Raymond on age-ism, blame and shame.
Given the amount of propaganda spewed out in the EU referendum campaign, it is hardly surprising that some folk reacted to the result in a way that would more appropriate to, say, an invasion of the earth by hostile aliens. Within our increasingly large over-reaction community, it would appear that losing an election is not something that is considered to be a legitimate part of the democratic process.
(read more in comments)
On the morning after the vote –admittedly a difficult time for any losing side- I listened to interviews with Anna Soubry, Caroline Lucas and Tim Farron which would have been quite funny, but only if they had they been scripted as comedic parodies designed to illustrate the attitude of the political class towards the electorate. Each interview was marked by a complete absence of grace, seasoned with a toxic sprinkling of weapons-grade disdain.
Ms Soubry, a Tory junior minister who has clearly been promoted beyond her abilities, expressed her sheer ‘horror’ at the result, claiming that it was one of the ‘worst days’ in her life. She talked of voters being ‘horrid’ to her when she had been out campaigning in the racist swamplands of the East Midlands (where I understand that lynch mobs still roam the countryside) and claimed that many Leave voters had probably never encountered an immigrant.
Caroline Lucas of the Greens was ‘devastated’ that her vision of ‘a generous and outward looking country’ committed to ‘making the world a better place’ had been rejected by the electorate. By inference, the Leave side must have been committed to establishing a mean-spirited, inward looking country, determined to make things worse for everyone. Ms Lucas said that we had to ‘find ways to heal our broken democracy’, evidently oblivious to the fact that we had just participated in the most extraordinary democratic exercise. If the result had gone the other way, my guess would be that Ms Lucas wouldn’t have been up for too much healing with the beaten Leave side. Call it a hunch.
Tim Farron, leader of the Lib-Dems, resorted shamefully to blatant age-ism, claiming that young voters had been ‘betrayed’ by the older electorate. In assuming that all young people had voted Remain, perhaps he had concluded that they would regard the youth unemployment rates across the continent as just a feature of the system. I wonder if anyone has asked the unemployed kids in Spain, Greece and Italy how the EU is working out for them? The corollary of Mr Farron’s line of thinking is that some votes should be worth more than others. Perhaps he’d favour the introduction of a sliding scale for elections. I’d suggest something like this:
Age group 18 – 30: two votes per person.
Age group 31 – 45: three votes per person.
Age group 46 -70: one vote per person.
Age group 70 and above: These votes could be lumped together. Maybe twenty or thirty of them from like, a nursing home or whatever, could get one vote to represent the views of their group.
Perhaps it hasn’t occurred to Mr Farron that society is a covenant between those currently living, those who lived before us and those who are yet to be born. The voter in her mid-80s has the same rights as the voter in her teens. That woman in her 80s helped shape the country we now live in, being part of the generation that made the sacrifices necessary to create the free and prosperous world we are lucky enough to inhabit. She will have worked, paid taxes, raised children and grandchildren and –something that ageists don’t seem to understand- she will have thought about the world she wants her children and grandchildren to inherit. Being in her twilight years does not mean that she has no stake in our future, so shame on anyone who is prepared to dismiss her opinion on the basis of age; shame on anyone who is willing to exploit generational differences to bolster their grubby political arguments.
Rather than look down their nose at people, perhaps professional politicians should have a think about why there was such an anti-establishment vote. There are many reasons why Leave prevailed (personally, I think Eddie Izzard’s hectoring drag act on Question Time might just have tipped the scales), but it is clear that Labour’s abandonment of its core vote was a significant factor. Labour’s old working class voters helped deliver this result and they delivered it because their perception is that ‘progressive’ politics has -for some time- held them in contempt, regarding them as stupid, dangerous, racist and probably a bit smelly, certainly not to be trusted on anything important.
