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I Have Been Touched Inappropriately Twice In Two Days

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The first time was at the security check at Bangkok’s busy Don Mueang aerodrome yesterday. But we have to back up a little to the earlier baggage check-in facility, a new security initiative whereby checked-in luggage gets a thorough electronic probing before being shunted onto a random flight. You have to wait “about a couple of minutes” to see if your name is called. It wasn’t, so I had a peek in the window of the security nerve centre and saw the operative fast asleep in front of the screen as the luggage (bulky thermonuclear devices and cartoon-style big round black bombs with fizzing fuses) trundled past the checkpoint. Duly reassured, I proceeded to the electronic doorway thingie, where a very nice and happy young lady complimented me on my shirt (actually pretty cool – S. Korean, dark green check with a button-in grey hood – you’d love it), pointing it out to her appreciative co-workers, before giving me a very attentive … really very attentive … pat-down and a big Thai smile. I’ve had one or two of these pat-down things before, usually a quick pass with the Derek Smalls beeper (always good for a private joke), but this girl took her job to new levels of security consciousness.

The second time was at a School Day today. It’s a national thing. Students dress up as is their wont and parade about as the Skool Orkestra parps and crashes through rousing yet approximate versions of (presumably) Thai hits. I was taking in the spectacle when I felt what can only be described as a hand on my arse. It was a lady teacher at the school, casually talking to me about the passing show – these were her students – while giving me a supplementary security pat-down at the same time.

Now, I’m not equating my experience with the traumatising historical abuse suffered by so many women recently, but I did consider – briefly, fleetingly – outing my aggressors and seeing them publicly shamed and relieved of their positions. Then I thought, hey – my arse has long been my best feature (to the extent that I frequently talk through it) and these ladies are responding to the healthy natural urges it evokes. And, you know … wahey. You should be so lucky.

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Comments

  1. I’m going to need to see this arse for myself before making a proper judgment, so can you attempt to post a photo of it please? Not naked or anything, tight jeans will do. I’m not a perv.

  3. I’ve felt the touch of a stranger’s hand on my demilitarised zones a few times this last month, mostly on the Delhi Metro and in dodgy Nepalese nightclubs. The intimate patdown, including the gentle genital knuckle punch, is a form of greeting from security guards and bouncers, but you get a few freelancers offering their services as well. At Kathmandu airport waiting for a Buddha Air flight (Motto: If we crash, we crash) every Western woman was told to stand on a box and raise her arms while a female officer felt her boobs. This is in front of the entire Departure Lounge. Obviously I was disgusted by this public assault and averted my gaze after the first hour or so.

  4. In Lilongwe airport, Malwai, I was once asked to enter what could only be described as a large wardrobe for my security check. I did so and was joined by a dapper looking soldier wearing the sort of camouflage outfit that works well outside in bushes etc. but makes one super conspicuous in a small African airport. He proceed to pat me done with a level of thoroughness that I had not experienced before or after. I’ve had less invasive experiences with at least 50% of my lovers.

    Once it was over he let me out but led me to a table where I was asked to sign a form specifically saying that I had enjoyed my security experience. I signed.

  5. I’ve been made to get nakkid twice by customs officer pervs who were clearly enraptured by my looks (and also, maybe, to some extent inspired by the behaviour of the sniffer dogs who also seemed to take a shine to me). Both times my meagre stash was confiscated.

  10. I was a teenage male office worker in a job with about 30 women and only 2 other lads. Based on documentaries I saw presented by Robin Askwith, I felt that I would need a custom-made shitty stick – or at the very least a chair and a whip to keep them at bay when I was sick of all the sex.

    Of course the reality was very different. However, I do remember very well indeed the regular phenomenon of breasts pressed against me in an intentional way by some of the older women (by that I mean in their 20s-30s). This was not a come-on, but just something they did. From the perspective of a 17 year old boy, this was not at all distressing. The manner in which it was done was to provide a little thrill for me, not for them. I think. Anyway, nothing of note happened as a result of these incidents.

    What was different was my supervisor. She was in her 50s and she did it very regularly and once escalated to full on pinning me against a wall and being made to apologise for a clerical error while being physically smothered. When I apologised using the correct words, I was released. That was distressing.

