I’ve never liked Spotify. From the low quality of the streams that seem to remove all sonic power from music; to the way they reduce the value of music to fractions of pennies; the way their ‘curated’ playlists are just the same ol’ shit all of the time; and now their latest way of screwing jobbing acts over – no royalties paid to you for tracks with less than 1000 streams.
There’s concern about Bandcamp being taken over, but at least I know money is reaching the acts I support. This latest bit of daylight robbery from Spotify is them pissing on musicians whilst telling them it’s raining.
Aren’t the streams for the paid version good quality?
Am not going to defend them too much but 1000 streams would seem to be not that many?
My main beef with them apart from the low payouts is no Atmos capabilities. I would cancel my subscription but my daughter (the main user) won’t allow it.
It depends whether you consider 320kb/s to be “good”!
Rather hysterical article. The 1k stream threshold will impact 0.5% of Spotty’s artist base according to Musicradar. Anything getting under 1k streams would be generating less than $5 a year in payment, which is below the threshold that most music distributors will pass on (almost all the music on Spotify or any other streaming platform is placed there by a 3rd party, not the artist).
There’s no obligation to have music on streaming sites. You can take it down if you own the rights.
Don’t use Spotify for the very gripes you mention.
Physical produce all the way for me except for the occasional instance where physical is not available.
not sure that “they’d only get paid less than a fiver a year anyway” is the most robust of defences
To generate the 1k plays a year, 50 fans streaming a song twice a month passes the payment threshold. Given Spotty’s userbase is claimed to stand at c.515m getting to 1k of streams doesn’t seem to set the bar very high. Back in August I caught a band called High Fade busking in Edinburgh who mentioned several times that their self released songs were on Spotify. Chatting to them once they finished I asked why put stuff up there if the returns were as poor as reported. Their view was whilst they were getting paid buttons, it was all about getting exposure, and generating more interest in the band. And every song of theirs is clearing the 1k threshold.
Should musicians get more per stream? Maybe. A band that can’t get 50 fans to stream a song more than once a month seems unlikely to have been making much money from physical sales either. In the rush to demonize streamers (I’m not having a pop at you here btw) what’s hardly ever mentioned is it’s the big music companies like Universal that decide what musicians earn from streams, not Spotify. I think there’s plenty of reason to be concerned about how much power. 3 companies – Universal, BMG and Sony already have over half the market, and in reality, they’ve got the streamers by the balls, and are doing very, very, very nicely.
Nicely put. There are plenty of streaming services offering high quality sound (even Amazon Prime).
If I’m allowed to use the term, I don’t know a single civilian these days who uses CDs or vinyl. Not one
Well Lodestone it just shows how out of touch with reality that you are.
I buy CD’s and vinyl on a weekly basis and so too thankfully do the people who come into the shop I work in.
And so too your nemesis @Baron-Harkonnen.
Don’t put your comments on your own reality as fact for the rest of the World.
I’m not wanting a Baron-style argument here but your reality is working in a record shop where people come in and buy records. Out there in civilian land, it’s a completely different story. I’m not debating the merits or otherwise of streaming (if I had the time and money I’d do all my listening through vinyl) just saying that for the vast (and it is vast) majority of people popular music is asking “Alexa, play the latest by….”
And down below pencilsqueezer puts it rather more eloquently than me
Hmm a civilian is probably someone who doesn’t buy records or cds so a bit circular.
Most “civilians” I know listen to music regularly, albeit on the radio or streaming
This topic comes around now and again and everytime it does @fortuneight has the measure of it. I still buy the occasional CD, I gave up buying vinyl years ago and I feel no pressing need to add more clutter to my already overstuffed bijou council penthouse flat so I stream. I’ve invested in decent hardware to achieve the best SQ I can afford and It serves my needs extremely well. I had a brief dalliance with Spotify a few years ago but I never took to it so I dumped it in favour of Amazon HD which also didn’t meet my needs so I signed up to Tidal. I’ve since added Qobuz and I’m currently checking Apple Music out on a free one month trial but I don’t think I’ll be subscribing when the trial runs out. Tidal and Qobuz provide me with everything I require.
Technology moves onwards and there is nothing any of us as individuals can do to halt it’s progress. You cannot put genies back inside of bottles so you can either embrace the changes or not but railing about it will change nothing except your blood pressure.
Artists get exploited, they get ripped off, it’s always been this way, it’s a state of affairs of which I have first hand experience. It comes with the territory and of course it’s infuriating but it’s the way of things and everyone who makes the choice to pursue a creative path through life should be aware of that from the get go.
One last thought. I have an old friend who loves vinyl, he buys lots of it mostly second-hand. He also rants about how much he despises streaming and how artists are being ripped off blah, blah, blah… when I point out to him that buying second-hand vinyl provides the musicians with absolutely zero return he goes quiet, mumbles yeah but that’s different and changes the subject. Ho-hum.
