I read with interest the two recent ‘Beatles’ threads and the playful dispute between HPS and Johnny C. One of the more intense moments (though still playful, I think) was the remark from HP about caring: ‘who cares’. The obvious rejoinder was issued: clearly HPS did and does.
It is always fascinating (to me, at least) about why we care about these matters. I have rarely posted here; I used to do a little at the old place and I had a habit of making negative remarks about the Australian cult band The Go-Betweens; I did so partly out of bewilderment about intensity of the love for the GOBs and the intensity of my own dislike. My dislike reached fever pitch when Robert Forster was a guest on the Podcast and delivered one of the most embarrassingly inept performances I had ever heard from a highly regarded professional (tuneless non-singing, the most rudimentary guitar playing and bad lyrics). My post about this certainly resonated with some and before long the standard complaints were out: it was ‘my opinion’ and that ‘there are more important things’.
I have wondered about this notion of importance for a while. People who speak of Dylan without anything approaching familiarity really bug me. Why do I care? A barrister friend likes to pontificate about cricket and he makes the most woeful misjudgments: we had a quite emotionally violent argument about the Australian batting order.
Of course, a site such as this exists because of a shared understanding that music matters, that art matters, that personal expression matters. I was reminded of this while watching ‘The Disappointment Choir’. I was amused by Bob’s self-deprecating remarks and I admired his courage. I admired the performances too.
On another level, though, I am aware that although I am regarded as a fairly gentle kind of chap, I have this odd kind of anger and I use these ‘unimportant issues’ as a safe way of letting off steam. In all of the other areas of the ‘superstructure’ such as politics, the workplace, religion, relationships, it seems to me that arts and sport is a field where it’s mostly okay to be a little more carefree. But we care very deeply.
Some things to think about there.
I agree with Mike. Gently profound, EGB. Without art we just function.
I think where it gets tricky is when you take it personally if your favourite, or most important, music is dissed. It feels like a personal slight. I have no opinion on the Go-Betweens, although I frequently use their eponymous bridge to use the Brisbane River. But if, as often happens round here, someone dares to suggest that the Beatles weren’t quite as important as I think they are, it feels somehow as though my life is being devalued, or at least that bit of it between 1962-70. This is absurd, clearly, and I like to think I’m adult enough to rise above it (unlike in some of the political threads, I might add). And you can only say ‘you had to be there’ so often. But, although there are certainly ‘more important things’, it is for the individual to decide just what is important to him or herself. It’s what makes us individuals.
Identification is the element that leads to unnecessary emotion, when you “take it personally.” As to the Fantabulosas, Mike, I was there, saw them live, bought most of the records as they came out, was totally in love with them. Complete fan identification, and I sneered at anybody who thought that Dylan or the Stones were better. I just couldn’t see how anyone could not think the Fabs were Number One in absolutely everything, and there are still a few die-hards on the blog whose personal identification is so deep they see suggestions they could be wrong as devil’s advocacy or just plain mischief – laughable, in either case.
It’s entirely possible to care about music without tipping yourself (and your sense of judgement) head-over-heels into identification. Caring about music should mean involvement and investment, support and pleasure. Not loss of critical faculties and knee-jerk defensiveness. My love of the Mamas & Papas, It’s A Beautiful Day, Little Feat, Quicksilver Messenger Service, The dB’s, The Gordian Knot, and countless other groups is not at all diminished by anyone else’s lack of appreciation (because they clearly have shit taste). I form affinities with some groups, not others, but I’m in love with none of them.
It’s more complicated than that, you’re over-simplifying. I’m not 16 any more, and I have no time for those Beatles better than Stones playground arguments. (Or, to go back a little further, Cliff v Adam*.)
I love Little Feat too, and the Band, and Spooky Tooth (and that’s a pretty lonely furrow I’m ploughing there, I can tell you). I listen to them and loads of others all the time, possibly even more than the Beatles. But the Beatles are sort of…embedded somehow. I said it was absurd and I’ll repeat that: it’s absurd. It’s entirely personal, and I’m not interested in making common cause with a few die-hards on the blog.
