Of late I have been listening to a number of the albums of the above (IV, Physical Graffiti, Houses of the Holy. I am not very familiar with the albums at all but a fondness for Plant’s recent work has sent me back. I am aware of debates around Bonham’s drumming but it seems that the consensus is that he was great. But in the early reviews there wasn’t just a debate but outright scathing critiques of his drumming. As a disinterested listener (and a musician myself) , I find him plodding; indeed I am struck by how bad he actually seems to be on these recordings. I am wondering what the drummers and other musicians, listeners etc make of it?
Second question is about the fidelity of the sound. Again, I am struck by how ordinary the sound is on these albums. It sounds very boomy, reverb on drums and vocals that really impacts negatively.
For all of that, I quite like the albums though I vastly prefer Physical Graffiti to Houses of the Holy. So I’m a bit interested in what the aficionado’s think about these matters.
There’s slewage of YouTubes by drummers analysing his technique, and they’re all full of praise. My impression is that he’s a very skillful drummer whose skill is rather hidden behind his bludgeoning attack. Which I like very much.
Bonham’s drumming has always been a source of contention. Ultimately, I think a lot depends on whether you subscribe to the Helsinki school of drum theory, as opposed to the more standard Marsupial programme.
For a Marsupial adherent, Bonham’s drums will inevitably sound flat and plain. His reflexive fills are barely syncopated, his stick control is sub-par and his use of kick is both ungainly and immature. His insistence on regular shoulder action, as opposed to the more modern brazen hinge technique, is probably responsible for a lot of his failings, but I think you can also argue that he has grip strength issues.
Helsinkiists turn the above analysis on its head. Instead of focusing on the more technical aspects of Bonham’s style, they pay closer attention to the force per square inch he’s exerting on the skins, his sweatband coefficient and (critically) his extremely high Gurn Factor. Seen from this perspective, he’s an all time great, and the driving force behind the band. Personally, I have a lot of sympathy for this view, although I tend to think that Bonham was at his best when placed in percussive quarantine, and from that perspective we probably never got to hear the absolute best of him.
I can’t speak to the fidelity of the sound, as it’s outside my field of expertise.
Thank you for choosing the lively online community of The Afterword for sharing this!
Love what you’ve written , Bingo. Bonham was indeed primordial in his attack, like a steamrollering Meg from the White Stripes. Great for LZ. So anyway, what’s “hinge technique” then?
I’d also appreciate your opinion on my favourite old-timer, Bill Bruford of the amazing driving beat. And the best man currently, Vinnie Colaiuta. Suspect they both belong to your Marsupial category. Thanks.
Thanks, Declan. I usually post on the forums of Thump Magazine, but saw this thread and knew I had to give a few thoughts. What’s the point in having enormous insight if you can’t share it?
Bill Bruford is a tricky one. He’s a classic example of what we aficionados call Clockwork Monkey Syndrome. His drumming is full of precision, and he can be relied upon to hit all the main Ziljan vertices, and also to generally give good twirl. But sometimes I wonder if he wouldn’t benefit from keeping things a little looser; maybe doing things a little less from the head and more from the heart. Or maybe the groin. I’m not a doctor, but you get the picture.
I’ve also seen it theorised that he’s prone to snare envy, and that as a result he sometimes doesn’t fully round his beats. I’m not sure I completely buy that; people tend to forget (or in some circles refuse to accept) that he suffered a total drumstool prolapse early in his career, and it’s not unusual for a Sticksman to adopt non conventional wrist dynamics when recovering from an incident like that.
All in all, I’d say Bruford has proven himself to be very capable, and when it comes to playing kit that’s been arranged in the counter-clockwise Grolsch formation, there’s arguably no one better.
Hope that helps.
Hmmm. Thump Magazine clearly isn’t as much fun as it used to be.
Sadly, the magazine is now defunct, although the forums live on.
Current hot topics include “Vest vs Topless”, and “Does anyone actually enjoy Spinal Tap?”.
Are the Ziljans in Dobly, Bing?
Dobly dropped Ziljan support in ’93.
Methinks you’re getting confused with Refined Tympanic Audio (RTA), which has been used as standard for at least a decade now. Much lower levels of bass decanter and fully compatible with portable quavers.
There were a couple of safety concerns with the initial release, but thankfully for Skinsmiths the world over, those seem to have abated (bar the fatalities in Norway last year).
What?
Oh, about half past five.
Fantastic, Bingo. Cheers.
Indeed, thank you very much for that very entertaining and thoughtful contribution.
That’s all very well, but what about his bowler hat?
I’m no musician, but I know drummers who both like and dislike Bonham’s drumming (same with Keith Moon), but I’ve concluded it depends on whether they actually like the band.
