I think that the new Nick Cave album deserves a little more than ‘there’s a new one out, it’s really good’. Just listened and it is. If you count the two Birthday Party albums (or swap these out for Grinderman 1 and 2) it is his twentieth studio album, over a forty-one year career. Time perhaps to take stock.
Firstly, as a singer-songwriter the company he is keeping now is surely the very first rank: Dylan, Young, Bowie, Prince, Cohen, Mitchell, Morrison, Springsteen, King. He might only sell a fraction of the records these folk did (and Cohen was hardly a radio-friendly unit shifter) but since when has that mattered? Personally, as a post-punk child, I would place his twenty albums above Cohen and King, and though very different the equal of Mitchell, Morrison and Springsteen. I am aware these are some of the Aword’s holiest sites, but hey hear me out.
Secondly, the consistency. Twenty albums in and has he made a genuinely bad album? A few tread water definitely – Henry’s Dream and Nocturama are perhaps the first that come to mind. The Lyre of Orpheus/Abbatoir Dreams is certainly divisive. Some opt for the Cave descending into self-parody view. It’s one of my favourites, top 5 definitely.
By comparison Bowie’s 20th album was Earthling, Prince’s was 3-album hot mess The Crystal Ball and Dylan’s Christian era Saved. I would contend that over a 20-album stretch there is no-one, no-one who can touch him for consistency. No 14-minute instrumental jazz funk albums (Prince’s NEWS), no Down In the Groove (a record so bad it isn’t even mentioned in worst Bob Dylan album lists) or Working On A Dream (Pirate Pete says hi) in sight. Of the list above perhaps only Morrison (20 takes us to Enlightenment) can compete on consistency, but his eighties output can hardly rival the quality of Cave’s work over the past ten years. No Cliff duets either….
This leads onto the last point: here is an artist still, after 41 years, operating at the height of his powers. No comebacks, no return to forms, just a stunning body of work. About which we can only be slightly awestruck.
I might also add that having seen him live twice he is a fantastic live performer, and in the Bad Seeds the best backing band of the last forty years as well.
OUTLAW Pete. TBH, I’d rather listen to the very worst of Dylan, Springsteen etc than anything by Nick Cave – never seen the attraction myself, but many other people think differently. Good luck to them.
I’ll just say I’m up to Under The Red Sky in my Dylan odyssey and – Wiggle Wiggle? Each to his own.
I have to say I’m quite surprised that you think a couple of – granted, catchy – novelty hits elevates Jonathan King to a place among such exalted company..
I agonised over Will Young as well but decided to be generous.
I was thinking more of the Love And Pride Hitmakers. I mean, it was ok, but…
About five years ago I did a @dave-amitri with the Bad Seeds first 10 albums. If memory serves the first two albums are great, the third is cover versions and the fifth album is pretty poor (The Carny aside). Henry’s Dream is a bit patchy as mentioned in the OP. Aside from that I really enjoyed the albums, there is a progression perhaps as the band’s line up changes and improves.
Who are Cave’s peers? Certainly there aren’t many writers or artists from the 80’s or 90’s who have been so prolific and have a high standard. Maybe PJ Harvey will be evaluated in a similar way in 10 years time.
PJ Harvey is a good shout – the best English songwriter of the past 30 years. Bubbling under and let’s see what her 20th album is like
This King whom you repeatedly mention, I might just be having a brain fart but I can’t think who you mean. Carole isn’t thought of as an albums artist of that category, and I’m pretty sure it isn’t Jonathan.
I’ve no issue with Nick Cave. I have a greatest hits I probably last played a decade ago, but in general I out him in the category of good things without having any inclination to explore much further. I might lack the necessary ability to take him very, very seriously.
I always like to hear a eulogy for an artist by someone who clearly has drawn immense enjoyment from their catalogue, particularly when it’s someone canonical like Nick Cave, who I’ve never ‘got’. So, thanks for starting this thread.
