I have a postal vote and made the mistake of opening the envelope late last night. Clearly I’ve not been paying attention up here in the North West of England as there are any number of Parties on the ballot slip I was unaware of, up to 8 candidates in each Party – most of whom I’ve never heard of – APART from the last (hopefully) candidate on the list…Robinson, Tommy.
I have no idea who is favourite for my region (and it must be a big region, the North West) but I think I need to wake up. I’ve never voted tactically in my life but think this could be a first.
Twang says
I’m nagging everyone I know to make their vote count and out a cross in the box. I hate the though of a job lot of mini Farage bastards representing us in Europe.
Freddy Steady says
Exactly @twang
But who to vote for to ensure none of the whacko’s get in?
Twang says
Well I’m a Lib Dem so that’s where my vote is going but I’d be happy with a Green or CUK candidate if they have a better chance. As all the others are Brexit supporting I wouldn’t go near them.
Moose the Mooche says
Is “Tommy Robinson” standing under his own name or “Tommy Robinson”? If he is, is that legal?
I don’t know why he uses a false name, it’s almost as if he wants to shield his Irish immigrant background from his followers…
Gatz says
I doubt that Lord Buckethead has that name on his passport https://www.euronews.com/2019/04/22/eu-elections-lord-buckethead-is-standing-against-nigel-farage
androo1963 says
This might help.
https://www.remainunited.org/
fortuneight says
Thanks for posting the link. As someone who was on the fence as to which way to vote (Green vs Lib Dem) it’s helped. Quite depressing however – a 50% tactical vote would trim Farage by just 3 seats., and move the Remain MEP’s from 10 out of 70 to 16. Bummer.
Mike_H says
Seven seats for East Of England, which is my region and seven candidates for each of Labour, LibDem, Conservative, Green, CUK, UKIP & Brexit. A further four for English Democrats and one Independent.
Although normally a Labour voter by inclination I can’t support them this time around.
My votes will be for LibDem, Green or CUK candidates only.
Currently we have 3 UKIP, 3 Conservative and 1 Labour MEPs. I suspect we’re going to wind up with 4 or 5 Brexit MEPs this time around, maybe 6.
Tiggerlion says
Stephen Laxley-Lennon is standing as an Independent but is ‘supported’ by the far right For Britain party. He needs, I think, 11.5% of the vote to win a seat.
The way to keep him out is, first, flood the vote. The more people who vote, the more votes he needs to win. Make sure everyone you know bothers to vote. Second, don’t vote for him. Anyone else will do. Even if all your friends and family vote for Farage, it will help keep Laxley-Lennon out.
He’s banking on mobilising his support in a low turnout.
Moose the Mooche says
For Britain is so far-right that Morrissey supports them. Wow!
The Good Doctor says
Exactly. A good proportion of his fanbase are probably ‘missing’ from the electoral roll or in prison but complacency could have sickening consequences. Every none-bigoted person in the North West needs to get out and vote.
Vincent says
Note from the above that this mess suggests Labour have been neutralised by Brexiteers as Jeremy Lenin and his Comintern wants out from the big capitalist organisation that is Europe and so all his party (mostly rRemain) are subject to his ideology – which he currently lacks the cojones to admit is why he has done eff-all. Labour voters can thus vote Lib or Change. Such is how the Left has enabled the next European Parliament to probably have a right-wing majority. Good work, chaps. The politicking and cunning plans showed them. A bad Government needs a decent Opposition. The UK doesn’t have one. Christ knows where this all ends up.
Vulpes Vulpes says
How right you are, er, I mean, how correct you are. Like Twang I shuuder at the thought of that duck-mouthed millionaire loudmouth Farage not only spouting his vile opinions in Europe, but getting paid for it out of my taxes. Will no one rid us of this troublesome prat?
Twang says
What makes my skin crawl is the rest of Europe looks at him and his pals and thinks “they voted for these wankers”.
Mind you, as @vincent said, I think there are quite a few wankers going to be heading for Europe from other countries too this time around.
Mike Hull says
According to Gina Miller’s End the Chaos website, those of us wanting to vote tactically for a Remain Party need to vote Lib Dem in England, SNP in Scotland and Plaid Cymru in Wales. Labour is treated as a Leave-supporting party based on how its leadership is behaving. I gather this has created a bit of a furore (as with everything Brexit) but it does illustrate how divided the Remain vote it.
https://www.facebook.com/249398639101022/posts/338529740187911?s=100000221944112&sfns=mo
Lando Cakes says
No. There is no way I will be voting for a party that, in 2014, campaigned for Scotland to leave the EU, by leaving the UK. Any SNP vote will be taken as support for the only thing they actually care about – leaving the UK. The economic and social consequences of which will be an order of magnitude worse than leaving the EU.