Hello Mr Pencilsueezer you make very valid points regarding streaming but I have to point out that when buying a second hand vinyl record the artist has already hopefully profited from the original sale.
Someone further up this thread stated that they don’t know anyone who plays CDs or vinyl records. Although that person didn’t say it but from his/her tone they presume that nobody plays CDs or vinyl records. I’m new around here but I’ve lurked for a long time and though I’m reluctant to say this that person seems to be an argumentative type. That is fair enough but he/she comes across as an authority on this forum is he/she the Afterword Forum equivalent of the Steve Hoffman Forum Gort?
I’d like to add that I buy CDs and vinyl records and all my friends, I have many, who are into music also buy physical product. Some of them also stream but none of them listen to music where streaming is the only source.
Hi Ray. Pleased to sort off, kinda meet you. I completely agree about the second-hand thing. I buy second-hand myself from time to time, a Michael Chapman CD being the last from a proper bricks and mortar emporium back in the summer when I was still vaguely mobile. I mentioned my old mucker as he believes he is directly supporting the artists by his purchase. He isn’t. It’s once removed at best. I think he’s being somewhat disingenuous and hypocritical in his stance over those of us who stream music due to his rather pompous attitude as regards to this. I still buy hard copies from time to time and over the course of my life I have sunk plenty of my money into the music business buying albums, CDs and a great many concert tickets. It’s only my personal circumstances that preclude my continuing to do that anymore. My love for music however remains undiminished and streaming allows me to continue that life long passion.
I paint and for me the joy is in the making. That doesn’t mean that over the years I have been blasé about my need to sell my work. Artists have bills and need to eat just like everyone else but I can honestly say that if someone derives some pleasure, some joy from simply spending a brief moment looking at my work without purchasing anything from me then that act of communion is enough to have made the time I’ve invested in the making of it worthwhile. It doesn’t pay the bills but it does feed my need to communicate in the only way I am even approaching competent.
Do I think musicians should be paid better? Of course I do but that is out of my hands. My forgoing the access streaming gives me wouldn’t make a shread of discernible difference to anyone but me. My forgoing it would also lead me to buy fewer physical products as streaming has led me to many artists who I would never had heard otherwise and hence would never buy their work. I consume media of all types by as many means that are open to me. I feel no need to apologise for that.
Edit: Your second paragraph made me laugh out loud. The clue is in the full name of Lodey. We are a disparate and unique bunch but very rarely deliberately disagreeable. Although I’ve had my moments I must admit. He’s our Lodey and we wuv him.
Sadly, we here in AW land are not representative of the general music-hearing* public.
Does the public still buy records & CDs? “Of course they do!” says the man who works in a record shop.
Do AfterWorders still buy records & CDs? “Of course we do!” say many who choose to spend their spare time writing about music on a popular culture forum.
Is every Spotify user also in the AW Massive? Probably not.
I think we are what’s known in the trade as “statistically insignificant”.
(*) notice I didn’t say “music-listening public”, because I’m a nerd/snob/dullard.
This discussion always runs in a circle on here: the public don’t buy physical records because the industry doesn’t try to sell them physical records because the public don’t buy physical records because the industry doesn’t try to sell them physical records.
Yes indeed. As one infrequent AWer pointed out on the socials recently, Sainsburys no longer have a record label or sell CDs.
We back in the day when I was a ” We” and not just an “I” lived next door to a couple who never listened to music. Not a note was ever heard emanating from their gaff. They never so much as owned a transistor radio. It was as silent as the grave. Now that’s true perversity if you ask me. Mind you shortly before “we” had to move a different couple moved in with a predilection for heavy metal. The gaff obviously attracted perverts of all stripes. 😉
And today’s tea on keyboard award goes to Mr Squeezer.
I live in a village with over 4,000 residents and I’m known as “the record man”. There’s quite possibly another round here but I’ve yet to meet them.
I was known for a while in one local pub as “that weird fuc*er what likes that druggy music”. Fair comment I thought except for the bit about the music that is.
Well, my neighbours probably assume that I don’t listen to music, because I only ever listen through headphones!
I don’t think they’d appreciate if I listened through my speakers, since I mostly do it between midnight and four in the morning…but even when I – very occasionally – listen during daytime, I still use my headphones because I’m so used to wearing them (for films/TV etc as well) that it doesn’t sound right to me just wafting through the air. 😀
Being a “creature of the night” comes with consequences!
Sorry Lo you’ll have to speak up I’m listening to The Petrified Forest by Biosphere through a pair of headphones at the moment.