I’m hoping you draw in a wealth of descriptive comment about Cave and his oeuvre (copyright HP), and even that you expand a bit on why he’s so great, yourself. I don’t think you really did that in the op. I think it’d be nice for those of us who have never found a way in, to hear a bit more. Though maybe this is a thread for Cave fans only, in which case I’ll butt out.
Also, who’s King? Ben E? Albert? Surely not the Love & Pride merchants?
Mark?
That defeat siezed from the jaws of victory – 6/10.
Or do you mean the Level 42 slap monkey?
Always liked Elvis, never liked Cave (especially after that time in Brighton – have I ever told you….?)
Go on, go on, go on, go on…
Glad that I’m not the only one who doesn’t get NC. I have tried, but apart from a couple
of tracks (Back in My Arms being far and away the best), he just doesn’t do it for me.
Into.
Whatever.
Nick Cave is one of those artists I want to like just never been hit by the train yet.
I really thought the moment came a few years ago with Dig Lazarus Dig. Lots of playing time, but I never quite got the urge to go back and discover more.
I think it’s been stuck dormant on the shelf for about a decade now – might give it a listen in the near future (now I’ve been reminded).
Not sure I’m missing out really (or am I?)
Is the new album available on compact disc yet? Asks a lazy former Krokus fan.
No….May!
Saw him (them) live once, was pretty good. Don’t really get him either, not a brilliant singer and his songs lack melody to me.
Catnip don’t go down with dogs, but he certainly has something. No huge fan of his earlier work, maybe one or two, a greatest hits etc, but, this last decade he has produced nothing short of an astounding body of work. Not so keen live, as he has to play some old, but as a youngster, if he can keep it up, he’ll go far.
Hear hear!
I don’t know him that well and have generally liked what I heard without getting especially excited either. He’s certainly a charismatic bloke but I suspect it’s sizzle without the meat*. However I shall dig deeper be be ready to be proved wrong.
* This animus may be because he bashed Kylie’s head in and chucked her in a stream.
Curate’s egg time for me. Abattoir Blues and Push The Sky Away are absolutely fantastic records. He loses me when he does the “I’m a bit depraved, me” routine, or does one of his many* songs about circus freaks, though.
Like nearly every artist in pop music you probably only need half a dozen LPs
*May not be true but it certainly feels that way
I think you might be on to something. I have only started to fully appreciate him in the last ten years, before that he kind of passed me by [edit – I just checked and the first album I bought of his was The Batman’s Call, which I am shocked to discover was released in 1997!]. Right now I would say his recent work is his best [but that could change as I delve deeper] and there aren’t many [any?] other musicians you can say that about, for most the opposite is true. At his peak he sits comfortably along side the greats and it’s interesting to note that his personality seems to have mirrored this artistic growth, [read his Red Hand Files if you haven’t already discovered that treasure trove of wisdom and compassion]
I haven’t been as enamoured of the new album yet. Early days, though.
‘The Batman’s Call’…”WHERE ARE THEY?” 😏
Shirley you remember his collaboration with Prince?
🤦♂️
Into My Arms Of Orion, perhaps?
He’s wonderful as a recording artist*. Like anyone with a career this long, he’s had his flat or less than good periods, but in the main he’s pretty incredible. From Her To Eternity, Let Love In, Your Funeral My Trial, Murder Ballads, The Boatman’s Call, Abbatoir Blues – these are all albums for the ages as far as I’m concerned. Hard to better. And every NC record has a couple of songs most artists would sell their families to have written – even Nocturama has He Wants You on it, and that’s one of my favourite songs by anyone.
*He’s a terrible prose writer, though. Pretentious, pompous, wordy, like some kind of goth Will Self. I remember when my kids were younger their primary teachers tried to get them to use what they called “Wow Words” and I often feel little Nicky Cave was paying too much attention in his equivalent of those lessons.
Oh Christ, his prose. My mate gave me a copy of ‘And The Ass’ one Christmas. Holy Moly what a load of baloney.