Houses of the Holy is a confused mess in my book, and I do think Physical Graffiti is a bit too long and some pruning would make it better, but it has bloody Kashmir on it! I generally go for the imperial period, 1 – 4.
“I’m no musician, but …”
Afterword T-shirt
I suppose he was, like Keith Moon, ‘the right guy in the right band’ – he had one style and it became part of that band’s sound.
Intriguingly, Page’s first choice for drums (I read somewhere) was the dextrous, great and swinging (and unavailable) BJ Wilson from Procol Harum. A much more versatile fellow:
Utterly superb.
As you say….in a whole different league from Bonham….and I comment as a fan of the mighty Zep….
Are you listening to originals or Page’s remasters ? I did find the sound less muddy on the reissues but don’t have the albums you refer to.
To me he was great at thumping the fuck out of the drums and with Plant’s booming voice fundamental to their power. I reckon Moon had much more swing.
Moon was all over the place but listening to the others in the band and somehow fitting it in. Entwhistle and Townshend held it all together.
Bonham played really hard and loud and the others fitted around him. I don’t get the impression he listened that much.
That’s about right. Moon played along with the melody and wherever they took it.
Are we allowed to say that Led Zeppelin were terrible yet? Histrionic vocals, ridiculous lyrics and all the best tunes stolen. Also some very dubious personal habits.
The same very dubious habits as most other travelling rock & pop stars of their time, I suspect.
Just a lot more opportunity to indulge them.
This is not to excuse them in any way. ’60s -’80s touring musicians were generally pretty foul in their attitudes and were seldom discouraged by those who really ought to have done.
Not sure most of them had effectively imprisoned 14 yr old girlfriends (allegedly).
I think Led Zep were the pinnacle of a musical style.
So @Dai, I’d say no.
You can say it, but it isn’t true. Incredible band.
Not for me, I guess. I find them tedious and find no connection to their songs despite recognising their power.
I really disliked LedZep at the time of their world domination. That whole style of loud and heavy blues-rock with screechy strutting bare-chested vocalists just didn’t suit me at all.
I was going purely by their studio records, never having seen them live or heard any live recordings.
The live BBC recordings, when I first heard them about 10 years ago, were a bit of a revelation in that it seems they were able to ad-lib and extemporise on their material with relative ease, which a lot of hard rock bands simply did not do.
I still have no great interest in them but I have a bit more respect for their skills.
In some contexts, bare-chested vocalists are just fine.
I like Plant solo stuff way better and good on him for covering Gene Clark songs.
What astounds me about John Bonham is that he sounds leaden and tedious and everything you DON’T want in a drummer, until you realise that Zep’s music is so exciting, thrilling, dynamic and – well, grand and arrogantly majestic – that you just succumb and realise this was a great band.
In which case being picky about technical drummy stuff is irrelevant.
Anyway that’s what I think.
*gives Mousey brotherly arms-round*
My favourite drummer is Dave Mattacks. Whilst seldom showy, he can provide one hell of a thwack. Musing on what if BJ Wilson had been in Zep, I wondered about DM. Does this help?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wbF–KO-As
(Didn’t think so……It’s about 3.03 in, if you are losing the will.)
I’ll just leave this here…
Love Zeppelin, (houses of the holy is my fave)
always thought he was a great drummer but I have to say the length of Moby Dick at their concerts is a headscratcher
ROPY STICKS MORE LIKE.
ROPY STICKS!? SOAPY PRI-
Majestic is how I would describe some of the best examples of Bonham’s playing – such as When The Levee Breaks, Since I’ve Been Loving You and Kashmir. Listen to WTLB on a good system and check out the roll round the kit at 5:15. That’s called control. He had technique in abundance. Fair enough if you don’t like his style, but he was a gifted drummer, no doubt about that.
For those brave souls who can click outside the Afterword square, there are many such appreciative and knowledgable assessments on U-Tube. Unfortunately they also show drummers capable of thinking and speaking intelligently. The more I know about drumming, the more smacked of gob I become about the technical demands of the job. It’s a whole other language. And I’m forming the opinion that the drummer is maybe the most important member of the group. Shit drummer = shit group. Bass players can get by with the minimum, guitarists can bluff and cover up lack of chops with effects, but there’s nowhere a drummer can hide.
So true. My brother plays in a covers band. I saw them playing in a pub a few weeks ago and I hated all of it because the bonehead behind the kit was doing his best to fuck up the beat, never played the necessary fills and every time the band lost their way (every other song) it was him that put them out. It was painful and I told my brother so. They fired the drummer the following week. No regrets coyote
Seconded. I’ve taught myself the drums in recent years and have a hugely increased respect for the likes of Ringo, Bob Siebenberg (er, Supergrass), Keith Moon, The Big Figure (Dr Feelgood), Benny Benjamin (Motown), Carlton Barrett (Bob Marley), Barrie Barlow and others who so perfectly match the material and whose contribution I’d ignored for years.