Wonderful thing anecdata. Meanwhile according to the World Economic Forum physical media accounts for about 25% of music consumed in the US and UK.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/02/people-listen-music-physical-media-spotify/
Guilty – I too could have looked it up – but I’m genuinely surprised it is still that high.
Take out the Taylor Swift sales and that 25 % figure drops considerably. . She apparently sold well over 500,000 vinyl copies of 1989 ( Taylor’s version) in the US in the first week or so. Meanwhile, 60,000 were sold in thr UK in th4 first week of release, plus another 120,000 on CD.
Whereas poor old Adele pressed something like a million copies of her latest on vinyl, clogging up worldwide presses for months, and almost nobody bought it.
‘Statistically insignificant?’ I don’t think for example Sarah McQuaid or Katherine Williams would consider that to be the case – they have both benefitted from members of AW praising their work.
The beauty of the current industry is that it has reverted to a cottage industry for many artists and there is a real belief among us fans that this is the golden age when you can go and meet the artists and buy from them directly.
Martin Stephenson had just released a cd with a 300 run – I bought one because I love the man and his music. He won’t make diddly squat from Spotify but somehow doubt he gives a shit. He loves playing to his fan base and is so warm hearted.
I get that for some people streaming is their best access to music and I applaud them for still having that passion. I am fortunate that at present I can still afford to buy physical product and will continue until I can’t or have too much to house.
I do believe a significant number of streamers stream because music is not so important a part of their life.
The resurgence in vinyl has helped offset some of that loss of love for physical product and now it is important that people sing the praises of physical stuff. I see a significant number of youngsters buying new releases and old alike and it gladdens my heart that they are ignoring the miserable gits.
I meant that we (the AW Massive) are statistically insignificant compared to the huge number of people streaming music (Spotify has 551 Million users, the AW has, er, significantly fewer).
I’m certainly on a solo mission to keep physical sales alive, and I’m not the only one round here. But we are music nerds, not the Man in the Street.
PS I have a software engineer friend, ex mp3 player colleague, who works for Spotify. He likes it.
“Spotify has 551 Million users, the AW has, er, significantly fewer).
@Gary’s WordTHINGY thread has had well over 1,389 comments and rising. It’ll get there, mark my words.
At no point whatever @RayX did I say
“nobody plays CDs or records any more”.
I was merely making the point, as have others on this thread,that outside the World Of Music Nerdship, Average Joe & Joanna do almost all their listening via streaming. That suits an awful, awful lot of people. I sincerely hope there will always be record stores and people who buy records and it is great that some artists prefer to plough their own furrow, keep in close contact with their fans and make some sort of living selling physical product, t-shirts etc. But that really is not a statistically large amount of people, god bless them
Also, you’re not “an argumentative type” at all. You’re all warm and cuddly.
What do you mean by that? I only argue when I’m right and everyone else is Wrong. You got a problem with that? Eh, eh?
You missed putting a full stop at the end of the last sentence of your previous post. That’s a sure sign of an argumentative wrong un
“I don’t know a single civilian these days who uses CDs or vinyl. Not one”
I don’t know a single civilian buying physical product, that’s a fact. I come in regular contact with around twenty to thirty households. Even I don’t suggest that means nobody in the world buys records.. I give you my 50 year-old son who on his own keeps Honest Jon in business.
@pencilsqueezer – I often miss out full stops simply to annoy Gary
@Loadestone of Wrongness – happily it doesn’t bother me a whit
I assumed it was just an accidental lapse, like when you forget to put your trousers on before going to the supermarket.
To be honest, I didn’t “accidentally” forget to put my trousers on
As a counterpoint, I’ve often wondered regarding people who still buy physical product whether it’s because what they really enjoy is shopping rather than music itself. They can’t stop themselves from shopping even when it’s no longer necessary.
If shopping is no longer necessary then we may just need to kiss goodbye to the capitalist foundations we have all been brought up on. Shopping whether online or in stores is a drug we all can’t get enough of.
That’s exactly what a massive shopper would say.
Yep but don’t understand what point you are making.
Every retail centre/out of town shopping centre/ garden centre in the country is rammed every weekend. It is a National pastime.
I prefer life outdoors and we are often rambling but equally shopping is something we love to do (in moderation)
There are three main reasons why I still buy some physical product.
1. I’m a long time fan of an artists and I just want to be as near a completist as practical.
2. I want to be able to put tracks onto an a SD card for the car etc and an MP3 download isn’t available.
3. I don’t want access to some of my favourite tracks to be at the whim of facilities outside my control.
Ooh Bingo, “I’ve often wondered regarding people who still buy physical product whether it’s because what they really enjoy is shopping rather than music itself.” … I know you’re not intending to tar us all with the same brush, but I feel I must speak up for those of us who have good reasons for buying physical CDs and records.
