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Swearing Allegiance to the King is OK

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I would be roasted alive on other internet places for this opinion. But I think this place has a more mature, considered take on things generally- so here goes.

The Coronation is very much a religious service. The millions that follow the Christian faith through the Church of England believe that the monarch is anointed by God to be Defender of the Faith and that as a member of that church, you are expected to swear allegiance to the monarch – as you would towards God, because that church believes the monarch is a divine appointment.

During the service, the congregation and the people viewing at home will be asked to say those words because it is what they believe. Those of us who aren’t CofE won’t have to.

In the Catholic mass there’s stuff you have to say out loud about believing that there’s only true, Catholic apostolic church and the Pope is yer man. Catholics will repeat those words but nobody else has to.

Storm in a teacup.

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Comments

  1. There’s a storm? When I became a Canadian citizen I had to swear allegiance to the Queen (or the Crown), wasn’t necessarily happy about that, but I went through with it. I would imagine at some point this will be removed from citizenship ceremonies

  4. The number reporting themselves as CofE in the last census was barely 12% (from 48% of the total who reported themselves to be Christian), and it’s a fair bet many of them only did so out of habit. I’ve never been a Christian nor a monarchist, but I see the appeal of ritual and the sort of service which involves holy oils and a lump of sacred rock than anything more dour. I may well watch the coronation because the music it likely to be superb, but any idea of chanting a magic spell of allegiance myself can get in the sea.

    This feels like a rare mis-step for Charles. He was more than a bit tetchy in his first days in the job, and to be fair it had been a hell of a week for him, but had settled in remarkably quickly. That seamless transition (the Queen is dead, long live the king) showed the strength of the institution and I have no hope of the UK becoming a republic any time soon, though that is where my sympathies naturally lie.

    Not that many people seem too excited either way, and I’ve honestly seen more anticipation of the Eurovision Song Contest than the coronation, but the idea of the pledge of allegiance does seem to have irked a great many.

  5. Do they though? Believe that the monarch is anointed by God, I mean. Those who do believe it will presumably be regular C of E churchgoers, who in 2014 amounted to 1.4% of the UK population. Of course the overall numbers are bumped up by baptisms, weddings and funerals, but I’d be prepared to bet that not many people who get married in church believe that Chas is anointed by God.

    I think Chas R is either being very badly advised or is ignoring good advice. This was the perfect moment to dial back the royal nonsense – have a small, private, humble coronation, vow to do whatever he felt he needed to vow to do, and then just get on with it. Instead we have all the absurd folderol, stone of Scone, chips off the old cross, oil, the continuing Harkle soap opera; all amplified by the usual Fleet St suspects no doubt, but he could have squashed if he’d tried. It’s always possible, I suppose, that the whole thing has been cooked up by the Worst Government in Living Memory (tee-em), bread and circuses cooked up for the disgruntled citizenry.

    Anyway, bah and indeed humbug. I shall watch a couple of minutes of it just so I can say I’ve watched two coronations in my lifetime. I’ll certainly be in the daughter’s back garden in Leyton, which as luck would have it is right under the flight path of the Coronation flypast, and be the wise grandpa identifying all the planes for the grandkids.

    • Broadly my view too. The Times Online comments were switched off pretty bloody quickly this morning as virtually every comment was from various shades of negative. It’s not the Middle Ages. Pledge allegiance my arse.

    • It is The Church of England, not God, who anoints the Monarch at the Coronation.
      Basically they are anointing him or her to the post of head of their church, rather like Popes are inaugurated as head of the Catholic church.
      In fact the UK coronation ceremony is quite closely based on that of the old Holy Roman Emperors in bygone days.
      It’s designed to confer political legitimacy to the head of state by the symbolism of conferring religious authority, when in fact the Monarch has no more actual authority in the Church of England than they have in the governance of the United Kingdom.

