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Remixing/Remastering – A Question

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I confess that I haven’t finished listening to the recent Remixing/Remastering podcast, but a question occurred to me. That is, what is the minimum level of hifi/audio system needed to properly appreciate a newly remastered or remixed album (not to mention the 8 or so earlier versions you might have!)? I’m not obsessively concerned with remixes, remasters with the exception of Miles Davis, The Beatles and Steely Dan but even there it’s not always easy to appreciate the changes made. I have Sonos throughout the house and a Bluesound Node/Rotel amp/Quad speaker system in my main listening room which is pretty decent to these (ageing) ears but even then the nuances are not necessarily easy to spot. Or is it perhaps a headphone thing? I have some fairly decent Sennheiser and AKG headphones but I don’t use them that often.

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  1. Headphones will always be the best sound because (a) one coincident drive unit (b) no room acoustics.

    Most people don’t get the full potential from their CD/streamer-based system because (a) loudspeakers are, by nature, less than perfect (b) room acoustics are, by nature, less than perfect.

    The best playback sound I’ve ever heard was a basic Teac CD player, a mixing desk, Quad power amps driving LS5/8 speakers. All the hardware was well off audiophile status, but I was listening in an acoustically designed & treated BBC radio studio.

    And yet… Hi-res files/streaming is measureably better than CD or vinyl, and much vinyl is cut from hi-res files. But, more than anything, I enjoy listening to vinyl records in a room. My record player is from 1972, amp designed in 1975, only the speakers are from this century (but based on a 1970s BBC design).

  2. I use headphones and speakers. Utilising both helps to keep listening to music fresh. They offer up different ways to experience the music I love. Headphones as Steve says remove the vexation of room acoustics and help me to pick apart a piece of music in greater detail than speakers can. Speakers on the other hand allow me to just lay back and wallow in the sound. Those inherent differences stop me from getting too acclimatised to how my kit sounds which puts the brakes on me from getting bored and straying down the path of eternally looking for my version of the perfect sound and continually upgrading kit. I have one rule I adhere to with upgrades which is if the money spent won’t make a dramatically perceivable improvement I don’t spend it.
    Spending time positioning speakers correctly is probably the best advice I can offer if you don’t or can’t spend on room correction panels, bass traps etc. I spent a lot of time with a measuring tape and masking tape getting my old Dali floorstanders positioned as best I can manage. They sound pretty good to my ears, not perfect but I have few complaints. As for headphones I’ve invested in a few pairs and I amp them properly. A dedicated headphone amp will insure that you get the best out of a pair of cans. Some speaker amps have pretty decent headphone provision but a lot don’t as it’s not seen as essential so why spend too much of the budget on it.
    I know this goes without saying but by far the most important thing is to enjoy the music you can hear and stop worrying about the intricacies you can’t. You can go on infinitely upgrading kit looking to wring out just a little more juice but diminishing returns kick in pretty early in audio and it can get stupidly expensive very fast.

    • I know what you mean about opting for speakers and ‘wallowing in the sound’. That’s very much my preferred way of listening and, as a result, I don’t use my headphones as much as I should and when I do I spend all my time switching between the Sennheisers and the AKG’s as they have very different sound signatures. I haven’t tried a headphone amp yet. Any recommendations?

        • Hmmmm. So I could take the pre-out output from my Cambridge Audio Azur, feed that to the Valhalla, and use the Valhalla exclusively to drive my Sennheisers?

          I feel compelled to ask…

          • Does the Azur have a Tape out or Line out? A Pre out will follow the volume control of the Azur, a Tape/Line out will be max volume, and then you control the headphone volume with the Schiit.

            • Aha. i had assumed that the ‘pre-out’ which is supposed to be for a feed to an external amp or a sub-woofy thing, was at ‘line level’. The fact that you are suggesting they are different levels explains why, when I digitised a Remmy Ongala LP recently, I had to crank the Nove-Duo gain knobs quite high! The needle-drop still sounded fine (the LP is taken from ancient two-track masters done in a basic studio somewhere in the Sahel) but I suspected the connection to the ‘pre-out’ might be the cause. Thanks folks, I’ll switch it over to the ‘Rec Out’ connectors.

      • Fifteen or twenty years ago there were not that many but headphones and suitable amplifiers have really taken off since. There are so many good ones, you really need to go and try them to see what suits you.

        If you fancy a trip to Biggleswade, the largest headphone outlet in the UK is near there.