Freddy Steady says
Lib Dem! There’s no chance of getting Nick Clegg back though?
Twang says
Sadly gone. I like Layla Moran though.
Vulpes Vulpes says
Having brown nosed Camer00n and 0sb0rne, he’s now trousering dollars from the Zuckerb0rg. Difficult to see how he could have spent the last ten years more greedily gathering crumbs at everyone else’s expense.
chiz says
These elections are basically the second referendum that so many want – and it’s not looking too good for Remain:
BREX: 34% (+4)
LAB: 16% (-5)
LDEM: 15% (+5)
GRN: 11% (+2)
CON: 10% (-3)
CHUK: 5% (-4)
(YouGov)
Tiggerlion says
People don’t seem to realise that a vote for Con or Lab is effectively a wasted vote. A vote for either major party tells no-one if you wish to remain or leave. The Brexit Party will crow from the rooftops if they beat Lib/Grn/ChUK combined (they’ll ignore Scotland).
ernietothecentreoftheearth says
It’s not the narrative that will be presented, but it also suggests that there is a clear majority against a Hard and/or No Deal Brexit. Something like 60% plus in favour of parties along the spectrum of the May Deal to Remain.
retropath2 says
I suspect they are the 2nd referendum Brexit need/want/desire. Remainers are still vacillating around, desperately seeing if/how/where their vote could or should go, as, with both too little choice and too many options.
Twang says
All the tactical voting sites plus common sense says vote Lib Dems if you want to fight back against dozens of Faragists heading for Brussels.
Diddley Farquar says
Labour (Corbyn) presumes to present Labour as a party for both remainers and leavers. May wants to believe her approach can appeal to both sides. Many voters won’t be dwelling on Brexit. They’ll vote loyally as always for whatever party they are normally drawn to, regardless. This idea of the elections as a referendum om EU membership is flawed and ill-conceived. Many will see it as a referendum, many will not. Commentators are counting potential votes for Labour and Tory as leave votes. They are counting Lib Dems, Greens and CHUK as remain. It’s a lot of infuriating nonsense. Nuance gets trampled on once more to give easily digestible, misleading headlines. And Farage will get the it’s Leave wot won it message broadcast load and clear for him. So vote Lib Dem.
johnw says
If it says election then it’s not a referendum. Unless the question is unambiguous then the reply can be spun.
Possibly the most neutral thing to do, if you want to get a quasi referendum result, is to add all the declared remain parties together and the leave parties together and ignore the results of those that can’t make their mind up on that score (or divide it in two, it makes no difference).
Once you’ve done that you need to guess how the people that didn’t vote would vote in a referendum because this isn’t a referendum so doesn’t count!
Tiggerlion says
Even so.
Vote Lib Dem in England.
Alias says
In their 2015 manifestos the Lib Dems and the Greens committed to a referendum. Every Lib Dem with the exception of Nick Clegg (who was away) voted to legislate for it in 2015 as did Caroline Lucas. They didn’t like the result so now oppose it. Nigel Farage will have a field day exposing their duplicity.
Twang says
The LDs voted for it because the question needed to be resolved. Clegg debated Farage in favour of remaining (the only one who did) and consistently made the case for Europe in the face of apathy from Labour, the Tories and an overwhelming anti Europe press. There’s nothing inconsistent in voting for a referendum and hating the result, especially when it was such a shameful exercise from end to end. In fact it’s the responsible thing to do.
salwarpe says
I don’t get a vote in the UK for this election, bit if I did, I’d vote Green, because their policies are closest to the values I adhere to. As @JohnW says, it’s an election, not a referendum, and it may be that the MEPs you vote for, if there’s sufficient support for Remain-endorsing Parties, are there for some time to come.
The electoral system for the Euro vote isn’t as shit as the FPTP stitch up, so there’s more of a possibility of the Party you actually support getting a representative elected, rather than the Party you’d accept if they beat the Party you detest.
But democracy is more than just a month-long beauty contest. Farage was on QT so often because of the overall number of UKIP voters across the country, in spite of not winning a seat. If you don’t vote for the party you want to win, because you don’t think other people will, that’s a counsel of despair.
