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Southgate quits

by 62 Comments

A good thing or a bad thing?

Did a great job in turning England into a truly national team rather than,
as has been all too often the case in previous years, a national joke, but
he lacked the tactical nous needed to take them further.

So who would you like to see next? Klopp? Howe? Tuchel? Potter?

0

Comments

  2. I’m not English, though long resident in England, and I thought he did a great job. 2 Euros finals, winning 50% more knockout tournament games than the combined managers between 1966 and his appointment. Of course nothing less than trophies will satisfy then fans and perhaps that’s how it should be.

    This is what I wrote here after the last Euros in 2021:

    As a Scot who spent much of my teens in Wales and my whole adult life, since 1985, in various parts of England it always used to bother me that I couldn’t find any good will for the England football team. Then came Southgate, with a team of appealing young players whom the nation celebrated when they did well, and if they lost against better opposition would just shrug and accept it.

    One glorious sunny day in 2018 I was in central London when England beat Sweden in the World Cup. We were in town for a matinee of Bat Out of Hell the Musical, but before the match we wandered through Soho where Pride was in full flow with all the rainbows and good cheer that a liberal, well-meaning straight couple could wish for.

    My (English) other half had hoped to avoid the score until we got home, but that was blown by one of the cast emerging for his curtain call with an England flag drawn on his chest in greasepaint to enormous cheers, then Charing Cross Road was packed solid with beery football fans running into the theatre crowd and Pride merging from either side, a mass of St George’s and rainbow flags and a communal observation that football was coming home.

    It was all enormously joyous, and I realised that all it took for me to like the England team, if not exactly wish the greatest success on them, was for the England football team to be likable. It was a million miles away from the belligerent entitlement, the pre-emptive bad temperedness always hovering on, or past, the brink of violence which I had come to assume was a natural and indivisible part of the national team’s fans’ identity.

    It was clear that Southgate and his team were way ahead of some of their fans on social issues, from taking the knee, to support for LGBTQ supporters, to messages in sympathy with Emma Raducanu, to Rashford’s involvement in school meals. This was a team largely from un-privileged backgrounds who wanted to use their position for good and progress, as well as being more successful than their direct predecessors on the pitch.

    All this came at some reputational cost among those whose esteem is not worth having. Some fans booed them taking the knee, using the excuse of an unconvincingly sophisticated familiarity with Marxism. The same politicians who castigated Southgate and his team for ‘gesture politics’ and urged them to keep politics out of sport found themselves unable to keep sport out of politics. Jacob Rees-Mogg recited John Barnes’ World in Motion rap in the House, and the Prime Minister decorated number 10 in England flags and squeezed an XXL England shirt over his collar and tie to attend the Germany game, Farage tried to hijack the final as a vindication for his own brand of patriotism.

    And then it all started to look familiar. We were in central London again when the Germany game was played. It was my girlfriend’s birthday and we went for a meal and to the opera. Screens had been set up in Trafalgar Square and some lads who didn’t have tickets had climbed the steps of St Martin in the Fields to see over the hoardings. ‘Two world wars and one World Cup, doo-dah, doo-dah’ they sang. They did look older than 25. Then came Leicester Square, which the BBC News directly before the game didn’t even mention, that bloke with a flare up his arse and the other one with the tiny cock, the ticketless rushing the barriers at Wembley.

    So in the end they lost against the better team, though people seems to forget that they held that other team for well over two hours of play before falling with weak penalties. So it goes, but I hope the progress which Southgate’s tam made on and off the pitch isn’t squandered. I rather enjoy being able to like the national team where I live.

  3. Southgate’s overly conservative tactics and gameplay were not always welcome, despite the 2 Euros finals. But any manager with loss ratio of less than 20% must be doing something right

  4. I think perhaps there is an overestimation from some quarters of what England can achieve. The pre-semi final matches suggested to me a tentative uncertainty, with much passing back to the goal. A long standing failing of the side going back decades, to constantly head back to their own goal mouth. This fault was only rectified in the latter stages. Hard to see that as a coaching issue when they get waved forward all the time. Maybe they don’t have enough world class players, they were always a quarter finals at best side before.

    • In the past 23 years Spain or a Spanish side have reached 27 major finals. They’ve won all of them. They’ve only lost to other Spanish sides. That indicates the real position of England and the EPL.

    • @allium-sativum

      Given the way the ball routinely got passed back to Pickford who then wellied it up the pitch in the hope of finding someone in a white shirt all through the final not quite sure they ever did rectify the fault, tbf.

      Excellent piece in yesterday’s Graun about the 75th minute throw-in England had when they were in the ascendant after their equalizer. Instead of hurling it into the box as he could and should have done, Walker chucked it back the halfway line from whence it went back to Pickford and into touch.

