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The Afterword #81: The Jonicast

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Twang gathers in the pod with Feedback File and Nick Duvet to discuss Joni Mitchell.  We wander through her early folkie days, her (arguable) peak in the 70s, the great jazz scare and Feedback makes a case for the later albums where her unerring way with a tune and a chord progression fights with the unpleasant production values of the time and wins.  We agree that her influence is enormous and toy with the idea that she is increasingly becoming a cult figure.


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  1. I’m prepared to give Joni another chance, so I’ll listen to this and see what conclusions you arrive at. Sooner or later, maybe I’ll get it.

  2. Should get time to listen tomorrow but Joni is right up there for me and HOSL is a Top 10 All Time album.

    Even without the great melody, this is perfect:

    Young love was kissing under bridges
    Kissing in cars
    Kissing in cafes.
    And we were walking down Main Street
    Kisses like bright flags, hung on holidays
    In France they kiss on Main Street
    Amour, Mama, not cheap display

    No more need be said (although I’m sure you do)

  5. One of Joni’s more interesting lyrics.
    Mostly her songs are pretty personal, but not this one.

    He was sitting in the lounge of the Empire Hotel
    He was drinking for diversion
    He was thinking for himself
    A little money riding on the Maple Leafs
    Along comes a lady in lacy sleeves

    She says let me sit down
    You know, drinkin’ alone’s a shame (It’s a shame it’s a crying shame)
    Look at those jokers
    Glued to that damn hockey game
    Hey honey-you’ve got lots of cash
    Bring us round a bottle
    And we’ll have some laughs
    Gin’s what I’m drinking
    I was raised on robbery

    I’m a pretty good cook
    Sitting on my groceries
    Come up to my kitchen
    I’ll show you my best recipe
    I try and I try but I can’t save a cent
    I’m up after midnight, cooking
    Trying to make my rent
    I’m rough but I’m pleasin’
    I was raised on robbery

    We had a little money once
    They were pushing through a four lane highway
    Government gave us three thousand dollars
    You should have seen it fly away
    First he bought a ’57 Biscayne
    He put it in the ditch
    He drunk up all the rest
    That son of a bitch
    His blood’s bad whiskey
    I was raised on robbery

    You know you ain’t bad looking
    I like the way you hold your drinks
    Come home with me, honey
    I ain’t asking for no full length mink
    Hey, where you going
    Don’t go yet
    Your glass ain’t empty and we just met
    You’re mean when your loaded
    I was raised on robbery

  6. I can keep my cool at poker
    But I’m a fool when love’s at stake
    Because I can’t conceal emotion
    What I’m feeling’s always written on my face
    There’s a gypsy down on Bleecker Street
    I went in to see her as a kind of joke
    And she lit a candle for my love luck
    And eighteen bucks went up in smoke

  7. Here are some links to my blog pieces on Joni:

    Joni Mitchell in the 70s – Court and Spark
    http://bangnzdrum.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/joni-mitchell-in-70s-court-and-spark.html

    Joni Mitchell in the 70s – The Hissing of Summer Lawns
    http://bangnzdrum.blogspot.co.nz/2012/06/joni-in-70s-2-hissing-of-summer-lawns.html

    Hejira
    http://bangnzdrum.blogspot.com/2017/05/classic-joni-mitchell-albums-hejira.html?m=1

    Don Juan’s Reckless Daughter
    http://bangnzdrum.blogspot.co.nz/2012/08/joni-mitchell-in-1970s-4-don-juans.html

    • Your blog pages with the reviews are really interesting. The comment from the reviewer at the time about HOSL is just utterly unbelievable

      “Watts spoils an otherwise excellent review of Hejira by suggesting that “On Summer Lawns only Shades Of Scarlet Conquering could be said to be tuneful and accessible and even that was a difficult song”

      The man must have been tone deaf. Joni’s phrasing is unique to her in the same way that Sinatra’s is to him – no matter how well you know a song you’ll still get the phrasing wrong sometimes if you sing along (not something you’d want to hear in my case) but to suggest that there are no melodies on HOSL is gobsmacking.

      One thing I do struggle with is “Both Sides Now” – her voice is in great form and the band sound great but I just can’t raise any enthusiasm for the slow pace of everything, including her own songs on it.

  9. There is also this fabulous unplugged vs of Man From Mars. This song originally appeared on the Grace of My Heart soundtrack but was covered there by a different artist. Apparently its about her cat that went missing !

  10. Great work everybody, really enjoyed that and learnt some new things too. Thanks too for alerting me to the Laura Nyro tribute records which I didn’t know about. It turns out there are two of them – Map to the Treasure, which was the one referred to in pod, with Shawn Colvin, as well as others such as Becca Stevens and also Time and Love which I will check out as well because some artists I really love are on it, like The Roches and Beth Nielsen Chapman.