It may of course split the remain vote if those in England don’t vote Lib Dem, bit looking at the remain united website linked to above, in the Eastern region where I would have been voting, voting tactically wouldn’t seem to increase the remain MEPs or decrease the number of Brexit MEPs anyway.
I suspect what will be measured as much as the number of MEPs on each side, will be the overall number of votes for Remain or Leave supporting Parties.
Better to be a signpost than a weathervane, I’d suggest.
Diddley Farquar says
There will still be Labour remain voters. Most of their MPs are remain. There will be some Tory remainers (hello mother!). If you allow for that there could well be a majority for remain. But it can’t be calculated so the whole thing is a stupid game that Farage (and other hard Brexiteers) can spin with his phoney party and plenty of media will play along for the easy false narrative rather than the confusing truth. The bastards. The utter shits.
Diddley Farquar says
It’s been pointed out that the Brexit party are still not as high in the euro polls as UKIP were at their peak which was 38% and they went on to get 27% in the actual elections.
Gary says
Recently I keep reading left wing Remainers accusing the BBC of right wing/Leave bias and right wing Leavers accusing it of left wing/Remain bias. It’s very confusing.
Moose the Mooche says
And people in the middle accusing it of pandering to extremists. I’m with them there.
chiz says
It was fun watching the Corbeebies get all pouty about Farage being on BBC twice in a week. Imagine! The leader of the party that’s topping the polls for next week’s election being allowed on air by the state broadcasting corporation alongside representatives of the other parties! It’s a new low in shameless bias.
And then they got all confused on Sunday because Marr failed to lie down and lick Farage’s boots, and just, like, asked searching questions and let his interviewee make himself look a bit of a tosser. Not that they’d know it, of course, but there was an equal and opposite school of thought [sic] that felt good old Nige had been fitted up good an proper by yer elite lefty media, innit. Meanwhile everyone hates the ‘extreme centrists’ and ‘ultra remainers.’ Go figure.
Twang says
If Labour do have a spokesperson on it’s bloody Barry Gardener who never says anything beyond “well, yes, in that case, err, we’d have to look at the details and take it to the governing body and membership and have a ballot and discuss at conference and this is all very clear blah blah blah”. Tom Watson was on Today this morning and was a bit better.
fortuneight says
Yes, it’s notable that they never put up / allow Benn to speak, and rare to to Starmer despite the latter being their Brexit person. All Gardener does is go on about their bloody table and how everything’s on it. We don’t need everything – just an alternative to leaving.
Moose the Mooche says
When I said extremists I was thinking of people like Claire Fox (seriously – she’s an absolute head-the-ball)
They go, “Let’s illuminate this issue by having on two people from opposite ends of the spectrum who represent absolutely no-one, but are tremendous “characters” and are GOOD TELLY”.
Viewers see this and go, “Is is possible to kill yourself by putting your head in a fan-oven?”
Lando Cakes says
Fox is one of the Revolutionary Communist Party alumni who crop up everywhere in a series of front organisations.
can never make up my mind whether it’s a deep entryist plot or they’re batshit crazy or – aha! – both.
Morrison says
This is one of the stranger aspects of modern politics – polytechnic lefties from the 80s turning up as right wing mavericks. See also Brendon O’Neill and his crowd over at Spiked.com – according to Private Eye funded by the Koch Bros who have bankrolled right wing causes to the tune of billions for decades in the US. Probably here as well now – what with the TPA and IEA and others in Turton St SW1 with opaque funding models.
All of these organisations are regular BBC favourites – popping up on every current affairs/news programme with amazing regularity particularly Jeremy Vine’s awful phone-in.
Perhaps there comes a time in every 80s lefty’s life that they realise there’s more money to be made lurching rightwards.
Moose the Mooche says
Well the RCP are/were “lefties” in the sense that the DDR was democratic. Very odd bods.
Twang says
Did you see Farage on Marr yesterday? Dreadful. I am quite sure his supporters thought it was a triumphant performance despite Marr’s attempts to hold him to account. He’s a destructive force of nature, like a tornado or tsunami half the bloody country want to flatten everything.
Vulpes Vulpes says
I can’t watch Farago on the telly any more. I immediately have an uncontrollable desire to yell “shut the f*ck up you f*cking c*nt” every time I see his face. If I ever found myself alone in a lift with him, I’m afraid he’d be dead before the doors opened again.
chiz says
Ah, a joke about brutally murdering a politician. Still feels a bit soon, to be honest
Vulpes Vulpes says
Ever read “Rogue Male”?
chiz says
No I haven’t but as we learned from the Danny Baker experience, context is nothing.