        • As Steve says there is an enormous array of choice in headphone amps. Most contemporary amps will deliver more than enough juice to drive anything but a handful of really difficult to drive cans. Even a modest amp will easily drive a pair of Sennheiser 600 or 650. Talking of which many users of those headphones seem especially keen on using a valve amp to power them but that really is a matter of personal preference. Again as Steve advises a visit to a bricks & mortar outlet to try a few with your headphones would help.
          My daily drivers at the moment are a pair of Hifiman Arya V3. I run them balanced to a Topping A90 Discrete amp in low gain. I run the amp balanced from a Topping D90 le dac which is connected to my Bluesound Node 2i via toslink. I run a different dac from the Node to my speaker amp via coaxial. As I’m sure you are aware a Bluesound Node runs with all the output connections hot so you can hook up multiple devices. I found this the most elegant solution for my needs and as I prefer a more detailed sound from my cans to my speakers running two different sounding dacs accomplishes this for me without comprising either the sound from my cans or my speakers.

  3. Remixes are usually very obvious if new elements have been added, removed or otherwise fiddled about with. Remixes are usually remastered too, though not for Steven Wilson as we discussed.

    Remasters are probably less obvious in isolation but your setup sounds fine to hear the differences – if you have a previous generation and A/B them it’s been more evident. But the thing with mastering is usually it’s to get the set of songs to hang together as an album and to sound “good”, though there are famous exceptions from the “loudness wars” where the mixes sounded great then a tame mastering engineer who should have known better compressed them to the point where the top end was clipped and distorted.

  4. I rarely listen on headphones these days as it is a bit antisocial, and I just prefer to have the sound in the room too. Treated myself to some Chartwell LS6/f speakers from Grahams last year, and they are just so revealing – contrary to accusations of listening to the system, you just want to listen to more and more music through those bad boys. They were a total revelation – I auditioned several options and they are just such a upgrade. I use a Roksan Caspian M2 amp and CD player and my old SEE Revolver turntable (occasionally!), and a Bluesound Node for streaming.

    • LS6 are a half-way-house between the small OB monitors LS3/5 (beloved of many an audiophile) and the medium-sized LS5/9, a smaller version of the large studio monitor LS5/8 I mentioned above.

      LS6/f is a floorstanding version of the LS6, so with a bigger cabinet (about 3/4 the volume of the LS5/8). Are you still following?

      Anyhow, all BBC designs are a ‘flat’ monitor sound.

      I have PMC (Professional Monitor Company) speakers designed by the man who designed the speakers for Maida Vale when he was a BBC employee. They’re not dissimilar in sound.

      • Yes, I have found out a lot about all this!

        I would describe the sound as ‘neutral’ or ‘transparent’, which doesn’t sound very exciting at all!

          • Whenever I get together with my oldest friend inevitably talk eventually turns to discussing the desirability of the speaker disappearing to leave the sound simply occupying the air in the room. You don’t have a monopoly on dull Steve believe me.

            • Leaving Quad electrostatics out of the discussion, what do you think about dual concentric speakers, then? I get an effect approaching that with both KEF LS50s and Elipson Planet Ls.

                • I haven’t heard the Elipsons but I know the KEF LS50s and they are very good speakers especially the meta. Do you run them with a sub? One of my dream speakers are the KEF Blade Two Meta but I am resigned to never attaining such artifacts for the obvious reasons.

                  • No – no sub on either system. Bass is high quality – I don’t need it to be artificially trouser-flapping (and that’s speaking as a bass player!)

                    Elipson are great – I believe they supplied monitors for the French national radio station, when it was ORTF – so that would have been loosely equivalent to the LS3/5a, I suppose. A very natural sound, in my room anyway…and the Planet L has a very 1960s/1970s “futuristic” look, which I like…

                    • I wouldn’t describe adding lower frequencies via a subwoofer as artificial. It’s just putting in place those frequencies not possible from a pair of stand mounts. As long as you get the crossover point dialled in correctly subs make a very worthwhile contribution. As always though it’s all a matter of personal preference.

                    • I don’t feel that I’m missing out on any bass – having said that, I’ve never tried a sub. I can see the point with small sat/sub set-ups, not so much with “full range” stand mounts. Notwithstanding the artificiality of most recording processes, I like things to sound real – my new test record is Bill Evans Trio Live at the Village Vanguard – the bass sounds real and the club sounds real, through both of these speakers – I’ll take that!

            • Getting back to Quads: the only speaker that I ever “heard” vanishing completely to just leave the music were Quad ESL63s. I’d love a pair of the new Quad ESLs but, even if I could afford them, I couldn’t accommodate them – I’d need to knock a wall down to give them enough room to breathe (not sure my commitment runs that far).

              • As for subs maybe you could ask a local audio dealer if you could borrow one on a trial basis just to see if including one fills out the bottom end to your liking. I wouldn’t mind betting you would be pleasantly surprised but as I said it’s all a matter of personal preference.
                After a lot of mucking about positioning my Dali’s I’ve got them into a position where they create a very open and transparent soundstage and they frequently disappear sometimes quite disconcertingly with sound appearing to arrive at my ears from all parts of my room and occasionally even from outside it. A lot can be improved simply by positioning speakers optimally and it occasions zero expense.

