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Labour leadership – anyone watching?

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I’m not a member, but occasional voter, however I’m quite fascinated. If it is Corbyn, I’m starting to wonder if it IS electoral suicide…maybe this is a big change moment. Perhaps there’ll be a groundswell of support for a rebalancing of wealth etc. Who knows!

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Comments

    • Well, I can’t help but think that is a dangerous thought. It doesn’t matter what the Tories do to us, as long as we have a Saint for a leader? We’d rather be morally pure than able to do something? It doesn’t matter that we can’t do anything, as long as we can talk a good game?

      As you can tell, I didn’t vote for Corbyn, but Labour is a democratic party and that is what the majority want. I am pleased he got a majority in all the electoral groups – at least gives him more legitimacy. What I think is important now is uniting to win the next general election in 4 1/2 years (though in the longer term the EU referendum and Scottish elections might actually be more important),

    • This is purely my own faintly Whiggish opinion but rebalancing of wealth strikes me as beggar thy neighbour politics and the kind of guff Corbyn’s paedo-hiding mates in Sinn Fein want to inflict on Ireland.

  5. Same here. For too long the Parliamentray Labour Party has been something I could only vote for by metaphorically holding my nose, and I don’t really consider myself left wing.

  7. I just hope the Corbynites will own it if (or rather when) his leadership proves to be a catastrophe.

    Somehow, I doubt they will. I’m guessing it’ll be the fault of powerful forces in the media. The same media he’s just coated off in his acceptance speech.

  10. Things Can Only Get Worse

    by N:ightmare

    Soft targets for Cameron to kick around, Osborne PM in 2020, Labour looking at a smoking bullet hole in each foot.

    Well done everyone.

      • Disagree. For all that the thought of him as PM chills my blood, Osborne is socially moderate – even liberal – and is largely in line with public opinion when it comes to social policy. He’s a witty and formidable Commons force, and he’s done and continues to do quite a good job of detoxifying his own brand. I think you underestimate him at your peril.

        He’ll kick the living hell out of Corbyn without breaking a sweat.

        • Apparently he has also built a huge network of supporters in the parliamentary party, including a few strategic decapitations, so he has bags of backing. Boris is now the one on the back foot as the economy improves. But don’t worry, just call him Gideon on Facebook and it’ll all be OK.

        • Sorry, I disagree. The idea that he can “detoxify his own brand” beggars belief. Just look him in the eye when he’s at it; he’s a creepy, sneaky, smarmy and horribly toady little thing, and I believe the electorate can sense that, however clever he may seem in the short term as regards Westminster manouevring. Edwina’s remarks about Howard could so easily apply to him.

          • Weren’t they Widdicombe’s words? Anyway, I always thought that Cameron/Osborne was always a bit like Brown/Blair – the one with the brains was repulsive to the electorate so he was fronted up by a spivvy pr man.

            • I think the idea that Brown was the brains and Blair the looks (let’s make lots of money) doesn’t really stand up to a lot of scrutiny. Blair – at least for the first decade of his leaderships – had once-in-a-generation political instincts, and was no fool. Brown also had a first class mind but was hamstrung by his own emotional instability.

              I think there’s a lot of re-writing of history done with the benefit of post-Iraq hindsight. Too many of us have forgotten just what we had in Tony Blair: he was something very special indeed for a while there.

  11. A Conservative writes: I am oddly pleased at the result. It should mean there will be a distinct difference between the two main parties, rather than both trying to occupy the centre, leaving voters with no real reason to vote for one or the other. Whether Mr Corbyn is still the leader in 2020, I don’t doubt that Labour will have moved, and will still be, very much to the left of where it is now, which will make for a robust election campaign. Still, that’s 5 years away, and much will have changed nationally and internationally by then.

  13. He certainly seems to have a major beef with the media, judging by his acceptance speech. I hope that he doesn’t let that consume him too much – I think he needs to sideline the traditional press gallery toadies who are now going to clamour to be his best mate. Don’t need ’em.

    • I don’t think they will try to be his mate – I think they will try to humiliate him and portray him as a wide eyed fool – and that’s just the Labour leaning press (such as it is).
      The media has already decided the story is that he is Michael Foot Jnr. Reality will not get a look in.

      • Sky News just interviewed someone from The Telegraph who claimed that Corbyn’s acceptance speech was an embarrassing, unprepared ramble that no Labour Party MP could possibly support.

        Whereas I liked it.

        • Me too – I was impressed.
          I tend to agree with Policybloke – except I’m a labour voter – if he can form a shadow cabinet this could be a party of opposition rather than a diluted version of the government. It’ll al go horribly wrong, but right now I feel happy with my party for the first time in a long time.

  14. A lot of crystal ball owners everywhere. So many claiming to know exactly what the future holds. I think I’m like many others in that I lost interest in politics until Corbyn reignited it. I’ve come to really admire him. Every time I’ve watched him speak he makes total sense to me and I believe him. I’ve never experienced that feeling towards a British party leader before.

    • Agree. Not since John Smith anyway. When asked a question you can see him thinking about what he thinks, rather than what he thinks people want to hear. Refreshing., and many many people can see that and respond to it. If he is still leader in 2020 I guarantee he will do better than Miliband & co did.

      • You amaze me. I would have said that every single opinion Corbyn has could be easily deduced via a perusal of a single copy of London Labour Briefing. Pausing before answering is a pretty standard trick BTW, albeit one that has been out of fashion. Suits his personal style.

        • You can say that about any politician, just substitute the party rag of your choice. I wasn’t really talking about his delivery style, rather the fact that he looks like he actually believes the words that are coming out of his mouth, and that people connect with it.

  15. I’m not a Labour supporter and while at this stage there’s a case for saying that Labour are committing suicide; there’s three things that complicate that;

    1: The EU referendum which is going to be one almighty gangbang for the Conservative party – a Pasolini-style one where everybody’s either shagging or murdering someone else. Who’s left standing after that (in a Government with a 12-seat majority) remains to be seen.

    2: Corbyn intends to target people who don’t vote but are eligible to, which is a significant demographic.

    3: People who left Labour because it wasn’t left-wing enough.

    That apart, if I had to put money on it I’d say Labour will hit a point where they’ll have no choice but to coalesce/align with other parties to make up the numbers. With the Lib-Dems that means being pro-PR, so in the end it’ll result in a much better system.

    We’ve got a Government that 63% didn’t vote for, and who formed a Government after losing 0.8% of their support, and an opposition who got wiped out after gaining a 1.5% increase in support. So if Labour taking another beating is the gateway to getting rid of the archaic FPTP, (which I’d guess it will be), then it’s fine with me.

    • On point 2, as some one of AW age (i.e. old enough to remember vinyl the first time round), if Corbyn does manage to mobilise the young it will make for very interesting politics. Particularly if they wake up to how much my generation (and older) have been shafting them to feather our own nests. In 20 years today’s young people will be in power and we will be pensioners. I hope they treat us better than we have treated them.

    • On point 3, I think there is rather larger group who didn’t vote Labour bacuase they thought a) the SNP was a better bet in Scotland or b) they view Labour as too metropolitan or c) don’t like what Labour says about immigration or d) didn’t trust them on the economy. Corby will need to appeal to as many, if not more, of these if he is to re-establish Labour.

