The Yes v Pink Floyd thread started by my good friend Baskerville has prompted me to start the versus debate that ends all versus debates. The Who v Led Zeppelin.
Now, the natural reaction of most classic rock fans would be “Oh come on, its Zeppelin, for goodness sake, what are you on?”. The sheer power of that band and its constituent elements, the riffs, the anthems, their legend and mysticism, Page’s masterly arrangements, Plant’s blues howl, the front man template that launched a thousand imitators. JP Jones, the musician’s musician. Bonham, nuff said!.
I’m not so sure. I set out my case for The Who.
Pete Townshend was, and remains, much more of a visionary than Page. Right from The Who’s early days he steered the band from mod popsters, through the rock opera masterpiece that was Tommy, via the peerless Who’s Next (which was must surely be the only No 1 album that emerged out of a failed rock opera concept – Lifehouse), and onto Quadrophenia which is far ahead of anything Page and Plant could have dreamed up in front of a roaring fire in Bron y Aur.
As a live act The Who in their prime were the world’s best. There was such a lot going on when the Who were on stage. It felt as if it could fall apart any second but didn’t. Townshend dominated his end of the stage with all sorts of pyrotechnics, Keith Moon wreaked havoc at the back and Daltrey twirled his mike. It was all very eye catching and spontaneous. Entwhistle also had a stage presence. Big guy, big bass, an anchor to the band. Of course, Zep were no slouches live either. But the stage act was all Plant and Bonham. Page was quite sloppy a lot of the time and JP Jones, despite his awesome musical talents, had no stage presence worthy of the name. You got crunching blues power with Zep but The Who gave you chaos, musical hall, piss and vinegar and rock’n’roll all in one package.
Lets look at the tunes. The Who’s back catalogue is filled with catchy melodies, riffs and memorable lyrics. The songs spoke for a generation, they told stories, there were characters involved. Plant and Page crafted some of the greatest heavy blues and folksy rock ever recorded. But, honestly, nothing Zep ever wrote was in the same class as Baba O’Riley, We Don’t get Fooled Again and the Tommy/Quad anthems. Ok then, maybe Kashmir on Physical Graffitti is on a par but certainly nothing from the first four albums. And don’t get me started on Stairway’s lyrics. Even Plant thinks they’re complete tosh and he should know.
Well, I’ve said my piece. Go for it. I’m just dead wrong. Led Zeppelin were a better band. Because, well, they just were, right?
I’m with you, Rockmeister. LZ are a triumph of mythology over substance. A bit like Robert Johnson, there’s something indestructible about the image/history/whatever which trumps the musical content – or at least perpetuates it in an emperors-new-clothes sort of way.
I’m amazed at the coverage Page seems to get (BBC news plugs etc) every time one of these latest £100+ reissues comes out. Let’s sit back and look dispassionately at what’s happening here: these are THIRD time around CDs of albums that everybody buying them already own several times, which have previously been remastered (so they should have got it right then), which are pumped up with the meagre-est of ‘bonus audio’ content, almost all of which seem to be inessential early runs-through of songs. ‘Keys To The Highway’ on LZ3 might be the only worthwhile addition to the lot so far.
If they were going to pump out the catalogue again they should have gone the whole hog like these Universal box sets on Sandy, John Martyn and most recently Spooky Tooth (for God’s sake!) – £150 boxes but terrific VFM for the punters who’ve bought everything several times over already.
But leaving aside those issues, LZ = pomp, posture and artifice / The Who = r’n’r make-collapse-any-moment excitement, as The Rocker said.
No contest.
Anyway… look at this: newly discovered ‘lost’ film of The Who on ‘Into ’71’ (BBC, 30 December 1970). A great song from a fertile period – a B-side:
What irks me with these constant reissues is that you never get a part exchange option. Return your previously definitive version of LZII and get (say) 25% off the new definitive version of LZII.
That would seem equitable to me.
The Who. Better by miles. Man for man better. Album by album better. And they have a host of killer 45s.
The Who.
That was easy
Duran v Spandau??
There’s a Spooky Tooth box set? Lead me to it!
I think we might be talking apples and oranges here…LZ at their best were a thunderous (and thunderously exciting) bunch of blues revivalists/ripoff artists (the choice is yours), who gradually sank into a mire of celtic mysticism and other weirdness. I think it’s important to consider them at their peak rather than deduct points for ill-considered box sets etc.
The Who were a bunch of art-school smartiboots who didn’t seem to be riffing off anything in particular when they first appeared (apart from a penchant for Mose Allison), sounded like nobosy else ever had, and were blessed with a supremely talented songwriter with a knack for creating 3-minute playlets set to irresistibly catchy music. Even something as apparently teen-angsty as Can’t Explain seems to tell a story in a way that Communication Breakdown never did. I’m sure their music will last.