    The harmless-bit-of-fun defence and things-were-different-back-then arguments shouldn’t be used to excuse the predatory creeps. That’s different to what I am describing here.

  11. Jottings from a Publisher’s Life, part 59: at a literary lunch I was once groped under the table simultaneously by Beryl Bainbridge on my left and Bernice Rubens on my right. This’ll be something for the memoirs, I thought…

    “Well, there’s Beryl on my left and there’s Bernice on my right…” Sadly I couldn’t tear open my shirt and show them Doris on my chest.

  12. In Harare in the early eighties when whites and blacks associating and being nice to each other was something of a novelty I had occasion to get my haircut. As we chatted away the ample bosomed hairdresser proceeded to also give me a massage to the back of the head. I was doubly impressed when I realised that she was cutting my hair at the same time as my head was being massaged.

    I took to more frequent haircuts after that.

  14. Seem to remember Henri Charrière’s novel/bio Papillon had a lot of practical advice on how to neutralise the threat of the security pat down (it was so good, I couldn’t pat it down, etc). Certainly gave new meaning to the LA Chargers.

  15. In my 20s, I was raped by a man I had only met that evening and who wouldn’t take no for an answer.

    I was also sexually assaulted by my driving instructor when I was a teenager.

      • Well, it had to happen, I suppose. A piece on the Afterword blog about an old man being grateful for having his arse felt spirals into a horrifying story of sexual assault.

        And no, Bob, Hannah’s comment doesn’t say everything. If my piece had a point beyond a wahey-style facetiousness, it wasn’t that rape is good.

        Since the subject has been raised (and thank you): rape is bad. Saying that doesn’t say everything, but it may help to make it clear for those who were led by my piece into thinking that rape is good, and that I have written a charter for rapists, that they have made a grievous moral mis-step.

        Once more, because you can never be too plainly-spoken on the Afterword:

        Rape: bad.

        Old man getting bum felt: good.

        This doesn’t say everything, of course. Many things are bad that, like rape, I didn’t mention in my piece. Perhaps I should have added a codicil to the effect that war is bad. Starvation. Pollution. Terrorist attacks. Trump. Inequality in the workplace. Subway sandwiches. Conversely, I didn’t fully exploit the opportunity to state that many things are good: raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens spring to mind. As do bright copper kettles and warm woollen mittens, brown paper packages tied up with strings. Skies of blue and clouds of white, certainly, and the bright blessed day is only equalled in the goodness stakes by the dark sacred night, IMHO. To which list I add old man getting his bum felt. It’s a wonderful world!

  16. A thread where men (in the main) make light of groping, fondling ,whatever was always at risk of being seen as mocking the situation women have encountered and continue to encounter. But I don’t think any of us who contributed to the thread meant anything of the sort.

    • “A thread where men (in the main) make light of groping, fondling ,whatever was always at risk of being seen as mocking the situation women have encountered and continue to encounter.”

      Oh. You think?

      “But I don’t think any of us who contributed to the thread meant anything of the sort.”

      I’m sure not. Of course nobody meant anything bad; but the #bantz justification is used to normalise real shit absolutely day in day out, and for me at least, it doesn’t wash. At best it’s careless and a bit Chubby Brown (as in this case). At worst it’s an active and sinister attempt to turn sexual assault into a punchline (for clarity, I know that’s not what’s going on here) in order to undermine women reporting what happens to them. They both have the same effect, though.

      I don’t want to fall out here, and I’m not going to argue. I know I’m the blog’s resident right-on cuck on these matters. I know that my views on sexual politics are viewed by some as something between the Taliban and 80s Ben Elton, and are thus about as popular as a fart in a spacesuit. I can live with that. I just wish I’d done it sooner – I didn’t, because I knew I’d get the old “just joshing” treatment and anything I said would make me seem censorious and PC, and I didn’t want to seem those things. Which is just cowardly. I should be fine to seem those things in this context, because in my view this thread is pretty misjudged. I’m sure nobody gives a shit what I think, but there it is. That’s what I think.

