I was at Anfield the last time Liverpool won the old Football League in 1990.
A dreadful place to get away from at the best of times, I’d been standing in a queue a mile long for the bus back to Lime Street when four fans got in a taxi, I saw my chance and bundled in after them. Nice lads, chatted about the game, paid my contribution (a pound) at the station, got the earlier train back south… but the thing I remember most about that taxi journey is how matter-of-fact winning the League seemed to be for them – it felt like we were all going home after a Leyton Orient-Southend United match, not a game that had just decided the League.
Little did any of us know that Liverpool would not win the League again for three decades.
At exactly the same time, under Alex Ferguson, Manchester United got their mojo back. The biggest football club in the world, for that is what they are, like it or not, suddenly had a League position to prove it.
The early 1990s really only saw Arsenal and (briefly) Blackburn Rovers as their rivals in the newly monikered Premier League, and when those teams waned, Manchester United were still there to pick up the silverware… but sometime in the 1990s, greed got the better of them.
The details are lost in history, if you want to elaborate, please do, but instead of the (genuine) Champions, and/or last year’s winners of the European Cup, representing the country in the premier European tournament, the team in second place, and then third place, and then fourth place also got the gig.
Next year (2022-23) a team that finished 22 points – that’s 7 wins and a draw, and they only play 38 games – behind the Champions might win the “Champions” League… but it’s Tottenham, and I seriously wouldn’t put money on it if I were you!
Here’s the thing… Manchester United were holding all the cards 30 years ago… for sure, they weren’t guaranteed European Cup football every year, but they could reasonably have expected to compete in the tournament every other season.
Instead, they hedged their bets, and maximized their chances of participating in the event… I certainly don’t remember too many dissenting voice emanating from Old Trafford when the criteria for entry was expanded…
… and that was Liverpool’s chance.
Out of nowhere, they sure as damn it weren’t anywhere winning the League, Liverpool won the “Champions” League in 2005, thus equaling the amount (one) the far-more-successful Manchester United had managed at that time since the Premier League had begun.
And tonight – I haven’t seen a European Cup Final since about 1987, I’ll be watching the Rugby League – Liverpool may beat Manchester United’s haul of “Champions” Leagues since 1992.
Absolutely hilarious.
So, if you’re a Manchester United fan still reeling from this season, bear in mind that if the biggest club in the world (that’s you) had made a stand against this rampant greed 25 years ago, you’d probably be playing Real Madrid tonight… and Liverpool’s European Cup haul would still number “four.”
Sorry – your point?
It’s obvious.
If Manchester United had taken the moral high ground by insisting entry into the tournament went solely to the Champions, Liverpool would not have won their last two “Champions” League finals, because they wouldn’t have been in it.
I know for a fact that I’m not going to shoot a good score on the golf course today.
How?
Because I’ve got a dreadful slice?
Because I can’t putt for toffee?
No, because I’m not playing golf today!
Got to be in it, to win it.
Here’s another thought… if Liverpool never qualify for the European Cup, would Klopp have gone there?
Oh dear.
Oh, right! What you’re doing is going back into the past, and saying if such-and-such a thing didn’t happen, but this other thing did – what would the present day be like? Sort of like, if Manchester United hadn’t boarded Flight 609 back in 1958, what would the team be like today?
Fascinating. Thanks for opening up the debate!
Why could Man U “reasonably expect to compete for the European Cup every other season” before its change of format to the Champions League?
It certainly wasn’t because they had (and still. have) more money than everyone else.
A quick look at the scant returns they’ve received on the hugely expensive fees and wages they’ve pissed up the wall on players since SAF left disproves that canard.
Nor is it entirely down to form/entitlement
After their 1990 Championship, it would be another 11 years before Liverpool got back into the European Cup (which had started adding teams from 1999 onwards)
No great fan of Man U, but like apples, football clubs are also subject to Newton’s law of gravity
How many Premier Leagues (1992-2013) did Man. U. win under Ferguson.
Was it 11? Something like that.
That’s every other year.
Yes, but as good a manager as SAF was, he wasn’t gifted with the ability to see into the future.
