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Pele

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Obituary

Even if you know nothing about Football, chances are you’ll know Pele.
A fine player and a true gentleman

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42751517

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  2. As a football sentimentalist, I’ve dreaded this day & although it isn’t a surprise, I’m still deeply saddened.
    For me, unquestionably the greatest player of all time & there’s grainy YouTube showing that everything the modern titans have done, he did first – often on rough pitches & whilst being savagely kicked by opponents.
    I got his autograph in ‘73 or ‘74 on the pitch at Craven Cottage after Fulham hosted Santos in some contrived tournament & then of course lost it.
    Years later, I got a signed print from Mexico 70, which is on the wall at home.
    The only other player that thrilled me in a similar fashion was Cruyff, but Pele was & remains, the King.

        • Charmless though, isn’t he? It reminds me of Schumacher, or that dreadful period in the noughties when Simon Cowell always got the Christmas number one. Brilliant at what he does yes, but somehow soulless.

      • As Moose suggests, the fact that Messi just isn’t the completely class act on and off the pitch that Pele was means that, for me, he doesn’t come close. Other opinions, etc etc…

        • Back to separating the artist from his skill? Sorry but I don’t think Pele being a nice guy and Messi, at best, being charmless should count in this debate.
          And comparing Schumacher’s car driving and Simon Cowell being a dickhead to Messi’s sublime football skills is just silly.
          Talking of dickheads, Ronaldo, whatever you think of the preening prat, has a good claim to being the 3rd Best Footballer Ever.

          • You are Right* in this case LoW. Had to happen.

            Is no one going to mentiont Pele’s somewhat “massaged” goals scored total (youth matches etc)? Thought not, and quite right too. Not the time or place, that’s for sure.

            *personally I put Cruyff, Maradona and John Giles above Ronaldo, but arguing this one is as pointless as arguing about which band is better, the one I like, or the one you like 😉

            RIP to a great footballer and man 🫡

          • There are multiple factors when ruminating on such accolades & charm *is* one of them.
            Pele was charming & brilliant & black & all of those count when considering his appeal. He can be considered alongside Ali as somebody who transcended their sport to become an icon imbued with significance far beyond what he did on the pitch. Like Ali, he was supreme in an era when naked racism was quite normal, so his global elevation had/has extra *meaning*. Like all icons, a large element is about what is projected upon them, rather than who they actually are, & the less they say, the stronger this applies (Princess Diana is another classic example). This works very well with branding & Pele certainly shilled all over (notably for Coca Cola).
            Pele’s ultimate triumph occurred when ‘the people’s game’ arguably came into its own & peaked & his crowning glory coincided with the arrival of colour TV which in itself was dazzling & exciting.
            By contrast, Messi undoubtedly has dazzling skills, but is utterly charmless (resembling a cross between Polanski & a rodent), is a convicted tax evader & is a global media presence just as the carcass of Pele’s ‘beautiful game’ has stunk out the globe, courtesy of UEFA & FIFA – sportwashing & oligarchs hoovering up clubs & the awarding of the WC to Qatar. The ‘aura’ surrounding him is very different to Pele & there is zero chance that his Argentina side will generate a fraction of the love of the 1970 Brazilians.
            I’d add that on the footballing side, there have been far too many big games over his career where Messi has been anonymous to the point of invisibility & he has pointedly failed to take the game by the scruff of the neck in the manner of Maradona or even Ronaldo, which is why I personally don’t rate him as a peer of Pele, Cruyff or Maradona. Great when you’re 2 up, but questionable when you’re struggling.
            When I think of Pele, I’ll always think of Mexico 70, & when I think of Messi, I’ll always think of a shitty Pepsi Max or Gillette advert & that can’t complete.