      • You’re overthinking this a little. I’m not making light of anything except me being fondled, myself. I enjoyed it. They were happy, flirtatious, harmless encounters. I didn’t reciprocate, didn’t exchange phone numbers, didn’t make a big deal out of it at all. Walked away. It was funny – and I do mean that. This may be an alien concept to you, Mr Badger. I appreciate that living in Brexit Britain (described in Vanity Fair as “aspiring shithole country”) is a little different to living out here in a sunny, happy country where people don’t make issues out of such daft things. But by all means signal your virtue here, even at the risk of seeming humorless, miserable, and issue-obsessed. Which I’m sure you’re not.

        Oh – cancer is bad, too.

        • Not for nothing but I was also talking about my own awkwardness dealing with different cultural norms in faraway places – but I now realise that in our own culture making light of any uninvited physical contact is ‘bantz’ and that there’s a direct correlation between old men being surprised or amused by a hand on their bum and young men not taking no for an answer.

          • There’s a huge difference between a confident middle-aged (or later) bloke getting his bum felt for a laugh by a flirty lady and a vulnerable teenage girl being groped or worse by a man with evil intent that she can’t immediately get away from.
            No harm done in the first case. Quite a bit of harm done in the second.

            • Correlation isn’t equivalence Mike but what I take from this discussion is that a lot of people believe there’s a direct link between HP’s bemused anecdotes and Hannah’s horrific revelation. I can kind of see their point because some of the comments were starting to move into leery territory (mine included, for which I’m ashamed – how ill-judged a silly joke looks once the context around it changes). I think you have to extrapolate quite a lot to get from HP’s story to Bob’s zero tolerance approach though and I wish we didn’t have to be so black and white about such things.

        • Virtue-signalling? No. I have precious little virtue to signal.

          Mr Saucecraft, I actually wasn’t questioning your post, which was clear in its distancing from anything to do with genuine harassment. No, I was struck by the responses, especially following Hannah’s post.

          I disagreed with the view that sniggering banter at the expense of abuse victims is acceptable when followed by the weasel words, “We don’t really mean it!” For instance, at school I got my fair share of Paki jokes, curry gags, Peter Sellers accents etc, but learnt fast not to make anything of it, as that would have appeared bad form, being a spoilsport, a killjoy etc. “Tchuh! Sheesh! Only *joking,* Slotbadger!” Absurd, of course, but there you are.

          I don’t *think* this view makes me a humourless, miserable and issue-obsessed curmudgeon, but of course, I might well be.

          So, to be clear, congratulations on your invitingly pert posterior and all best!

          PS. I don’t live in “Brexit Britain” I live in happy, sunny Berlin, Germany.

          PPS. Cancer is bad. Thanks! Yes I know, I am in remission from stage 3 colorectal cancer. You get your arse groped, I get mine rudely probed on a regular basis. Up our fundaments!

    • Hi Jeff,

      Seriously? You’re not even talking directly to me. Nice.

      Sorry if you think my experience isn’t relevant. Was it too assaulty for your tastes? Would you like some more light-hearted inappropriate touching anecdotes instead?

      Perhaps the time a drunk man forced his hands up my top so he could feel my pregnant bump?

      Perhaps the time another chap ground his erect cock into my back during a crowded gig?

      Is that better?

      • That’s a totally disingenuous post Hannah; I was clearly neither saying nor insinuating any of those things, and nor would I ever (for good reasons that you know nothing about); I reject the insinuation absolutely out of hand.

        If you’ve got issues you need to talk about, then by all means do so. But do you really think that a reply to a thread by HP Saucecraft on The Afterword is going to get you the sort of response / discussion that you want / need?

  19. I think Hannah’s post does. I think it is thought provoking, and fits exactly in a thread about being touched inappropriately. You probably think it doesn’t because it’s not funny and this thread is supposed to be funny. But I think that’s her point and one that I’m glad she made.

    But do I think the whole thread is as Bob says – bantz? I don’t. It’s more nuanced than that and covers a wide spread of posts – some of which I found unpleasant and some which I didn’t. Some were funny and others not. It’s the way of this place.

    • The bigger question is how come a member of this community tells us they were raped and the response is either silence, ego-driven bickering or asking whether the post is relevant?

      Not meaning to be a dick here, and maybe there have been a flurry of private messages, but it doesn’t feel like the blog’s finest hour. Some compassion, maybe?