On the basis of one title, you’re claiming that the club “could reasonably expect” to play I the old European Cup every other year.
To paraphrase the famous expression, “if you want to make God laugh, tell him your reasonable expectations”.
Do you think that Man U on their own made the decision to expand the format of the European cup competition?
Obviously not. The Athletic this week had a very good article on the genesis of the CL and the Italian clubs and – bizarrely- Scotland – were as involved in the creation of the entry and group stage system as MU
I’m from Liverpool but grew up as a Manchester United fan due to a United supporting uncle taking me to see them back in the glorious 60’s (thanxs Ray). However l think it should be a knock out tournament for champions only, so part of what makes it hard to win is winning the league first.
I’ve never watched a Liverpool final and won’t be starting today, but they deserved the wins in the 70’s because they had won the league first, and yes, l’m aware United weren’t champions when they won it in 1999, and they may never win it again in my lifetime the way things are at the moment.
Only champions in the Champions League means no treble for Manchester United. They are exceedingly proud of that, so, I expect, would take the “collateral damage” of rivals picking up some extra trophies..
@dreramdaze`s thread is typical of Liverpool fans.
They simply cannot get rid of the chip they have on either shoilder when it comes to Manchester United. Even when Manchester United were/are shit 1969-1990/2013 (yes they were still shit when they last won the Premier League, I know I was there home & away. Throughout all those years the `self proclaimed greatest fans in the world` (from now SPGFITW) even though they had a magnificent footballing side 1972-1989/2017-2022 (although this latter day side have won only one Premier League), the `SPGFITW` have always had to have a go at Manchester United. For example this thread, `kin hell enjoy yourselves you `SPGFITW`.
My best mate is a Liverpool fan, one of the decent ones, he`s in Paris today, ticket from Liverpool FC (£125) and I`ve wished him all the best.
Even though I`m a Manchester United fan I cheered every Liverpool*/British football team whenever they played in Europe.
*I stopped suppoerting Liverpool in Europe in 1991 for reasons I`m going into here.
Enjoy tonight @deramdaze.
🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 – 🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
There isn’t really a Liverpool/Man U rivalry over the European Cup/Champions League because Liverpool’s record is superior by some distance. If you then say “since the Premier League started” then yes, the gap is narrowed, but no one does that.
Winning the Champions League is harder than the old format because it’s a much longer process. You have to go through at least one group stage to get to the knockout matches and in that process you are almost guaranteed to come up against a team like Real Madrid, Juventus, Ajax, Bayern or Barcelona. When Liverpool won the tournament in 1978 they only faced 4 teams; Dynamo Dresden, Benfica, Borussia M and Brugge.
But you had to win the league first
Yes and a glamorous European fixture was really rare. Like it or not, UEFA wanted an extended competition with more games involving the most popular clubs.
Ruud Gullit, fairly useful in footballing matters was asked decades ago in a TV interview
‘But Ruud, what if?…’
His reply was ‘In the Netherlands we say, ‘If my Grandma had a dick, she’d be my Grandpa’’ effectively ending the discussion.
Same principle applies to the OP.
I prefer Gino D’Acampo’s “If my Grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike.”
Certainly less likely to cause Elton Wellsby to have an aneurysm live on air, back in the studio!
His real name was Jemmie Wellsby, he was from Haydock and played darts for the same pub team as myself, The Huntsman.
He was as shyte at darts as he was at being a TV presenter but as he always retorted with a smile, “hey, look at the money they pay me”, he was a good lad Jemmie.
Deram has a point. There I’ve said it. It is after all the “Champions League” . But rules are rules and everyone went along with it. Money over glory in football?
I don’t care either way really, the tournament is generally predictable and dull until the knock outs. City’s continued failure makes me smile despite my complete adoration of Kevin de Bruyne.
Personally I would prefer the old European Cup format where next season City could be drawn against Real Madrid in a first round knock out but its like wishing for white dog shit and Spangles. Good luck to both teams it will be a great spectacle.
Those days are gone now, and in the past they must remain.
