We attach a great deal of importance to loyalty. To be loyal to the people you love is, I think, a Very Good Way to Be. Most of us are hard-wired to be like this and we collectively value this kind of loyalty very, very highly.
This natural human trait is exploited by countless other agencies and I am wondering what other loyalties, outside of personal relationships, you consider to be non-negotiable and lifelong? In my case, I think I have quite a few:
Depeche Mode (plus about a dozen other musical acts, who you can probably guess)
The Afterword
Ipswich Town FC
The England football team and GB teams of any endeavour.
The BBC
Tea
Gentle daytime quiz shows
These were established well before adulthood. Attaching myself to them has at times been a grim, resentful experience where the hope is that one day there will be the ultimate reward of being right all along. Or the thought of a short but very emotional evacuation of the spiritual bowels when your lot actually come good and win that trophy, league or become something that is undeniably positive and have achieved permanent greatness.
I have noticed that this trait is dwindling. One of my brothers, who has lived in the USA for about 40 years recently said he supported the SF Giants “when they were winning”. He finally became a US citizen recently and I commented that he had already released himself from the shackles of an English upbringing just by making that statement so casually.
My own Hepworthian theory is that my generation was the last one that had a full-scale nationwide cultural upbringing grounded in the principles of Christianity. My tiny mind was blown last week when the Historian Tom Holland articulated the same kind of thing. When Christianity fell away, the gap was filled by other spiritually nutritious loyalties.
People under the age of, say, 40 – never had that expectation presented to them. This is why they are attracted to populism, short term highs, aspirational billionaires and well resourced sports teams that permanently win.
If you think I have a nice neat way to round this off, well, I haven’t.
Doesn’t explain why so many evangelical Christians support trump.
I think he uses similar methods of persuasion. Trust him, even though things seem bad, he knows what he’s doing. It’s all part of a plan and so on.
Sadly for Dishy Rishi, the “trust me” approach doesn’t seem to be working in the UK
Trust – who do ya?
I would never say “trust me” to anyone. It’s too much to ask.
Similarly, never trust anyone who says “Don’t you trust me?”
As he very rightly said himself, it’s just due to the “politics of envy”. People (losers) are just envious that he and his friends get to steal so much from the country’s coffers and they don’t.
I dare say you’re right BC that’s also why they send money to these TV evangelists it’s something to believe in , a better life, thing sorted out etc. Probably why sunak’s approach doesn’t.
Loyalty is, I think, a strength often unrecognised.
To add to the list of “Other” I will place Employment.
I have been at the same place of work for 37 years. I will add NOT in the same job. I’m just waiting 3 years for my gold plated pin badge and invite to lunch with the Chief Exec.
I hit that point at around 20 years service, when it was no longer worthwhile or viable to leave. Basically, I’m a lifer in the machine.
I have had several employers over my 40-odd years but I do need to be doing things I like doing and the fact that I need the money keeps me loyal to employment, generally.
I haven’t flipped jobs too often. But when I feel the loyalty isn’t reciprocated then I’m out. Nothing to do with the money. Apart from a disastrous afternoon at a chip shop when I was 16, I have never been fired.
Excellent, thought-provoking post, Black.
I’m with you for
Tea
Depeche Mode or equivalent singer or band. E,g, Jackie Leven, The Delines, The Necks, the Espen Eriksen Trio, Stile Antico
The BBC (even though I’m not sure they are completely trustworthy)
The Afterword. I have a gut loyalty but do wonder what goes on up there in Admin Towers. Threads that disappear. Bloggers banished to Beaver Island in Canada., etc.
To that I will add….
NPR and its Tiny Desk gigs
The four other guys in my book circle.
Biograf Reflexen in Kärrtorp: our non-profit community cinema.
The Roskilde Festival in Denmark. Even though it’s enormous, I like the values behind it and the fact that all profits go to charity,
One thing I’ve learnt to not have any loyalty to is my penis! I used to put my trust into the wisdom of its decisions. BAD idea!
Yes, that last example is a good one. Don’t let the tail wag the dog … something along those lines.
Non-negotiable and lifelong? OK…
The Beatles – my first musical love
The BBC – imperfect as they have become, or have been perceived of late, I would be bereft to lose it.