      • Absolutely, and I don’t think he can straddle all these issues simultaneously, or enough to get him elected – although in Scotland Corbyn’s old Labour stylee is very appealing and may give the SNP problems. I’m guessing that’s what Sturgeon is pre-empting with her hints of a 2nd referendum re. Labour being unelectable at Westminster.
        Although how ‘old Labour’ he turns out to be remains to be seen. Old Labour being often highly protectionist re. immigration; Corbyn was anti-EU back in the day.

        While I certainly wouldn’t put money on Labour being in Government any time soon, I do think the almighty shitstorm of the EUref doesn’t make anything entirely predictable. Still, interesting times.

  16. “The harsh truth: this is a disastrous, collective decision made by Labour’s comfort zone, aided and abetted by hard-left dinosaurs leading the big unions, some wide-eyed youth looking for inspiration, a few leftover Trots and some three-pound political tourists.”

    Rob Marchant in The Independent

    So Afterworders, which one of those comfort zone types are you?

    Are you:

    A) A hard-left dinosaur
    B) A wide-eyed youth
    C) A left-over Trot or
    D) A three-pound political tourist?
    E) None of the above

    I predict that we are witnessing the death throes of party politics as we’ve known it for the past 100 years

    • No, we’re not. We’re just seeing an emotional spasm that gives the Tories a nailed on majority until 2025. After Corbyn has had his Nicky Hutchinson moment in 2020, then the process of making Labour electable again can begin.

      • I don’t know. I’ve a feeling this will galvanise smaller parties even more and give them at least 1 if not 2 generations worth of time to fill the gap between the Tories and Labour. Last time labour went this far left from Foot to Kinnock there was still a proper working class and a left-wing consensus that still appealed to a significant proportion of the population. That’s gone. Back then there was a very clear 2 party system with minor parties being mainly a token democratic reminder of choice. Corbyn’s victory gives the Lib Dems an enormous political landscape again and allows the SNP to monopolise its gains at the last election. Corbyn makes Labour a minority party in a political space today where there are significant minority parties that can chip away at them for years without having to focus on the Tories.

        • Oh I’m not saying a Labour revival is inevitable – far from it. It’s a real possibility that the Tories could dominate the UK in the same way that the Christian Democrats dominated post-war Italy.

          • I wonder if he’ll try and build an understanding with the Greens and with the LibDems on where there is consensus with their politics and supporters with a view to becoming first and foremost a significant opposition voice of “the many” and from that collective voice of opposition he leads Labour on a potential coalition ticket for a majority government by 2020 or 2025. Can he woo the SNP?

  18. Was out when result came through but I have just watched his acceptance speech on BBC. I think becomes across as likeable, inclusive and intelligent. No doubt the Tory media will depict him as the direct opposite of all these things.
    At least we now have an opposition that will do what it says on the tin.

  20. Profoundly depressing and I’m no Labour party member. Typical that Corbyn should lambast the media and play to the gallery. He’s getting his excuses in early I suppose. Let’s be frank, the media have not been lying or smearing him when they have highlighted his support for every lunatic and nasty organisation so long as they are anti-American and largely anti-semitic (and you can throw in homophobic and anti just about everything we take for granted . He has shared platforms with them and and not as a way to find solutions. This is bollocks and only the stupidly credulous could possibly believe that these lunatics form part of the solution to what’s going on in the Middle East. He supported Galloway when when he was running against Labour, he has supported ‘resistance’ against occupying forces in Iraq (so that would be bombing kids coming out of mosques would it jeremy ?). The idea that this man, quite part from his fantasy 1970s economics, would be prime minister makes me shiver. This country is crying out for a decent opposition, for a left of centre party that is rooted in reality and has a desire to do things and help people who need it (er, like Blair & Brown). Corbyn represents a fantasyland I really don’t want to be part of. The fact that he may be a decent bloke is largely irrelevant.

  21. This result will undoubtably galvanise and excite the party – even those opposed to him – in a way that none of the others winning would have done, particularly given his unarguable majority and mandate. And if he puts together the right cabinet, including people like Chukka, Stella Creasy, and others, and adopts clear pragmatic positions on the EU, NATO etc, it might just be that the party will unite behind him. I doth think it’s going to be an easy ride for the Torys – suddenly they have a very different kind of target and I think we may well see Cameron in particular quite discomfited by Corbyn.

    But….

    This is not Greece, or even Spain, and I think the parallels withn the rise of their left leaning parties don’t apply. The vast majority of the British public don’t care about Corbyn or know who he is, and they voted against Milibands labour on the basis of being too left wing and economically unconvincing. I simply don’t know how Corbyn is going to persuade anyone different, and I fear that Labour (and several intelligent people I know) are living in a complete bubble of self delusion at the moment.

    And I must say seeing the likes of Dave Prentice and Len McCluskey popping up looking pleased as punch depresses me – a lifelong Labour supporter – so god knows what impact it will have on those Tory voters Labour need to win over.

    • As things stand, it doesn’t look like he will have much to chose from in terms of forming a shadow cabinet. In terms of what Steve T said about inclusivity, Corbyn’s may well be an inclusive sort of person. I very much doubt that many of his closer allies, both within the party and in the unions have any inclination that way.

  22. I feel like many of his supporters have forgotten that the main job of a party leader is to lead the parliamentary party. In this case, a parliamentary party to which he’s been serially – and apparently indiscriminately – disloyal for the last 30 years.

    Good luck with that.

    • I’ve just been shot down by the friend-of-a-friend for saying this very thing. He reckons that Corbyn’s only responsibility is to “the constituents that employ him”. He also thinks that democracy means ‘sticking to your principles.’ If this is the level of understanding in Jezza’s brave new world, I think we should be rather concerned.

  23. That shadow cabinet in full:

    Gerry Adams – Defence Minister
    Anjem Choudary – Home Secretary
    Russell Brand – Director of Communications and Strategy (Spin Doctor)
    George Galloway – Head Of MI6

  24. But on the other hand, this was the only result that will have any actual consequence. As an unapologetically Blairite Labour member, I suspect (and now rather hope) that the medium to long term consequence will be the end of the Labour Party as it has existed so far and its breakup into a two parties: one proper socially democratic left-centrist electable force which can finally rid itself of the spectre of Iraq and remind the world just how good the Blair years were, and one rump of Corbynite protest merchants.

    But then again, maybe he’ll surprise me by not being an utter catastrofuck, and if he does I’ll be the first one to admit I was wrong. But I’m not holding my breath.

  25. Thank God he was elected. If any of the other candidates were elected we would still be left in political stasis and – let’s not kid ourselves – labour would still have lost the next election. Even reasoned right wing commentators like Peter Obourne acknowledge his grasp of foreign policy is acute and that he offers the only genuine political choice.

    Don’t forget, at the time they became leaders. Churchill and Thatcher were both divisive mavericks.That said, if anyone has read the last Private Eye they will know that the media Is already twisting his words So he has his work cut out to get his message out.

  26. The two Bobs are, ahem, bob-on. Any other result would have left us as we were – this will unquestionably change things one way or another. It may just be that Labour have to go backwards to eventually go forwards. My hope is that from the wreckage, a left- liberal and nationally electable Labour Party will emerge with a new leader from the younger generation.

  27. Dodger Lane and Bob have summed it up for me. Disastrous for the Labour Party and disastrous for the country.

    The Tories must be raising glasses of their best claret this afternoon as they get on with planning at least a further 8 years of uninterrupted power.