A little while ago there was some blog piece of his doing the rounds in answer to a fan question and so many people were going on about how the erudition and beauty of the writing, whereas it made me think if you think that’s either erudite or beautiful, you need to read more books. It’s a shame: his shortform lyrics are great, but his prose is like a stupid person’s idea of what an “intellectual” might sound like.
if you’ve ever seen a picture of Cave writing his first book there’s no wonder it’s like it is. Off his head in a tiny room stacked high with notes.
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2016/nov/17/bleddyn-butcher-best-photograph-nick-cave-berlin
For some reason, maybe just the gothic glare thing, Cave is, for me, one of those artists I’ve known about for a long time, have seen perform on, say, Jools ‘Later’ a few times and usually been fairly impressed, and have casually bought about half a dozen of his play-once-then-shelve albums over the years while lunchtime browsing in Fopp. So I’ve heard and invested. And yet, and yet….
No idea why but his work hasn’t ever demanded that I listen again: I’ve bought some of his albums because – for five minutes or so – I’ve thought each might be the one to open my eyes to his world, but thus far I’m afraid that hope has withered each time without delivering.
To respond to the question in the title: better than this thread might suggest…
No Cliff duets? Not yet. One lives in hope.
Mistletoe And Absinthe.
I don’t believe in an interventionist Satan.
I have a lot of time for Nick Cave. The Birthday Party brought excitement and jeopardy to the early eighties. They were scary live. The Bad Seeds albums can be a bit samey but all have at least 3/4 excellent tracks. Abattoir Blues/Lyre Of Orpheus is my favourite with Dig, Lazarus Dig a close second. I really enjoy Grinderman too. Push The Sky Away is superb but I’m finding his most recent albums a bit tired (though his latest hasn’t had six listens yet).
Mick Harvey is a big miss and Warren Ellis would be even bigger.
He’s matured and aged really well. He has tamed his inner fire, probably by taking fewer drugs and some of the edge to his music has gone. He’s at his best getting all biblical on our asses. Still, I doubt he would be violent towards Kylie these days. His grief over his son is awful to see but is now a part of him. To his credit, he’s doing his best to remain positive and stay true to himself.
I’d definitely rank him alongside those artists in the OP.
One of those people (like Harvey funnily enough) that I feel I ought to like but …
Whenever his songs pop up in the background of some moody Beeb drama I think yes that sounds great but have struggled to find much that holds my attention. Undoubtedly a top lyricist but for me musically not strong enough to stand in the same hallowed company of Springsteen, Morrison et al. But this post does make me think I need to give him another go.
I expect he’s planning his next big house extension for shortly after the next – and final – series of Peaky Blinders is broadcast.
What the hell is wrong with the baked-potato eating East 17 hitmaker?
Great live but I only have a handful of albums.
Murder Ballads, a live album (bonus CD with a best of) and that sumptuous best of box from a few years ago. I have others but they stay welded to the shelf.
Like Shakey, or Macca, I’m very happy to know he’s still in the game. But I don’t need to hear any more.
I think he’s a great songwriter but I rarely listen to his stuff now. Mostly favourite tracks from Abbatoir Blues/Lyre Of Orpheus when I do, these days. His Glasto performance from a few years back was very enjoyable.
He definitely has something in common with Leonard Cohen. His clutch of best songs might well be amongst your favourites (as Cohen’s are mine), but you’re unlikely to return to much of his stuff. Extremely talented, but a rarefied taste, perhaps.
Leonard Cohen’s songs benefited hugely from others covering him. His songs suit the female voice especially well.
Perhaps Nick’s need the cover treatment too? PJ Harvey’s Red Right Hand is pretty impressive.
I live in fear of the day when Simon Cowell or one of those other singers who sing all the right notes discovers Cave and has them all singing his more straight forward ballads on prime time ITV.
Just remembered Johnny Cash did a very good Nick cave cover. https://youtu.be/gaIo1trTpKQ
‘Olly Murs Murders Ballads’…
hey, we could be on to something!
Her left one’s not too bad either.
Have you tried the veal…?