The Guardian – an oasis of sanity in a desperate world, they actually offer a plarform to all views despite their leanings.
The Labour Party – I never voted for anyone else in over 50 years.
Tottenham Hotspur – a family tradition, but their fortunes affect me in ways that are inexplicable.
Democracy – it’s imperfect, but the alternatives are far worse.
Beer
Spurs – Never mind …
(at the risk of invoking tribalism on this here bloggy forum thing)
I’m loyal to The Guardian in that it’s the online paper I look at first and most. I’ve always liked its format and some of its regular columns, but it does annoy me too. I think Jonathan Pie put it very well and typically funny stylee in one of his rants when he dissed it for its “Poor people make me sad. That’s why I meditate.” type of articles (but pointed out that “it’s all we’ve got”).
Talking of which, I’ve just read a most extraordinary sentence in today’s The Guardian, (whilst drinking my preferred yoghurt drink, Actimel). Talking about the evil scumbags who murdered Brianna Ghey it says:
Manchester crown court heard that after he was charged with Brianna’s murder, Ratcliffe stopped talking. He was diagnosed with “selective mutism”, speaking only to his mother.
I think there’s a chance I might be coming down with selective mutism myself. Should I be worried about it?
I’m saying it here and nowhere else: never mind the bumfluff beard, that boy looks like a girl. Not unusual at that age, but significant in this case.
PS. “selective mutism” is no more real than “selective deafness”. I think next time Mrs M asks me to do something around the house I’ll have selective paraplegia.
“Selective deafness” – I get accused of that sometimes, when in fact the opposite (sort of) is true: I very, very, very often pretend I’ve heard rather than ask for people to repeat themselves. All the time. Nod and smile and vaguely hope that was all that was required of me. I bet Mrs Mooche does the same.
I just asked her if she does that and she said, “Oh yes, it’s about ten past nine”
The most over-valued loyalty is family loyalty.
In an East London pub about five years ago, I overheard an octogenarian say that their grandson was a “good lad really”. Said grandson had, so I went on to discover, recently gone into a pub and glassed someone in the face.
At a previous job, I was being so appallingly treated that I said to my manager “What would you think if your child was being treated in this way”, and only then did anything seem to sink in and get done.
I think almost all people are fiercely loyal to their own point of view. I’ve noticed that most sentences typed upon the internet have the pronoun “I” beginning them.
Interesting thread idea, Black. I’m very, very “brand loyal”. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it, as Thomas Andrews probably said. Why waste time, energy or money considering alternative products by rival brands? It’s admittedly a loyalty fuelled by laziness, apathy and contentment. From make of car to morning yoghurt drink I will probably remain brand loyal to certain products till I die, at which point, by rights, I should be somehow rewarded for my loyalty. (So, win-win.)
I’ve been stabbed in the back by people I’ve trusted on more than one occasion and yet I cannot find it in myself to act towards friends with anything other than loyalty. It’s tempting to think of myself as a silly old fool but it’s not an age thing, I’ve always expected too much from some of the people who have been however temporarily life adjacent to me…so…friends despite the occasional muck & bullets.
The memory of lost loved ones. Ever faithful, ever sure.
Jazz. In a direct way this will be forever entwined with my love for my Dad (see above).
Arches 300gsm cold pressed watercolour paper and my fifty year old mechanical pencil.
A winning hand in five card stud.
Edit. Not too much of the “other” so I’ll chuck in my wavering attachment to my old Dali floorstanders. I can’t afford to replace them or dispose of them so I might as well stay loyal to the hulking brutes.
I recently changed from Mr Muscle Shower Shine to the much cheaper Astonish equivalent. This is after years of saying no other spray’n’go product would do.
I’ve always been more flexible about the tonic, though.
Aside from repeated use of the words “Bang and the dirt is gone!”,
what did Barry Scott do to lose your trust, M?
That’s Cillit, not Mr Muscle. The City and United of domestic cleaning products right there.
I’m loyal to people, and pretty unwaveringly so. I’ve had the same best friends for 30+ years and I’d bleed my own blood to help them, or my kids, or my partner, or my parents. But also I think part of that loyalty is about stupidity and good times and great swathes of quantity time. The right people are never a bad investment.
