Old Word blog stalwarts like myself will remember my CLASSIC thread “Yes vs Pink Floyd” which ran for years and gathered OVER A HUNDRED COMMENTS of WITTY and INTERESTING points!!
In the spirit of that magnificent thread, I would like to ask a simple question: who is better, Tangerine Dream or Kraftwerk?
My own answer in the comments.
I mean, Tangerine Dream, obviously?
Based on each band’s high creative tide (mid-70s to early 80s). It’s “accepted wisdom” that Kraftwerk are the fathers of modern dance music and electronic music and all that, but I’ve been listening to early Tangerine Dream all day and I think it all came from them.
Up until Trans-Europe Express, I preferred
their early stuffNeu. I am aware I am a music nerd/snob.Neu as Pulp (in the German Kosmische Music equivalent of the Blur vs Oasis punchup)?
Bang to rights. Pulp were my fave Britpoppers.
The Tornados.
OK, let’s see:
1. Albums I like by Tangerine Dream:
Zeit
Phaedra
Rubycon
Stratosfear
Ricochet
Encore
Force Majeure
Tangram
Underwater Sunlight
Poland
Quichotte/Pergamon
Logos
Livemiles
The Official Bootleg Series Vol. 1
The Official Bootleg Series Vol. 3
2. Albums I like by Kraftwerk (German versions, of course)
Die Mensch-Maschine
Trans-Europa Express
Computerwelt
Crikey – it’s a thrashing!
Edgar Froese and the Tangs have CRUSHED Ralf and Florian and their mates 15-3.
Incredible! Hervorragend!
I’d have been very surprised if Kraftwerk managed to get 15!
And Die Mensch-Maschine is great, but it loses to the English version for me for that weird “korrekt” on Das Model.
There’s a story behind that. It’s not very interesting.
Surely the German TEE wins out for the terrifying urgency of “Schaufensterpuppen!!”
TD are one of those bands I always meant to get around to. What’s considered to be their golden period and is there much from the last couple of decades which is up to snuff?
@sewer-robot
Start with the studio album ‘Phaedra’ and the live album that followed it, ‘Ricochet’.
If you enjoy them, work backwards into less sonically sophisticated experimentation or forward into more commercial territory.
I saw them do Phaedra live in quadrophonic glory, and it was extremely impressive.
I would agree with Phaedra as a good starting point.
If you are feeling very flush, there is a Steven Wilson remastered boxset from a few years ago – “In Search Of Hades” – which is excellent. It’s probably out of print now and going for silly money though.
If you want a simple compilation, Dream Sequence is hard to beat. A more expansive compilation would be the two “Virgin Years” sets (74-78 and 77-83).
Add the “pink years” box (compilation of the pre-Virgin years, originally on the Ohr label) to the two Virgin sets and you’re sorted.
Yes, start with Phaedra and Ricochet.
And I’d add a third album: Edgar Froese’s sophomore solo effort “Epsilon in Malaysian Pale” (1975).
Beautiful record.
Seconded. Good call!
Thank you, all..
Phaedra and Rubicon – the more recent stuff is pants.
More recent than Rubycon? That covers a lot of ground…including Ricochet…
On the whole I prefer Tuesday to a piece of cheese.
The big question is, what sort of tuesday, what kind of cheese?
Mardi Gras and Dairylea.
Mmmmm…Dairylea…
In the spirit of the original Yes/Floyd thread, I think it is time for someone to post ‘I never really thought of Tangerine Dream as prog.’
Ah, yes – but that argument usually starts because a sector of the readership will never accept PF as prog, while another sector can’t imagine them NOT being prog.
This thread is about German Kosmische Music – at the time of release, it may have been considered to be properly progressive, underground music – but not “Prog”, with all its negative connotations…
Release oneself from these ‘negative connotations’ and true kosmische clarity can be achieved.
I never really thought of Tangerine Dream as prog as I’ve
barely ever thought of them at all
Tangerine Dream sounds like it should be in the Crunchy Frog chocolate assortment box, which would make Kraftwerk Spring Surprise, I suppose.
Kraftwerk.
Tangerine Dream, just like every band, had every opportunity to grab my attention in the 70s and 80s when I was a young, willing and easily-led pop music consumer. Kraftwerk managed it and the TDs didn’t.
(dons cloth cap) I have no inherited money or been lucky enough to be sent free records. Every time I bought a record it was as a considered purchase. If they haven’t grabbed my attention by now, they probably never will.
Lazy? uninformed ? Probably. Without checking YouTube, my impression of TD is long noodly instrumentals. Alan Parsons Project without the songs.
A harder choice would be Kraftwerk vs Yellow Magic Orchestra.
Can happily live without either. And have done so.
Can are an amazing band.
It’s not at all surprising if they can live without almost any other musical ensemble.
I’ve often thought that early Floyd (post-Syd, pre-Meddle) were about as Krautrock as British music ever got.
On the TD v Kraftwerk question I find great joy in both. I feel like TD were the original synth bliss band, they had this core synth spiritual vision thing going, which adds an invaluable essence to their music.