I buy them because at their best, I firmly (and naively?) believe they can be works of art. It sounds like you are reducing it to a kind of functional thing, just a “carrier of music”, and from that perspective I can see why CDs and records might seem impractical and expensive. But a nicely produced album in a well designed sleeve and a carefully sequenced set of songs (with usually no easy instant access to a skip button) over a set 40 minutes or so is a beautiful thing. You can engage directly with it, connect with it visually by reading and handling the sleeve, etc etc. I hate the idea of music just being an amorphous thing you should access in as convenient a way as possible!
Antiquated, fetishistic, impractical… yeah if you want… but I always think saying “why buy albums when you can stream them?” sounds a bit like “why bother learning a musical instrument when other people can play them for you?”. In short, the ritual and the direct experience is worth it on its own terms.
(Where’s the nomination form for pretentious response of the week?)
I don’t believe a love of physical music carriers is entirely aligned to scratching an acquisition itch. I think it’s a little more complicated than that. I am old enough know all about the pleasure that spending time flicking through racks of album sleeves engenders. I used to spend most Saturdays in record shops during my teenage years doing precisely that and I do miss it but as explained elsewhere I am unable to indulge myself anymore. So the shopping for the desired artifact is not just the simple act of an exchange of money for goods. Buying music is not as prosaic an act as buying a loaf of sliced bread although both albums, CDs etc are no less mass made than a loaf of sliced bread. As objects they are freighted with a much more complicated need than a simple desire to quell the pangs of hunger. I would suggest that the lovers of physical media are intrinsically “collectors” and that is the real dividing line for me. I love music and feel passionately about it no less than an individual with a vast collection of physical objects I just don’t feel the need to collect. I love the work of Franz Kline, obviously I don’t own a piece of his work but I love his painting no less than those people who are fortunate and wealthy enough to do so. It’s possible I may love his work far more but it’s definitely not far less.
Hello Mr Pencilsqueezer I’m afraid I disagree with your comment “I would suggest that the lovers of physical media are intrinsically “collectors” That sounds like the kind of reasoning that the argumentative fellow/the forum Gort would make and from reading your posts over a long time I don’t think you are that type.
I buy lots of CDs and Records but do I consider myself a collector? The answer is no. I know many others the same as me who think the same way. We are music lovers plain and simple. I offload unwanted albums to the Charity Shoppes two to three times a year if I were a collector would I do that?
With regard to Franz Kline I have a love hate relationship with his work. But the work I love, I love.
✌️
Some surveys have suggested that up to 50% of vinyl sold never gets played and a fiar number of purchasers don’t own a record player. You might not be a collector, or retail therapy fan,, but if the research is correct then a fair number of people are.
Im just teasing, Arthur. The argument above about shopping makes about as much sense as saying that people stream because music is not so important a part of their life (or the pleasantly barmy musical instruments analogy, come to that).
These are literally just sales formats. They’re mechanisms businesses have dreamed up to sell you a product, and choices you make as a consumer. They’re not inherently meaningful or possessed of greater virtue than one another. You are not what you own.
Most of us here spent decades buying physical product, and then either stopped doing so or at least reduced our spend. That wasn’t because our relationship with music suddenly changed or was degraded. We simply found a way to receive the same product (music) in a format that we found more convenient, even if it meant foregoing the ability to – ahem – handle the sleeve.
Shopping is about getting hold of some attractive shiny new thing in many ways. Once you’ve had it on the shelf a while that allure and thrill of the new shiny thing fades but the music may well still knock your socks off. I no longer care about my old CDs but I can still love the music. With streaming it’s still there.
It is really easy to skip a track on a CD Arthur, unless you have lost your remote or are you getting mixed up with LPs? The LP is generally the desirable product but even then they tended to skimp on the printed material after the initial run, with a plain white inner sleeve and often a fairly unexciting front and back image and text. Sometimes the text was badly printed and hard to read. It was not always a romantic connection to a beautiful object by any means. Right now vinyl is over priced. CDs getting there. There’s no romance in a CD. The cover image is also there with streaming plus the lyrics plus there is often an animated image when you play a song. LP sleeves can be a little less impressive in the flesh in my experience.
You are clearly buying the wrong records.
Re. »Do AfterWorders still buy records & CDs? “Of course we do!” say many who choose to spend their spare time writing about music on a popular culture forum.«
This whole physical-media-is-dead story is a bit Urban Legend. Whether you agree or not – I recently was informed that German retailer JPC (who only sell books and physical music, no downloads etc.) announced a 20% rise in sales for the fifth year running. (They’re also bigger than Amazon in Germany since 2015 or so…)
And judging from their monthly catalog their target group is hardly the Afterword-friendly music nerd.