      • Pickford is an amusing figure, seemingly constantly exasperated with his team, making his own chancey forays into the other team’s half to launch the ball forwards. When they were more adventurous, making chances, they did better but often couldn’t keep the ball, and got sloppy. I see what is lacking as player failings more than tactics. The substitutions were effective though. A lot comes from being fresh when coming on the pitch, obviously so it’s not apparent that they should have come on earlier. The best teams showed more pace, life, skill. I agree Southgate is best leaving now at what may be the top. I’m not expecting a transformation and new heights.

      • That’s what annoyed me. Klopp, Guardiola and McKenna would have had their teams going for the jugular having equalised. We were in the ascendancy for about 5 minutes but soon surrendered it.

        In answer to @jaygee

  5. Not a bad record to leave with although he did seem too conservative at times in his tactics and perhaps too loyal to certain players. Had he got off to a bad start in the upcoming games then people would have been calling for his head straightaway so best to go now at a time of his own choosing. Apparently the FA were keen on him staying on for the next world cup in 2026 but think this is the right time…Eddie Howe for me, but maybe there’s an over estimation in the minds of fans as to what the team can realistically achieve. Hope they stick with an Englishman though.
    On a side issue sounds like the recent Copa America tournament in the US, seen as a dry run for 2026, was pretty shambolic in terms of pitches, facilities and organisation. Hopefully two years is plenty of time to fix it.

  7. Where’s the lightning one-touch passing in the England performance? It’s all over the Spanish side, but our lot don’t seem to have that knack.
    Why give it to Pickford, so he can belt it up the pitch where at least half the time it’s immediately possessed by the opposition who then come forward with it. Why don’t we keep the ball and move it forwards with lots of the above to maintain control?

    I think these things happen because we simply don’t yet have skillful enough players in the team.

    But that’s what Southgate has had to work with. I think it’s a shame, though understandable, that he’s bowing out now; I think he’s done very well with the resources at his disposal, and as @twang says, he’s very obviously a decent, honourable man.

    I doubt we will find as fine a successor, and we may lose what we have seen him gradually build. His critics may regret their complaints. Mischief, thou art afoot. Take thou what course thou wilt.

    • Spot on. One of the extraordinary things about much of the criticism he’s faced is the much repeated assertion by English fans and would be pundits that England had the best squad. Really? Better than Spain? Or France? Or Portugal? I don’t think so. There also seems to be an assumption that everyone else played glorious flowing football with only England looking ponderous and defensive. Try telling that to Italy and France fans. Truth is only one team played consistently well and that was the team that beat England (and Italy, Germany and France).

      • Germany played well. Not as artistically as Spain but, as ever, the template for how to maximise “British” style qualities of swift play, athleticism and doggedness but, importantly, allied to intelligence and courage while on the ball. They would have made worthy finalists, but it’s a knockout, innit?

    • Successive England teams have never mastered that “lightning one-touch passing” thing that Spain, Italy and the South American sides can do. There’s an inherent stiffness to them and that’s why they keep getting beaten by teams that naturally play in a flowing style.

      Southgate did a great job with what he had to work on and he’s moved on at exactly the right time (for him). Before the inevitable slump that historically, the England team are so prone to.

  8. I don’t watch a great deal of England these days, but I saw enough this tournament to recognise a poorly coached team.

    Square pegs jammed into round holes, a reliance on individual brilliance to compensate for a lack of actual structure. Rescued time and again by the quality of the players, but otherwise incoherent. Moments FC.

    No single player better sums up the malaise than Jordan Pickford, a keeper who is excellent if you’re playing in a bustling, physical, relegation-battling outfit but who has no business being on the pitch for a semi serious side because his feet aren’t up to it.

    When Guardiola arrived in England his first act on the job was to drop Joe Hart, to the immense consternation of the media, because he couldn’t switch the ball from one foot to another and play out quick enough. Virtually every decent side in both club and international football has a ball playing goalkeeper, but Pickford remains in post because he will make a couple of highlights reel saves per tournament, while quietly making it impossible for his team to play modern top level football. Moments.

    Personally, I’m glad Southgate has gone. I’ve seen England play worse (albeit not with a squad of this quality), but I’m still struggling to swallow the hypocrisy of his virtue signalling PR push, complete with dewy eyed letters to the nation and promises to “take a stand” against injustice, followed by the predictable reality that he’s a man who ultimately wouldn’t see his team take a yellow card for wearing the wrong armband, despite having promised to do so. A coward, in other words. He’ll of course be forgiven because he got results (up to a point), and it’s a results business, but that doesn’t make it right.

    One day, probably after my time, football will come to recognise that homophobia is no better than racism, and that if “it’s just their culture” isn’t an excuse in Eastern Europe, nor can it be in the Middle East. When that day comes I’m sure we’ll pull down statues and offer chin stroking critical reappraisals, because all of that is far far easier than walking the walk after you’ve built a personal brand on extensively talking the talk.