Pools Panel verdict: Away Win
Let’s try it again with the Duckworth Lewis method.
TD had a great run of albums on Virgin from the mid- ’70s to the early ’80s. “Poland” was a mostly-good post-Virgin live effort.
Other musicians of that ilk that I like are Klaus Schulze and Manuel Göttsching/Ash Ra Tempel/Ashra. Göttsching’s “E2-E4” is an important precursor of electronic dance music.
Schulze was a very early TD member. Also a founder member of Ash Ra Tempel.
I never really took to Kraftwerk. Too angular and lacking warmth. I have a couple of their albums and some singles but I never play them.
E2-E4 is magnificent.
Have spent this morning listening to E2-E4 and it is indeed magnificent!
Kraftwerk
I like ‘em both. However, in terms of the OP: two or three decades ago, I’d have answered Kraftwerk. These days, Tangerine Dream all the way…the music is the same so the landing pad within my head must have changed…
Have Tangerine Dream got a painted stone on the fence outside my house? No, didn’t think so.
Game over.
(Thinks: business idea…)
Quick, before your target market carks it @fitterstoke
I’m from Hull and reading that post really hurt my face.
Luckily, there are some 5-year old kids coming up (see posts below) – whole new market!🤔
This is just a coincidence – sal just lives in a rather informal German power station.
I thought it was at Dusseldorf Hauptbahnof for the pilgrims to kiss.
This is all I have to add to this thread…
Ha, that’s hilarious!
I’m with the kid. I was very, very deep into Kraftwerk when I was 8. First liebe never dies.
I can cofirm, my 6 year-old and his cousin have become obsessed with The Robots recently, although they’ve yet to explore the rest of the back catalogue. More surprisingly, my 40 year-old brother-in-law hadn’t heard of Kraftwerk before this!
I once saw a kid about seven years old wearing a Kraftwerk T-shirt. It was the blue Autobahn album cover design. It was a child sized shirt. Who decided they should make Kraftwerk shirts in kid sizes?
Take that Tangerine Dream!
I’m pretty sure you’ve never visited the Tangerine Dream Store in Berlin.
Tell us more…
Maybe this is a clue. I’ve become a little obsessed by this CBeebies show “Nick Cope’s Popcast”. It’s a series of little songs for children presented by Nick Cope who was in the Candyskins in the 90s (nope never heard of them before this). The songs are all brilliant and Nick is a warm, engaging presenter. This is Ralph The Rusty Robot. Be prepared to be earwormed should you press play. As someone here once said. I can’t believe it’s not Hutter…
The Dream are coming to Nalen in Stockholm in a few weeks time.
https://www.nalen.com/konsert/2022/tangerine-dream/
A fine band and I am a little tempted…
BUT
When it comes to a combination of idiosyncratic music, highly memorable fashion identity and the ability to put on a stunning show, the Bots win every time.
Rather like chalk and cheese I would say. Kraftwerk abandoned the kind of progressive approach for something radically new whereas TD didn’t and ploughed that narrow furrow for all it’s worth, heading into more naff, pretty territory you might call muzak, which was rather bad. Rubicon is all I’ve needed of theirs. Groove plus experimentation in harmony. Kraftwerk have a fresh modernism and are really more pop.
I prefer TD.
Kraftwerk’s stuff is just too detached. I am sure this is an important part of the aesthetic but their detachment is my disengagement.
Fair enough but I mean why wouldn’t you? There’s no reason why liking one would mean you would like the other. They are so different. What they have in common is superficial.
Equally, there’s no reason why liking one means that you can’t like the other…
You could argue that Kraftwerk invented their own narrow furrow, which turned out to be a dead end – hence a small, gem-like collection which Ralph has been curating since TDF-S in 2003.
I like him as Ralph…. Puts me in mind of Harry Cross’s long-suffering mate in Brookside.
Watching Kraftverk live at Roskilde with 60,000 people all wearing 3D glasses was a remarkable and very surreal experience.
They’ve put a lot of time and effort into this with remarkable results.
I saw them on that tour in Singapore. Ralf didn’t say a word to the audience until the end, when he thanked them in English, Mandarin, Malay and Tamil, which I thought was a nice touch, and showed him to be one of the few Western musicians to play Singapore who actually knew what the place was.
It’s Dusseldorf for me. Kraftwerk are the more classical and self-composed, although they did run out of new ideas in the 80s. TG are more romantic, expansive and, ahem, “cosmic”, which also has its attractions but I struggle to make sense of their vast back catalogue (and prefer Popol Vuh for that kind of thing).
“I struggle to make sense of their vast back catalogue”
Easy:
1. Buy The Virgin Years 74 – 78
2. Then buy the Pink Years (pre-Virgin) box
3. If you’re still keen, then buy The Virgin Years 77 – 83
4. After that, proceed with caution…many releases but not all of the same quality.
Tangerine Dream’s “Official Bootleg Series Volume One” was released in 2015, and is definitely worth having. Half of it is the Reims Cathedral show from 13 December 1974, which is a real TD gem.
Yes, definitely – in fact, all the Bootleg Series clam boxes have been very good.