And long may JPC run, I buy from them regularly.
I also buy from them – in fact just received the Kirsty MaColl box which was very competitively priced and arrived on day of release.
I work for a UK music retailer whose name is also made up of initials, and physical music is growing very nicely. The ‘vinyl revival’ gets the headlines, but CD sales are well into double digit growth, and have been all year. They’ll never be at 1997 levels again, but the format is very far from dead.
I’m of the belief that 90% of people who stream have a chip on their shoulder and not just on this forum.
Almost everything posted on similar forums (OK I doubt there’s anywhere else on the net like the Afterword Forum) regarding the diminishing sales of physical music media is started by someone who streams their music. Why not live and let live?
I think it’s pretty clear that I regularly stream music and I couldn’t care less how others listen to music Ray and fail to grasp why my streaming is considered by some to be tantamount to a mortal sin at least that is the impression that is given by some folk. I am of the can’t understand what all the brouhaha about Taylor Swift is about persuasion and I feel exactly the same about that. Namely if it brings others pleasure, if it makes them happy then I am in fulsome support of it even though it’s simply not for me. If people wish to buy physical product then good on ’em I trust it brings them joy. I’ll continue streaming music as that is the best solution for my particular circumstances. It brings me joy. I can’t actually remember a single post on here about the evils of physical product because it would be a stupidly divisive thing to post. Streaming however… perhaps I am being a bit touchy about this but give it a rest. Do I have a chip on my shoulder? Maybe but only because I get a bit fed up with having to defend my choice from the saintly LP buying 1st class proper music fans.
Apart from that carry on.
You raise a good point, P. The enviromental impact of vinyl & CD production and shipping is not zero. But neither is the production (rare earth metals, etc) and power consumption of all the IT infrastructure required for streaming.
At the global scale, nobody comes out of this covered in glory.
I don’t know what the answer is, apart from going back to a cave and hitting things with sticks for entertainment. {insert “but haven’t you got a drum kit set up in your soundproof garage?” comment here}
As a very nice lady once told me, “try to be happy and don’t worry about the things you have no influence over”.
I am so very sick of you snooty hitting things with sticks in caves people lording it over the rest of us with your “organic acoustics” and your endless assertions that the very act of recording music corrupts the human soul. Will you all just get over yourselves and stay in your bloody caves where you belong. Live and let live, folks.
Obviously I agree Steve with what you say and with the “very nice lady”. I don’t tend to worry about much at all nowadays. Life events brought it home to me just over eight years ago that there are very few things worth bothering about and the detritus that washes up on the shoreline of one’s life is certainly not one of them. I don’t bother to get involved overly much with threads in this place as much that is posted I have no opinion about. I do about this though. There is a distinct tinge of sanctimonious disapproval at the heart of the threads that appear on this subject and that I freely admit boils my piss just a wee bit. In another post it is claimed that 90% of people who stream music are chippy. Maybe that’s a correct percentage but I tend to think it’s more than likely bollocks and just thrown out there for effect however even if that is correct perhaps the author of that nonsense should ask himself if just maybe that erroneously arrived at 90% have good reason to be and comments such as that contribute to people having good reason to feel a bit irked.
As you are probably aware my connection to this site is tenuous. It’s crap such as this that makes that so. It’s divisive and unnecessarily unpleasant. I try not to do unpleasant but just occasionally oh botheration doesn’t cut it.
Try not to let it boil your piss, P. To quote Vic Reeves: “88.2% of statistics are made up on the spot”.
I’m certain most of us are saying “If streaming suits you, fine: if buying physical product suits you, equally fine.”
My own take is that, a sweeping generalisation and certainly not true for everyone on here, physical buyers tend to get a tad evangelical about their preference and often accuse streamers of being less than holy.
Music is music is music and long may we discuss the merits of Booker T versus Black Sabbath without bothering whether or not how we actually play our “records” .
I’m pretty certain Tigger’s most-excellent reviews are all streams – who cares as long as the great man keeps on keeping on?
@rayx This thread wasn’t started by someone who streams. The very first sentence is “I’ve never liked Spotify”. Chips on shoulders? Hmmm. As Fluff Freeman would have said, “Not half”.
Kid, have vinyl sales correspondily levelled of or fallen? With the arrival of “every day is Record Store Day” vinyl pricing this year, I’ve found myself buying more CDs again. I’m not the only one I know, either.
I have bought just a handful of vinyl LPs over the past few years. All recordings that weren’t available in other formats at the time. I digitised them and play the files when I want to hear them.
My available funds don’t permit getting back into collecting slabs of vinyl and maintaining the equipment necessary to play them.
I don’t buy many CDs any more either. The odd one from the artist at a gig, if I’ve enjoyed it. Yet again, I digitise them and play the files mostly.