                • The Quad Electrostatic issue is something else – I’ve never heard speakers like them. Something about the way they do the job – exquisite! I know they are criticised for lack of low bass and ultimate power handling – but any time I’ve heard them they just sound…right! If my room was big enough to accommodate them, I’d do without new vinyl (and food, whisky and coffee) to save up.

                  I’m very happy with my current sound – I don’t have any urge to change anything or experiment. Maybe I have a rose-tinted view of the Quad company, formed at a hifi show in Edinburgh, decades ago; and I still use Quad amps now…

                  • I once heard those Celestion 6000 back-to-back 12″ subs on ESL63 Quads and it sounded almighty. Rather like the electrostatics, they produced as much sound at the rear as at the front, but none to the sides. Wallop!

                    I tend to prefer large-box speakers (floorstanders) as you get more bass but better blended into the main mid & treble output. External subs can be tricky to set for for level, and phase becomes more of an issue as frequency lowers.

                    • I too have a preference for floorstanders for the reasons you outline. I’ve used a sub with stand mounts long ago and subs are a pain in the ar*e to get right. Even getting one into the correct position in a room can be trying to say the least but once set up correctly they make a discernible difference to the sound of a pair of stand mounts which however good are limited in ability to dig deep simply because of cabinet size. Assuming they are box speakers of course.

                    • @fitterstoke Not to the point of obsession but if it’s present I want to hear it, especially if I’m listening to Dub or EDM. I don’t want it bleeding into the mids though so I appreciate a nice tight bottom end.
                      🫢

  5. Thanks guys for the suggestions. I’m away from home at the moment but will need to check my Sennheiser and AKG headphone model numbers to see if they would benefit from being driven by a headphone amp rather than via the Bluesound Node. I have a fairly high end Rotel amp (RA 1570) so that’s an option rather than a separate headphone amp presumably. Wouldn’t the Rotel have a decent enough headphone output? It cost enough!

    • The headphone amp in the Bluesound will be functional rather than good. It’ll work but not as well as a dedicated amp. All half decent headphones will benefit from decent amplification. As for the headphone amplification on your Rotel all you have to do is try it and see what you think. If it makes you smile it’s good enough. As I said above some speaker amps have pretty good headphone provision others not so good. For many amp designers the headphone stage is there simply as a convenience for the consumer and not a lot of the budget for the amp is allocated towards it but some engineers put a bit more towards it than others. All you can do is give it a go.

  6. I truly haven’t understood a word of anything above.
    I don’t like listening to music through headphones even though I 100% accept the fidelity is amazing.
    True appreciation is me plonked in the sweet spot, right in the middle of two seven-foot high speakers. That ain’t gonna happen any more cos Mrs Lodestone won’t permit it.
    Saying that, a Fiio dac may well be one of the world’s most important inventions. Bloody hell

  7. Final question from me. If I were to get a headphone amp to work with my Bluesound Node, what is the best way to connect it. The Node has RCA sockets but these are connected to my Rotel amp. Can I use the single coax out socket or the single optical out socket? These might seem basic questions to some but I can’t seem to find clear answers online.

    • I have my headphone amp connected to a external dac. It’s the dac that’s connected to my Node. I use a good quality toslink cable between the dac and the Node. The dac is then connected to my headphone amp.
      I don’t use the internal dac on my Node. I use it purely as a digital transport, all the digital to analogue conversion whether for my cans or speakers is taken care of by either the dac I have connected via toslink for headphones or an R2R dac I have connected via coaxial to my Node, that dac I then run balanced to my speaker amp. This means I don’t have the single ended outputs of the Node connected to either amp.
      Does your Rotel have digital connections? Maybe a coaxial or toslink connection for a CD player? This would mean your amp has a dac on board so you could connect your Node to your Rotel via one of those which would free up the single ended outputs on your Node for connection to a headphone amp. The other option would be to look at headphone amp/dac combined units of which there are a growing number and would accommodate using either of the digital outs on the Node and easily solve the problem for you. I honestly have no idea whether the headphone connection on the front of the Node could be utilised. It’s not something I have considered.

    • To add-to-stroke-further-confuse Pencil’s answer: it depends, as some headphone amps have digital inputs (i.e. with a DAC inside). If your headphone amp of choice does have a digital input, it is probably best to connect it that way, as the DAC bit will be designed to complement the amp bit.

      Most bits of kit with analogue and digital outputs run them ‘hot’, so you can use both analogue (to your Rotel amp) and digital connection (to a separate headphone amp) simultaneously.

      • Yep. My answer was a bit confusing I admit. If Jazz didn’t already own a Bluesound I’d be tempted to say buy a Fiio R7 streamer/dac and headphone amp all in one. However the obvious solution would be for Jazz to look at dac/ headphone amp combos if his Rotel doesn’t have any digital connections. See I can be concise if I really try.

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