    This is a short term moment of glory for starry eyed idealists. No matter how principled you are, how much you genuinely believe in social equality, it is all meaningless if the majority of the country think your a bit of a crackpot extremist and any chance of power is more distant than ever.

    I have voted labour my whole life and never missed an opportunity to vote but would genuinely consider abstaining at the next election as a, admittedly tiny, protest against this suicidal, albeit democratic, decision.

    Britain is not, and never has been, a country who looks for extreme politics and politicians it why we have never had a socialist government or an extreme far right one. I absolutely believe that the majority of the country vote for who they most trust to keep a few quid in their pockets and will keep the country in the safest hands possible, including doing right by as many people as possible. Most are not hardline idealouges.

    I was a big Blair supporter and, at the risk of the wrath of the anti Blair brigade here, still believe he and Gordon led largely successful terms of government in terms of investment on the NHS and education along with other areas. But, fan of new labour or not, it seems obvious to me that a degree of pragmatism is required to hope to appeal to the majority of voters and this applies to both sides, the Tories will not pick a rabid right winger for the same reason.

    Once in government you can then look to achieve policies by stealth.

    Oh, and I though the acceptance speech was an embarrassing amateurish shambles.

    Bye bye labour see you in 5 years for the next leadership election.

    • Art Vandelay – I agree with every word of your post. Well said, AFAIAC, you have hit the nail on the head.

      I have said this until I am blue in the face, but I have always thought that Labour would be happier as an idealistic opposition party.

      At the next general election, I think that if Jeremy Corbyn is still Labour party leader, they will get a serious kick up the arse.

      Lets not forget, in 2020 he will be in his 70s (age as well as policies) – the Tory press will have a field day.

    • Never had a Socialist Government or a Right Wing government? In my lifetime I would cite Harold Wilson’s govt as Socialist and Maggie Thatchers govt as extreme right wing. The fact that Thatcher was popular doesn’t mean she was Centrist – far from it.

  29. Parties don’t win general elections, they lose them! Ed was as incapable of communicating to the public at large, he came across as even less competent than call me Dave.

    Of the 4 candidates JC was the only one who was clear about what he stood for, the others were all chancers. If he can reach out to the politically disenfranchised he will have a chance to win the votes that aren’t going to any party now, that could be enough to get them over the line in 2020. The right wing of the party need to reflect that they did not win the last election standing on a Tory lite agenda.

    As far as the establishment media are concerned he has come under the same level of attack as the indie campaign got in Scotland last year. The papers do even pretend to publish the truth any more, they simply serve a narrow agenda. We need a free press and we need it now!

  30. Corbyn will be shot to bits at the despatch box, in the media, by his own party and by his own supporters, who have spent so long sniping from the sidelines about who everyone else is doing it wrong that they have no concept of collaborative politics. They’ll turn on him the moment he tries to get something done. It’s going to to very messy and enormous fun for a short while.

    But… I’m still glad the has happened. I’d love the third party to be a Leftist one, and you never change anything by moaning on the margins. Corbyn’s brief reign will give a voice to a lot of underrepresented people and causes, and it will have an effect on the constitution of the new, electable Labour party which follows it.

    And let’s be honest, none of the other candidates were going to beat Osborne either.

    • Personally, although I’m not a fan of Corbyn, I think he’ll handle himself very well at the despatch box, and will go a long way to expose Cameron as the empty vessel that he is.

  32. “They’re all the same!” continued. Facts can be a dull old business, what with them being based in reality and all that. Note this IFS graph, for example, showing the *net* effects of the last Tory budget. The 3 million poorest families will be £1K a year worse off. Pretty much their disposable income, I should think. That’s money redistributed towards them by Blair (sorry, BLIAR!) and Brown and now redirected to the better off, by the Tories. That’s the difference a Labour government made. That’s what the Tories do. And now they have at least 10 years in which to carry on doing it. Still, as long as we’re wishing hard enough for something different, eh? That’s what really counts (although it does help if you’re well off enough to afford 10 years of Tory government).

    http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af344/embraman/budget%202015b.png

      • I don’t think so. However they did produce a publication on that specific question:

        “Our scenario suggests that only around 13% (£150 per year) of the losses due to tax and benefit changes (£1,090 per year) of all working age households currently entitled to benefits and tax credits – including non-working households – will be offset by the NLW, on average.”

        • lando – Institute for Fiscal Studies reports showed that Labour’s third term saw a sharp rise in income inequality, as well as a fall in the income of the poorest fifth of the population.

          • Imagine how much worse that would have been without tax credits. Ah but we don’t need to now, of course.

            There’s no doubt that inequality increased because a few people got very rich indeed. the drop in income for the poorest fifth is harder to explain though – does it give any reasons?

            • Didn’t read in full, though maybe the 10% tax didn’t help. That and importing vast amounts of cheap labour to bolster their vote.
              No surprise you’re a fan of the statist, grossly bureaucratic and inefficient Tax Credits system.

              • Tax credits – I think it is a messy, over complicated system.

                Could the same result not have been achieved by altering an individuals personal tax code?

                I think that the tax credit system/principle typified Gordon Browns need to meddle/ micro manage depending on personal point of view.

                    • Because it wouldn’t have targeted the money at where it was most needed – simply raising the threshold would have also given everyone up to and including the super-rich an equal increase.

                      And as can be seen from the IFS graph, it worked very well, providing an incentive to work.

                      Not entirely clear why tax credits were any more or less ‘statist’ than tax thresholds tbh.

  33. I know I shouldn’t intrude on private grief, but….you’d need a heart of stone etc etc
    What’s the latest betting on when he’ll be overthrown?

  34. I can’t see Labour getting elected on a left wing mandate, but I think he could have a positive effect on politics in general. He has captured the imagination of large number of people, simply by appearing human, decent and unscripted.

    I enjoyed the fact that his speech seemed off-the-cuff and heartfelt.

  35. There are probably more people than we would imagine who might be encouraged to a more left wing mandate. Many, I fear, will be put off by the belligerence with which it may be delivered by acolytes such as McCluskey, Livingstone et al have a higher profile.

    • It really isn’t, Jim. A Blairite is someone who believes passionately in the ideals and values of the Labour movement but recognises that its original methods aren’t always going to work in the modern world.

        • I’ve argued this before, both here and with friends, but there’s no logic in this newly-established cliche of Blair and like-minded people being Tories/Red Tories/whatever. If he/they are so right-wing and against ‘Labour values’, why didn’t he/they just join the Conservative Party? What is there to stop them, if Tory ideology/policy is where their loyalties supposedly lie?
          Could it be that as Bob suggests, they do actually share those Labour values and objectives but have a different and legitimate perspective on how they can be achieved in the real world?

          • Because if they joined the Tories, they’d have to admit that they’re Tories. New Labour allows them to keep hold of their money whilst still feeling good about themselves.

            • This is really inaccurate and unfair, Jim. The Conservative and Labour parties stand for fundamentally different things. I have little to no sympathy for the former and believe strongly in the latter.