Otherwise I stream (currently Amazon Prime Music) or I download and play “unofficial” live recordings of artists I’m interested in.
I realise artists’ returns from streaming are paltry, to put it mildly, but the “Music Industry” has always been more about extracting revenue from music lovers than supporting artists. That’s modern commerce for you.
This recurring acrimony between the Streamers and the Buyers on here is extremely yawnsome IMO.
Hard to disagree, except “That’s modern commerce for you” has a superfluous “modern” – the music industry have always had their fair share of sharks.
Re.»Technology moves onwards and there is nothing any of us as individuals can do to halt it’s progress. You cannot put genies back inside of bottles so you can either embrace the changes or not but railing about it will change nothing except your blood pressure.«
In my opinion it’s not about halting progress (or technology). But you have a choice – use it or don’t.
As someone whose entire income comes from payments for artistic jobs or products, I choose to not use streaming. I buy lots of stuff (CDs, books, records, magazines) in actual stores. (And I’ve never used Amazon.) Fortunately in Germany there’s lots of people who think the same, and as a result there’s plenty of record stores and book shops in every town, and even in small villages.
»Artists get ripped off, and it’s always been this way…« Maybe, but it’s not an excuse for laziness. Make your choice, or don’t.
Enjoy your millions of songs on streaming, but don’t complain if there ain’t no record store in your street.
I follow your line @fatima-Xberg and thank God there are those of us that do despite comments from Lodestone to the contrary who believes just because I work part time in a record shop my point of view is somewhat skewed. I go into enough record shops to know that purchasing physical product is still extremely popular.
The problem is that the major retailers have a hidden agenda. When Kindles came out there was the inevitable forecast that this would be the end of printed matter. Well that turned out to be a load of bollocks. Two or three years after their arrival then book sales were at an all time high and continue to be the main way that books are sold.
However go onto Amazon and key in books. Choose a book and they will try first and foremost to sell the digital version.
It happens every time and really boils my piss. We are the customer and it is our choice -don’t try and force something down our throat to suit your own agenda.
I read paper & Ink books. I read ebooks. I listen to audiobooks. I play CDs. I stream music. I still buy the occasional blu-ray disc yet I stream TV and film. It is possible and allowable Steve to access the things we love by multiple avenues. All are viable and each have advantages and disadvantages. There isn’t some sort of higher moral value to be attached by choosing to access the media of our choice by one means or another. I’m grateful that I have the ability to embrace all of it and enjoy it. It brings me joy not angst.
Honestly, Steve – I wasn’t getting at you: of course there are lots of record shops and lots of people still buying physical product and I sincerely hope that never changes. But just look at the actual figures, streams .v. cds/vinyl. For instance, in the USA, over 90% of musical revenue comes from streaming.
Says everything you need to know about yanks. Brits with their brains knocked out.
And no wasn’t offended.
Says the man using the Internet to do so.
I would put myself in the category of being able to stream but largely choose not to for bew music. I have much of my Amazon purchases on their streaming site which I listen to in my car now that car manufacturers have taken cd players away from us. I had to stream the M’dou Moctar live album because I couldn’t buy it anywhere for less than £65 and I am not that mad!!
No moral high ground at all and would hate for that to be considered the case.
I do have friends who will stream whole batches of stuff that they will never listen to. Suppose it doesn’t matter if they don’t pay for the stuff.
Am listening to desert island discs on a regular basis so not discounting all streaming.
I’ve just bought my first car in ages without a CD player but I can still plug in a USB stick which is what I’ve done for at least 10 years anyway.
New cars without cd players, bloody barstards. Our new one hasn’t even got a socket to plug one in remotely. “But you can stream it all”, said the jolly salesman. No you can’t, says I.
I’m the one in the wife’s old Focus, 10 years old, listening to cds (and cd-rs of burnt downloads), by the way. She can drive the new one, which hasn’t even got bloody gears either. Call itself a car.
Assuming you have a TV licence, you’ve already paid for Desert Island Discs.
As I wrote on another thread recently I have (at least) 6 record shops within a 20 minute drive of my house. Some also selling other physical media like DVDs etc. So people are still buying this stuff
My daughter does 95% of her listening on Spotify (or YouTube), but if she really really likes an album she will buy it or place on her Christmas/birthday list. On vinyl of course!
Interesting discussion above, with some thoughtful views well expressed.
Personally, I don’t think it’s particularly equitable that small acts will effectively be asked to take payment in exposure alone (which is clearly the implication here).
That said, this is nowhere near the threshold that would cause me to even consider ceasing to use Spotify. It’s regrettable that the shift from physical to digital has economic winners and losers, but also inevitable. I’ve worked in sectors that have been disrupted by that process; it’s not been pretty to watch, but it’s also not possible to hold back the tides.