      As a far-from-loyal “subject”, I shall watch the ceremony on TV, as when Chuckie’s late mum, Her Maj, was crowned, though it was in fact within my lifetime, I was only 1 year old and knew nothing of it at the time.
      It’s a major historical event with no little significance so I’ll arm myself with drinks and snacks and watch it on a screen as a spectacle.
      I still can’t bring myself to take very seriously the notion of Queen Camilla, who sounds, as the name rolls off the tongue, like a character from an animated Disney movie. It’s lacking in dignity.
      No chanting of allegiance pledges in my gaff, this or any time around. I’d happily go Full Republican if it weren’t for the fact that, if the monarchy was abolished we’d probably end up with some odious former Tory politician or retired banker instead.

  6. The dogs will be taking me for the longest walk of the year next week.

    People are queuing for food parcels to be taken back to their cold unheated homes while this sham will be taking place. It disgusts me just thinking about it.

    And this talk about god WTF! There is no feckin’ god!

  8. Each to their own, but imho, whoever came up with this serf’s charter is massively tin-eared.. Who’s doing PR for the Windsor circus ? Baden-Powell.
    ( See also the dirge that is the National anthem..)

  9. When I first saw a headline about this, it was wrapped up in a plea from the AB of Canterbury so I assumed it was only aimed at religious people. I was astounded to realise that someone thinks that we should all do it!!! Exactly how out of touch are these people? The last time I looked, it was 2023 and most people have enough resources at their fingertips to realise that there is no need to kowtow to royalty anymore. The worst part is that people outside the country, looking in, will be led to believe that we’re all doing it.
    I’d be quite tempted to watch part of the proceedings next weekend if there was an alternate commentary that told us exactly what’s what, maybe with overlaid graphics pointing out how much we’re paying for things along the way. If the king wants to have a ceremony (and we know that it’s not required for him to be king) then he can pay for it himself. If he doesn’t want to pay then it shouldn’t go ahead. I know there will be tourist pounds generated but I’m not entirely convince that we, the taxpayers, will be getting much value for money.

  11. Quaker, not C of E-ist, so not really affected by BC’s ADmonition to the faithful to swear allegiance. In fact, it’s a double not affected as Quakers refuse oaths, and won the right to affirm (in court, etc), because we kind of believe in the responsibility to always tell the truth (it’s one of our testimonies, don’tcha know).

    More interesting to me is that the monarchy is experiencing a death by a thousand cuts, as more and more people realize its hollowness, its irrelevance and its ugly squatting on a hierarchy of inequality which prioritizes who you know, whose family you being to, what school you went to and how much money your parents* made to send you to all the right institutions to make you ‘one of us’.

    They have enough power to maintain the tawdry charade as constitutional/spiritual (ha!) leaders of an imperial globe trasher continuing its decline to an off-shore irrelevance, (just with an arms industry). So they won’t disappear from one day to the next. It’ll be more the equivalent of just turning your back as the procession goes past. Enjoy your time in the sun, Charles Windsor, maybe even William Windsor when you’ve reached retirement age and inherited the untaxed wealth and the metal hat. Remind me why anyone should pay attention to any of you?

    That’s my immature, ill-considered view, anyway.
    ——-
    *Not how much money you made, you filthy oik, you jumped-up pantry boy, eurggh, I can’t breathe the same rancid air as you…

    • He could also have paid the Inheritance Tax He Owed “the crown” when his mother died, but the Family had clauses in place to avoid that painful necessity that applies to everyone else, didn’t they?

      Twelve billion pounds or so, wasn’t it?

      Meet the new boss. He may profess to love the planet and so on, but he doesn’t really give a fuck about us.

      • I’ve probably ranted enough, but this loving the planet thing – it feels to me like that inevitably emerges from being a massive landowner. Surrounded by loads of empty acres that you ‘own’, thoughts must inevitably turn to landscape management. Acres that have been in your family for generations (and you want to stay in your family for generations) encourage you to think long term.

        Landscape management and long term thinking are good things, in and of themselves. But the externalities are terrible. We don’t have enough earth for everyone to be the Windsors, and by taking so much just for themselves, the rest have to manage with what is left – shitty waste and need.