If you changed ‘Farago’ to, say, Jess Philips, Rachel Riley or Fiona Bruce in your post above, you’d be banned by now. And probably reported to the police. How do you explain to the ‘gormless, angry and myopic’ 34% that you’re allowed to threaten to kill people you don’t like, but they’re not?
Vulpes Vulpes says
I said I feared the outcome, in a vanishingly unlikely hypothetical scenario, for dramatic effect. Get a grip.
chiz says
That’s exactly what a gormless, angry and myopic thug would say
Vulpes Vulpes says
Sorry chizzer old chap, but I’m struggling to see what point you’re trying to make here. Hang on, let me get my glasses….
Nope, none the wiser.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
John Crace attended a Farage rally today
““NI-GEL, NI-GEL.”
Here was an all too possible version of the future. One where nuance and complexity have given way to soundbites and populism. Where lip service is paid to healing divisions, providing it’s everyone else who is making the compromise. It was one of the most genuinely disturbing political events I’ve ever attended. And Westminster ought to be shit-scared.”
Oh lord, what have we done?
fortuneight says
Farage is embracing the Trump model. Marr tried to hold him to account on Sunday morning but Farage just blew him off – lying about what he’d said in the past. If you lie boldly enough and often enough it, lots buy it. Marr seems to fold all to easily these days – my guess is with rival programs on Sky and ITV he fears losing access to guests.
Vulpes Vulpes says
Farage knows how to do the pub bully thing in excelsis; shout over your opponent repeatedly, mock their credentials without answering anything, and lie, lie, lie. The trouble with trying to “interview” him is that he doesn’t do interviews, doesn’t have a debating position or a reasoned argument for anything; he’s all cliches, sound-bites, and lies, lies, lies. The only way anyone would ever get him to acknowledge the vacuous nature of his puerile spoutings would be to shout him down and bellow back, which on TV is guaranteed to lead directly to a flounce and the accusation of an anti-democratic agenda, giving him a win on points in the eyes of pub bloke. He is beyond reason.
thecheshirecat says
And he is making it clear that the Brexit party will have no manifesto. ‘Vote for us, so we can do what the hell we like / make it up as we go along.’ Yet vote for them, many will surely do.
Twang says
The Times podcast excellent on this yesterday. Farage is using the 2016 playbook again. Don’t define anything, project yourself as a universal panacea to all grievances and problems by a set of simplistic generic rabble rousing statements. As they said, he thinks he’s in a cage fight and the others think they’re playing croquet.
Blue Boy says
I look at my North West voting slip, and am still deeply conflicted. Labour are a mess on Brexit. Corbyn is shockingly inept. The failure to deal with anti-Semitism is a stain on a party that is supposed to stand against racism. And yet…
Get past Corbyn and the Labour Party, and most of its MPs still stand for what I believe in, and stand for the EU. I don’t accept that a vote for Labour is a vote for Brexit. I was really struck by Tony Blair’s characteristically clear column over the weekend when he urged everyone to get out and vote down Farage – either by voting for a clear Remain party, or, as he will do, for the Labour Party. If the person who the Corbynistas hate more than they hate Farage can still vote for them, then I guess so can anyone.
But all that said, there is so much about Corbyn’s Labour I just don’t want to endorse. I want the sensible Labour Party, the one that’s capable of getting into government, back. Voting for Corbyn isn’t the way to get it.
So, probably, it’s the Lib Dems. Maybe….
Vulpes Vulpes says
I still have my old membership card, the one with Clause 4 proudly printed on it, but I’ll be voting Lib Dem here as the most effective way to ram my own little personally sharpened pointed democratic stick up the right nostril of that Farago twunt so hard it makes his ears bleed.
At the very least I will offset a teensy weensy bit of the 34% who are so gormless, angry and myopic that they will give credence to a conniving tyrant in waiting.
fortuneight says
Heard Alaistair Campbell on the radio at weekend twisting and turning as to whether he would vote Labour this time round. He kept falling back on pitching the idea that Labour would suddenly see the light and start behaving like the official opposition. Some chance.
I used to follow a few left wing commentators and blogs on Facebook, but I’ve binned just about all of them bar Tom Watson. The bile thrown at the MPS that moved to Change UK seemed to me to validate their decision. The constant denigration of Blair – the bloke that actualy got them into power – and their refusal to substatively deal with anti-Semitism but pledge allegance to the bloke that didn’t has made me give up. And then came the abuse at Laura Kuenssberg for daring to suggest that Labour’s haammering at the recent local elections was a bigger story than Tory losses. Delusional.