Consumers are voting with their feet; their desire for physical product has been decreasing rapidly for years now and they’re very happy to adopt digital/streaming solutions. Ultimately, you either find a way to pivot to that demand or you end up crushed by it. The music industry, taken as a whole, has seemingly done a fairly good job of riding out that change.
I don’t think I’ve bought a CD in over a decade now, and I really can’t ever imagine going back to it. A consumer habit I’d had since early teenhood was washed away almost overnight when I first subscribed to Spotify, because the experience was (for me) instantly superior. At first I missed the joy of standing in a record shop weighing up a new purchase, but now even those pangs have long since subsided. It wouldn’t bother me personally if all the record shops vanished (book shops are another story though).
As for all the sound quality stuff – I know this is a deal-breaker for some on here, but I couldn’t care less about it. I don’t think my heathen ears have ever even noticed it tbh.
@fatima Xberg Like most things it’s only partly about choice. I say partly because choice is governed by factors that are often beyond one’s control. I live in a small flat that is already cluttered up by a lot of books and CDs. I buy physical product too but I simply lack the space to add too much more to an already crowded environment. Where I live there are no record shops. There hasn’t been a record shop hereabouts since the late eighties, as for bookshops forget it. This small Welsh ex- steel town has never had one. The nearest place I can have access to these kind of shops is Chester some distance from me across the border. I haven’t got a car so I can only travel there via bus or train. This I can no longer manage due to the physical limitations imposed upon me by virtue of a badly arthritic right hip. In short too much travel coupled with too much walking is very painful. I managed to grit my teeth during the summer to make the effort to make the journey to meet up with some friends who I am very fond of but that won’t be happening again I’m sad to say.
I am an artist, a painter by inclination and choice. I have earned my living from creative endeavours all my life, I am sixty seven years of age now so I’ve a little bit of direct experience of how difficult it is to make a living from creative work. So spare me the holier than thou tone. Thank you. I have never complained about the lack of a local record shop on here or elsewhere. I never will. I have other more pressing life issues I have to deal with.
I really couldn’t care less how others access the things they need to make their lives bearable. My only hope is that they manage to find a way to so and by so doing it brings them some measure of joy and peace. Hopefully they will realise that everybody’s circumstances are different and understand that there is more than just their way of enjoying the things we love. ✌️
Sorry if it came across wrong, but there was nothing personal in my post – I just took your quote as a jumping-off point. (BTW, my own flat has just been cluttered even more by a genuine P-squeezer original – a present for our wedding anniversary from some London friends. 😉 )
No problem Fatima. Hope you dig the painting and it brings you joy. I like my “orphans” to find good homes. 🙏
While I have every sympathy with artists being ripped off by labels, there was no golden age. Back when CDs were selling a shitload, a band would be loaned a load of money, told they had to spend more on making videos, and see their tiny royalties only being used to chip away at what they owed the label. The best that most could hope for was escaping at the end of their contract with the debt written off.
Now Spotify pays artists poorly, but what is never mentioned is that it is one of a number of new revenue streams. It represents 45% of the streaming markets, so artists also receive royalties from Apple Music, Amazon Music, Tidal, Deezer and YouTube. Together with sync fees, physical sales, live revenues and merch, I’d say it’s difficult but not impossible to earn more than via the old model. An unpopular opinion, but Spotify is only half the story.
I have a few musician friends who earn their living by playing music. None of them will agree with your comment.
I get that. But two questions: would they be better off under the old system? And do they blame Spotify while not mentioning Apple, Amazon, Deezer etc? I have no doubt that they’re struggling. It’s only the extent to which this is all blamed on Spotify that I take issue with.
I think the point about streaming is that it came to be a means for record companies to monetise music in digital form that would succeed in the face of the great free for all that was, and it has proven to be successful. In that context it’s justifiable. The alternative is unsustainable. The record companies can still make money, the show can still go on. The record companies can rip off acts just like before. Same as it ever was.
I stream and I like that I can hear more or less anything at reasonable quality. I could never own all those albums and songs that I want to hear anyway. I can be more adventurous without having to get the product and err on the side of caution. It’s a revelation in that sense.
It amuses me greatly that Napster pay the highest rate per stream of all the streaming services. Just typing that made me arf.
The old school model of music is pretty much dead. Record labels were essentially just banks that loaned money to musicians. A significant proportion of the cash they spent on acts was never seen again given how difficult it was to predict who would would go on to be chart toppers and the innate unreliability of so many of the performers.