              Also, your view that people are somehow shy about outing themselves as Tories is a bit confusing. EVERYONE where I live is a Tory. The two constituencies I’ve lived in during the last decade couldn’t be truer bluer. On the rare occasions that talk has turned to politics since I’ve lived here, it’s been about how awful Labour are, how they ruined the country, crashed the economy, caused the deficit, let all the Muslims in. Believe me, there’s fuck all glory or righteousness to be claimed in believing in the Labour movement down here.

              Being on the less statist, Marxist side of the Labour party isn’t remotely close to being a Tory. The two worldviews are chalk and cheese.

  38. There is also a substantial part of the Liberal support that is not, whatever else it is, particularly left of centre. This is also the bit that has won on the past ( and may do so again) in the West Country and middle class seats like Lewes, theWelsh borders etc where Labour haven’t got a prayer.

  42. I am glad Jeremy Corbyn won, for many reasons. He comes across as a charismatic, determined, principled man, articulate and considered, open and generous towards others. I like his stance against austerity, his focus on equality and justice both domestically and internationally.

    I also like that he entered the race for there to be a genuine discussion and consultation within his party. and I think it is this, together with his clearly stated focus on policies not personalities that will be the testing for a Corbyn-led Labour Party. Principles and values are important for rallying a post-election demoralised Party. Putting those values into pragmatic policies is the next step, which is where the discussion and consultation come in (and not just imposing a far left agenda),

    Then after that comes the presentation to the public. Is Jeremy Corbyn an appealing figure? I think, from what I said in the first paragraph, he is, as long as he doesn’t lose his patience or temper with the media too much (like he did with Krishnan Guru Murthy earlier this summer, and then in his acceptance speech).

  44. 15.7 million people didn’t vote in May – 33.9% of those on the elec reg. Biggest single group – easily more than Con or Lab voters. Tap into that and all bets about ‘normal politics’ are off.

  46. I see he is being ridiculed for not having a prepared speech. Like that’s a bad thing.

    Tory supporters think they have an clear path into the next decade. Last time I looked, they were clinging on to a wafer-thin majority and a nice little EU referendum coming up. Corbyn isn’t going to be easy to handle.

    That Pritti Patel interview up there says it all. Her reinforcement of key messages no matter what the question is such an oafish, arrogant tactic.

  47. Sorry, but has the Labour electorate really gone bonkers since May? Have they really elected a far-left wcandidate as leader? Really? Without outside interference? I just don’t buy it. Have I been dreaming for the last few months?

    I have a lot of respect for Jeremy Corbyn’s views over a number of years, but I find it hard to believe that 60 per cent of the Labour Party have voted for him to be leader. Somebody fucking WAKE ME UP!!!!!!

    • I know. I suspect that it’s related to the fact that most of that electorate were not around to learn the hard lessons of the 80s. So now we’ll have a cycle when we get to learn them all over again – yippee!

      The single most astonishing thing for me is the re-branding of the London Labour Briefing sect as ‘traditional/old Labour’. I’m struggling to think of a comparator for this wildly successful piece of spin-doctoring.

      • It’s right up there with “public sector overspending caused the recession”, isn’t it?

        Waking up this morning, I find I’m really in two minds about whether I can stay in the party. It voted, in droves, for Corbyn – who was bottom of my list. It voted for Watson – who was bottom of my list. It looks as if my section of the party – the section that actually, you know, won a general election or two in the last forty years – are going to have to get used to being called “red Tories” for five fucking years by people who couldn’t find their electoral arse with both hands and apparently have amazingly short memories.

        It’s bloody depressing.

        • You’re right. This business where Liz Kendal is a Tory exposes the wonky thinking at root of some of these people. Anyone who can’t tell the difference between her and John Redwood is insane, frankly. I am still glad JC won because we have genuinely different parties, and it opens up the middle. Remains to be seen who I vote for but I’m considering joining the Lib Dems as they need a hand. (comments re Liz Kendal apply equally to the coalition government…maybe people can see the diference now?). Can’t wait to see how the shadow cabinet shaoes up and JC gets at Cameron.

        • I am hoping that this really is a change. One of my pet hates the phrase “meanwhile …in the real world”. It’s a phrase used by craven scoundrels who either have vested interests or are too scared to challenge anything.

          The Conservative majority is not very much. Scotland may come back to Labour and if he can get some of the 35% (35%!) that do not vote interested again, there is every chance.

          • I don’t get this “the higher the turnout, the better Labour’s chances of getting back in” thing. Even if a third of those who stayed at home last time can be persuaded to vote, bringing the turnout up to 75% or so, who says they’ll vote for Labour?

            Thatcher was re-elected twice with a turnout of around 75%.

            Aw bugger.

            • Yes, 75% ish is about what it was in the 70s/80s/90s. A huge drop to below 60% in 2001 and then mid-60s since then.

              I suppose the fact that Corbyn’s different approach might encourage some of the lost 35% to get back into the voting process. It seems logical to me that they would then vote for Labour, although I concede that there will be a certain amount that vote to ensure that Labour don’t get in. I think the former group will be higher than the latter.

          • Scotland no longer listens to what Labour have to say. He may get a few seats back, given the extraordinary result at the last General Election, but no more than a few.

    • The margin of victory is too great for this to be anything other than the authentic voice of the Labour Party. What is significant I’d how different that is to the parliamentary party. The three more mainstream candidates should have had every advantage over Corbyn but were trounced by him.

      When given the option to vote for someone who represented their views rather than telling them to keep quiet or the Westminster part would have to drift further right in a (probably doomed) effort to gain the centre ground. This may be the least worst outcome. None of the other three would have made any impact on the Tories.

      So, with a rose tinted crystal ball, Corbyn manages to keep the party together and develops a coherent set of left wing populist policies, but steps down before the next election deciding that he is too old for the top job. A Labour Party re energised by him (perhaps under Watson) makes larger gains than anyone expected and stops a Conservative majority being formed in 2020. No, I don’t really believe it either, but it’s a more optimistic picture than I could imagine than under Cooper, Burnham or Kendall.

    • Re: Billy Bragg at a rally with the Labour leader, singing ‘The Red Flag.’

      Yes, I was rather hoping he’d do “The Saturday Boy” or “A Lover Sings” or “The Man in the Iron Mask” or “The Mother of the Bride” or “Walk Away Renée” or “Tank Park Salute”. But it was not to be.

  49. I had always considered myself to be a Blairite Labour supporter until I recently lost my faith in the party. (FWIIW I don’t think Ed Milliband could wipe his arse in the dark).

    Labour (old Labour if you will) have got the leader they wanted, & in doing so, I think they have just shit on their own doorstep – OOAA.

    Yes, I realise there is a bit of a scatological theme in this post, but a man should have a hobby…

  51. It strikes me that this is a bit like the Tories electing IDS as leader in 2001. It’s a party retreating to its comfort zone.

    Trouble is I’m not sure Labour can be quite as ruthless when it comes to recognising its error.

    • It’s one of the more bizarre aspects of modern politics where a party, having had its offering rejected by the electorate, makes the decision that what the electorate therefore want is a more extreme version. Cf the Tories with IDS and the baleful influence of the Tea Party on the Republicans.
      To my mind, this is where politics overlaps with religion/faith; the most devoted claim they are the true keepers of the flame and others are heretics who must be driven out. Follow this path and you then become a sect, not a political party. Yeats had it right – ‘the worst are full of passionate intensity’

        • So do I Bob. Thatcher was always going to win in 83 (Falklands factor), but Labour helped by having Michael Foot as leader.