It’s also, of course, important not to take what I say too seriously. I was merely responding to what egbdf said, stating point of view.
*That’s the Cliff Adam Singers v the Adam Cliff Singers.
quite liked JL’s version of willie the pimp
Where did that appear JW? Are you thinking of the Sometime In New York City jam?
Mike, I think my comment is more complex than yours, and that you’re oversimplifying. Opinions, eh?
World would be a better place without them. Opinions are the opiate of the people.
OOAA.
God knows why I’m drawn inexorably back into this quagmire of pointlessness, but I think it’s worth making a few points.
A long time ago on this very blog (or the one before it) I quoted Jack White’s comments about Dylan being an “important” figure in music. Bob (who else) jumped straight in with studs showing and snorts of derision. Nobody was more important than anyone else in pop music, he insisted. But that’s simply not true. Some artists are vitally important.
Elvis, Dylan, The Stones, Mozart, Beethoven, Shakespeare, the great painters, poets and architects. They are all really, really important to us because they have helped change the human condition and, yes, they really did change the world (or the part of it we inhabit). Their work has the capacity to calm our fevered brows and speak to our very souls.
So it is with the Beatles. Just because over-familiarity has fostered a recent widespread dismissive contempt in certain areas, that doesn’t diminish their towering importance one jot. Sure there are countless other records I’ll play before the Beatles these days, but that means nothing.
Frank Zappa is probably a “greater” musical figure than the Beatles for instance, but he could never have the worldwide reach of the Fabs. From babies to grannies, via dope-smoking hippies and intellectuals, they all loved the Beatles. Theirs was a truly global audience and the world loved them.
The Beatles were and still are massively important.
Now over to HP for a scathing and possibly withering rebuttal.
I agree with the first half of your first sentence JC 🙂
That’s a start, I suppose….
I’m with Junes on this. But then I only got that far in before blacking out.
To be fair, though, I did black out when making my own comment. I never intended it to be that brief.
You call that withering?
I’m withering as fast as I can …
Too much wind, not enough wuthering
“Quagmire of pointlessness”
Afterword T-shirt.
Is this the new name chosen by our Languedoc correspondent?
It’s Lodestone of Wrongness’ tag team partner
I’d love to hear more about how the Rolling Stones “changed the human condition”.
Yeah, cos music isn’t important at all, is it?
Please, Johnny – past tense. We all know people stopped making important music in the mid 70s.
Well, there is that too.
On the upside, it’s given the human condition a bit of a breather after all that changing it had to do between 1964 and 1971.
Bingo – check out photos of Keef from ’64 and ’74 to witness how much he changed his ‘human condition’.
Ha!
But what about when you know your love/fanatacism/blindness about a band/artist is entirely correct only BECAUSE you have a contrary view to any of the conventional received wisdoms. If everyone says I’m wrong, by definition, hey, I am right!
I think that rarely do we think we are right ‘because’ we have a contrary view. It is a useful thing to apply Socratic method to received wisdom. I was swayed by HP’s application of it in The Beatles stuff. I think, now, that there is little to no real objective difference in quality between pop hits of the Monkees and others and those of the HJH (pop hits, Johnny).
You can argue that there’s no difference in quality between the Monkees and Beatles hits if you like. But one exists of raw, untrammelled natural genius, while the other is a skilfully constructed artifice, assembled by a highly paid team of writers, stylists and publicists.
Hmmm, see, once I would have agreed but Lennon/McCartney were highly paid too. I now dispute the whole issue of natural genius. They all worked really hard to make good songs. Goffin and King; Leiber and Stoller; Holland, Dozier, Holland; Neil Diamond etfc etc- talented people who worked really hard and did it mainly because they loved music, loved writing music, loved the creative process.
Indeed. Each approach has its good and bad side: the hitwriter-for-hire can slip into a kerchingtastic formulaic rut, while “untrammelled genius” yields the godawful White Album.