All of the reactive guff about being ‘ashamed’ of the result illustrates, among other things, a failure to understand that in a democratic system, the taxi-driver really does have the same voting rights as the college lecturer. Like a maiden aunt in some Victorian melodrama getting an attack of the vapours at the sight of a swarthy, uncouth gardener, the people who get all giddy and upset about politics ‘red in tooth and claw’ really need to get over themselves. If you can’t accept that people who don’t see the world the way that you see it can ‘care’ every bit as much as you, then you’ve got a problem; if you believe that someone who doesn’t agree with you is simply ‘misinformed’ by their sources (in a way that you evidently don’t think you have been misinformed by your no-doubt-impeccable sources), then you’ve got a problem.
When you pitch your tent on the moral high ground, you’ll invariably look down on other people, but if you’re inclined to condemn millions of voters as racists, idiots or selfish old fools, then there is something you really ought to know.
That ‘shame’ you feel about the electorate?
It’s your problem, not theirs.
• Farage, Hannan, Johnson, IDS – all lied
• Significant portions of the press are owned by people spitting out racist front pages day after day
• 16-17 year olds who were perfectly mature enough to cope with #indyref were locked out of a decision about their future
• there have been racist incidents all over the streets of England since Thurs
• the Tories are supported by less than 25% of people on the electoral register, the mad-bastard, mendacious xenophobe wing of the Tories by even fewer…
if you’re still talking about the legitimacy of the democratic process after all that, you’re being taken for a mug
Have a very large ‘UP’.
A bloke walked past my house yesterday afternoon shouting “f*****g pakis, I f*****g hate ’em, why don’t they f*** off back to their own f*****g country?”. Unrelated to the leave victory? I doubt it.
Is Pakistan in the EU now? Sounds like he’s a bit mixed up…
According to Johnson and Gove, they’re scheduled to join next year.
I don’t disagree with much of what you say here. That said, where I live a significant number of people appear to have voted on the basis that they don’t like immigrants. In particular they don’t like Muslims. ( Not that they encounter many of either group). And yes, this does mean that I am less well deposed towards them than if we were simply disagreeing on economic tactics.
Disposed, not deposed
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
Well considered piece of writing, Raymond. I like the definition of the moral high ground as being the last resort of the beleaguered professional. Surely 48% is enough to have some opinion and influence in how the 52% steer us? Blimey, Jorrox didn’t give up just because the Scottish referendum lost on a similar margin. We may have to be out of the EEC by 2018, but uncertain if giving in to the LCD should be the only option, themselves only a minority of the out campaign, just the most widely commented upon and reported. Geacher has made a reasoned defence of his reasons on the iceberg (FB) which is neither racist nor xenophobic. And given we are said, were said once to be a nation of shopkeepers, who is to say there isn’t more to the argument than the media portrayal of kicking out foreigners?
Yes, I’m all for recognising that we are, more or less, split 50-50 on this issue. The triumphalists on the Leave side should be sensitive to that, but triumphalists -by their nature- tend not to do ‘sensitivity’.
But the idea of ignoring the vote and re-running the referendum (as many are now suggesting we do) is utterly repugnant.
I voted Remain, and agree with you about the idea of a re-run.
Amusingly, however:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683410/EXCLUSIVE-The-VOTE-LEAVE-backer-whose-petition-could-inadvertently-derail-the-Brexit
Entertaining polemical rhetoric, but the asserted emphasis on feelings of “shame” is a straw-man.
“the asserted emphasis on feelings of “shame” is a straw-man”.
Not according to the evidence of my facebook feed. We must move in different circles 😉
I wouldn’t touch FarceBerk with a bargepole. Apols to @bargepole, it’s just a turn of phrase.
I’m sad about the result and I think there’s no problem with that, plus I feel that some of the leavers voted on a false premise (£350m to the NHS, a massive reduction in immigration and a few other things) but that is democracy and remain didn’t do enough to counter these statements.
Perhaps the only good thing is that the Labour party may finally wake up, choose a new leader and be a proper opposition. But I’m not holding my breath.
“By inference, the Leave side must have been committed to establishing a mean-spirited, inward looking country, determined to make things worse for everyone. ”
Well there is something in that.