          The Conservative party are so much better (& experienced) at getting their message across than Labour, &, IMHO, they will give Corbyn a serious kicking in 2020.

          I honestly believe that the majority of people in this country see people on benefits as ‘scroungers’ & as such, are not particularly bothered about them.

          As ever, OOAA.

          • Bizarrely people seem to think that people on benefits are scroungers, even when it includes them – such as pensioners and people on tax credits.

            The Tory spin machine is not subtle but it is effective. Corbyn is going to be pilloried. the only question is whether that has the desired effect or not. I suspect he will not shake the Michael Foot II tag.

      • You can spin the narrative any way you like Ian. The fact is Corbyn has managed to do something that no other politician has been able to do for quite some time – generate political interest among the young. Feel free to disagree on the political detail. But you seem to be rubbishing people simply for having enthusiasm, and it makes you appear cynical, condescending and rather old.

          • Do you want political passion or not? No doubt, the passion suits you when it’s aligned with your own political direction, but when it doesn’t you resort to specious analogies with religion and faith. Those same arguments have been made against Osbourne and Cameron and their ‘neoliberal dogma’. I don’t find it very hepful to the discussion.

            • Try responding to what I’ve posted rather than indulging in an incoherent rant. So sorry you didn’t find my ‘specious analogies’ ‘helpful’. I’ll try to do better in future.
              As for young people being energised, I’ll try to contain my enthusiasm. There’s a reason words such as ‘juvenile’, ‘immature’ and ‘naive’ are used as pejoratives when it comes to serious issues.

  52. I don’t agree with a lot of the comments above. I don’t consider Corbyn extreme and the people I know who voted for him are not political idiots.

    I think Cameron’s politics are extreme (extremely harmful) and all the other candidates were offering was a continuation of the sort of politics that I have absolutely no interest in anymore (the same old trading of petty insults, the ineffectual point scoring, etc, that can be found in some of the comments above).

  54. “Hi Tom, it’s Jeremy. Bit of a problem. I seem to be double booked. I’ve got to an NHS Event on Sunday morning in Camden,. On the other hand, there’s an interview with Andrew Marr on TV. Which do you think I should accept?”

    “Well, I think you’re probably quite tired. We’re all getting on! Maybe appearing in front of a couple of hundred people you know would be a bit less stressful than talking to someone who might ask questions in front of millions. It’s a tricky one – I know, perhaps I could fill in. Of course, I’ll stress my full backing for you of course.”

    “Thanks Tom. By the way, what was that book you were reading the other day – I think the writer might have been Scottish, although you said he was Italian – Mac something,”

  56. When somebody makes a point of twice calling the newly-elected leader of their party ‘ Serially disloyal,’ and then agonises about whether or not they can remain in the party, I think the answer is obvious: if they place such a premium on loyalty, they should indeedmove on. If theyhave any honour, no other option remains open to them.Who knows, they might well find themselves surrounded by like-minded souls who, like them, have had the MATURITY to, ‘Just get over Iraq,’
    Then indeed a new day will dawn, will it not?

    • How do you feel about the “honour” of the man who rebelled hundreds of times against Tony Blair’s whip, when Blair was his elected leader? I would’ve thought that, seeing as his positions clearly put him at odds with the policies of his party at the time, the “honourable” thing to do would’ve been to resign the Labour whip and stand as an independent after, say, the fiftieth rebellion. Presumably it would’ve been clear to him at that point that he and his leadership had reached such a deep and long-standing parting of the ways.

      But no. He continued to stand as Labour. I wonder why?

        • I didn’t say he was, because I didn’t use the phrase “spirit of Labour” or anything like it. He was disloyal to the party whip, in concrete terms, by voting against it 533 times. When I call him disloyal, I’m speaking factually, not in vague value judgements.

          I’m being told I should leave the party because I disagree with the views of the new leadership. I’m interested to know from the person who suggested it why this should apply to me when apparently it didn’t apply to Corbyn at the time.

          Swimming against the tide of the party then: good! Principled! Swimming against the tide of the party now: bad! Join the Tories, Tory boy!

          • No. I certainly think you should not leave the party, for the same reason JC stayed in the party: it is a broad church. But, nevertheless, it is clear that in this election he has won by a big margin.

          • Ah, fuck it. Look, my candidates took a hell of a beating, I’m pissed off, depressed and pessimistic. Absolutely the last thing I should be doing is fighting a losing battle on the internet.

            We lost. I’m really very fucking sad about it. Nuff said.

  57. So Jezza passes up his first opportunity to talk to the nation, as it were, by getting Tom Watson to do the Andrew Marr Show, and HE lets us know how important the Shadow Cabinet is, by telling Labour MPs that there’s always someone else who can do. Front bench job. Silly me, I thought they were going to be the Opposition, but I see that they really want to be at fringe meetings, and what used to be smoke-filled committee rooms. Get a grip, chaps.

  60. Alternatively, one could suggest that the Corbyn supporters might do the honourable thing and resign in order to refight their seats. Their main policy values and proposals seem significantly different from those espoused in the May manifesto in terms of the economy, defence, immigratíon and more.

  61. This is like a football team winning on penalties after a goalless draw now swaggering around, saying the opposition is useless and finished. The opposition is taking some risks, sure, but they have to change the team and the way they play in order to score goals.

    In the 2000s, the Tories had been humped 5-0. At that time, they could have had a resurrected Princess Diana at the helm and Labour would still have won the election. What we are seeing now is not the same thing at all. The team that won a goalless draw on penalties have decided that this is how to win. It can be – but that happens when both teams play in exactly the same way.

  62. Jings, what a depressing thread. For me it’s simple. Almost everyone I know from young to old is disillusioned and highly cynical re politics and politicians – lying self-serving bastards every single one of them. Corbyn appears to be something different. Agree or disagree with his views (and some of them views are frankly bonkers) he looks like someone with real and proper convictions. Those convictions will most likely never ever get him elected as PM but for the first time in decades there seems to be a politician who is not a lying self-serving bastard. Ring the bells and keep them ringing.

  63. People across political divides have been saying what a decent and nice guy Corbyn is. And many have commented on how refreshing it is to hear a politician simply and honestly expressing his convictions without spin or equivocation. Thing is, they say the same, respectively, about Michael Gove and Nigel Farage. It doesn’t make them – or him – right.

      • Gove is famously a lovely man on a personal level: courteous, kind, funny, softly-spoken. His policies and beliefs are eye-poppingly neocon-Tory, of course, but he’s renowned for being a good guy.

        (Which is one of our problems on the left of centre: our tendency to think that we have a monopoly on niceness, or that leftiness is in any way correlated with it.)

        Farage, on the other hand, is clearly an arsehole.

        • Fair comment – as I said, I wasn’t sure. I obviously don’t know Gove very well apart from his presentation in the media.

          Interestingly, Peter Oborne was on Any Questions recently and said that the politicians with the nastiest reputations were often the nicest in private and vice versa. He cited Norman Tebbit and Tony Blair as examples of this.

        • Entirely agree with Bob. I met with Gove a few times about a decade ago when he was a Shadow Cabinet Minister. Because of his then responsibilities, he had an interest in the area I then worked in, so arranged an initial meeting. He was a genuinely great bloke – fully engaged with the topic, intelligent, kind, humorous.
          The left are, of course, unfailingly wonderful human beings, even as they label their opponents as filth and scum and ‘lower than vermin’.