    I will be interested to see where Southgate lands next. While I know plenty of people who hold him in warm regard for the memories he’s provided them, virtually none appear to want him actually managing their club. Better to remember the moments than to have to actually watch that football nine months of the year.

    • Pickford’s ‘highlights reel’ saves greatly contributed to England progressing as far as they did. In the end, saves are what the goalie is meant to focus on, and he did a pretty good job of it.

          • Did you see an England game in the Beckham-Rooney era, BL?

            Note – I stopped watching after the Beckham debacle v. Brazil in 2002 up to the Rooney debacle v. Iceland in 2016… so I’m depending on you on this… but I do know their record:

            OK, let’s do this one more time.
            10 tournaments 1998-2016 – no semi-final.
            4 tournaments 2018-2024 – 1 semi-final, two finals.

            Do the maths.

            For once – it’ll be the only time – I’ll cut John Terry some slack as, in an interview he gave in the last few days, he admitted that his era was not in the same league.

            • Yep. England were crap 10 years ago, and they’re poorly coached now.

              Squad for that Iceland game was absolute garbage. It’s much stronger now – largely the result of improvements to youth coaching implemented after 2010.

              Regrettably, no such improvements in the development of English managers. Perhaps that will come next.

        • “In top level football a goalkeeper’s distribution is as important as their ability to make saves.”

          ^^ This. From the point that the passback rule was changed, keepers ability to play a ball out accurately became vital. Over and over we watched Pickford hoof the ball to just over the half way line, and lose possession. Which meant our midfield saw less of the ball and service to our forward(s) was piss poor. the requirement for game saving saves reduces the less you give the ball away.

          • In fairness to Pickford, his distribution for Everton is decent. I’m assuming he was acting under direct instruction here, which was either a result of an attempt to win the ball back high up, or the fact that Declan Rice isn’t the English Pirlo people thought he was.

            I totally agree that a goalkeeper’s distribution is important these days, but literally as important as his ability to make saves? I’d go 70/30 on the saves. I don’t think Courtois, for example, is the greatest passer -I doubt anyone remembers the 2022 Champions League final for his superb distribution.

            • It depends on the system.

              Everton are well coached, and Pickford plays his role well, but it’s a very different style to the one that tends to be successful at the absolute top of the game now. Which is why Dyche will never manage a Champions League side and Pickford almost certainly won’t play for one.

              What the crowd remember and what is actually effective are two very different things these days (regrettably, in my view), and it’s the mark of a good keeper that when they’re asked to use their feet you don’t notice it. It tends to be the howlers that linger in the memory.

              So, maybe 70/30 for some teams and 50/50 for others. But really you want to be in that latter category if you seriously aspire to win things and have the players to do so, both of which boxes are ticked in England’s case.

              • Real Madrid – and Courtois as mentioned – didn’t need a great ball-playing goalkeeper when they were hoovering up Champions League trophies: they had two world-class midfielders (Modric/Kroos) who could pass the ball effectively; England had Rice and Gallagher in tandem at one point in the tournament.

                Italy had one of the greatest goalkeepers of all time in Buffon when they won the World Cup. He didn’t need to be a great passer, as he had Pirlo in front of him. When Croatia beat England in the semi-finals in 2018, they had Modric and Rakitic. I’d argue that England’s constant lack of midfielders who can do the simple things effectively (simple as distinct from ‘easy’), e.g. control and play a forward pass when under pressure, contributes more to our problems than anything else.

                • Yep, football is definitely easier if you have Modric and Kroos in midfield. It’s also easier if you can play out from the back. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

                  Kobbie Mainoo had some of the best passing stats of any midfielder at the tournament, despite only getting on the pitch in the latter stages – that kid can play. Declan Rice is excellent on the ball when played in a properly functioning system. The idea that neither of these players can control and play a forward pass under pressure seems pretty inaccurate to me, although I do understand how one could get that impression from watching Connor Gallagher.

                  This stuff about England not having the players simply doesn’t wash. They may look garbage when they play for England, but they don’t when under more competent management.

                  Similarly, the Spanish players all looked fantastic in part because they were in a system that worked; Marc Cucurella (to give but one example) came off a torrid club season and was one of the players of the tournament. Their front four for the final had scored fewer league goals between them than Harry Kane alone.

                  Buffon and Pirlo won the World Cup nearly two decades ago. Completely different sport – a keeper certainly didn’t need to be a ball player back then.

                    • Rice had a poor tournament IMV. He didn’t win tackles enough and gave the ball away too often when he did have it.

                      I don’t recall Pickford losing the ball in his own half and he didn’t put it directly into touch too often. I don’t think any goalkeeper impressed me with their distribution.