I’m not loyal to media companies, political parties, sports clubs or bands, and honestly I don’t get why anyone would be. What if [political party] deviates massively from things I consider ethically important – which they do all the time? What if a favoured band (cough Radiohead cough) makes a succession of tedious records? Why would they continue to be my team? Fuck em. You want my loyalty, represent my values / make records I enjoy. We’re not friends. Parasocial relationships are for kids.
Though actually, institutions which represent important ideas get some loyalty. Parliament. The courts. The Royal Maritime Museum. Le Creuset. The C of E. The Royal Opera House. The Guardian? lol, not so much.
Echoing your second paragraph.
Yes to football club, certain musicians and writers, and a handful of media companies (mainly the BBC and Guardian) though none of these are unconditional- it’s just I’ll give them more of the Ned fit of the doubt than I will others. And then there are places – particular towns or cities or even countries that for one reason or another mean something to me. Ireland, Spain, Liverpool amongst them.
I feel bound to say that “Ned fit of the doubt” sounds like a grimy short story about an Aberdonian detective.
Down here mediawise it’s the ABC that get the trust – a good deal of it is because you look at the people who call for its privatising/defunding, and wonder if you’d ever want to be associated with those people in any other facet of living. Their world isn’t one I’d want to live in.
And agreeing with Uncle Mick further down, the dentist (for about 35 years; my sister was one of his nurses, and corralled the whole family to sign on with him)…in fact if you come across any kind of professional, be it doctor, plumber, sparkie, car mechanic or otherwise (the fellow who owns our local hardware store is worth his weight in gold), if you can find a decent one grab ’em with both hands and hang on.
Excellent point about the ABC, Sniffity. Same with the BBC and Guardian – the poor quality of their enemies. My loyalty to the Labour Party is being severely tested at the moment, but when you look at the people claiming that a Starmer victory would mean an immediate descent into Communistic chaos…
My hairdresser, Ive been going to her for about 40 years, the first time i went in with a picture of Bruce Foxton and asked for something similar. No I get asked, ” the usual” .We invited her for Christmas dinner last year!
My Dentist. I had been going to my dentist for about thirty years. Easygoing, dry sense of humour, no unnecessary work . He retired last year and the new bods saw my mouth as a cash cow. Swift exit to a new and more caring dentist.`
Started with Bruce and now it’s Rick…?
Nope, still Bruce!!!!
Fair play – not at all jealous…
Loads of things.
Family obvs, but friends certainly. I have loads of long term friends; loyalty repays with loyalty.
The many festivals, sessions, organisations that allow me to enjoy all my singing and dancing. Volunteering and constant support allows them to keep going, which is wonderful.
My occupation. My industry. My union.
Cheshire. My particular corner of the county, almost down to that hedge at the top of the lane. I frame my world geographically; places matter to me.
Good thread
Richard Thompson
Lucinda Williams
Elvis Costello although has tested my patience once or twice
Elmore Leonard
Willy Vlautin
Birmingham City fc
Bacon sandwiches
Tea
San Pellegrino sparkling water ( new in the charts)
Re: San Pellegrino
Oh yes – that’s the King of sparkling waters!
I’m quite keen on their slim tins of pop: lemon, blood orange, pomegranate & orange, even the grapefruit. Not overly sweetened and low on the cals, rather than buckets of aspartame.
What does loyalty actually mean?
I’m fairly confident I’d be described by most people who know me as an excessively loyal person. I certainly feel a lot of duty to the people I care about: probably sometimes more than is helpful.
But I’ve also been in situations that have exposed the limits of loyalties I would otherwise have considered to be absolute. When your best mate tells you he’s cheating on his wife, what does loyalty look like then? What about when some of the people you love best are consistently behaving in a properly terrible fashion, with no end in sight?
Sometimes loyalty requires a painful truth. A “you’re being a fucking idiot and you need to sort it out”. Sometimes it even requires walking away for a bit. Or saying “you’re going down a path I can’t follow, but I’ll be here when you come back”. Is that still loyalty? What if the other person thinks it isn’t?