If one was looking for a Fabs-friendly distinction, one might say the hit factories were frequently bandwagon chasers while Beatlesband, by and large, built their own bandwagons..
I remember that podcast and I felt particularly uncomfortable as I’m pretty sure that it was my post about his book the 10 rules of rock n roll on the Word site that got Heppers interested in interviewing him . A quirky band of limited talent technically that somehow hangs together in some lovely pop music.
But as to your point, I’d be surprised if music didn’t matter quite a lot for every person that visits this blog. HP can of course defend himself perfectly well if so disposed but I gather he just couldn’t be bothered going over old ground.
I cant be bothered letting my hackles get raised by the occasional comments a la Dylan can’t sing, All blues/regae sounds the same , world music is tosh, Australian bands are tosh etc.
Some regae is Tosh.
And to conclude here are some of my favourite Go Betweens songs if you care to give them a spin
From later period album Tallulah – Bye Bye Pride
From late period 16 Lovers Lane – Clouds
From their best album IN MY OPINION. Had that big fat “Give em enough rope” production. IN MY OPINION.
Here they are live on Whistle Test from 86…announcer….”escaped from Australia.” Yeah thanks. Guess those hackles still rise.
For mid period album Liberty Belle – Head Full Of Steam
Actually, to tell you the truth I had the albums; I really liked Tallulah and loved Bye Bye Pride and Right Here off that album. But I was startled by how much I didn’t like the solo records and that made go back to the band’s albums and I found that not only did I not like them but actually found them unpleasant. Sometimes I have gone back to check to see if it was just a passing mood (sometimes we momentarily hate things we once enjoyed) but no, I couldn’t enjoy them at all.
I preferred Grant’s solo albums over Robert’s though, surprisingly, some of the more melodic songs are Roberts. Grant’s collaboration with Steve Kilby of the Church- Jack Frosty is nice.
The whole was greater than the sum of the parts. I dont think Forster has ever gotten over McLennan’s death.
I play them quite regularly and still think they are wonderful.
Chopping trees? – well we all have timber in our houses. I’ve never given it a moment’s thought.
Frost not Frosty
I recently bought the Go-Betweens DVD, “That Striped Sunlight Sound.”
One of the discs is just Grant and Robert sitting in Robert’s (I think) living-room, talking about the Go-Betweens and playing chronological selections from the band’s catalogue on two acoustic guitars. It’s charming and relaxed and a lot of fun. What superb songs they wrote.
Oh my goodness, Afterworders, I can feel a list coming on!
In fact, it’s the duco01 Favourite 10 Go-Betweens albums list (including solo albums)!
1. Horsebreaker Star
2. Oceans Apart
3. Spring Hill Fair
4. Watershed
5. Fireboy
6. Tallulah
7. Liberty Belle and the Black Diamond Express
8. 16, Lovers Lane
9. The Friends of Rachel Worth
10. Before Hollywood
Clouds is lovely despite that terrible line about chopping trees. And it’s there twice! But still… yep.
Saw them live once just before McLennan’s death and it was great. Did find Forster’s book and his presentation of it to be profoundly flawed and uninteresting.
I didn’t think it overly profound but at concerts, I’m reminded of one of his “rules” of rock’n’roll – after the third guitar, they are showing you their collection.
Thought provoking post, goodboy. It’s very easy to say “it’s my opinion, my taste, I don’t care what you think”. It’s very difficult, however, not to say “you wanker” when some fool questions your impeccable opinion or taste. Or when some deranged person claims he likes The Monkees better than The Beatles. But that’s just my opinion
Never knowingly heard anything by the Go Betweens, by the way.
“You Marigold wearer,” please…let’s keep it civilised.
Well, just for you Wrongity, there are 3 clips just above here.
You always care about the ones you love. A terrible over simplification, but it’s true. If someone attacks my wife I rise to her defence. I once phoned her line manager and gave him an effing and jeffing piece of my mind about the (patently unfair) way he was treating her, then hung up. He phoned back and grovelled for all he was worth. She got no shit from him after that. On reflection though, I’m sure I over-reacted.