        Externalities, being the dodgy economic concept that it/they is/are, have a tendency to bite you in the bum with pollution and carbon emissions, desertification and species loss that don’t respect the boundaries of the Sandringham or Balmoral estates. Duchy Original biscuits go hand-in-hand with bargain basement palm oil-filled, rainforest plantation requiring hobnobs.

        Plan a Poundbury one day, shake hands with an oil sheik buying British arms the next. Don’t look over there, look over here. And enjoy the bread and the circus.

  13. Mrs F was born and (partially) raised in the village next to Balmoral and, as such, is a lot more tolerant of The Firm than I am. She’s probably quite a good barometer of the mood of the General Public.

    Her verdict on this one: “Well, he can f*ck right off!”

  14. I’ve got Rugby on Friday and Saturday, so the bulk of it I can sidestep. Not sure about Sunday and Monday.

    I was asked to volunteer for some local thing on Monday to do with it and gave the most withering glance I have given anyone in my life. That is soooo not going to happen, anyway I’ve sworn my allegiance to The Beatles.

  15. The last time I said an oath was over 50 years ago.

    On my honour, I promise that I will do my best to do my duty to God and the Queen, to help other people and to keep the Scout Law.

    I see no reason to repeat it.

  16. I utterly diskard such things. If you want to, feel free, but dont force it on anyone, but never forget the difference between kneeling down and bending over.

    Glad I am not at a point in my life where religion and patriotism are compelled, as at least one has the choice when older whether to play along, or not.

  17. The Archbishop of Canterbury is speaking to his flock, not the British people. Im not CofE, so his message doesn’t apply to me. If the Sun, Express and Mail are conflating this towards being a national duty that all British should do, that’s them doing what they do. Causing mischief and division.

  19. He’s a fan of the old Go On Show – perhaps the pro-monarchists should say “Ying Tong Yiddle I Po” and the anti-royalists can say “I don’t wish to know that”….

  20. During my lifetime Britain has had one Head of State who I think did an excellent job and one who is still “on probation”. Italy has had nine Heads of State, all of whom I think did an excellent job. It seems to me a monarchy can mean greater stability and continuity (albeit at a considerably higher financial cost), but by far the biggest, most notable difference for me has been the “celebrity” nature of the wider Royal Family and the tabloid “scandals” they have generated – something that has never tainted any of the nine Italian Heads of State.

  21. I’m about as Republican as they come, and I couldn’t imagine ever swearing aloud my “allegiance” to anyone or anything.

    That said, I’m not sure I understand the fuss here. I’d assume the public are being invited, rather than required, to pledge their fealty, which is still a bit weird if you’re not a believer, but nonetheless clearly of a piece with the whole event. It’s a coronation, after all. I would pretty much assume this sort of thing would be involved.

    My objection is to the institution, not this particular detail. If someone wants to salute the telly then why not, it’s no dafter than all the rest of it.

    Just so long as those of us who don’t wish to join in don’t have to suffer the entire country once again being closed down out of “respect” then those participating in the coronation may as well have a good time and get in the swing of it.

    • The king elicits as much respect from me as any other (non criminal) member of the human race. What he choses to do should be his own business and not impinge on my life at all. I’m happy for things to be closed because all the staff wasn’t to watch something on the television but that option should also be given for other (say sporting) occasions.

  22. I’m not a royalist at all but we’re a free society so people can gather round the tv and enjoy this historic event. Or they can walk to the pub like I will.
    None of this is compulsory.

    I find it more comical than anything. The stone of destiny is now on its way to the coronation site. I’m just waiting for the holy hand grenade and the rabbit next

    • I think a lot of people in other countries viewing it from the outside find the whole thing quite ridiculous and comical too. I also think they assume most Brits take it seriously.

      Mind you, I haven’t finished asking everyone yet.