In the last few elections I’d voted Labour. It seems Nasty Nige is one of my MEPs, so I’ve already posted my vote in favour of the LibDems given I’ve no real clue what the Labour position is, and no appetite anymore for Jezza’s bullshit.
chiz says
Those left wing commentators obviously don’t realise how much they are damaging Corbyn with their increasingly disastrous attempts to protect him.
Let’s not tell them, though, hey.
Alias says
Labour lost 84 Councillors and control of 6 councils. The Tories lost 1,330 Councillors and control of 44 councils.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/ceeqy0e9894t/england-local-elections-2019
I must be delusional, so please explain why Labour losses IS a bigger story. than Tory losses.
chiz says
because the main opposition party has always been the chief beneficiary of a protest vote against an unpopular government, until now. It’s unprecedented to miss an open goal so comprehensively
Alias says
So catastrophic losses is a non story as long as you are unpopular.
Twang says
Even John McDonnell’s estimate was 400 gain. Againt this dreadful government they should have done a lot better. But if you’re happy with their performance that’s fine of course.
Both stories are important given the current situation.
chiz says
And of course we filter out the headlines we don’t want to see. Here’s the BBC’s analysis:
Local elections: Conservatives lose more than 1300 councillors
Labour also lost 82 seats in the English local elections, in which it had been expected to make gains.
And the Guardian:
Local elections 2019: Conservatives see huge losses in England – as it happened
Lib Dems and Greens surge on bad night for both main parties in council elections in England
It’s not really a “Labour loses are bigger then Tory loses’ narrative at all
Blue Boy says
Exactly. All the coverage I heard led with the Conservatives disastrous loss before going on to say that Labour also had a terrible night. Which they manifestly did. To actually lose seats when the Tories are losing 1300 and are as unpopular as they ever have been is an awful performance.
Lando Cakes says
Because ‘man bites dog’ is a bigger story than ‘dog bites man’.
fortuneight says
I was being unfair to Laura – she never suggested it was the bigger strory. But that was how the Labour supporting blogs and commentators took it – from Owen Jones all the way to Adrian Legg. It’s delusional because this is the second electoral test that a Corbyn led opposition has faced, and the second significant failure.
Just compare it to the 1995 local elections. Major oversees the loss of 2,000 councillors and Labour take a record breaking 48% of the vote. Comparatively the 2019 was a disaster for Labour – there can’t have been a time when there was a more unpopular government and prime minister. But rather than take stock of why, the narrative is (once again) Laura K’s bias.
Labour aren’t reaping the benefits that an opposition party is supposed to. And that’s on top of the last general election, which Corbyn’s Labour failed to win, despite one of the worst campaigns ever seen from the Tories and no significant opposition from LibDems. He may continue to appeal to a lot of the party faithful, but that won’t make him PM. There is nothing – absolutely nothing – more I’d like to see than the Tories dumped from power, locally, at Westminster and in Europe. But his mealy mouthed equivocation over Brexit and anti-Semitism is an abject failure of leadership.
Lando Cakes says
It is, as you say, delusional and this is one of the hallmarks of the Corbynites. There’s a horrifying similarity with Trump supporters in their adherence to “alternative facts”.
To be fair, there’s a lot of it about – the SNP and UKIP/Brexit are part of the same phenomenon.
I’m old-fashioned enough to expect better from Labour though.
thecheshirecat says
My Labour MEPs have kept me informed while they have been in office and I have every reason to believe they have served me well. They will get my vote again this time around. After all, they will almost certainly take up position; with any luck for a decent length of time. Don’t vote Protest or on the basis of Westminster; vote for the person you want to act for you in the European Parliament. Isn’t that what you’re meant to do?
Twang says
Of course. But Labour is a brexit supporting party so I couldn’t vote for them.
Mike_H says
I agree, but you wouldn’t vote for a Labour candidate anyway @Twang, because you are a Liberal Democrat by conviction.
I come from a family of Labour supporters, right back to when the Independent Labour Party was first formed. It’s pretty much in my genes.
I voted for the Labour candidate for my ward in the recent council elections, because I didn’t want the party-nominated replacement for my retiring long-serving Labour councillor to be replaced with yet another Lib-Dem. We have more than enough of them on our local council already. But I will not be voting for the 7 Labour EU Election candidates next week, because their party are currently Brexit supporters and I am not. I shall be voting for the Lib-Dem candidates.