      • “the response is either silence, ego-driven bickering or asking whether the post is relevant?”

        Honestly, I didn’t know what to say. I have known women who have been raped and I still didn’t feel I could post anything here. Sorry.

      • Bingo, you seem to have assumed the moral high ground of self-righteous White Knightery and are criticising every other single poster / lurker who doesn’t join in with you. You’ve actually directly accused every other single reader of this site of being uncompassionate; are you sure about that?

        Tell us all what you think we should do.

        • You’re free to characterise me and put words in my mouth as you wish.

          I’m not pointing the finger at anyone individually (beyond maybe you – full disclosure, I thought your post above was crass, but I wouldn’t have called it out specifically if you hadn’t offered the invitation). I just read down the thread, saw the collective response/lack of to what Hannah posted and I didn’t think much of it, so I’ve said so.

          If you think I’m wrong, the easiest thing to do is ignore me. Or aim a few brickbats. Or step back and ask whether the above could all have been handled a little better. Entirely up to you.

          • Actually, the easiest thing for me to do is none of those things, but instead, ask you to consider whether there may be people on this site who’ve been working with issues such as equal opportunities, diversities, discrimination, disempowerment, domestic violence & abuse, homelessness, mental illness, & etc since very possibly before you were born. To those people, compassion is their stock-in-trade, and consists of far more than an ostentatious and facile “u ok hun?” on the Web.

            And I would also ask you to consider how well those people take to having their compassion called into question by a lawyer in the entertainment industry.

            Entirely up to you.

            • Jeff, I’m not going to have an argument with you, no matter how personal you choose to make it.

              I’ve said what I think, you clearly don’t accept my view, nor my right to hold that view. Fair enough.

              If you’d like to discuss it further, i’d suggest direct messages. Otherwise, have a nice evening.

              • Bingo, when you said “…the response is either silence, ego-driven bickering or asking whether the post is relevant” and “…it doesn’t feel like the blog’s finest hour. Some compassion, maybe?” you made it ‘personal’ about everybody else on the site other than you; you just didn’t name us all.

                • Jeff – I’m genuinely not interested in getting into a personal ding dong here.

                  I don’t agree with what you wrote. I’ve always been quite partial to you on here. The latter doesn’t preclude me from stating the former, it does preclude me from wanting a public ruck with you.

                  For what it’s worth, since you brought my profession into it, perhaps I do lack an understanding of compassion.

                  But as a lawyer I’m fairly well versed in logic and debate. When I read your multiple posts above I note that you (a) haven’t addressed my central, specific point; (b) have attempted to expand my point to conflate a fairly ludicrous straw man (that I am accusing literally everyone on the blog of having no compassion at all); (c) have fabricated a watching audience of saints on whose toes I have now trodden; and (d) have gone for the ad hom, bringing into play my age and profession, neither of which are remotely relevant.

                  All in all, a classic example of what we call the “Otter Defence”…

                  In law school, they teach you that when the other side does all this, they’re probably on a sticky wicket. I think that’s the case here, and presumably my CV leaves me in an expert position to make that determination.

                  I hope you take the above in the slightly facetious manner in which it’s intended.

                  Seriously – if you want to carry on discussing and see if we can’t close the gap, let’s direct message.

                  Peace and harmony, through all the world.

      • Ego driven bickering -hmmm. Such incredible insight into motivations from online and afar!

        Yes there have been offline communications. Civil, respectful and in keeping with the blog’s finest hours.

    • I disagree entirely, Leedsboy; are you seriously saying that Hannah’s experience is in any way similar to HP’s?

      And yes, this thread clearly was supposed to be funny… and light-hearted… and about HP’s own nil-impact experience a couple of days ago, which he chose to post about; it was equally clearly very much not about sexual assault. So, yes, I was expecting the thread responses to made in similar light-hearted vein.

      I don’t think this thread was the place for Hannah to post about horrific events which happened presumably several decades ago; had she wanted the support which you and Bingo appear to think she was asking for, then surely her own dedicated thread would have been the better place? Or, perhaps, an entirely different type of discussion board altogether, or even made contact with specialist statutory and voluntary sector services where she could be assured of more meaningful support, affirmation, treatment, and advice? Or perhaps, do you think, she might have already done that, very possibly quite some time ago?