Gosh. Sorry, Peej, but that’s a phoned-in, mealy-mouthed, whimpering dirge of a cover.
It gives me the creeps. Which is what it’s meant to do. It’s in the style of White Chalk, an album I really like.
Snoop Doggs is way better….
https://youtu.be/hACIJUdXlUs
Judging by the consensus that he seems appealing and albums have been purchased but not played more than once, he must think he’s a lot more popular than he actually is. Because of course a handful of Afterword contributors are representative.
My live experience left me impressed and moved. He had the whole crowd on his side. A warm and charismatic performer. Mr entertainer. The alternative Robbie Williams. I was no more inclined to listen to his records after the show than I was before though.
I agree with the OP. I class myself as a Nick Cave fan & think his latest release (last weeks Carnage) is really special.
I think a lot of casual fans like the idea of Nice Cave as opposed to what he actually is, whilst those who dislike him think his persona is a substitute for mediocre songs.
In my humble opinion he is an artist who still excites & always has the potential to put out a song that will floor me & make me play it on repeat for months on end.
Although his first 7 albums are patchy (albeit with some absolute gems hidden in there), I do not think he has put out a bad album since 1997. This is one hell of a purple patch & other than the first Dylan/Beatles albums, I can’t think of any other artist who has achieved that.
His soundtrack work & Grinderman projects have always been well timed to keep things fresh & although Ghosteen was a slow burner, all of his other albums have instantly hooked me & grown even more in the months following release.
If I ever had to come up with my own desert island discs, I know for sure that picking a Nick Cave song would be the hardest ask. Into My Arms is sublime, Dead Man In My Bed is just pure unadulterated power, Easy Money brims with energy, Wide Lovely Eyes is beautiful as is The Rider Song, No Pussy Blues is filth, Bright Horses makes me want to weep & Palaces of Montezuma has some of the best lyrics I have ever heard.
This new album is already stuck on repeat & is quickly moving up the Nick Cave album ranking, so here is to whatever he comes up with next as I know it will be excellent. There are not too many artists you can say that about with any confidence.
Link to my best of below if anyone wants convincing
Great post
Agreed…chunks of this thread have the feel of a 1980s NME-style backlash…mind you, Bob Dylan inspires a similar reaction in me (buy the albums, listen once, then faintly praise while not actually listening any more) – so perhaps I shouldn’t comment…each to their own and all that…
He’s no Tom Waits, Senator.
A classic example of an artist who leaves me completely cold while lauded by others. He’s on 17 studio albums so do make a post when he’s on 20. Wikipedia tells me the last 3 took him 20 years so we’ll review his place in the pantheon (arbitrary rules set by me) in 2041.
Yes Mr Waits has slowed down – Mr Cave has increased his output and evolved tremendously- mind you it took me decades to really appreciate Nick so i have some empathy for the strugglers to like him.
That depends. One From The Heart is more a studio album than a soundtrack. Orphans: Brawlers, Bawlers & Bastards is more than a compilation and could be counted as three albums in one box. He could easily qualify for the twenty album rule.
There are a lot of similarity between the two. They are talkers rather than singers, though Nick’s voice is more a conventional baritone. They both are influenced by biblical imagery and are fascinated by people on the fringe of society. They are both charismatic characters in the studio and on stage. I think Tom has more melodic flair and his ballads are more romantic and emotional (Alice would be a good shout for his best album.) Nick seems better able to dive deep into the black heart of evil, whereas Tom empathises with good people who do bad things sometimes. Tom’s albums have more sonic invention and variety, overall. Nick tends to rely on great musicians to help him out. Tom has his wife for inspiration. They both went through a long initial phase that got a bit samey. Tom at Asylum and Nick up to Abbatoir Blues. Thereafter, they found their true artistic voice and entered their most creative phase. For Tom this was the early eighties, Nick late nineties. It’s true, Tom has run out of steam somewhat and Nick is still in an imperial phase. Personally, I’d take Tom’s catalogue over Nick’s but it’s a close run thing and fortunately I can have both.