On the local council, the fact that Labour’s party hierarchy are supporting Brexit is of no great significance. In the European Parliament, it’s of enormous significance.
Twang says
Agreed. I have voted Labour in the past. Really I’m a floating voter but the two parties are too extreme which leaves me in the middle!
thecheshirecat says
But I have little doubt that the candidates for whom I voted are Remainers. I could do with more of them in the Labour Party.
Lando Cakes says
I’m torn. I’ve never voted for anyone but Labour but their list of candidates in Scotland includes support for both leaving the EU and leaving the UK. I mean, WTF?
On the other hand, top of the list is David Martin, who is an excellent MEP and a Remainer.
So I don’t know – it’ll be Labour or the Lib Dems.
fortuneight says
Except you can’t vote for a chosen MEP. I have one vote to cast but there are 10 seats to be filled. Bernie Sanders brother Larry may be the guy I’d trust the most with my vote but he is ranked something like 6th for the Greens, so he’s basically just making up the numbers.
Blue Boy says
Theresa Griffin is an excellent MEP, committed to Europe and a sensible Labour Party. I’d love to vote for her, but right now I don’t believe her party’s leadership has earned that vote. It’s a damn shame.
thecheshirecat says
That’s the name I want to see re-elected.
Freddy Steady says
Postal vote completed. Lib Dems for me – first time I’ve ever voted tactically.
Tiggerlion says
Well done!
Hamlet says
It’ll be Lib Dem for me, too.
One question about Scotland and the EU: I’ve heard Nicola Sturgeon repeatedly make the point that Scotland didn’t vote to leave the EU, and that the Scottish referendum result was predicated on the UK being part of the EU. However, if Scotland had a second referendum tomorrow and they voted to leave the UK, surely they’d have to, as an independent country, then reapply to join the EU? As in, they’d be at the back of the queue of countries wanting to join? Can someone with more knowledge than me clear this up?
Mike_H says
Not necessarily at the back of the queue, assuming that there is in fact a queue. An independent Scotland could be fast-tracked purely as a way of tweaking Theresa May’s nose.
I don’t believe there are currently aspiring EU members who would even be considered. Turkey currently has less than a snowball’s chance in hell.
Lando Cakes says
I think Spain might have some thoughts re fast-tracking an independent Scotland…
In any event it would entail signing up for the Euro, Shengen etc. Inevitably, there would need to be a customs and immigration border with England.
The ensuing economic and social disaster would have the nationalists looking for scapegoats, as they do.
Lando Cakes says
Indeed. And in 2014 the SNP campaigned for Scotland to leave the EU by dint of leaving the UK.
The *only* thing the SNP care about is establishing a separate Scottish state, based on the mystical perfection gained by the annexation of Shetland in 1472.
Moose the Mooche says
Another day, another photograph of Theresa in the back of the limo, having kicked it into the long grass for the seventieth time, with that very strange half-smile on her face. It’s like everything is stuck on pause.
pencilsqueezer says
I finally decided to act upon a decision I think I made a while ago but I’ve been putting off. I left Labour and joined The Green Party.
It’s a matter of personal conscience. I can’t truly continue with Labour while The Cult Of The Magic Grandpa are in charge of the party. Quite apart from the party’s stance over Brexit which I vehemently disagree with I can’t stand the insidious undercurrent of anti-Semitism that is undoubtedly present and not being dealt with. So I weighed up the options and sorry Twang the Lib Dems are not for me and although there are aspects of The Green Party I am not comfortable with they are the closest fit.
I’ll be voting Green on the 23rd despite living in Wales. Plaid Cymru seems to be being recommend as the tactical choice for remainers in Wales but I have deep reservations about nationalist politics and so I can’t bring myself to lend them my vote.
Interesting times. I so wish they weren’t.
Gary says
Why not the Lib Dems, Squeezy? What exactly don’t you like? I love some of the Green policies and have great respect for Caroline Lucas, but I just can’t bring myself to vote for the idea of a ban on animal testing in medical research.
pencilsqueezer says
Hi gorgeous. It’s the getting into bed with Call Me Dave that I can’t get past. I did my due diligence on the options and The Green Party won out…just. You’ve put your finger on my major qualm with The Greens, the animal research conundrum. I go along with not using animals for research when other options are available but if push comes to shove then the puppy is gonna get it as far as I’m concerned.