The older Leavers that I have spoken to voted on the basis that they remember a time before the EU, when it was perfectly possible to trade/work/travel in Europe.
It was possible, but certainly not as easy. When I first moved abroad I had to annually renew work and residency permits and have health insurance. My life was made easier and cheaper by the EU doing away with all that shite. Now I’m probably going to request Italian citizenship in order to avoid it.
Damn, I wish you’d been there when I had the conversation.
They are correct,but only up to a point. I susoect that we will find out that it rather depends how much the other country wants you and/or what you have to offer.
Bloody Hell, Poppy, how old were they? Time was a gentleman could train to the Carpathians for a spot of hill walking and trout fishing with no need of a British Passport as such a thing did not exist. All one needed was a proud demeanour, a stout pair of walking boots, a tweed jacket and an astonishing resemblance to the somewhat dissolute monarch of a small European kingdom.
They’re in their late seventies.
I’m a fairly impressionable type so I came away from the conversation feeling more optimistic about Leave.
I should add that I then went online and returned to feeling it was the wrong thing to do.
You don’t actually have to read Bargepole’s prog reviews…
I have a similar experience. “They remember what it was like before the EU and want to give their children that experience”. Fair enough – if the referendum had also been about whether to build a massive time machine and take me back to when I was twelve I probably would have signed up too, but the world’s moved on since then.
Thing is, life was shit in 1972 before we joined the EU. Why do the oldies want the country to go back to those days? They were dreadful (apart from Rock music being at its peak, of course).
If the same proportion of youngsters as oldsters actually got off their backsides and went to the polling station to vote, Remain would have won.
Most of my children’s friends are devastated by the result but only about half actually voted.
Exactly. All very well to that 75% of 18-25 year olds voted to remain, but not enough of that generation bothered to vote.
Going back to Raymond’s OP, whilst accepting the thrust of some of his broader points, I can also see why some of my son’s generation are frustrated. As I alluded to in another thread, one of his friend’s reported that his grandfather voted Out because he thought there were too many Muslims in the town.
Probably people in my family too. Some of them repost those nice messages from Britain First on Facebook. Things like “help an old lady across the road because it’s the British thing to do” with a photo of the Union Jack and a bulldog. They can’t be bothered to look up who Britain First are or what they stand for. In much the same way that they believe the lies about £350m a day going back into the NHS from people who want to privatise the NHS.
My daughter teaches teenagers in Liverpool. One of them said he was glad we were leaving so we could get rid of the immigrants. He then said his family wanted to go and live in America. When she pointed out he would then become an immigrant he was offended. Duh.
Teenagers are stupid.
There, I’ve said it.
I was out in central London yesterday and if the march of people that I came across is anything to go by then it was mainly young people who voted leave.
It was a sight to behold, I’m still breathless with excitement over what I saw.
There were literally thousands of young people marching; black, white, Asian, gay, straight and even one or two I was sure of, who joined hands in unity and celebration at the result.
Democracy in action that put a lie to the nonsense spouted about Leave voters by the Remain camp about the type of older, ignorant and out of touch person that voted Leave
They were wearing their ‘I’m Out!’, ‘Out and Proud’ and ‘I’m out, and so is my boyfriend’ T shirts, whilst blowing whistles, dancing along to the latest music and waving colourful flags.
I think we are in safe hands when you get that kind of spontaneous reaction from young people.
I’m out. And so is my wife!
Your husband, you mean 😉
I blame Tony Blair. How old is he?
This is very good (don’t worry that it’s the Spectator) – sums up a lot of what I feel but expresses it better than I could and backs it with stats too – in summary, it’s complicated.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/brexit-political-awakening-young-people/
“There has never been a more blunt, painful and glorious expression of how democracy works”.
That’s “works” as in functions, rather than “produces the best outcome on balance for all concerned when applied as a simple majority to a complex multidimensional question”. Shame Dumbo Dave didn’t understand the distinction.
But would you be saying that if the vote had gone the other way?