Having said which, for their first two albums and their fantastically exciting live shows I’m not prepared to chuck LZ out of the balloon.
At least PT and JP have plenty to talk about.
As has been said above, apples vs oranges really – both excellent in their own way, depending what you fancy at the time!
Any excuse:
http://youtu.be/e_lA9hD5io8
Who
Though I think Plant is a more adaptable singer. Moon over Bonham every day of the week
I can’t decide to her honest.
Who’s Next and Led Zeppelin 3 are the best albums of each career. However Live at Leeds might be best Live album ever and Kashmir the best individual slice of Zep ever. What would possibly settle it for me is the post band careers. Plant stands out as someone still pushing the boundaries and producing new music I want to hear. Then again Jimmy Page is a bit of a knob and agree with Colin H the latest reissues were a bit of a pointless money grabbing exercise. Then again Daltrey with Wilko was pretty good too but Townsend throws a spanner in the works by announcing an Orchestral Quadraphenia which I fear will be a pile of shite.
Gonna go with a draw.
I can’t deal with Quadrophenia at all, I’m afraid. A pile of stodge. Can’t understand why PT keeps going on about it as his masterpiece…
I can’t really be bothered to organise any coherent arguments. I just know it’s Led Zeppelin.
The Who were a singles band. Their early albums were just collections of songs and filler material, some of it not very good at all. Their rock operas were embarrassingly over-ambitious, albeit containing a few top rock tunes. PT should have recognised his own limitations – he’s not the musical genius he seems to think he is. Good guitarist, though. The nearest his band got to a masterpiece was “Who’s Next”. I think Moony was the only one who could come close to his LZ equivalent in a head-to-head.
As for LZ – “III”, “IV” and “Phyiscal Graffiti” are all stone cold classics.
The Who
Yes they were nothing more than a (top notch) singles band in the 60s. The debut album is a studio version of their live show and sadly lacks the power the live show undoutedly had. And A Quick One (despite the ambition of the title track) is a bit of a clunker (compared to the rest of the catalogue).
But from 1967s Sell Out to 1976s By Numbers you have a catalogue which competes with anyone (even 1978s Who Are You has its moments, although admittedly it does sound laboured in places).
Moonies death seemed to spell the end for the band, and they probaly should’ve stopped then. No disrespect to Kenney Jones, they never got “it” back (maybe Kenney was “too capable” as a drummer?).
But the sheer visceral thrill of the opening chords of “I Can’t Explain” still signal that you are in for a proper good live show.
The Greatest Rock & Roll Band In The World – almost definitely.
I think JPJ is underrated. His keyboard playing and arranging added a great deal to LZ, lifting them from one dimensional blues rockers occasionally. His bass playing was simple, deliberately. While Entwistle’s playing was perfect for The Who, it’s not as lyrical/musical as JPJ’s – as exciting as it is on things like The Real Me etc, in the cold light of day it’s limited within a certain approach. It always seems to be modal – for all the notes, Entwistle wasn’t a jazz player, had little adaptability beyond fast runs in a mode throughout simple-structure songs. Yes, it made those songs sound exciting and feel like they had a rush of energy, but he was a bit of a one-trick pony. Good trick, though. And when at its best – around Who’s Next, Live At Leeds etc – it helped make The Who the greatest R&R band in the world.
JPJ in LZ had to, conversely, keep it simple because of the nature of LZ’s music and the other players. JP was very scrappy and trebly as a lead player and most of their onstage time was JP soloing, hence someone had to ground the thing in p[erfect time and with a pulsing musical centre. If Entwistle had been in LZ there would have been no centre to the music. In The Who, Pete *was* the rhythm section/the centre – those power chords nailing everything to a pulse were in fact what the others (John and Keith) were careering around.
Here’s an example: Amazing Journey live 1970 –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqhoy98HldA
It’s interesting (to me, anyway) how many of LZ’s contempories really did not like them. Townsend most certainly didn’t, keef really didn’t like them much either, and neither did David Coverdale. How can this be? Did they know something we didn’t?
I own 6 Led Zeppelin albums and three Who records (One a greatest hits package). Does that make one better than the other? Maybe not but the Who albums seem much more patchy than the Zeppelin. More diverse possibly but maybe less focussed. If that makes sense.
An interesting question Rocker, and one that requires some thought.
The Who were around long before Led Zeppelin and were already well established by the time ‘Led Zeppelin I’ blew its way into our lives in 1969. That was the year the Who released ‘Tommy’. ‘Led Zeppelin II’ was released the same year. This was the year that Zeppelin arrived. They were massive from the start, but they would not release singles. They were a live act who released albums. That’s an important difference – the Who reached more people because when they started it was a singles culture.