I learned suddenly one day that musical preference is just that. For years I used to try to persuade people to like the same music as me, but you’re really just wasting your time. I once remarked somewhere that Grand Funk Rail Road were the worst band I had ever heard. Guess what, someone there was a huge fan and felt really, really hurt. I wished I had kept my trap shut. My thoughts now are to only comment on stuff I like and refrain from bashing type threads.
FWIW though I like the Go-Betweens and 16 Lovers Lane is my favourite LP of theirs.
I have been infuriated by threads in which someone has expressed amazement that they, who know so much about music, have never come across (say) The Doobie Brothers before. These days I try to breath deeply and move on*. I get a similar feeling when expressing admiration for someone’s ability to transpose a fiddle part to flute live and in the moment by saying “Well – I couldn’t do that!” – as if your ability to do something, or your opinion is the benchmark by which all others should be judged.
Having said that, you only really need The Go-Betweens albums with two L’s in the title.
*most of the time
Very good@skirky
Had to check the discography.
One tries… 🙂
Everyone has something that motors them along, don’t they? I know people who have a deep affection for insurance. A while ago I met a Dylan obsessive and it was fascinating to listen to him. The other two guys at the lunch clearly wanted to get back to safer ground (sport, property prices) but I kept bringing him back to music because his all round knowledge was as impressive as the many who post here,
My affection for Depeche Mode goes way beyond their toe-tapping tunes. I could tell that the Dylan-obsessive didn’t really think that my perspective on Depeche Mode was in any way equal to his re Dylan.. Not in the same league at all. It’s OK, this is normal but that attitude annoys me more than, say, not getting paid a promised bonus at work.
Yes, I think that is a very interesting double standard. Our obsessions are worthy and our expertise is useful while others are wasting their time. When I was much younger, I met a Billy Joel aficionado and given that I was unduly influenced by the US Rolling Stone I took the pop snob view that he was wasting his time. I didn’t, in that moment recognise that he was, in fact, a fellow traveller, that we had more in common than differences. I raise this partly because I now see in this habit that same essential problem that bedevils our world. Yet, yet, I do want to argue passionately, I don’t want to just let it go.
Excellent OP and wise words from Johnny C as well. It’s obvious why we care about music we love being dissed isn’t it? If you say to me ‘I don’t like’ The Beatles/Van/Dylan or whoever, or even, ‘ I don’t rate them, and here’s why’ that’s fine. It’s an opinion and you’re explaining it, whilst acknowledging that this is a subjective thing and OOAA. If you simply assert as an objective fact that said act which means a lot to me is shit then you are also saying my taste is shit – it is, by extension, a putdown. It’s bad manners, basically.
Question about that: why does it matter if someone else thinks you have shit taste in music? It’s not very polite, but all they’re really saying is “my taste is very different to yours”, no?
I’m quite happy to accept I have shit taste in music. It’s liberating because it means I don’t have to pretend to like things or seek any sort of affirmation. It also helps that it’s actually true in my case.
Don’t forget films. You’ve got shit taste in films too.
It’s totally true!
Oh maybe I’m just a delicate flower. And I don’t think you have shit taste Bingo, just different taste from me…
Sorry, BB, not trying to suggest you’re being soft. Just presenting a different perspective. And you’re far too kind about my tastes!
Hey maybe we all have shit taste, it’s just different kinds of shit! As I write I am listening to the Grateful Dead live at the Fillmore for the first time ever and somewhat uncharitably wondering if it will ever end… *ducks for cover*
But don’t you want to have good taste? You are surely being ironic?
Nah. I want to have my taste. Life’s too short.
I wonder what they argued about at the Globe in 1602.
Probably the Beatles.
Can’t remember where I read this, but if they open up Marlowe’s grave they’ll probably find a note saying, ‘It was mee all ye time, tee hee.’
On the contrary, if they open Marlowe’s grave they will find his handwritten lyricss and chord charts for Love Me Do, Like a Rolling Stone and Good Vibrations.