soft-toy-dog-golden-retriever-art-00132798/
RubyBlue says
You see, if more men acted like this in IKEA, relationships would be a lot happier.
dkhbrit says
I just tried to write something to reflect my thoughts in an intelligent and amusing fashion about this but failed miserably. You guys are all so much better at the writing thing. So’ I’ll just say it was bollocks.
chiz says
As a bloke who recognises his many deficiencies in this department and has tried to get better at it over the last 30 years, there’s plenty I can chuckle at in the cartoon. Among my remaining blindspots are dirt (I can’t see it unless I really, really make an effort) and remembering to write ‘butter’ on the shopping list when I finish the butter. I cook, I shop, I do the ironing, the finances and the garden, but ’40 dot dot’ on a shirt label still sends me into a panic.
But then as a bloke who recognises his many deficiencies in this department and has etc etc I’m not sure that womansplaining it like this is the best way to influence my behaviour. Perhaps that’s not the point of it.
RubyBlue says
Asking for a friend- she’s a woman who wants to influence your behaviour. How would my friend do that?
Moose the Mooche says
Withdraw sexual privileges.
Assuming there are any.
RubyBlue says
Heh.
And I suppose the question itself is an interesting one; that it would somehow be the woman’s role to influence behaviour (or at least to initiate conversations about it).
chiz says
How else would you change something other than by initiating a conversation about it? Draw a picture?
RubyBlue says
Through the medium of interpretive dance, surely?
RubyBlue says
Look at pick-up artists for how to change behaviour without saying a word.
Perhaps I should touch him lightly on the upper arm every time he puts a dish away.
chiz says
Nah just tell him what’s on your mind. Assume he’s an adult, initially at least. Although the dancing sounds fun too.
H.P. Saucecraft says
I think a blowie is always appreciated, Ruby.
RubyBlue says
Problem is, my knees hurt too much from all the floor scrubbing.
Moose the Mooche says
I started to respond to this, but became so overpowered by self-loathing that I actually spat up my own lungs.
chiz says
Tell her to try and avoid using crayons or broad brushes
Vulpes Vulpes says
My wife can leave stuff lying around for England. I’m the one who puts it away. If I didn’t, I reckon most of our clothes and kitchen stuff would be randomly distributed throughout the house in less than a month.
Arthur Cowslip says
Which raises the question, what are you going to do about it? You have three choices:
1) Do nothing. It doesn’t really matter and life is too short.
2) Speak to your partner about it and try to come to some compromise, like adults.
3) Let your resentment fester and then write a comic strip about how you have to bear the mental load of preventing your house from becoming a mess.
I’ve enjoyed reading all the arguments on this thread. It’s been civil and enlightening. That said, I’m still perturbed by that comic strip and I think my beef is that it seems to sidestep (2) in reaching (3). To me, that’s how it reads, and I just don’t like someone taking the moral high ground unless they have demonstrated an active desire to resolve the issue first.
Vulpes Vulpes says
My choice is the obvious, and only grown-up one, given that your option 2 has been explored and exhausted countless times already. I shall carry on putting it all away. As you say, it doesn’t really matter and life’s too short. And I love the silly bunny anyway.
In fact I could wickedly chuckle to myself with the gleeful knowledge that once I’ve popped my clogs (as men do usually go first) the place will gradually descend into one of those ‘can’t open the living room door because of the pile of unwashed dinner dishes strewn across the floor’ houses you see on daytime telly. Allegedly. And Social Services will have a bloody nightmare finding the washing up liquid.
Lemonhope says
There is a fourth option, Arthur – Kill yourself – ‘You don’t have to do anything’
https://youtu.be/80sd0lIi9i0?t=1m49s
Leicester Bangs says
We both work from home so I reckon it’s evenly distributed and I think it works pretty well. Saying that, my wife often refers to her mental load, but doesn’t seem to consider the fact that I have a mental load of my own.
Lemonhope says
Pig!
badartdog says
I’m a single dad, my 8 year old son lives with me full time, I have a full time job. My girlfriend comes to stay every other week-end. It’s a good job she does as it provides the incentive to clean and tidy the place.
I’m also a trained illustrator and comic book fan.
Whatever the sentiment of that strip, its creator should be horse-whipped for using that font. Just look at the space between the f and any following letter. Ugh. More a f eminist than a feminist.
Arthur Cowslip says
I love the nice pointed criticism from a technical perspective. Sort out yer fonts, ya feminists!
Mike_H says
This is the kind of nerd-response I’ve been waiting for.
What took you so long?
Standards are really slipping around here.
Lemonhope says
You’ve encapsulated so much in that post, bdog
Lemonhope says
Having looked at my post again it could be misinterpreted – I am completely sincere, referencing the first part [I have no knowledge of fonts but having looked again armed with new information I see what you mean – hideous]
Black Celebration says
I am working on an ill-thought out theory that there is an adult-child phase that goes from roughly 30 to roughly 45.
I look back on the things that used to cause me stress and/or mortify me (e.g. a chance visit from someone when the house is a mess) and consider that worry a bit strange now. Standards haven’t dropped to hoarder proportions but it’s not like there’s a dead pig on the lounge carpet (most days). I still gripe at the kids but I am phoning it in these days.
Or when one of the kids is performing or playing sport. These days, I genuinely don’t care if they win/lose, forget their lines or whatever – as long as they enjoy it and they did their best, I’m happy. I didn’t used to be like that.
And mingling with other parents at school things. I used to really make an effort and made some awful cringe-worthy friendship decisions, just to fit in. I don’t give a flying one now.
As a 51 year old I am wondering if I am getting more endorphins through a natural process. My parents got much less stressed as they got older.
RubyBlue says
I haven’t thought this through at all and i’ve only had one cup of tea, but you may be on to something. I suspect some issues come from pressure re: how we think things should be, or how we think other people will perceive them. When actually with parenting, some of the minor things that cause you angst don’t matter at all in the long run eg sports drama, school gates crap, homework, shiny tidy house.
I wonder if some of the problems are to do with different expectations about x thing, these expectations not being communicated, and maybe a lack of reflection on where these expectations come from.
See: money, sex, housework, parenting, emotional communication etc etc.
Blah blah more tea blah
Arthur Cowslip says
Yes!
bricameron says
Men!!! Have you learned nothing?