No, but I’d button my lip, because I’d still think the analysis was correct. I’m pee’d off right now with all the morons who obviously didn’t think for more than 30 seconds before voting who now smugly chirrup, “That’s democracy.” like parrots. Wankers.
As I have pointed out to them, it’s not what we use to run the DK*. We use Parliamentary democracy. We do so for a bloody good reason. We only veer from that course at our peril. Thanks to Dumbo Dave the over-privileged twat from Oxfordshire, we put possibly the most complex important political question possible to the test by a simple majority decision.
FFS. I mean F F S.
*DK – disUnited Kingdom. Cheers Dave, you knob-head.
*still fuming*
*considering moving to another country – really*
I remember raging at Thatch winning, wanting to take the vote from the working class Tories and hating the oldies who liked her. I only spoke to people like myself, so couldn’t imagine how there could be a different perspective. Ver kidz can use IT brilliantly when they need to, but failed to register to vote, or actually make it happen. Maybe they will be better at this in the future. One good thing out of all this, of course; it might increase participatory democracy, and undermines the idea “they are all as bad as each other so it is pointless voting”. Also, Russell brand kept his trap shut (as far as I am aware).
But Eddie Izzard and Bob Geldof didn’t. Worth 3 -5 points to Brexit between them?
Both certainly did more harm than good to their cause.
This was a referendum where every vote counted.
General Elections are entirely different. Millions of wasted, meaningless votes. If you live in a safe Labour or Conservative seat – your vote for anyone else might as well not exist. It’s interesting statistically (ooh the majority is a bit reduced…) but it doesn’t mean a thing.
I reckon Remain might have bagged it without all their idiot celeb endorsements. The world is a bit tired of people who were famous at the turn of the century, are still doing very well, and I suspect workign class people are more interested in more recent celebs than those in David Cameron’s address book. It was very badly judged, and the eventual book on the decision making behind the scenes will be fascinating, as there were so many daft ideas: for example, how many propaganda pamphlets were sent back to CCO, freepost?
Noel Gallagher for PM!
“Do I think we should leave? I don’t think we should be given a vote,” he said.
“I see politicians on TV every night telling us that this is a fucking momentous decision that could fucking change Britain forever and blah, blah, blah. It’s like, okay, why don’t you fucking do what we pay you to do which is run the fucking country and make your fucking mind up? What are you asking the people for? 99 percent of the people are thick as pig shit.”
“They [politicians] didn’t fucking ask us for a referendum when they were going off to war, did they?” he added. “No, fucking assholes.”
Noel has just risen enormously in my estimation.
Just self-interested bloggers and journalists stirring the pot and keeping it simmering to provoke more readers/clicks.
These views and -isms about foreigners, gays, feminists, whatever have been bubbling under the surface since before there were even names for them. Never been that hard to find.
This is just another example of the same shit that provoked this current mess in the first place.
Fuck ’em.
Fuck ’em very much.
I was ashamed of the outcome of the vote.
I have read, re-read, updated myself on a daily basis via most news channels of developing thought and reaction to the consensus.
I remain ashamed of 52% of a country which in it’s glorious, progressive but also imperfect past abolished slavery to championing LBGT rights and much more.
Why should I not feel ashamed. Raymond, why is feeling ashamed ‘my problem’?
I’ve had three messages from strangers on Facebook since the weekend, informing me I am a “goat-fucking Muslim”, (I have a surname common in the Muslim world), an “ugly retarded CUNT” and to “stay out of our country”
There’s that pig-shit-thick demographic showing its face.
Please stay in your country, @slotbadger, just to piss them off.
You are the GOAT* fucking Muslim
(Greatest of all time)
Ha! Excellent
Let’s blame the old bastards. Correct Raymond.
Some wise words would certainly have helped. They should have been pleading with the rest of us to vote remain.
Both sides are lying to you. Don’t believe anything you read in the papers. To change the status quo, now, with these clowns in charge, would be a crazy thing to do. Be patient. etc