      • Well I agree with your first half sentence but not much after that. The thread was meant to be funny but not all of the posts actually were. And that, I think, was the point of Hannah’s post. You can’t have your right to post what you want and then complain when someone posts what they want.

      • I’ve posted some more appropriately light-hearted “inappropriate touching” anecdotes just for you, Jeff, elsewhere in the thread! I hope you enjoy them!!

        • You’re tilting at the wrong windmill there Hannah, and I absolutely refuse to be your convenient whipping-boy on this issue.

          You have no idea what you’re blundering into with your baseless accusations and smears, and I’m asking you to stop them now.

          I wish you nothing but well, now and in the future.

          • What exactly am I accusing you of?

            I originally posted a two-line response to the OP. Off the back of it, you shared a raft of thoughts on what therapy I should have, and what I was trying to achieve. Also, rather than discussing with me, you ignored me and instead asked another man if he felt my post was relevant. You read quite a lot into that little post of mine.

            Of course I don’t know you in real life. I can only speak as I find, and look at how you responded to my original comment. And I’ve replied accordingly.

            Thanks for your good wishes! Wish you well too!

    • I only just saw your post, @Hannah, as I’ve been avoiding this thread… Big hugs, that’s brave of you to share.
      I’ve been lucky to only having had a couple of attempted, but failed, rape situations…but the list of harrassments and inappropriate behaviour/comments is, as for all women, very long. So, yeah; I’m fine with not having a great sense of humour regarding this subject.

  22. Takes deep breath. As someone who responded after Hannah’ and Bob contributed I should explain myself.

    After Hannah’s post , there was a long silence, an awkward silence. HP came in, then me. I didn’t respond to Hannah’s post and I should have acknowledged the awfulness of her experience. However, I took it that Hannah’s post was intended to kill off the thread as inappropriate and making light of sexual assault. Hannah citing her own experience was providing an example of why we shouldn’t even joke about assault or touch ups etc , however frivolous. So the thread was stopped in its tracks there and then. Now I could be totally wrong on this and Hannah might say a “that’s bullshit, that this was not her thinking in making her contribution”.

    • The original post’s tagged “sexual harassment no laughing matter”. So, if we’re talking about sexual harassment, let’s talk.

      Anyway, I’ve posted more further up the thread, in response to Jeff’s charming post. I don’t feel like saying anything else right now.

    • I think the thread could have gone in an entirely different and more constructive direction following Hannah’s post if Bob had not got on his high horse. Fair play to Bob, he acknowledges he can be sanctimonious at times. It’s a shame in this instance that Hannah’s post wasn’t allowed to stand in its own right, for a time, allowing others to weigh their reaction accordingly. I suppose they still could have posted reaction and maybe there’s no excuse for ignoring Hannah’s post. It goes without saying, surely, that no one posting on this thread is equating mild sexual intimidation with rape.

        • It’s ok mate – this is clearly satirical. Because why else would someone mansplain how women should feel and regard sexual assault.

          That would suggest the recent news coverage hasn’t made them think ‘Maybe I should listen for a change…..’

          That thing – oh if this was a pub we’d all be fine, it’s just banter. No, we really wouldn’t.

        • Hi Hannah, yes and I have scarcely any real appreciation of what that must be like. In the context of your and others’ experience, this thread obviously feels like a trivialisation. No argument there.

    • Hi Junior, just a further comment on this, if it helps explain why I posted in the first place.

      I just wanted to make people aware that enjoying being “inappropriately touched” is a world away from many women’s experiences of the same thing, as there seems to be a chasm between the two worlds.

      I—and pretty much all my female friends—have been subjected to gropes, pokes, comments and other “inappropriate touches” pretty much from the moment we hit puberty.

      I can post all the trivial “inappropriate touches” I have received, where the touching has been unwanted and unpleasant, but there are so many, many stories. The experiences all build up, and it becomes depressing and horribly normalised.

      But if I think about all the “inappropriate touches” I have received, that I actually enjoyed? I don’t have a single one to share with you. And that’s my point.