The Who were a singles band and had been pulling them into the Marquee in large numbers since 1964. They were different from other live acts even in those early days, mainly because of an accident when playing a gig at the Railway Hotel in Wealdstone in June 1964, when Townshend accidentally broke the head of his guitar on the low ceiling onstage. He decided to smash it to bits on the floor in sheer frustration (and because the audience had started to laugh). The following week, encouraged by the audience, Moon decided to kick over his drum kit at the end of the gig. The punters loved it and started to flock in droves to see a band who, like them, were completely pissed off at just about everything. The rest is history.
But there was good music as well as showmanship. This period coincided with a string of hit singles for the Who that stand up to this day. The first was ‘I Can’t Explain’ (with a riff pinched from The Kinks); interestingly Jimmy Page played fuzz guitar on the B-side of that single: ‘Bald-Headed Woman’. Both tracks were recorded in November 1964. ‘Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere’ followed (using techniques like pick-sliding and feedback). We then had ‘My Generation’ in October 1965. Then ‘Substitute’, ‘A Legal Matter’, ‘The Kids Are Alright’, ‘I’m A Boy’, and it goes on. The Who spoke for their generation and their music resonated with the teens of the day, particularly the working class. They were a singles band who made their reputation live on stage. They got into the public consciousness. They got into trouble. They hoped they died before they got old. The Press loved it.
Album success really only came in 1969 with ‘Tommy’. Then came ‘Live At Leeds’ in 1970 and that was an ear-opener for a lot of rock fans. They were heavier live! They extended their singles like ‘My Generation’ into 15 minute epics that were exciting, innovative and awesome. They played the blues. They were edgy. They sounded scarier live, as compared to their pop sound on their singles. ‘Tommy’ had been a nice album and not too loud, but live it was a completely different experience. These guys fuckin’ rocked!!!!
‘Led Zeppelin III’ was released in 1970 to a mixed reception. It was too acoustic for some critics, after the rolling thunder of the first two albums. They lost a bit of ground, but not much.
‘Who’s Next’ was released in 1971 and sealed the Who’s greatness internationally – a classic album borne out of a failed musical project. And in case anyone had forgotten, the Who released ‘Meaty, Beaty, Big and Bouncy’ that same year so their legions of newer fans could hear how they got there.
Led Zeppelin released their 4th album in 1971, a game changer in every way. Yes it was a bit acoustic, but it also rocked. The critics still complained, but the record-buying public again ignored them. It was a great year to be a rock fan.
Then in 1973, ‘Quadrophenia’ raised the Who’s standing even higher. This was a project that worked. The playing is magnificent, the singing is astoundingly good, Moon has never drummed better on any Who album. To me, this is their finest moment in the studio. It has stood the test of time. And it was rock, not pop.
In 1973, Led Zeppelin released their 5th album ‘Houses of the Holy’ to a mixed reception. WTF – a reggae track? Spooky keyboards? Not everyone was impressed, particularly the critics.
‘The Who By Numbers’ was released in 1975 to a mixed reception. It was OK, but not a classic. But the Who were now at their peak as a live act, including extraordinary performances at Charlton Athletic Football Ground in 1974 and 1975 (where they used lasers and got themselves into the Guinness Book of Records as the world’s loudest band. Zeppelin released ‘Physical Graffiti’ that same year. This was more like it, but it was to be their last great album. ‘Presence’ came along in 1976 to mixed reviews.
‘Who Are You’ came out in August 1978. Not a bad album. On the cover, Keith Moon sat astride a seat saying ‘not to be taken away’. But he was, in September 1978 when he died.
Zeppelin released ‘In Through The Out Door’ in 1979 but the fans and critics were just not loving it. In September 1980, John Bonham died.
The deaths of their respective drummers meant that both bands would never be the same again. Both bands were awesome live acts and fans never knew what to expect but were willing to go along with whatever happened on the night. Both played extended versions of their music and both knew how to put on a show. They shared that special magic where four separate musicians were alright, but when they all combined in a group they were something unique and exceptional and exciting. Their drummers drove that action and without them, it would never, ever be the same.
The Who were just extraordinary live. I mean electric. Kick-ass. Dynamic. Edgy. They argued onstage and had a lot of fun. They were competitive and wanted to show their bandmates who was best. And the fans loved it all.