I’ve never seen, heard or read any political party’s schtick that completely chimes with me but as I said The Green Party is not too bad a fit all in all.
chiz says
Well done PS – I’ve done the same. Well not actually joined the Greens but transferred my vote from Labour to them. Not so much for the short term, which is going to be bloody however we vote, but to start building what comes after that.
pencilsqueezer says
Thanks Chiz. I should have left Labour before now really. I’ve been growing disenchanted with them for some time.
I agree about being around and trying to act positively when the time comes. Goodness knows what form that action will take as everything seems to be in a state of flux with nothing concrete to focus upon. We will see but I’d be lying if I said I felt overly optimistic however that doesn’t mean I feel defeatist. Where there is life etc.
Twang says
I’m with the Greens re the environment but many of their other policies not so much. I have read the manifesto which is a fine list of causes to spend money on. Not a word about how this money is going to be generated.
Sadly this is student politics. It’s very easy to spend money. Making it is a bit more difficult.
Anyway the LDs are equally hot on the environment and the coalition is ancient history. I could bore you on why it was the right thing to do but I can’t be arsed. I just hope all the smaller parties carve up enough of the votes to get a change in the voting system, eventually. However I fear the remain vote being split means a job lot of red faced shouty morons will be going to Brussels.
I just wish everyone right thinking would get behind the LDs just for the Euros, kick these bastard nutters into the long grass, then sure, hate on the LDs for helping stabilise the economy after the crash and blunt Tory extremes. Why not! 😉
pencilsqueezer says
Hate is such a strong word, it’s like the colour yellow. Neither the word nor the colour are on tune with me chakras daddio. Ya grok?
I can now hug trees with impunity which is much more me. 😉
Twang says
True, true. Just a turn of phrase. It’s just boring people dumping on the LDs for something which happened 9 years ago in a completely different context. All I’ll say is all the other scenarios would have been worse for the country and in practice the LDs took one for the team (and still are). Nick Clegg’s book is one long mea culpa of all the things he got wrong which is probably the final word on it for me. XX
chiz says
You get a similar kind of absolutism with “Centre-Left policies and the people who support them are all bad because Tony Blair went to war in Iraq.”
Twang says
Exactly.
fortuneight says
Spot on @Twang / @chiz
I hear this all the time about the LibDems but never any considered view on how the alternatives would have been better. Or as if the only thing Blair did was Iraq.
Lando Cakes says
Totally see where you’re coming from, as you know.
And there’s nothing you say that I disagree with.
However, I just can’t quite bring myself to leave Labour. I still see a glimmer of hope that the Corbyn nightmare will end.
Twang says
Once Jezza departs things might change. Until then, no chance.
Blue Boy says
Yes, they’re not getting my vote this time, but I’m hanging on in there – there’s nothing the extreme faction would like more than all the moderates to leave in despair so they can play their student politics. Next time there’s a vote for the leader, I want my say.
Lando Cakes says
Exactly – Keir Starmer, Yvette Cooper, Dan Jarvis, Jess Phillips – all would be a huge, election-winning improvement.
And without Corbyn acting as a huge bam magnet, the extremists would depart back to the fringes from whence they came.
fortuneight says
What about Tom? He strikes me as a good’un. Emily Thornberry too.
Gary says
Yeahbut, they didn’t they all vote to invoke Article 50? Seemingly without the faintest idea of its significance and the consequences? If they were so concerned about “respecting the referendum result” they should at least have known that cross-party Parliamentary consensus on a withdrawal agreement plan should have been reached first. It obvious to everyone now, but it was their job to know that before voting.
These people at least didn’t make that stupid mistake:
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/02/mps-who-voted-against-article-50
chiz says
They were ordered to invoke A50 by Corbyn. Three line whip.
Gary says
Yeah but 47 still refused to.
Tiggerlion says
Is this referring to Tom Watson? The man who relentlessly pursued Leon Brittan for paedophilia, pressurising the DPP to reopen a case, using parliamentary privilege to publicly name and shame him and then, even after he died, accused him of multiple child rapes? All this based on the evidence of one man now on trial for perjury. I don’t recall him apologising to Brittan’s widow. I struggle to describe Tom as a ‘good’un’.
fortuneight says
Sorry Tigs but I think he is, and as I’ve said I’m not a Labour voter or party member.
He was key to exposing phone hacking and Leveson taking place. Calling out Brooks and Murdoch took some balls as Watson would know they would do everyything they could to discredit him.