  23. I rather enjoyed John Higgs’ take on it earlier. All words below are his:

    When the invites to Charles’ coronation were revealed, there was a minor kerfuffle about the amount of magical, supernatural or pagan imagery involved – especially the figure commonly known as the Green Man. The fuss reminded me of that scene in Casablanca, when Captain Renault closed down Rick’s bar. “I am shocked, shocked, to find that gambling has been going on in here!”, he explained, just before being handed his winnings. Monarchy and coronations are as magical and occult as things get, and to pretend otherwise is always going to be funny.

    I’ve talked about this before, but there is nothing rational about monarchy. The concept of a head of state – where one individual is said to personify a nation – is magical thinking. The British establishment is founded on magical thinking to such a degree that the crown had to be chauffeured to parliament when the queen was ill. Our modern 21st century government couldn’t function without the presence of a magic hat.

    The monarchy knows that is not a success despite its magical nature – it is a success because of it. It’s interesting that, for Charles’ coronation, they are making no attempts to hide their occult nature. If anything, they seem to be doubling down on it. Hence you have all the publicity surrounding the gathering of the magical artefacts needed for the ceremony, from bringing the Stone of Scone down from Scotland to fragments of the ‘true’ cross from the Vatican. Then you have a cast list with this sort of craziness – note how unapologetic and blatant it all is:

    [pictures of various Lords with their role, including Lord Houghton of Richmond carrying the Sword of Temporal Justice, and Lord Richards of Herstmonceux carrying the Sword of Spiritual Justice]

    The failure of the republican movement in Britain has a lot to do with their failure to grasp this. To defeat something, you need to understand the source of its power. To try and defeat monarchy with rational thought is a category error. Republicans suggest rational alternatives for choosing a head of state, but these fail to attract support because they lack magic. They don’t ask why we bother having a head of state in the first place. That’s a shame, because it is very hard to argue convincingly that we need one.

    Now, I’m all for a bit of irrational bugnuts ritual. On Saturday, for example, I was out in the fields of Sussex watching a newly installed standing stone be encoded with music. If you put your ear to it, you could somehow hear the new single from the Local Psychos – aka Jimmy Cauty and Jem Finer. This is a deranged manic novelty folk stomper called The Hurdy Gurdy song. There was a procession, banners, smoke grenades and drone cameras – these days, a walk in the country demands production values.

    Things like this are par for the course at the moment. When people tell me about the projects they are working on, it’s now weirder if they don’t involve ritual, folk horror, magic, ancient landscapes or at the very least weird animal masks (those that don’t, curiously, tend to be AI-based). Hence we now see things like Wet Leg performing with morris dancers at the BRITs, the success of Stone Club, and the work of folk-exploring artists like Ben Edge. Even the Guardian has noticed that something is going on. Because magic always undergoes a resurgence during times of hardship, economic decline and political failure, all this has been baked into the Brexit project from day one.

    But not all magic is good. At the heart of hereditary monarchy is a very dangerous magical idea – that certain bloodlines are in some way ‘superior’ to others. If you isolate this idea and examine it in the bright light of day, it’s abundantly clear that it’s complete bollocks. The dark magic of monarchy, however, is adept at distracting you while it installs this belief into your reality tunnel. Once there, it will corrupt a great deal of your thinking. It is a very troubling and dark error. It’s no exaggeration to say that most of the darkest hours in history have this idea at their heart.

    One striking thing about the current revival in magic or magic-adjacent shenanigans is that it is more about looking forward rather than looking back. For all its interest in folk traditions, it is not trying to faithfully recreate or preserve the past. Instead, it is trying to create new rituals for the future. Interest in folk horror or hauntology used to be linked to 1970s nostalgia, for example, but that is not the case with a film like Ben Wheatley’s pandemic-era In The Earth. While The Wicker Man has a 1970s view of nature, In The Earth has a modern understanding of ecology – and the vast interconnected plant intelligence in underground mycelic networks. Justin Robertson’s fantastically disturbing novel The Tangle is similar – they both explore the horror of how alien the mind of nature is. I suspect if Charles had read Justin’s book, he would have thought twice about using Green Man imagery.

