I saw this on Tim Burgess’ Twitter. I assume it is the sort of thing Afterworders would support (regardless of political persuasion). Sign/ignore as you wish.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/563294
Petition for visa free travel for musicians and artists
by 41 Comments
This is going to be a bureaucratic nightmare and Im all for this campaign. However I think the chances of any notice being taken are minimal – people have been raising this issue for a while. And even if the UK government does actually try to do anything why would the EU agree? We’re not members anymore. Just one of many things we are going to have to get used to as a small inward looking island somewhere off the mainland.
Completely agree with this. It’s a good idea but given the shower of a so-called government we currently have and the fact that the EU must surely see us a serious irritant, this is probably never going to get off the ground. I’ve signed it though…
Yes. I’m all for Tim’s campaign, but this is the new reality. I was amazed to hear Rishi Sunak over the weekend talking about how he hopes – post-Brexit deal – that the financial services sector (80% of the UK economy) might gain preferential access to EU markets, despite the deal outlining the opposite. I’m not sure if this is a restatement of Tory cakeism, or an early bid to rejoin.
Looking at it from the other way round, how do you think EU artists would feel about UK musicians being granted unfettered access to their market?
The truth is there are a lot of things which still have to be ironed out so you never know. EU musicians want to come here and EU promoters want to book British bands. I’ve signed it of course and emailed my MP but I doubt it is on anyone’s priority list even though it is an area the UK is still genuinely world beating.
I’ve probably said it before – the difference between the UK wanting access (or trade) with the EU, and the EU equivalents wanting to come to the UK is a major one.
A little bit more paperwork, and an EU artist can tour the UK as before.
But for a UK artist the situation has reverted to 1970: if he wants to tour Europe, he has to do the paperwork for every single country. And he has to declare his equipment (down to the last cable or switch) at every border-crossing, paying a deposit for expensive gear like a mixing board on entering, and collecting it back when leaving a certain country. No wonder Robert Fripp has ruled out continental tours for King Crimson in the foreseeable future. He even considered making KC a US-based band to make touring manageable.
Don’t understand the border crossing for each country thing. Most are not enforced within the EU or within Shengen agreement countries which the UK was never a part of anyway. And what do American, Canadian, Australian etc bands do when touring Europe? UK can’t be treated any differently to other non EU countries.
It’s all part of the general trade & tax agreements between countries. As of today the UK succeeded in doing their best to have one of the worst agreements of all with the EU (what your man Boris optimistically called “the Australian one” 😉 😉 ).
If you don’t understand – ask a musician.
But the UK did a deal with the EU not the individual countries. Obviously I haven’t read it but e.g. Switzerland has a deal with the EU that allows people from any country within the EU to work there (if certain conditions are matched ) the country is immaterial.
»But the UK did a deal with the EU not the individual countries. …«
Exactly. So the artist (or any other business) has to deal with each country separately and one by one. That’s the difference between the proposed “smooth” Brexit deal from what, 2015?, and the current, bottom line paperwork that only covers most of the basic problems. Like fish.That nobody wants to eat.
It seems as though paperwork will be required at each border if a post by Attila the Stockbroker is correct. What a shit show.
Still don’t get it the regulations in those individual countries is EU regulation. If you do need paperwork for each country then it should be the same paperwork as the countries have all agreed to be regulated by the EU.
It would appear from Fatima’s post above, that Boris hasn’t negotiated a deal that covers this? There’s bugger all I can find on line to confirm or deny this.
There is no deal between the UK and the EU on transportation of work equipment between us and the member states, so it reverts to what was the situation before we joined the EU, where Carnets were required for each country you proposed to work in, listing everything you were bringing with you. One difference from then is that work visas will not be required for a while, as the current deal does allow visa-less travel between us and EU countries for purposes of work, for a limited time.
https://musiciansunion.org.uk/all-news-and-features/brexit-deal-contains-no-detail-for-musicians?fbclid=IwAR0Qr6Kq904_px6o0n7WGTy9lk4UpDxOFpgO3mLxNZu8KO055lCdhjU9FVU
Unlike the impression our government likes to give, each EU member state is sovereign and has freedom to regulate some issues as they see fit. Movement of people is one of those things (within limits). E,g, some states chose to restrict Bulgarians seeking work (for a while) – the U.K. didn’t.
This is one of those things.
Citizens of 3rd countries e,g. uK are subject to national not EU constraints on movement.
The carnet system in the 80s meant that the company temporarily exported the listed equipment. They registered the Carnet at the local carnet office (London when I worked in Wembley). A bond against the value of the kit was lodged and the carnet had a list of every item of equipment and its serial number. Customs could ask to see a particular item and check it against the carnet. Bad luck if it was at the front of the truck. I seem to remember we only listed cable boxes rather than every cable. The bond would be returned by the London office when the correctly completed carnet was returned at the end of the tour/job.
The carnet had entry, exit and transit forms and it wasn’t uncommon for smaller border posts to insist on taking the wrong form. I had a quick look to see if a form would be required for each border as before but it wasn’t obvious. Let’s hope not as half an hour at each border adds up.