          • The other thing about Gove, of course, is he delivers. You want something done, give it to Gove. Whether you think the result is a good thing is another matter of course, but if all ministers were as competent as Gove we might see more things actually completed. I repeat – whether this is a good thing on the ground is, of course, another matter!

    • Well there are two concepts here:
      1. Presentation
      2. Policies

      I don’t think anyone has suggested that because they like 1 they agree with 2. Just that 1 is refreshing and I look forward to seeing how that plays out in, for instance, the playground atmosphere of debate that PMQ’s has become.

  64. Oh god, he’s only gone and made John McDonnell shadow chancellor.

    Actually, this might be quite a clever move. In the 1980s, McDonnell managed to produce Labour Herald as a full colour tabloid, at a time when Tribune, despite a larger circulation and in black & white, was constantly on the edge of collapse. Clearly good with accounts then.

    [looks to camera 2, accompanied by loud rattling sound from nearby cupboard]

  67. The way the press have gone after Corbyn in the last 48 hours is savage. It makes the mockery of Miliband’s bacon sandwich look positively playful. It’s going to be a rough time.

    • And he’s walking straight into it.

      Did he say at the refugee rally immediately after his victory “Sing something, Billy. Anything will do. ‘Tiptoe Through the Tulips’, if you like. Just no fucking Red Flag, understood?” No, he did not. Instead, he sang along, because he knows all the words. Of course he does.

      Did he say to the reporters asking him for a comment on his shadow-cabinet appointments late last night “I’ll make a full statement tomorrow”. No, he did not. Instead, he stared ahead of him and strode on purposefully, muttering that they were “bothering” him.

      His life has changed whether he likes it or not. As a backbencher, he could afford to pretend that politics is principally about policy. As the new leader of the opposition, he seems to be struggling to cope with how it works at the level he has no previous experience of. He’ll probably learn how the game is played soon enough. And there is a precedent. It didn’t Michael Foot long, after his elevation to the same position, before he made a no-doubt-reluctant visit to the barber’s and strung a tie round his neck.

      • As a backbencher, he could afford to pretend that politics is principally about principle. That’s the joy of being in opposition, even when your party’s in Government. You lose, but at least you feel the warm glow of having done the right thing. Now he actually has to win things, which inevitably involves a degree of compromise. I’m not sure his supporters have realised this yet, or that they will back him when he trades principle for progress.

      • Jeremy desperately riffles thorough his Filofax and hopes that the phone numbers for Alastair Campbell and Peter Mandelson are still valid.

        But sadly they both changed their numbers on Saturday.

    • The difference being that Miliband ate a bacon sandwich.

      In the last 24 hours, Corbyn has used his victory speech to slag off the press, refused to speak to them, been caught on camera singing The Red Flag and appointed as his Shadow Chancellor a man who, whatever his other qualities, is previously on record as saluting the “bravery” of the IRA.

      He’s made it quite clear he doesn’t care what the press think or say. That’s probably admirable, but it has a cost.

      • I think he’s made it clear that he doesn’t care what a large swathe of the voting populace thinks or says. That’s the way to win hearts and minds. Not helped by the Trade Union bigwigs threatening strikes and civil unrest to topple the current Government. Thanks chaps, that makes me feel really inclined towards your brand of politics.

  68. Joy of joys! He’s got Diane Abbott in the shadow cabinet. Every time that condescending, hypocritical salad dodger gets on the news it must cost 10,000 votes.

    Really, Corbyn is the gift that just keeps on giving.

  69. I wouldn’t be surprised if he nominates other Cabinet members whenever there’s a media interview involved, at least for the short term. He’s clearly much more comfortable speaking to his supporters, and isn’t ready yet to cross swords with those who may question his plans on behalf of the public. If he thinks he’s being ‘bothered’ at the moment, he’s got a shock coming when he realises how much more intrusive the bothering is going to get.

  72. Anyone who’s appointed to a position of great responsibility should be more than aware that the first impressions garnered from words and deeds are absolutely crucial in forming opinion of that individual. With that in mind, what have we had so far?
    His speech, to my mind, reeked of paranoia when he attacked the Press.. Neither he, nor Watson, strike me as valiant defenders of a free press.
    His first action is then to attend a ‘Welcome to Refugees’gala. All very admirable, I’m sure, but I’d like to see how that plays out in the Northern constituencies where UKIP ran second to Labour.
    He goes to a pub where he sings that fusty old relic, ‘The Red Flag’.
    He turns down the opportunity to speak on the most-watched political show on TV, instead sending his Deputy who then reveals he has his own agenda.
    He appoints as Shadow Chancellor a man who has recommended that Bobby Sands and other IRA. members be decorated for bravery. Again, I’d like to see how that plays out in the wider world.
    He ignores the Press asking questions about his appointments, gets rather shirty with them, and fails to take the opportunity to explain why he has appointed them and advertise their qualities to the public.
    All very inspiring.

    • You’ve just touched on one aspect I was surprised to see overlooked in the weekend coverage: this is an absolute godsend for UKIP. Labour haemorrhaged votes to them at the election, and I suspect that one look at Corbyn will only compound that trend amongst certain demographics.

      • Yes, I can. It’s a dirty business, no doubt, but you take it on the chin. He has plenty of opportunities to get his points across, but whining about the Press is never a good look.
        I’ll actually go further and suggest he’s the type of authoritarian that would love to control the Press.

        • Oh, OK then.

          Careful note taken of your lack of disapproval of the blatant lies in the press.

          Hey! I have an idea. Maybe if the press actually acted responsibly, the slightest hint of press control may not even have arisen.
          Free press does not mean responsibility free press.

          • ‘careful note taken’. Blimey! I know you’re a ref, but you can take it to extremes.
            Corbyn has had, and will have, plenty of chances to get his points across in the media and correct any ‘blatant lies’ out there. Turning down the first opportunity to appear on the Marr show and answer softball questions was a bizarre decision.
            Given the many hostages to fortune both he and McDonnell have already given, the press aren’t going to have to bother creating any untruths.
            Politicians are the main perpetrators of lies, half-truths and evasions, so I’m all in favour of their being scrutinised and attacked by our press.
            I’m a fan of our reptilian hacks when they’re taking on powerful forces. Much less so when it’s the powerless.
            Our press are much less deferential, pious and pompous than their US equivalents and all the better for it. US papers are deadly dull and unreadable.
            Corbyn strikes me as the type who’d be happiest with a government-funded propaganda rag detailing the latest thoughts of Chairman Corbyn.

            • I was jibing at your idea that Corbyn will have to suck up the idea that he will be lied about by the Press and play along with the game. You’re presenting a particularly one eyed view of this if that is your actual view.

              (As a side note, and accuse me of over sensitivity if you like, but I haven’t thrown any personal jibes in your direction)

              I think you should also think a bit before making big, sweeping generalizations. “US papers are unreadable”? Really? I read the WaPo, the NY Times and occasionally the NY Post. Just as readable as the British Press, and in some cases more so. They also tend to be less sensationalist when separating news reporting from editorial. I’m not sure the newspapers here would have serially misrepresented something in quite the way that the British press did Corbyn.

              I’m all in favor of the politicians being held to account – but I’d like it to be done truthfully and honestly. That isn’t being done. I have a problem with that. You obviously don’t.