You’ll be wanting a ban on foreign players next.
And fans who come from the city/town.
Nice idea, but it is moneyball now. And part of the reason is because it is jolly good entertainment and we pay (handsomely) for it.
Perhaps we should call it the European Cup again, rather than Champion’s league. But things change and move on.
the founders of the Football League were; Accrington, Aston Villa, Blackburn Rovers, Bolton Wanderers, Burnley, Derby County, Everton, Notts County, Preston North End, Stoke, West Bromwich Albion and Wolverhampton Wanderers.
The only one of them to win the Premier League is Blackburn. The last one to win the Football League was Everton. Will their time come again? Maybe.
Just enjoy it.
Its only a game.
Even under the old knockout format Man City would not draw Real Madrid in the first round because the top teams would be seeded.
Was there always seeding? When Forest (English champions) were drawn against Liverpool (European champions) in the first round in 1978, which was seeded?
In 1979 it was an open competition, like cup tournaments are supposed to be.
None of this keeping the richest apart til the final stages. I mean,who wants an upset when you can have the same 16 clubs battling against each other. This 8s what the sponsors want
I think all the above is a major reason why I prefer supporting a small club with minimal expectations of success. The Champions League final may as well be an exhibition match on another planet, and whilst our lows are perfectly normal and expected each season, the occasional highs are savoured more and for longer.
My mate is a Swindon fan. Lost in the playoffs when should have won. But at least they will be playing Bradford next season, so he can see them easily.
It is also football.
“Oh dear, we’ve won the Champions League but not the Premier League” has got to be Peak First World Problems.
@Slug
Small cub…
Minimal expectations of success…
You’re a Man U supporter then
#footie bantz.
No.
I’m a Cov City supporter, S, bantz is all we got….
This is a game I’d love to watch but cannot find it on the usual channels? EUFA have invited me to sign up to their web content. Do I have to?
When it eventually starts after the delays, there is a free live stream of the game on the BT Sport YouTube channel.
Thank you kindly Mr Slug, enjoy the virtual pint (with another one in for you later). Looks pretty good on an iMac.
If the Champions League were to revert to Champions only then I think it’s safe to assume that a European Super League would be set up pronto. In all likelihood that will happen anyway, once they finally figure out a way of handling relegation.
Well, I’ve no idea who the BT Sport punters are but the throaty one “Sometimes you’ve just got to whip round the back”. Hurr.
Poor Liverpool but what a Real Madrid team – especially the goalie.
Ah well, no quadruple this year. Still, it’s an achievement of sorts to play three finals ( and win two !) without scoring a goal.
Mainly (yesterday) because of an incredible performance by Courtois, was something like 23 goal attempts to 4, one of those days
Various loan deals following his implosion in the 2018 forerunner of last night’s match having not worked out, the wretched Loris Karius is amazingly still on Liverpools books.
Be interesting to see if he can find a club when his contract runs out at the end of the season.
I greatly disappointed last night
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I was hoping for more goals from The Galacticos.
There was…disallowed for the most freakishly bizarre reason. If two defenders are diving in with legs flailing, they are making a deliberate play for the ball, are they not?
Yes, what a bizarre reason to disallow the goal. The laws of football have been meddled with to the point where you’re left perplexed by the absence of common sense (the Middlesbrough FA Cup goal v Man Utd was another one).
I think it’s one of those ones where if the ref had given the goal, VAR wouldn’t have overturned it, and obviously vice versa.
Hate to be a pedant but the ‘galacticos’ term referred to a certain era, which has now passed. It’s like calling the current United team ‘the class of 92’ or ‘the Busby babes’.
Let’s face it, the Champions League is a much more enjoyable format than it would be if only the Champions of each division were entered. Not every form of progress is bad.
I was disappointed on Saturday, but Real Madrid took their chance (took two of them if we’re honest) and Liverpool didn’t. Liverpool have definitely lost a bit of a spark in recent weeks, which is perhaps understandable due to the sheer volume of games.
Yes. And Salah has not been the same player since African Nations Cup/ World Cup qualifying disappointment.