Did you get that fab Herzog Soundtracks box a while back? It’s mental!
TD have quite a long, complicated history with several line-up changes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangerine_Dream
In 1980, I read, they were one of the first Western bands to play in East Germany.
Here’s a film showing what they looked like in 1980
So which band would the Venerable Peel have voted for?
He certainly introduced me and many others to the Dream in the early 70s.
There’s a letter from him in this excellent overview of their career. Great photos!
https://artsandculture.google.com/story/tangerine-dream-the-power-of-cosmic-sounds-deutsches-museum/GAURs7xURJWELw?hl=en
Not just a musician!
Who knew that Edgar Froese acted in this movie!
Hippy Peel would have supported TD, post 76 Peel would have gone with Kraftwerk.
Nah, post ‘76 Peel would have dropped Kraftwerk by then – they’d already had a single in the charts and the TW tv appearance…
You mean he would have dropped them at the precise point at which they ceased irritating his regular listeners….
I thought TW was Tiswas!! How wrong I was!
Tomorrow’s World certainly gave more cred than being on Crackerjack or Blue Peter.
What about the Dream? OGWT? Tiswas? Rainbow?
A shame they weren’t in the studio, then there might be a pic of Florian chilling in the green room with Raymond “Motorik” Baxter.
Well, let’s see how they score when it comes to the things that REALLY matter:
How about beards?
|||| Tangerine Dream: 5 points
|||| Kraftwerk: 0
(previous winner: The Allman Brothers Band)
Did they include a comic book with an album?
|||| Tangerine Dream: 0
|||| Kraftwerk: 5 points
(previous winner: Jethro Tull)
Steven Wilson factor?
|||| Tangerine Dream: 5 points
|||| Kraftwerk: 0
(previous winner: King Crimson)
Are there psychedelic/hippie memories they’d rather forget?
|||| Tangerine Dream: 4 points (The »Lady Greengrass« single!)
|||| Kraftwerk: 5 points (The »Tone Float« album!)
(previous winner: Blondie)
The Bowie connection?
|||| Tangerine Dream: 5 points (Dave lived with Edgar’s family for a while, and Bowie & Iggy could use TD’s rehearsal space (the former UFA movie studios) in 1977/78)
|||| Kraftwerk: 2 points (met him once)
(previous winner: Brian Eno)
What about ex-members?
|||| Tangerine Dream: 5 points (Klaus Schulze! Peter Baumann!)
|||| Kraftwerk: 2 points (Michael Rother was a member for a few hours, and Florian had a hobby band with Klaus Schulze… see above)
(previous winner: The Velvet Underground)
Hopefully they didn’t write songs about animals!
|||| Tangerine Dream: no (5 points)
|||| Kraftwerk: no (5 points)
(previous loser: The Beatles)
Re:
“Hopefully they didn’t write songs about animals!
|||| Tangerine Dream: no (5 points)”
Erm … how about “Tyger” (1987)?
»Tyger« – well, that’s 5 points deducted then.
William Blake just gets everywhere.
Indeed.
of Pan Tang Pan Tang
“What about ex-members”
Well an extra 5 points for TD for also having Johannes Schmoelling, whose album “The Zoo Of Tranquility” is one of the best instrumental albums ever (that’s a fact pop-pickers – I say so)…..
Thanks for the recommendation on the Johannes Schmoelling album, Chrisf.
I took a punt and picked up a second hand copy via the Discogs site.
“The Zoo of Tranquility” is need a winner. Cheers!
//duco
All very interesting replies. I’ll need to count up all the votes to confirm properly, but I think Tangerine Dream edge it?
Next, it’s Jean-Michel Jarre vs Vangelis… (STOP RIGHT THERE – Ed.)
While we’re on the subject of German electronic music, I see that Klaus Schulze, who was briefly a member of Tangerine Dream, died yesterday.
https://www.facebook.com/ecki.stieg/posts/10222551633552973
No! I didn’t see that. Well that has made me a bit sad. The vast Dark Side of the Moog series he did with Pete Namlook has been one of my favourite releases of the last decade and I was only listening to volume 7 (as good a place as any to hop onboard) last night. Might have to give Irrlicht or Timewind a spin tonight.
I missed that – and very sorry to hear it.
This is just tremendous – miles better than the version on Moondawn.
Tangerine Dream for their wonderful cinematic drramscapes. And the music in Grand Theft Auto V. Hippie to hip in 45 easy years.
It appears I saw the Phaedra tour of TD at Bradford St George’s Hall November 74 (part of it was released on cd in 2005).
I don’t remember the music as I was chemically enhanced but there was a light show though when any camera flash went off the light show disappeared and all that could be seen was a large white screen, I wonder if the people taking photographs were disappointed when they received their photos back.
In 74 I’d seen an all synth band called Zorch at Windsor Free Festival who I still listen to.
Here they are, Hubert!
And there’s lots of excellent info on their Facebook page!
https://www.facebook.com/ZZorch/
Fantastic piece by the late Brer Froese.
https://thequietus.com/articles/24571-force-majeure-extract-tangerine-dream-edgar-froese