    All this might seem a little paradoxical – that people are looking backwards in order to go forward. But a great deal of culture in this country is entangled in issues of status, class and opportunity, and a great deal of energy gets drained away trying to deal with that particular tar-pit. The current magical revival sees all that as doomed, and not something to engage with. It has wandered off to start afresh, leaving all that behind. From this perspective, the establishment offers nothing of value and the idea that some bloodlines are superior to others is ridiculous. People who believe it are best avoided. In the circumstances, all you can do is build something better, and try not to make the same mistakes.

    A good example of all this is The Pillars of Wonder, a collaboration between Richard Norris, Jamie Reid and Matthew Shaw, involving ritual, music and art. Countless others are involved, including myself, Gwenno and David Keenan – who has written lyrics to a song called The People’s Magic. Given the strength and darkness of the establishment magic that will be on show next week, the idea of the People’s Magic seems particularly important right now. Keep an eye out for all this over the next year or so.

    It will be hard to avoid the coronation. TV screens will be full of pomp and ceremony, and a cathedral full of people who don’t get the joke. You might get swept up in its magical power, for it offers tradition, spectacle and identity and these are powerful spells indeed. They can distract from the suspicion that there is something dark and wrong at the heart of it all. But the reason why the monarchy are making such a show of strength is because they are vulnerable. Once you turn your back, it’s amazing how quickly the illusion bursts.

    • Glad I no longer have the longest posts on this thread. I don’t get many of the references in that, but Cauty and Finer stood out as being two of my favourite musical/cultural innovators of their generation. The song’s a bit gimmicky, but I bet it sounds greatly chaotic being blasted out of a good soundsystem in some scenic party of rural England.

  26. Working as I do in community transport there is much excitement among out services users who are almost exclusively over 75. All the community groups and clubs we provide transport for are having a do of some description. My mum would have loved it all had she still been around to see it. As with so much of this stuff that is inistrcably linked to the war will calm down with that generations passing. All that Rule Britannia bullshit that while essential during an unimaginable period of our history has no real reference point for many of us. The Queen was lovely and had been around forever in my life. I probably would have almost hypnotically sworn allegiance to her because, you know, she was The Queen. Charles strikes me as cold and very much not lovely so he can do one I’m afraid. I won’t be watching but I will be shuttling around very excited octogenarians. I won’t be swearing allegiance but I really don’t care if some choose to especially if it gives them sone sort of comfort. People are strange, the world is strange this whole thing is just another example.

  27. I’m not sure I agree.

    This isn’t just the religious anointing of the Head of the Church.

    This replaces the oath of the allegiance that the Peers used to make to the Crown, acknowledging not just the primacy over the CoE but the Head of State nature of the Crown.

    We don’t have a Constitution, to which Sharon swore an oath when she started, nor a Republic. We don’t want anyone swearing an oath to the Government du jour, so we’re left with…a monarch.

    It’s 2023. Could Britain not just grow up?

  28. The one thing missing from these responses, bar Dave’s mention of his passengers whom I’m sure we all hope have a lovely day, is any indication that a single one of us feels an inclination to pledge loyalty to Charles/the monarchy. This is the crux – the populist media is touting the coronation as a cause for national jubilation but that doesn’t seem to reflect the popular mood at all, to the extent that a mis-worded part of the service was enough to incite near universal spleen.

  29. The wording of the Coronation pledge is almost word for word the same as the oath of allegiance sworn by anyone joining the military – ie taking the King’s shilling. As seen in this Ken Loach film about WW1 conscientious objectors (at 38.20). China? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u019DvYjY4&t=4191s

    It also reminds me of that scene in Oh What A Lovely War where the music hall turn (Maggie Smith) singing patriotic tunes ‘invites’ the brave young lads in the audience to come up on stage to take the pledge of allegiance, after which they are immediately transported to the Somme!

    Does this mean those who take the pledge may be called up to fight in the next war against China?

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