Always regarded him as “a Poor Man’s” Tom Waits
There’s no way that “Stagger Lee” would’ve got played on Junior Choice with Ed ‘Stewpot’ Stewart.
Big fan of Nick Cave – not sure why you would consider Lyre of Orpheus/Abbatoir Blues to be divisive – I love it and Nocturama for that matter. Overall I prefer his ballads rather than his shouty stuff. Red right hand must have earned him a fair few bob but it is not my favourite of his by any means nor Stagger Lee. Push the sky away I believe to be his best work but when you look at songs like Into my Arms or Brompton Oratory there is a lot to choose from.
Have to say, I still enjoy his older, shouty stuff; maybe because that’s where I first encountered him, live and on record – or possibly just an indication of my ongoing lack of “maturity”…
Funnily enough Red Right hand works great as the theme song for Peaky Blinders and its status has possibly been elevated as a result.
Seen him over twenty maybe thirty times going back to club shows in Melb.
Henry’s Dream and some great stuff on Nocturama. I love Warren Ellis incl his Dirty 3 work but in balance I prefer the classics lineup Blixa Barry Mick H etc.
I think Warren has too much influence these days, maybe filling a void and the soundtrack work is informing the Bad Seeds stuff too much.
I loved the Red Hand Files initially but tired of his earnest empathy. I skip em now.
I’m broadly similar. For me, his best work by a mile is that roughly 88-96 period, Tender Prey through to Murder Ballads. Carefully picked that latter date because I really don’t like The Boatman’s Call. After that, there’s some stuff I find completely forgettable (Abbatoir Blues / The Lyre Of Orpheus, Nocturama, Ghosteen, about half of Skeleton Tree), some okay but nothing special (And No More Shall We Part), and some that is pretty decent indeed (Dig Lazarus Dig, Push The Sky Away, the other half of Skeleton Tree). Even the good stuff is nothing next to Let Love In or The Good Son though. He does still have it live mind you – I’ve seen him about half a dozen times going back to 2001 or so, and the Skeleton Tree tour was one of the best.
…this…
Me too. I can understand why people like The Boatman’s Call – it’s an intelligent, well-made record. I just find it a bit dull. I prefer I Had a Dream Joe or The City of Refuge. He could make a great racket.
Just can’t get past the lack of melody and his voice. Although I also suspect I’m missing out.
See also Tom Waits. Keep trying but voice like a drain
Which Cave album is the one I should persist with?
If you don’t like it shouty and less melodic, then I suspect The Boatman’s Call is your one. Only someone with a tin ear could describe Into Your Arms, Are You The One I’ve Been Waiting For or People Ain’t No Good as lacking in melody. And it’s where he settled into that baritone croon of his, rather than the unsettling preacherman bark of the first few records.
(I love the first few records, and I also love TBC. It’s his Out of Time: i.e. the record that to fans of a certain tendency marks the point at which the great unwashed started buying him in number and thus he became somehow less good without actually producing less good records. Most longstanding artists have a Boatman’s Call: the album whose predecessors are what you mean when you say, with a kindly velvet-jacketed sixth-form dismissiveness, “Yeah, actually I prefer his early stuff.” 😉)
For me Let Love In was the one, specifically Do You Love Me? Started there and have been carrying on. The earlier ones to me are hit and miss and a bit too shouty in places.
Skeleton Tree for me.
Unusual description of Cave’s voice, as Tom Waits throat literally does sound like a drain, on with one of those devices that chew up left over food built in to it.
I was comparing the two. In that context, Cave’s voice is more conventional.
Nick Cave Just Ain’t No Good.
Did we ever identify ‘King’?
Evelyn ‘Champagne’?
The Destination Zululand hitmakers?
Carole, innit?
Is it what your heart yearns for now?
Carole indeed. More
Songwriter than singer? But at
The top anyway.
I’m a big NC fan and have seen the Bad Seeds, solo shows, films and a recent Q&A. Got to admit I miss the old, noisy stuff.