            • Jeeziz. This is starting to resemble those threads where AWers pile into comedians they don’t find funny. Annoyed at being constantly compared, Peter Schmeichel protested that his Manchester United team would beat the Busby Babes 10-0. This was to miss the point.
              You can’t diminish Pele by observing he scored most of his goals in Brazil or he wasn’t as fit as the current lot. But equally, you can’t believe he’d somehow negotiate the contemporary football quagmire without getting crap on him.
              You can deramize him as being emblematic of a better time. You can use the evidence of your own eyes to believe he was the greatest of them all (albeit in a team game – and what a team Brazil had during that period). But Pele’s great because Messi’s/Maradonna’s/Cristiano’s not great..?
              I know football, at its core, is about making the other lot your foe for no really good reason, but that’s only until the final whistle..

              • Not what I was driving at, at all.
                The universal love for Pele is arguably as much about the world he inhabited when he was at his peak as it is about his talent and achievements on the field, which is why I mentioned him alongside Ali.
                The same applies to Messi & Maradona, with the difference being that almost everything they achieved & the accolades they received are whilst standing on Pele’s shoulders.
                As for the assertion that the opposition is only your ‘foe’ until the final whistle- without wishing to be rude, that suggests you’re not very familiar with Argentinian football culture, and their famous magnanimous attitude to opponents.
                Ever seen the footage of Maradona & his teammates singing about the Malvinas in the changing room after the ‘hand of god’ match? That tells you all you need to know. It’s not a proxy for conflict, it *is* conflict.

              • I remember some wag (not WAG) replied to that Schmeichel comment – and it was the ’68 team rather than the Babes – with “Well, to be fair they are all in their 60s”.

      • Why does the “GOAT” always have to be a goal scoring forward? Same with the Ballon d’Or (nearly every year). Other positions should also be considered, Beckenbauer, Moore, Banks, Maldini, Carlos Alberto etc. Obviously goalscoring is crucial, but stopping goals being scored also matters.

        • Messi as well as scoring three squillion goals also has seventeen squillion assists.
          In the end football is about scoring goals and that is why someone like, for instance, Bobby Moore will never be described as GOAT even though his defensive skills were sublime.

          • It’s about scoring more goals than the opposition. Some of the highest paid players in ice hockey are goaltenders because they recognise a good one makes the team very hard to beat. And a 1-0 win with a scrappy own goal from no shots on target gets the same no. of points as a 6-2 thrashing where the star player gets a hat trick.

            I might go along with Pele as the best ever, based on last 50 years, there were also others before him like Puskas or Eusebio who were legends, even John Charles (who could also play centre back), some really great players don’t get the opportunity to play for sides with the quality of Brazil or Argentina which certainly helps. What if George Best was English and won a couple of World Cups?

  10. I’ve never been a dyed-in-the-wool football nut. When I was at school I couldn’t even tell you which teams were in which divisions. I cut out the little league charts given away in the Victor, and kept the little team tabs in their places on the charts for a couple of weeks as the results came in. Then we came home late one Saturday afternoon and completely missed Grandstand; the charts got out of date and I immediately lost interest again. The best I could do was to name some of the Manchester City players during the exciting time of Lee, Bell and Summerbee, but that was about it. But I learned one footballing fact in 1966 that has resolutely stayed in my mind ever since. I still have the little book that taught me this fact, it’s on my shelves as I type. The book showed me a man’s real name beyond his nickname. He was a man who made football look like music. His name was Edson Arantes do Nascimento.

    Salute. Respect.

  15. In team sports, the idea that one person can be comprehensively deemed better than everyone else is rather silly. Ronaldo has the most international goals, most Champions League goals and most domestic goals, but is he even the best player ever to be called Ronaldo? Has Messi ever played for a truly terrible team? If Haaland carries on like he is doing, he’ll break every record going, but is a finisher ever as thrilling as a dribbler?
    One thing with Pele that can’t be denied is he transcended his sport in a way that very few sportsman have ever done: Muhammad Ali is the only truly comparable athlete. Footballers may be equally famous or even more so, but he was first.

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