All the situations I’m talking about above have ultimately worked out for the best, and I’m still incredibly close to all the people involved. But they all taught me that in the moments where loyalty really matters it can become quite difficult to pin down. In fact, sometimes you don’t feel like you’re being very loyal at all.
So I wouldn’t say I’m loyal. I’d say I love the people I love an enormous amount, and that will never, ever go away. Because that love – in a pinch – is the torch that will guide you through long after loyalty as a concept has had its usefulness exhausted.
That’s people. As to the rest of it – football, brands, musicians, etc – it’s all totally conditional. A recurring consumer choice isn’t a loyalty. Football maybe comes closest, but there’s a ton of things Arsenal could do which would mean I’d never darken their door again.
Oh, and for my money no one should be loyal to a newspaper. It’s a bad idea all round.
I am loyal to some people. I do wonder why in some cases, out of habit to a degree. Abstinence helps re-kindle my sense of what I get out of it. A certain distance helps. I don’t know that I think of it as loyalty but I suppose it is.
I have loyalty to some of those I work with because they really are special people and that’s repaid to me. Such a sense of appreciation isn’t so common I am sure.
Loyalty to musicians? No I’d say not. They let you down with their awful behaviour and self involvement. They think they can do no wrong and can do an opera or an paint great art as well as make fantastic music. They tend to fail at the latter as time passes. I don’t believe in completism. I just believe in me, whatsername and me. OK not all of them but often the big sacred cows of the 60s and 70s. Even a record you can go off.
I should say I have a loyalty to certain things that are dependably enjoyable, like the Greek islands, certain food and drink. A gin and tonic or a negroni. Done right. I find Julian Barnes fiction pretty reliable, as is Haruki Marukami. Some are better than others but I know I will enjoy them. I would say I have some loyalty to where I live, which is Sweden, since there is much to commend it even if some of the good things are being eroded. I mean I cheer on the cross-country skiers against the Norwegians, but the Norwegians are easy to take against. Proper British tea definitely has my support. God save Donald Duck, vaudeville and variety.
Looking again at this thread I realise now I completely overlooked the opportunity to draw attention to (and hopefully garner admiration for) my morality and intellect. I should therefore like to add that I am extremely loyal to people who deserve it, on account of my extremely good nature, whereas I am not in the slightest bit loyal to people and things that don’t deserve it, due, I believe, to my intellectual superiority over them. So, I hope that gives you an idea of who I am, that you may admire my morality and intellect. But just to be clear: it’s my moral integrity and intellectual superiority you should be admiring.
I’ve enjoyed discussing my attitudes to loyalty. Perhaps we could do generosity next?
Loyalty doesn’t require a high intellect though. Quite the reverse, I’d say. If you don’t know any better you might, say, continue to support a government that saw a global pandemic as an opportunity to make money for their friends and had parties while telling everyone else not to. A ridiculous example I know.
Seeking attention often indicates a certain mental enfeeblement as well. Gary is showing certain Trumpian qualities in fact.
Loyalty – it’s a feudal (somewhat transactional) concept at heart, isn’t it? I pledge allegiance to the monarch and he/she will protect me/give me land/allow me to keep serfs at the same time as demanding tax and/or the use of my militia in time of war.
I see loyalty as being like an old friend you seldom see, but then never lets you down. Sometimes you get a bit sick of them, and give em a miss for a while, only for them to pop back into your life and delight you. I felt that today when the thee original pearls of Oysterband put out the fact they are going to call it a day. After, of course, a long tour. Having seen them so many times over the years, I frequently say no more. And then beak that decision, with enjoyable results. I had felt Shrewsbury, last summer, to be the real that’s it, no more moment.
Now I want tickets!
Loyalty is never unconditional, for a sensible person.
Except possibly blood loyalty to one’s own family members.
The Borgia family would probably beg to differ
That’s why I added a “possibly” into that sentence.
Notable that no mention here of monarchy and very little of country.
I suspect that we may not be a representative sample.
Hello, can… Hello, can anybody hear me? Have I ceased to exist? Have I suddenly become invisible? Cheshire, Cheshire, Cheshire, can you see me?
Cheshire: No.
salwarpe: Oh, good. Well, I’ll go and lie down then. No, I won’t; I’ll go and guess some hits Jon the jazz jet thread.