In respect of Brittan I think he acted in good faith and mostly got it right. Some of your issues with him are not, as I understand it correct in that
– he has apologised to Brittan’s wife and family twice – at the home affairs select committee in 2015 and then in writing
– He didn’t use parlimentary privilege to name Brittian. Then Labour MP Jim Hood did, but Watson referenced a paedophile network in the Commons in 2012 with connections to the PM. If my recollection is right, he didn’t use or need parlimentary privilege when he named Brittan because by the time Watson did this Brittan was dead.
– Watson’didn’t rely soley on Carl Beech’s discredited evidence, but also by a woman who came forward alleging she has been assulted by Brittan. Watson quite correctly asked the police to investigate and they set up Operation Fairbank.
– Watson wrote to the DPP to re-open Fairbank because he knew that the police hadn’t interviewed some of the people who claimed to have been assulted. The police had already decided to review Fairbank and the review concluded it had been wrong not to interview everyone making allegations.
You have to bear in mind Savile had died just a year before Watson’s 2012 statement, and there was no end of “I’d heard the rumours but ….”. I think he got it wrong in 2015, pushed too hard for too long, and was slow to apologise, but we can all call it better in hindsight.
So yeah, he’s a good’un.
Tiggerlion says
It appears that you are correct, it was Flood who used parliamentary privilege to name Brittan and he did apologise to his wife. However, Watson got almost everything wrong about the case.
In my view, Watson’s behaviour was reprehensible. Even the apology had to be dragged from him grudgingly, having refused to offer one for nearly a year. He continued to use his position of power to inflict harm on another well after he knew his sources were unreliable. He’s not a man I could trust with even greater power.
I know this is from The Telegraph but it summarises the sequence of events well.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tom-watson/11946373/tom-watson-case-against-leon-brittan.html
fortuneight says
OK I suppose we just see it differently.
The Telegraph article lost me at the “ample carapace” reference and ignoring that the fact that the police investigation found the failure to interview the suspects was a major flaw.
Tiggerlion says
Yes. The article has its weaknesses. I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle. Having interviewed the suspects under oath meant the falsely accused remained under a cloud, as far as they were aware, until after Brittan’s death. Failing to inform them that the investigation had ended was just cruel. Swings and roundabouts on the right things to do score.
I wonder how enthusiastic Watson would have been to cry ‘child rapist’ if it was a Labour peer in the frame.
Sitheref2409 says
You’re voting Lib Dem after the way they absolved David Steel in the Cyril Smith case?
OK> Tom Watson bad. David Steel good. Oh, and that other sex pest peer.
Glad to see it’s the political party that affects how you see these issues, and not the issues themselves. It’s almost like what you accused Tom Watson of.
Twang says
He was suspended in March. But what someone did 40 years ago related to something someone else might have done 50 years ago doesn’t change my desire to vote against the Brexit parties in 2019, no. Somewhere there has to be a statute of limitations on these things or no one would vote for anyone.
Sitheref2409 says
Lord Steel has very recently been absolved of any wrongdoing, when any decent person knows what he did (or didn’t do) was wrong.
So yeah, I think the LDs need called out on this.
Tiggerlion says
My opinion on politicians is pretty low. All parties have bad’uns. I see very few good’uns.
If Labour were clearly for a public vote, I may well vote for them, despite having Tom Watson in their ranks.
Twang says
Maybe @sitheref2409. But it’s old and every party has inconvenient history. I don’t know enough about the facts to make a decision to disenfranchise myself. We wouldn’t vote for anyone on that basis.
Tiggerlion says
I understand your logic, pencil.
This election, for me, is a single issue. My vote is going to the remain party most likely to contain Farage’s number of seats.
Bargepole says
A very good podcast, always worth a listen – and surprisingly humorous at times……
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-48310912/brexitcast-reacts-to-danish-politician-advertising-on-pornhub
Freddy Steady says
An item on the BBC news, kind of a poll of polls, has lovely Nige’s Party well ahead. Lib Dems on the up, hopefully enough to scupper our Tommy around here.
Mike_H says
A tactical voting guide for the UK European Parliament election, for Remainers.
https://www.remainvoter.com/?fbclid=IwAR06RwiDwQmspGbyNoHdy_k4qAkTAbQxGk1lN-jdVxXUFr4D7ZXBGeGjanU
Freddy Steady says
Constructive ambiguity. Oh, purlease…