And then I listen to Bonzo playing along to D’yer Mak’er…
Lol, I think we can all agree that ‘Houses…’ is their cocaine album
When it’s good it’s a cracker. And then there’s The Crunge. And D’yer Mak’er. Thank God they left off the title track.
D’yer Mak’er? No, she went of her own accord.
The Crunge?
No, it’s merely indigestion.
No Quarter?
No, but I’ve got a couple of dimes and a nickel…
Boogie With Stu?
Er, no, I’ll just have the Crackerjack pencil, if that’s okay.
Night Flight? No, I’m just off my tits with beak.
I wonder did anyone EVER go to an LZ concert thinking, ‘Jeez, I really hope they’ll play ‘Moby Dick’ tonight…’
Billy Cobham’s solo on One Word is quite as bad, and seems as long.
Some non histrionic vocals
I’m not really a Zep fan but I did hear one of the recent Page remasters at my local hi-fi shop. It still sounded murky to me. Two technical things come to mind:
One was the drum kit set up in the hallway of a large house with the drum mics hung over the bannisters of the landing above to pick up the ambience of the room. Given the prevailing 1970s technique of spot-mic’ing a dead-sounding kit, I think this is a good thing.
The other was Jimmy Page mixing an album on speakers with a pronounced high-frequency (treble) response. When they played it back on normal speakers, it sounded so dull that they went to another studio and started the mixing process all over again.
I tend to stick to just the first and second album.
All the hippy drippy leaves me cold.
Late evening and properly refreshed I cannot but adore the sonic picture.( tm) painted by the first half of Ramble On….
But then the frkkin lyrics turn all Tolkien and ruin it.
Me and fishface, we’re like mates we are. Well said, mate!
I’d go even further and say the first one is the only one you really need to bother with and it has actually aged lot better than the rest , showing a band that sound excited about playing together for the first time
When I got an electronic drum kit for my birthday a few years ago I attempted to play along to Black Dog. It’s an odd time signature and very tricky to play along to. And if you listen closely, the gap between Plant’s vocals at the end of each verse and when the guitar & drums come back in are different every time. Was this by accident or design? I don’t know, but it makes it a bugger to keep in time with the recording.
I have to confess I’ve never been much of a Zep fan, but I’ve always admired Bonzo as a drummer. I think he’s a great drummer, and as has already been stated, absolutely the right drummer for Led Zep.
With regard to Keith Moon, I’ve always seen the Who as band with three lead musicians and a lead singer. In the early days he served the song more or less (although he certainly thrashed about more than was absolutely necessary on many an early Who tune), but in the later years he was their lead drummer. Again, maybe not the world’s best but certainly the right drummer for the band, as has been evidenced by the Who with various other tub thumpers in tow. It just wasn’t the same.
Agreed. Ditto The Who without Entwistle really. Just wrong.
They’re playing a five over a four, @Billybob Dylan. Here’as an interesting article:
https://hooksanalysis.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/killer-changes-of-time-signature-syncopation-pulse-tempo-in-led-zeppelins-black-dog-1971/
Interesting stuff that. It chimes with something I read many Moons ago (you won’t believe what I did there) where the LSO were doing their Symphonic Rock thing and they mentioned how Black Dog had something like 90 (can’t recall exactly but think of a stupidly large figure) time shifts.
Led Zep were a prime example of a synergy band.
All very good at what they did, but together they were untouchable.
They were never the same performers away from the band, as their respective solo careers proves
(except John Bonham, who never went down the “singing drummer” route).
Robert Plant nearly escapes, but his albums never quite get near the pomp, bombast, delicacy and power of LZ
I much prefer Robert Plant solo, especially since 2003. Far more interesting musically with greater range and depth in his songs. Still plenty of pomp and delicacy. The power is only turned up to max occasionally and is all the better for it.
Pomp and Delicacy… the charcuterie counter at Kensington’s Waitrose.
Long time lurker, infrequent poster and all that.
I had (have) a close friend of 20 years standing who one day revealed that he liked cricket. It’s not to my taste, and there’s nothing wrong with liking cricket per se. But it was odd that there was an assumption that i didn’t even know I’d been making about a person i knew, and there was now a whole swathe of things about this person that, suddenly, felt unknown.
I had assumed Bonham’s magnificence was an ‘a priori’ assumption, much like The Beatles being a good band, or that Bob Dylan is a songwriter of some merit.
Yes, horses for courses and, yes, not everyone’s tastes are the same. And I’m not even a major Zeppelin fan. I love II and IV and some of the singles (yes, I know!!). But I had assumed a general acknowledgement that Bonham was A Good Thing.