      The hairdresser who, while cutting my hair, kept whispering in my ear that he wanted me to come round to his house and give him a blowjob.

      I could keep sharing my own stories—there are so, so many—but here are some from my friends, for a change of scene.

      My best mate makes her husband stand behind her on the escalator because she’s sick of strangers groping her arse.

      My aunt had her arse groped by my mother’s boyfriend. When she complained, he accused her of “not having a sense of humour about it”.

      This stuff is part of many women’s everyday lives. And I’m not trying to take away anyone’s right to enjoy having their arse groped. I’m just saying, here’s what it’s like when this sort of “inappropriate touching” is just something you have to put up with. For many of us, it’s not an occasional thrill, it’s a dull, grinding, part of reality.

      Just sharing another side of the experience.

  23. Hannah’s experiences are horrific. However, I thought dropping the rape bombshell into a thread everyone knows was a typical, and funny, piece of HP whimsy was jarringly inappropriate. Bob’s over-the-top reaction merely fanned the flames.
    By all means let’s discuss sexual harassment (and worse) in a separate thread but portraying HP as some sort of Bernard Manning is just plain Wrong.

    • Then I obviously misjudged the tone of this post and I’m going to keep sharing some of the more light-hearted inappropriate touching experiences that have occurred to me and my friends! (See above for more!)

      There was the time that a man, sat next to me on a crowded train, rested his head on my shoulder and started wanking. Great to know I’ve still got it, and I’m worth wanking over!

      How nice for many of you that “inappropriate touching” is something you welcome, rather than something you’ve had to repeatedly endure your whole life.

      Many more whimsical anecdotes to come! Many, many more!

    • Let’s just skate past the interesting decision to call a woman’s disclosure of rape “jarringly inappropriate”, shall we? Anyway…

      Delighted as I always am to have people line up to give a massive kicking to what was – if you actually read the words I used – a pretty mild post and in direct response to a small dissertation from HP in his own defence, I’d just like to say the following: you’re wrong, and so is Nick above, and so is Jeff, and so is HP. I realise there’s satisfaction in numbers, but you’re still wrong. Also, since we’re doing wrongness: the Bernard Manning thing is a straw man: nobody has said that. And “everyone knows”? Yeah, that’s another nope from me. Like @locust says, I’m fine having no sense of humour about this one.

      If someone wants to parody the language around a real and endemic problem – and it’s either disingenuous or daft to pretend that’s not what the post title and tags were doing – knock yourself out, but don’t imagine that being called sanctimonious or over the top for calling it out bothers me. (After all, I’m a teacher – and thus, pace Jeff, automatically a good person 😉 – so I’m used to it.) It’s only sanctimony if you think I’m pretending to feel it, or being hypocritical. I’m not. Maybe consider why Hannah chose to post, and why I then chose to respond to HP’s defence of himself in the terms I did. If you really don’t understand, I’m not sure there’s anything I can add.

      Anyway, I’m sure you’ll want to come back, but I’ll probably give this thread a swerve from this point on. I’ve said everything I wanted to, and I’m not going to persuade anyone, but just because you know something is going to fall on deaf ears doesn’t mean it’s automatically something to avoid saying. Have a good day, all.

      • This sums it up very well, for me. I’d like to think that rather than making light of sexual assault per se, a lot of this thread seems to ‘parody the language around a real and endemic problem – and it’s either disingenuous or daft to pretend that’s not what the post title and tags were doing […]’

        – which I think has the (hopefully unintended) effect of undermining women’s responses to such experiences.

    • I just can’t agree it was inappropriate. Jarring? Yes. But I think the point is that if one part of society thinks it’s ok to make light of sexual harassment, it’s largely because we men do not have the first idea of how often and how bad sexual harassment is for women. Women we know.

      I posted on the thread. In hindsight, I wouldn’t because I have learned something about the all pervading nature of this abuse because someone I know has had multiple instances of sexual abuse and she is not prepared to let it go anymore.

      Its pretty depressing reading comments from men saying that they don’t want to hear this kind of stuff because it’s ruined a humorous thread about sexual harassment.