    I also discovered Ladies Of The Canyon first, then Hissing of Summer Lawns which was my favourite for many years. Funnily enough it took me a long time to come to hear Blue or For The Roses. But then it was an especial pleasure when I did find them It’s strange that the Both Sides Now later album is such a triumph, whereas Travelogue, recorded not long after in the same-ish style, just isn’t.
    I can’t remember if you mentioned the live album Miles of Aisles which I’ve been listening to lately and is superb, featuring the young and not yet embittered Joni displaying a delightfully skittish sense of humour with the audience.

    My favourite version of Woodstock, by the way, was by David Crosby and new band on his latest album.

    • Caroline I agree about Travelogue – other than the odd track it misses the mark yet is very much in the same musical area as Both Sides Now. For me its a similar comparison to Don Juan’s Reckless Daughter vs Hejira which was mentioned in the chat.

      The Map To The Treasure tribute to Laura Nyro is real beauty though isn’t it ? She’s very much overlooked I think compared to her contemporaries.

    • Yes, Map To The Treasure, that’s the one. If Billy Childs could do the same for Joni as he did for Laura, that would be something.

      Glad you enjoyed the blog Ainsley.

  11. Excellent. As a mere “tourist” who only owns a pathetic 4 or 5 Joni albums it was extremely informative.

    This box set seems good value:

    Regarding Nash not really getting over her. He recently left his wife of 30 years for someone much younger who allegedly looks quite like Joni. When I saw him do a solo show in Ottawa about a year ago, he came on stage, looked around and first thing he said was “This is where I met Joni” (after a Hollies show in the city in 1967).

    Also am not sure about the exact circumstances where she gave up her daughter (abandoned is an extremely harsh word), but in Canada at the time there was incredible pressure within families when unmarried pregnancies occurred to hide it and give up the baby for adoption. Especially prevalent amongst catholics, it happened to my ex wife’s mother.

  12. Thanks, Chaps!
    That made my car journey a lot more interesting.
    The Hissing of Summer Lawns is my favourite. I also reckon that’s when her voice was at it’s finest.
    I’ve not listened to much Laura Nyro, so I’m going to have to rectify that.

  13. Really great podcast guys, thank you. It is really interesting that most of us haven’t followed Mitchell in the way we may have done with Dylan, Morrison, Simon, Young et al. I’m the same – loved Court and Spark, Hissing and Hejira when they came out, then hardly listened to anything after that, and only went back to the earlier albums much later. And yet it seems self evident to me that at her very best she is right up there. Part of the ambivalence may be because compared to those peers she has been relatively light on output. But it is hard to avoid the conclusion that good old fashioned sexism has much to do with it. Even in the 70s when she was producing work of such innovation she was damned with faint praise and seen though a prism that placed her as merely a confessional bedsit hippy chick singer songwriter. Compare that with how Neil Young – a much more conventionally ‘confessional’ and vulnerable singer songwriter – was viewed.

    I still don’t know most of her output well enough, but every time I listen to any of her 60s and 70s material I am more and more convinced of her brilliance, and your conversation has prompted me to explore further.

  14. Various mentions of Laura Nyro so thought I’d digress from Joni chat to suggest some albums to try. Now Laura can be a really difficult listen if you are not in the mood especially on her classic period – New York Tendaberry , Christmas and Eli where her voice goes from whisper to screech and all places in between. Good way in would be some of her later stuff where she mellowed out and I’d recommend Walk the Dog and Light the Light. You do have to go back to those three though as they are astonishing pieces of work. Gonna Take a Miracle is also quite easy on the ear where she covers a load of classic soul songs and her first album has ‘the pop hits’ . Big influence on Streisand whose early album Stoney End has a handful of Nyro songs.

    • Yes, Laura can be a little challenging, so if you’ve never heard much of her stuff, try these – two of her more straightforward songs.

      Save The Country –

      Stoned Soul Picnic

      The early albums like Eli and NY Tendaberry are a lot more varied in terms of mood and tempo; unusually so, to the extent that her sessions musicians often had trouble interpreting her charts. But that’s what makes her unique. As Feedback said, she mellowed out a bit later. Another shout out for Gonna Take A Miracle, which is essentially a collection of classics sung with Patti Labelle, Nona Hendryx and Sara Dash.

  15. I think Laura was pretty heavily into cocaine (amongst other drugs) at that period which may account for the wildly varying loudness and tempos, especially on New York Tendaberry, but there are some amazing tracks on those albums.
    My favourite from Eli is Poverty Train, and Christmas in My Soul and Upstairs by A Chinese Lamp from Christmas and the Beads of Sweat.



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