  9. He has bowed out at the right time. I don’t see where he could go from here without the constant sniping of the press.

    He’ll get a CBE or a Knighthood and then go on to manage Norwich City to Premier Leagure success in 5 years time!

  11. As Bingo says, it will be interesting to see where he goes next.

    While a few Ingurland managers were successful before managing the national
    Team (Revie, Ramsey, Robson, el Tel) none of them exactly set the world alight
    after returning to club level.

    Given their love of big name managers, Man U would seem to be an obvious
    destination. Given GS’s mediocre club record and the way the club chews through
    managers, not sure it would be a very satisfactory union for either party,
    .

    • It’s a different job though. Club managers don’t have anything like the media scrutiny and deal with the same players week in, week out. The national team manager has a whole political relationship with the various sports bodies to negotiate as well as trying to mould a team out of a load of individuals who don’t even seem to be able to complete passes away from their home club. GS might struggle as a club manager but there is ample evidence of how many club managers fail at national level too.

      • You can also buy players to fit the way you want to play. That’s not possible obviously at international level.

        Everybody slams Southgate for being defensive, another defensive manager, Mourinho has had massive success at club level, probably without Southgate’s “man management skills” meaning he moves on quickly after he “loses the dressing room”

    • International managers get a fraction of the time club managers have to coach a team. Minimal time for 1 on 1 work, very limited capacity to bring in game plans that are designed just for the international team,

  14. It’s a shame. I see Southgate as delivering the strongest period of England success in my lifetime. He was largely impeccable in how he handled the media – which is, I think, the hardest part of the job.

    English football fans are torn between wanting to see brilliant football that thrills and doing well in competitions. The reality is these things rarely coincide.

    None of the managers being suggested fill me with any confidence they will increase the chances of winning a competition. Graham Potter or Lee Carsley would be my pick. Potter is similar to Southgate which means that he would be hugely unpopular with many supporters. Carsley knows the players and the FA. But isn’t a name.

    Poch will not win with England in the same way he didn’t win with Spurs, PSG and Chelsea (Ligue Un doesn’t really count with PSG’s might) but the games will be exciting. For neutrals not England fans. Bielsa would be good but he’s busy getting Uruguay (surely the South American England) to semi finals.

    I don’t blame Southgate for resigning. I think his attitude has been exemplary and some supporters and the press have behaved poorly. If results reflect the supporters, then we have already had more success than we deserve.

  15. Some extremely vocal England fans believe that, as a footballing nation, we are consistently on a par with Germany, Spain, France and Italy. This is arrant nonsense. A Germany fan the same age as me, for example, will have seen his side win two World Cups (and play in two other finals) and a European Championship. Are we comparable to Portugal? They won the Euros in 2016; they were finalists in 2004…so, probably not.

    The truth is pretty stark: since 1966, we have been in precisely two finals. Or, more accurately, we’ve been in two finals since 2020. 1966 aside, we’re actually more on a par with Sweden, Croatia and Romania.

    Talksport can be occasionally amusing, but, in general, it’s an open forum to discover some of the lowest IQs in Britain. It’s packed with shouty types – including former England players who got nowhere near finals – decrying Southgate’s regime as utter failure. By their sweaty logic, the next England manager has to win the World Cup to be considered a successful appointment. Under Southgate, a massive improvement is, at least, a relative success; being knocked out by Iceland or not qualifying for tournaments ( 1994, 2008) is failure. Failure and success are on a continuum in tournaments – they are not diametrically opposed. England are highly unlikely to get to the final of the next Euros, as the odds of three in a row are simply too long.

    Any attempt to offer a nod to Southgate’s record induces certain people to accuse you of portraying him as a cunning synthesis of Guardiola and Sacchi – nobody is claiming this. He’s clearly not the greatest tactician, but international football isn’t just about tactics. We all probably agree it’s time for a new voice, but it doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the ride we’ve been on.

    • It’s that absurd sense of entitlement that mutates into a delusional belief “football will finally “be coming home” every time a tournament rolls around.

      The most wonderful thing about the national team’s actually winning something would hopefully be never having to hear that fucking awful dirge ever again.

  16. I don’t buy this “second most successful England manager ever” description. Counting Nations League, I make that five tournaments and no wins so that would be “the most unsuccessful England manager ever”

  17. Surely going to be Lee C or Eddie H.

    Given that EH seems to have been lucky not to get the chop (SWIDT?) at Sportswashing United when they underperformed in the early- to mid- stages of last season, I’d have been on the phone to the FA the moment GS quit if I was him.

    As the interim manager If they delay making the appointment, Lee Carsley has got an ideal opportunity to make the post his own. As GS did when the FA got rid of BFS and were considering putting Glenda H and Eileen Drewery in the dug out in his place.

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