              • There’s always going to be an element of interpretation or misinterpretation, if you wish. What is ‘truth’? As I’ve said, as a prominent politician, he has a multitude of opportunities to refute any ‘lies’. He’s not alone in being subject to attack on a daily basis. I’m not being ‘one-eyed’. The attacks on Sturgeon and Salmond from all parts of the media are a great deal more consistent and sustained than anything Corbyn will face, given he has the Mirror and Guardian, plus some in the BBC, to rely on. Attacks come with the territory. ‘If you can’t stand the heat etc..’
                I, genuinely, find the US papers nigh-on unreadable. Stiflingly dull and dreary.
                The ‘ref’ comment was a mild joke about your ‘taking note’..

  74. I like the fact that Corbyn is being difficult with the media. I find it repulsive to think that Murdoch believes that he can control who has power. Just bugger off, you ridiculous old coot (Murdoch, not Corbyn).

    Let’s not forget that we have had all politicians playing the media game for a very long time. Throughout my lifetime, surveys tell us that Journalists dwell in the very bottom quartile of “most trusted” professions, alongside estate agents, used car salesmen and er…politicians.

    The PM rarely (never?) stops for a chat with journalists. He gives interviews when the conditions are just so and he knows what the line of questioning is going to be in advance. His behaviour is exactly the same as Corbyn’s – but Cameron will have security surrounding him as he’s bundled into a car, with his grim “I’m important” face on.

    The Red Flag is a Labour movement song and has been for as long as I remember. If you want your toes curled without waiting for the NHS to do it for you, see the footage of Kinnock at a Labour Party conference getting the party to sing along to a new song that he’d commissioned called “Meet the Challenge – Make the Change”.

  75. May you live in interesting times…

    I think the nutjobbery is going to overshawdow the good things and do for them. There is the breath of fresh air factor aspect to attract the disillusioned but such gains will be outweighed by those who want the centreist approach, fleeing. The Tories if smart will aim to appeal more to these disposessed individuals. The Libdems might benefit too.

  76. I once agreed in a moment of ego inflation to take on my sons Under 14’s Sunday football team, I hadn’t really thought it through. After the first accusation of nepotism for playing my son, or the first time an opposition manager shoved his finger in my chest at some supposed wrong doing or the first irate father questioning why his son was playing right back when he was obviously our best centre forward, the first heavy defeat that brought reality crashing down over my ego and idealism I realised I’d made a mistake, I was out of my depth, by then it was too late. Still at least it didn’t happen in front of a nation or a voracious media storm. I actually feel sorry for him, he really has no idea what he’s let himself in for…….

  77. There is a possibility that he could be PM. The media onslaught and Parliamentary Labour’s reception is similar to that given to Ken Livingston and yet he still managed to secure two terms as London’s Lord Mayor.

  78. It’s interesting that Ken Clarke believes Corbyn as Prime Minister can’t be ruled out. If there’s another recession (not out of the question) and/or with the forthcoming shitstorm of the EU ref, he thinks things are a lot more up for grabs than some of his colleagues seem to think.

    He also talks about Corbyn’s “non-politician appeal.” What I find really interesting is that we’ve had slick, telegenic PPE grads (Blair, Cameron), then full-time actors pretending to be ‘not-like-stuffy-politicians’ (Farage, Boris Johnson), and now we have a guy who isn’t remotely telegenic and couldn’t act to save himself; so how far his genuine-ness will appeal remains to be seen. Bearing in mind the widespread levels of cynicism about about Westminster and its antics.

    Personally I can’t imagine Corbyn as PM but obviously Clarke knows vastly more about these things than any of us, so it’ll be fascinating to see what happens.

    • I’d agree although, as I say, that’s based on our lack of knowledge as opposed to someone like Clarke who’s on the inside and been through a few major wins and losses in his time.

      It’ll be interesting to see how far Corbyn’s ‘un-spun’ appeal goes in these cynical times, and how (or if) it changes the landscape.

  81. ‘It would help enormously if the smell of crankishness which still clings to the Socialist movement could be dispelled. If only the sandals and the pistachio-coloured shirts could be put in a pile and burnt and every vegetarian, teetotaller and creeping Jesus sent home to Welwyn Garden City to do his yoga exercises quietly’ – The Road to Wigan Pier
    I bloody love Orwell.

  83. I see Corbyn has got off to a good start by appointing a loony IRA sympathiser to his shadow cabinet.

    Now he’s pictured refusing to sing along with the national anthem. Now, I’m no huge patriot or royalist in that sense, but in other countries (the USA for example) it would be unthinkable for a potential leader of the country to make a deliberately provocative and unpatriotic gesture such as this. He’d probably never hold public office again.

    And we’re only a few days into the Corbyn era. It’s going to be an entertaining ride, I think.

    • Didn’t take long for the wheels to start falling off. Of course there are those saying he shouldn’t have to sing about what he doesn’t believe in but that is naive and he is being politically incompetent. All his antics are doing is focusing attention on him and away from government activities, which is a gift for them. They don’t even have to create their own diversions from their more toxic policies.

        • It’s a stupid and ignorant thing to have done, entirely in keeping with the ‘diplomatic relationships’ he’s had in the past with all manner of organisations who hate England and/or ‘Western values’. Still, top marks Jeremy on sticking to your principles. You wouldn’t want to go upsetting Gerry and the Islamist loons you have knocked about with in the past. You’ve stuck to your principles, good man.

        • Spot on, and Corbyn has behaved like an irresponsible and sulky teenager throughout his political career, showing no loyalty to his party, his country or anything else apart from his precious ‘principles’. High principles are fine when you are young and idealistic – the fact that Corbyn has been ‘endorsed’ by the likes of Charlotte Church and Russell Brand speaks volumes for the kind of schoolyard politics we are moving into – but most of us (and indeed most politicians worth their salt) leave behind the high ideals as we become older, live more of life, become more mature and pragmatic, and see issues less in black and white but in the shades of grey that they generally are. Corbyn has never grown up in that sense, never adjusted his thinking to take on board the real world. His refusal to sing the national anthem was profoundly disrespectful to the nation, and to those that fought and died to give him the luxury of free expression. His apparent desire for confrontation with ‘establishment’ values is neither refreshing nor to be welcomed at a time when there are ample concerns both at home and abroad that need measured sensible debate and resolution, not trendy envelope pushing and designer anarchy.

          • “profoundly disrespectful to the nation”? Do me a favour. Dishonestly mouthing platitudes is the usual recourse to either staying below the parapet or getting oneself off the hook in Westminsterland, and it sucks.

            Inveterate non-conformist he may be, but surely ANYONE has the right not to sing a specific song as part of a memorial service?

            Your sentence pronouncing upon the severity of his disrespect ends with a reminder that what was fought for was “free expression”.

            • But no one is suggesting that Corbyn should be forced to sing the anthem, or arrested for failing to do so. They’re questioning his judgement, and perhaps taste, in abstaining.

              Free expression includes the freedom to pronounce someone else a dickhead because of what they’ve said/done/refused to sing. Free expression is not freedom from criticism.