Zeppelin rocked, but they did not have that hunger which drove the Who. Not a hunger for success, but a hunger to get out there and deliver the goods every night and show everyone you were it. Townshend owned the stage – he has booted people off it, including at Woodstock (yes – the Who played Woodstock, and the Isle of Wight Festival). Zeppelin had Plant, a great frontman with an enormous voice, but only a bit of swagger. Daltrey twirled his mike, stomped around, and had a great set of pipes too – both of them golden gods in their day. Bonham was a tremendous drummer and his rhythms were stunningly good. Moon had a completely different style, which took loads of hard work as he tried to fill in all the spaces left by ordinary drummers. John Paul Jones, a multi-instrumentalist with a minimal stage presence, was solid and well organised. Keyboards, mandolin, he gave Zeppelin a palette of musical textures to use. Entwistle stood there and let his bass do the talking. His style was complex, almost akin to the ‘lead bass’ style favoured by Chris Squire of Yes. Townshend and Page are both exceptional guitarists. Page probably has a more varied style, gained through study and session work. Townshend plays from the heart. Because he is driven. Because he has had more anguish in his life. Because he writes about that anguish and turns it into songs. I doubt Page or Plant had the problems Townshend had. Zeppelin wanted to get laid. The Who wanted to kick against the pricks.
So which band was best? I actually don’t care because I love them both. They have been a part of my growing up, a part of my life. But I think a good indicator is, if all their records were lying around my house and it caught fire, which one would I grab and save? I wouldn’t hesitate. I would grab ‘Live at Leeds’.
The ‘ooo: best little rock’n’roll band yer mates might have had down the boozer, with a few big numbers to really rattle the optics at closing time. Bravura performances from the little twerp in the fringed jacket, the windmiller with the ‘ooter and that lunatic on drums.
Zep: from Jupiter, via the delta, with knobs on.
I’m with the aliens.
I can’t say I’m fond of either band but definitely prefer The Who. However, this thread is marvellous. A perfect example of why I’ve missed The Afterword. Keep up the good work!
Interest points, all, Baskmeister, Fenderbender et al. It’s often said that The Who didn’t release many albums. During the period 1969-80 when LZ made X albums, The Who made X minus Y (someone else can do the maths) – but the curious thing is that while LZ had virtually nothing left over, as can be seen from these bizarre latest reissues where spot-the-difference mixes are all that can be dredged up, The Who recorded lots of stuff that was either never released or appeared only on singles.
There’s been a fun thread over at Steve Hoffman’s forum recently on the Who’s ‘lost’ 1970 album for a start:
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/the-whos-lost-1970-studio-album.415816/
I’d be of the opinion that there is indeed a killer album in the best of their odds and ends from this period.
But you’re probably all wondering, ‘Is there a John McLaughlin connection here?’
Well, John’s band Lifetime supported The Who on several nights in Boston in 1969 and the previous year John had recorded ‘I Can See For Miles’ with The Gordon Beck Quartet (on their LP ‘Experiment With Pops’). The MO almost supported LZ at the 1974 Knebworth festival (LZ had verbally agreed but pulled out). John did, though, play ‘Stairway’ at Montreux with Carlos Santana in 2011 (see clip below at 2:45 in).
John also gave Jim guitar lessons circa 1964 and sold Pete the latter’s first amplifier around the same time.
How about a cross between the 2, Uriah Heep, the worst of both worlds. Big nosed guitarist, tick, buckskin jackets, tick, good bassist, now dead, tick, concept albums-ish, or side 1 of Salisbury, tick, bare chests, tick, dble headed guitar, tick, shrieking vocals, tick, good keyboard player, tick. Can’t remember owt about Heeps drummer, but all this musing makes me think the Who were good and Zep better, but I don’t like the entirety of any single of their LPs. Good tracks, but give me a gift card for i-tunes every time, £50 should do it, 50 songs between ’em, 25 each.
The Who. I got into them at school, queued to see them at The Rainbow and they have always been the band of my heart. I don’t listen much to them these days, but they came up on random play a while back and it was still as exciting as ever. Who’s Next is an absolute masterpiece as is Live at Leeds. Rather perversely I prefer the later early 70’s version over the 60s mod stuff these days given that it was the 60s stuff and the mod image that did it for me. Tommy though is rubbish. I never got into Led Zep in my younger days because Who were my band and LZ were scruffy rivals. It was only till much later that I came to appreciate them but my heart doesn’t skip a beat in the same way when I listen to them now.
Fair points, Dodge. One always changes in one’s appreciation of artists’ music, I think – all sorts of factors involved. Sometimes simple nostalgia will keep the flame alight – the memory of really loving something rather than that something continuing to have the effect it once did.
On a different point… the Steve Hoffman forum is awash with mind-bogglingly labyrinthine threads on differing versions/mixes/edits/remasterings of Who songs across singles, CDs, foreign releases etc etc etc. Their catalogue seems to be chaotic.
One fairly recent surprise has been a raft of HD itunes (re)mixes of things – none of which have been flagged up as ‘new’ mixes. Apparently, the new (2014) HD itunes mix of ‘Live At Leeds’ trumps all the previous versions.
One wishes they (The Who) could just sort it all out, catalogue-wise, once and for all. Wonder if there’s anything box-like planned for this 50th anniversary?