Not meant to raise ire or to incite debate – we ain’t talking the best Belle & Sebastian B sides – merely to say, I suppose, that assumptions are funny things.
Anyway, I’m off to listen to Misty Mountain Hop and jump around the loungeroom like a loon with my 4 year old son while everyone else argues the toss cos it’s already Friday night in Sydney! Salut!
“There’s nothing wrong with liking cricket per se”. A pretty controversial viewpoint, if you don’t mind me saying so, Dan.
I was trying to sugarcoat it; I loathe cricket.
My thing about Led Zeppelin is that I recognise the magnificence of their individuals without actually loving the band or its music all that much. Sometimes, when they hit it just right, they were amazing (Heartbreaker, Kashmir, Custard Pie, Dazed and Confused), but most of the time they sound a lot less than the sum of their parts to me.
I got the same impression when watching Plant on Later… the other day. Every one of his musicians was great. Not slick session widdlers at all: tons of groove, a general feeling that they were a real band of simpatico musicians – and yet. The overall sound, and the songs, weren’t particularly compelling to my ears. That’s where I am with Zeppelin too.
Your first paragraph describes exactly my feelings towards The Who. (As regards Zep, I don’t find them particularly interesting either individually or collectively).
My feelings about The Who are less complicated: I can’t stand them. Either as individuals or collectively.
I love watching Moon play. Preferably with the volume turned off.
Yeah, I’d be fine with that too.
Who cares what you old gits think! This is the new generation, and we’ve got something to say! Move over, Grandads! The rock revolution starts here! [more in this vein]
What I want to know is when you young things are going to do something about past participles. I want to be able to say “when they hat it just right”, and frankly you whippersnappers need to get your usage fingers out and jolly well arrange matters so that I can.
Welcome to the unlurking world @DanP. In loving II and IV you missed out on the best one III.
III is my favest, too. Very special, that one.
Thirded.
Symboled
Zosoed, shirley?
How do you measure a drummer’s ability? What’s the general yardstick?
How much stick twirling they can do?
How high they can throw a drumstick and catch it whilst keeping on the beat?
The size of their kit (is bigger always better?)
General Yardstick was briefly the drummer in Frank Zappa’s Mothers of Invention. He is chiefly memorable for dressing in full military regalia at all times (including dress medals), and for his unusual musical style.
Eschewing the standard 16″ drumstick, General Yardstick instead preferred to drum with a specially designed pair of boat oars. This limited his ability to drum quickly, or to lift his arms after gigs, but gave his playing a deeper aural resonance, and provided the bedrock for much of the Mothers’ early sound.
General Yardstick died tragically in 1965 while trying to row a boat across Lake Winnibigoshish using only a pair of toothpicks. He was replaced by Melvin Thunderfreak (aka The Count of Monte Cowbell), but never forgotten by aficionados of the rim shot.
You’re a fool, Bingo Little. But a damned attractive one.
It helps if you can count to four
I’m impressed by anyone who can play drums and sing at the same time. When I’m at gigs I can’t even simultaneously sing and clap in time. If the clapping rhythms get more complex (clap, clap-clap, pause,clap, clap-clap, pause) I always have to abandon it or the singing.
Are you Bobby Gillespie?
You should try clapping and fapping at the same time. NIghtmare!
Never done that, but I have occasionally done the latter just after a particularly successful go at the former.
How come everyone but me already knew the word “fapping”? I only discovered it yesterday, after that nice Mr. Saucecraft
showedtold me. It’s my new favourite word.Adds a whole new layer of meaning to ‘giving yourself a big hand’.
You should try not singing at gigs, it’s really annoying when I can’t hear the person I paid to hear.
I only ever sing when it gets to the ‘everybody!’ Instruction from stage bit, and not always then. Which is a good thing for all concerned.
You do what pop stars tell you?
You must have had a colourful life.
I particularly like Bonzo’s right foot. Not many drummers can hit a triple on the kick drum. He also uses his foot with some finesse. I love the beginning of Levee. He kicks with a thump, then softens the skin vibration with a delicate pedal touch. Lovely.
My guess is he’s a heel-toe kind of guy. The heel is pretty constantly raised. You can tell by the knee tremble and lift.
Having said that, I don’t much like Led and could happily spend the rest of my life without hearing another note from them. However, I’d watch that knee tremble again and again.
Didn’t know you’re a drummer, Tigs. That’s a few we’ve got on here.
In my youth, I was a heel-toe man, myself. A triple was beyond my skill set, though.
This is quite instructive on JB’s footwork. The Dazed and Confused section is a sight to behold:
Personally, I find keeping up with Karen Carpenter’s footwork on Jambalaya hard enough…
My wife just shot me. I am thinking she will get off claiming “what else would you do?”