I’m sympathetic but the majority who voted for Brexit voted to stop the free movement of people for work purposes between EU and UK (although I’m expecting a chorus of “we didn’t mean this though”) so I think it unlikely that this will be successful. I’m guessing that musicians who want to take their instruments and mics/ backline with them will need a carnet too. I was told several times on Facebook groups that “it’s just paperwork” but I’m old enough to have used ATA carnets and Eurocarnets and remember all the work that goes into preparing them as well as the extra time needed at each border crossing. This will be a major PITA and expensive too.
There’s always a map on the petitions website, showing the geographical spread of signatories. It doesn’t take much analysis to see that the strongest support is in constituencies with MPs who are not Conservative, so it will not bother the government one jot.
Festivals such as Africa Oye and WOMAD have been feeling the pinch of the hostile environment for years. This will now start applying to European orchestras and nice people who look like us, so maybe there’s just some hope that something will change.
I also remember carnets and having to smuggle some gear back from a trade show in Amsterdam because it wasn’t put into the van.
Still, at least after 2025 we’ll get to keep 25% of the fish we don’t like eating.
I wonder too what the effect will be on summer festivals. You might think it was great for UK bands, but maybe not.
Is it worth it to get together for only the UK festival circuit? Maybe you can play 2 or 3 festivals (everyone wants some exclusivity – I note Pixies are due to play only one “Yorkshire” gig, so I guess they will be in Manchester too…). When a band has say 10 European dates and 2 UK dates that seems like a reasonable touring summer. Can they make enough from just the UK to make it worthwhile?
I hope so, but I am sure bands will be worried about going back too many times to the same well (I remember that touring economics note from Fish, where he pointed out you need to leave a gig between gigs to leave people wanting more).
Mind you, with Covid there may be no summer festival circuit this year either.
Are there really enough decent UK acts to fill a festival lineup? Perhaps this will see the unwelcome return of Landfill Indie.
We keep getting Shed Seven, so it is already back.
Why would music professionals be treated differently from anyone else who regularly visits Europe in the course of their work? A British manufacturer exhibiting at trade shows in each country, for example.
What’s wrong with a particular interest group seeking favourable terms for their particular area of enterprise?
Nothing at all, but if artists want special treatment at the expense of other industries they need to be able to explain why they deserve it
Because they excel at something rather than being a pickled onion scented salesman selling some tat people probably don’t need anyway?
Do all artists and musicians automatically excel at something? Surely some are better than others? Do they, simply by declaring themselves artists rather than artisans, create more jobs and inward investment that say, the Melton Mowbray Pork Pie salesman?
I play the spoons, admittedly fairly atrociously, but nonetheless I demand full and unfettered access to the European Single Market, as I am an ARTISTE and not a bally tradesman.
The idea seems to be that four scotch-egg fuelled Brummie goths in a Transit should get free travel through 27 borders while truckloads of UK-manufactured pharmaceuticals fester at Marston waiting for the red tape to clear. Because artists.
You could apply this to more than just music. The point is that previously viable small businesses that used to trade profitably with the EU haven’t been considered during the shambolic “negotiations” and are just expected to manage the transition with what amounts to no notice or information and absorb the extra costs. It amounts to the same thing whether you have previously manufactured niche products or been a moderately successful band. None of this will be a problem for Global Pharma Inc or U2 wheras it could well prove insurmountable for smaller concerns.
You are not comparing like with like there.
A lorry full of pharmaceuticals is being transported from one place to another to be sold there. Those Brummie Goths are taking their guitars, drums etc. from place to place and then returning home with them when their tour is finished, but are expected to list everything they are taking with them, with serial numbers, and deposit a bond before leaving the UK which only gets repaid if customs officials on both sides of every border they cross certify each time, in writing, that the listed goods are all present.
A person going on business from his company’s London office to their Frankfurt office for a meeting does not need a work visa for a stay of less than 90 days under the new agreement. As far as independent business people and traders are concerned, they too are covered by this exemption but musical performers etc. are currently not on the list of exempted occupations in the agreement. There may be other omissions.
IIRC, the US required musicians to be “of merit” or some such definition in order to get a visa. Not sure who decided.
Let’s hope it isn’t the f*cking Quietus.
We could negotiate an artistic trade deal.
The Singing Nun and Plastic Bertrand to play Scunthorpe Baths in exchange for Macca touring all of the EU. Boris would think this was a fantastic achievement.
There’s a major flaw in your plan: Scunny baths is closed.
Yeah, but they don’t know that. Err…..
I think that’s a relic of inter-union squabbles of the past. At one time there was a reciprocal rule enforced, so that any UK musician travelling to the US had to be “paired” with a US musician coming here.
Who can forget that Dickie Henderson/Jimi Hendrix deal in ’67?
Look on the bright side; the ‘Melton Mowbray’ Pork Pie salesman will soon (tomorrow, as I write) be free – having taken back sovereign control and washed his hands of troublesome EU regualtions – to import ‘Melton Mowbray’ Pork Pies made in a far eastern sweatshop from Pangolin meat.
Indeed, the entire Brexit saga has been full of pork pies.
Well, a lot of other industries got specific carve outs in the deal, or had committees set up to handle them on an ongoing basis.
Musical acts got neither. So they are being treated differently already, albeit negatively.
The Musicians Union has been lobbying on their behalf throughout, but seemingly all they’ve got from the government is weasel words.