            • I agree, if what you are saying is that the content of the national anthem is outdated and jingoistic nonsense. Whatever you, I or Jeremy Corbyn may think about the sentiments expressed, the fact is that participating in the national anthem is an expression of solidarity with the nation, not the monarchy, and in choosing to opt out of that expression in such a context Jeremy Corbyn shows very poor judgement. That kind of posturing might go down a storm at a constituency meeting in Islington, but on the world stage it is completely misplaced. And that’s not an issue of Left or Right, just the cold hard reality.

          • The idea that not singing the national anthem is disrespectful to the nation is not one I agree with at all. I’m a republican who is at best unconvinced by the existence of God, so the idea of asking him to protect a monarch is never going to sit right with me. Doesn’t mean I hate England, or indeed love it less than the old fella down the road with his commemorative Royal Wedding plates, and I rather resent the insinuation that it does. There’s a whole hell of a lot I love about this country, just not the part of it that goes on biscuit tins or tourist tat in London.

            • I’m a rabid republican and an agnostic. If I was at a war memorial I’d still sing the national anthem and I wouldn’t feel particularly compromised in doing so, any more than I feel compromised when I politely close my eyes during prayer at a Christian funeral, or when I wear the kippah at the Jewish wedding I’m attending in a couple of weeks’ time.

              Not everything is about you and your principles. Sometimes you have to play along out of respect and because it’s not appropriate for you to be the centre of attention.

              Believe me: this is a lesson is took me most of my teens to learn. I was the high prince of the dramatic assertion of individuality and wasted no opportunity to play Rosa Parks. Then I grew up.

              • As often happens on these long threads I think we are ending up talking at cross purposes. I’m not saying you should be rocking the boat all the time and dying for your principles over and over. I’m not applauding Corbyn’s decision, I’m not even really talking about it. I am saying that I don’t think it’s right to make the national anthem a test of patriotism, and that patriotism can be expressed in many ways.

                (and FWIW, I strongly disagree with the later assertion that “participating in the national anthem is an expression of solidarity with the nation”. It is if you’re singing Land Of My Fathers, or The Star Spangled Banner, but God Save The Queen? Nah.)

                • It’s one of those things where I’m responding to one aspect of your post (the religion and republicanism bit), rather than the totality.

                  I agree that there’s more than one way to be patriotic, and that people have to work out what they’re personally comfortable with.

                  What I don’t agree with is that singing God Save the Queen somehow compromises your Republicanism or lack of faith, any more than my wearing a kippah compromises my lack of Judaism.

                  Sometimes you do things because it’s the done thing; I think most people get that, and only a real churl would have considered Corbyn a hypocrite (as has been suggested elsewhere on this thread) had he played along.

                  I should add that I also gave myself far too much credit in that final sentence.

                  • to respond in turn to one aspect of your post….

                    “What I don’t agree with is that singing God Save the Queen somehow compromises your Republicanism or lack of faith, any more than my wearing a kippah compromises my lack of Judaism.”

                    That’s not what I, perhaps too clumsily, am trying to get across. You are quite right that in adult society sometimes it is best to just rub along. My point is that not singing GSTQ doesn’t compromise your love of country. That’s it. I’ve ended up talking to you when really it’s Bungliemutt I’m responding to, but hey, it’s the internet.

                  • which is one of the reasons why I don’t think singing it is an expression of national solidarity.

                    An interesting thing I’ve observed through living in Wales, Ireland and Japan is that, as a general rule, people in those countries are far far more patriotic in their everyday lives than we are in England. I suspect that this is down to the proximity of a bigger and more powerful neighbour with whom they have a shared, not entirely happy, history (even the patriotism of the USA has roots in the War of Independence). We don’t have that, and we have to grub around for symbols and expressions of patriotism* that seem to come easier to other countries.

                    *I am getting really sick of typing this word.

          • Well, my dearly departed Grandad – who fought in WW1 – would be applauding JC every step of the way. Some who fought – indeed in this case volunteered – did it for the nation, but not as he was fond of describing them “those fucking spongers”.

    • So, you’d prefer an avowed republican sing the royalist national anthem, thereby leaving himself open to charges of rank hypocrisy.

      Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

      Differences between the USA and UK:
      1. Anthem is the flag, and thereby the nation. That’s a very different concept to singing about the preservation of one person.
      2. Despite Sanders’ rise, there is no chance of a candidate who disavows God getting elected. Is that the model you think we should be following? Let us not forget that this is a nation that forces millions of kids to utter the words “under God” each morning.

  85. Too right I’ve been watching.

    Funny how it’s taken someone from the 60s generation (just) to make politics interesting again.
    I know whose record collection I’d rescue in a fire – I knew Blair was a phoney from his date of birth.

    Didn’t think I’d be saying in 2015, as I did this morning, ‘I’m DEFINITELY watching Prime Minister’s Question Time today’.

    Advice to Corbyn…..be yourself and keep talking about health, education and food banks. That’s ‘food banks’.

  86. Corbyn is under fire from all sides – media, Conservatives, much of his own parliamentary party. I think it’s clear it doesn’t matter what he does, people will find a way to find fault with it. As a republican he found his own way to pay respect to the war dead. Politically naïve and electorally dangerous that may be, but I tend to think Hugo Rifkind got it right when he tweeted the following:

    “I’ve given it some thought, & I’ve concluded that there is nobody alive who might have voted for Corbyn but now won’t because of the anthem”.

    From the start, Corbyn said he was focusing on policy, not personality. but I intend to assess him on the political substance of his leadership rather than the traps of presentational trivia that others set for him.

    If he is to find a a way through the shit storm ahead, it will be, like with his leadership campaign, by sticking to what he believes in and stating it clearly without getting tied up in the agenda set by the largely hostile mainstream media.

  87. That UK press. Over half of the online/print media combined – by readership – is owned by Murdoch and Rothermere. Chuck in the Barclays and Desmond and you get more than two-thirds. You either compromise with them because of their wealth and influence or you can tell them to go and do one. The Sun, the Times, Sunday Times, Sunday Sun, the Telegraph, Sunday Telegraph, Daily Mail, Mail on Sunday, Metro, Daily Express, Sunday Express, Daily Star and Daily Star Sunday put together ultimately represent the views of five people. So who chooses the government and its policies? More than 46 million UK citizens on the electoral register or a mega-rich five-a-side team?
    Further, is realpolitik compromise with these guys ‘grown up’? At a time when print ruled the land and people tended to buy one newspaper a day, then maybe. ‘Terrible busness, Faustian pact, rather we didn’t, but needs must…’ and so on. At a time when there’s a generational and tech switch away from the print press to online where multiple sources of news and information are much easier to access, as the print press is in a serious sales decline, tactically it may be time for someone to test the emperor’s new clothes story. After all, the whole of the London media basically told Scotland a year ago that we’d be nuts to vote yes, while every Scottish newspaper – bar the Sunday Herald – echoed that perspective. The result was that 45% of voters ignored the traditional information channels and voted yes irrespective. Subsequently, new websites like Bella Caledonia, Common Space and the derided bête noire of #indyref, Wings Over Scotland, have not gone away – although clearly this doesn’t mean that the Daily Record is blowing like litter down the streets of Glasgow while its readers turn wholesale to Common Space and a series on a 61-year-old’s dealings with the benefits system. But equally, there are alternatives. The notion that ‘compromising’ with a tiny group of power hungry billionaires is ‘grown-up’ because ‘it’s the pragmatic option’ is really a bit 20th century. Things have changed.

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