The record companies used their risk of loss as a way to stack the deals such that if there was any money produced, they always got paid first and always got paid the most. Artists got nothing until the original advance was recouped, and then were lucky to see more than 20% of the income their work generated. And they were usually charged for studio time, promotion, fruit and flowers etc before their 20% kicked in. And that was on top of the fact that they would usually have signed over the rights of their songs as a term of the original advance. I’ve never exchanged more than a few words with a really successful musician, but I’ve talked to a few who were signed between the 70’s to 90’s, some of whom had an absolute blast at the time, and all of whom ended up in debt, mostly with no idea how many CDs they sold, and even less idea of “where the money went”.
Some artists still got to be significantly rich, the irony being the more they earned the more power they had to negotiate even richer terms. As David Hepworth would claim, musicians are typically much poorer than you think, or much, much richer. Some labels went bust, so the record companies covered their exposure with the fabled 360 deals, that made sure they got a slice of merchandising, TV and film revenue, and pretty much anything else they could grab.
Streaming saved the music industry. After years of trousering cash like bandits whilst telling punters “home taping is killing the music” illegal downloading actually almost killed it. When the music companies finally woke up, in no small part as a consequence of seeing the likelihood of Apple stealing both their breakfast and lunch money, they figured out how to make streaming work for them. And they’ve done an outstanding job in that respect. And just like before, they get paid before everyone else, and in much greater amounts.
In 2021, whilst apparently robbing musicians on a daily basis, Spotify still paid out $7bn to rights holders. How could both these things be true? Well, it’s because the significant slab of the $7bn went to guess who? The music companies. And it’s the music companies contracts with their artists that determine what the actual artist gets paid. Which given that some contracts were struck before CDs existed let alone streaming, is often 80% of 20% of absolutely fuck all. And let’s keep in mind these are the same music companies that also control and get paid for the majority of physical product out there.
There’s a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame bearing the name “Sir Lucian Grange”. The man that signed the Psychedelic Furs to CBS. But that’s not why he has the star. It’s because he’s now the most powerful man in music bar none as Chairman and CEO of Universal Music. A company that racked up a bit over €4bn in revenue 10 years ago, but last year made over €10bn. In 2021 he earned over $200m which was more than every composer and songwriter in the UK combined made from streaming and sales in 2019. At the time the political colossus that is Esther McVey was “shocked” and vowed to put things right. I’m sure Grange wet himself hearing that, just like he does now laughing, every time Spotify are decried as the bad guy here.
This ⬆️
Tell you something about Universal Music Group. You may have heard that The Beatles have just released the Blue and Red compilations. UMG pressed every record store in the land to stock copious amounts of both releases. The have also released both editions in Blue and Red vinyl although if you want those you cannot buy them in any store or from Anazon you have to buy from UMG directly at ridiculous prices.
Having your cake and eating it comes to mind.
And here I will end: not saying it’s good, not saying it’s bad but some mid-2023 worldwide stats
“Music streaming makes up 84% of music industry revenue
The music streaming industry grew by over 10% over the last year
Music streaming’s global revenue currently sits at $17.5 billion
Paid music streaming makes up 23% of all music streaming
78% of people listen to music via a streaming service
Over 600 million subscribe to a music streaming platform”
“Over 600 million subscribe to a music streaming platform”
Current world population – 8.1 billion
Of which 32,563 buy a record each week (fact check needed)
I guess the remaining seven billion five hundred million avid record buyers taking to the streets every RSD would explain why that must have blue vinyl re-release of that Blur b-side that nobody actually likes is so difficult to purchase anywhere but ebay.
By the way, RayX is a troublemaker. He’s already forced The Baron out.
In countries like India, ( which accounts for about 18% of the world’s population), music goes onto You Tube. Even the most popular stuff seldom gets a physical release. This, I suspect, reflects the reality in most of the world.
This thread reminds me of being in Catholic school, where they explained to us the sliding scale of sins. By that metric buying a second hand record in a chazza might compare to looking down a girl’s top when she bends over and pirating still-not-released albums more akin to murder.
As we were all children when this was being explained to us, I would have to compare U2 dropping their album on our phones sans consent with the clergy diddling kids..
In a unique example of me being an early adopter of something I signed up to Spotify years ago having read an article about it in the press. Since then I have been a regular user, occasionally dabbling in other platforms such as Apple and Idagio, but ultimately sticking with Spotify, notwithstanding its faults. I have always continued to buy some physical product – either for completist reasons, or because I have heard something on Spotify that I really like and want to own, or because I buy it from the artist at a gig, or, occasionally, because a record isn’t available online. But the number of such puchases has reduced steadily every year, and I have bought fewer records this year than I can ever remember – maybe around 10, split evenly between vinyl and CD. And yet streaming unquestionably means I am listening to more different records than ever used to be the case, and am aware of more different and often fairly obscure artists. Whether that earns them a bean is, I admit, a completely different question altogether.