  24. There have been a number of threads discussing why we like this place and I have to admit that I am on the surreal rabbit-hole thread side of the spectrum which, by definition, can stray off-piste at times. In the spirit of full disclosure, I regard HP as one of the ferrets in chief and I always think the site a poorer place when he’s on his sabbaticals.

    I have met Hannah on several occasions at London meet-ups. Why is that relevant? I know a crime is a crime but it’s different when you know the person in question, however slightly. When I think of her I envision a charming lady, head askew with her quizzical smile mingling effortlessly among us and, dare I say, getting a teeny bit Stevie Wonder behind the keyboard as the rest of us slaughter some rock staple. Imagining the same person in a situation where they are afraid and hurt is gut wrenching. So Hannah: your post did make me revisit the thread, I must admit I hadn’t noticed the tag in the OP before you mentioned it, and I hope you don’t think the lack of response means I don’t care. I’m sure I speak for the vast majority of my fellow lurkers in that regard. I find the whole cluster response thing a bit evangelical, sorry that’s just me.

    Finally, to those of self-appointed moral guardians who seem to need to tell me how to think, how to respond and when to respond, I’m sure it makes you feel better about yourself but it’s a sermon I don’t need.

  25. Ok, last attempt. HP’s tale was a humourous story of a middle-aged man being touched up and rather liking it. Every humourous story has a potential within to offend. Sometimes, like Lenny Bruce or Frankie Boyle, the humour indeed sometimes spills over into offensiveness. I would have said HP’s tale in no way spilled over whilst accepting 100% someone with Hannah’s experiences is not going to see it that way.
    The topic of women’s sexual harassment is IMHO far too important to be buried in a thread where old geezers chuckle about being felt up in faraway places (cue Moose). Given the demographics of this place I would be amazed if any of us males treat the abuse of women as anything else but an abomination. In order to correct the wrongs of our ways and ensure women can go about their lives without being preyed on by dickheads there may well be a period when us males have to accept any sort of sexual contact with a woman is governed by new and strict rules of behaviour. I hope these new rules, however necessary, will not prevent old geezers chuckling about , perhaps even wishing for, “inappropriate” feeling-up as described in the OP.

    • I’d have stopped to be honest. This is just trying to rearrange the facts to make it seem better. Sometimes, us men need to stop, listen and consider the other person and, remember, that as a male, we approach everything from a position of privilege that can make it really difficult to understand what women have to put up with,

  26. Just for the sake of balance, I fucking hate being touched without permission, and always have.

    I don’t recognise this picture of a Carry On world where men are just grateful for the attention. I can recall numerous instances of being ad hoc grabbed, groped etc (by both men and women), and absolutely none of them were welcome or hilarious. I can only imagine how much more unpleasant it would be if I were smaller and more vulnerable, physically and socially.

    The way I see it is that we’re all stakeholders in ending this bullshit. Even if rape/sexual assault has never happened to you, statistically it will have happened to people you know/care about, whether they talk about it or not.

    I’m not on board with everything the #MeToo movement is doing, but I am most certainly on board with creating an atmosphere where this stuff can be discussed without all the sniggering and without people being shushed into corners because it’s making everyone uncomfortable to hear about their experiences.

    FAOD, this isn’t aimed at anyone specifically. It’s just a general observation re: some of the tensions at play on this thread.

    If all of the above makes me a dreadful, self-righteous prick, then so be it. I’ll wear that label if it’s the cost of saying what I actually think.

    • Have to agree that unexpected/unwanted touching has never sat very well with me either.
      On a few occasions I was touched up/propositioned by older males in my youth and it was an extremely unpleasant experience. A thing that one just never talked about in those days.

      In my late teens I worked in a couple of small electronics factories, assembling equipment at a bench, surrounded almost exclusively by older, married women, who took delight in terrorising their few young male workmates with innuendo-laden or even plain filthy banter and pseudo-accidental touching. It made me uncomfortable, which was probably the aim of it. I was of an age to be able to shrug it off and even joke about it, but not appreciated just the same.

      • @mike-h yes, that was the kind of thing I was describing. My experience was working in a large bank, in a very female-biased team led by a woman who was touchy-feely towards me and any of the other young teenage boys that worked there. She regularly led comical workplace public inquiries into my sex life/penis size/whether I might be gay. At 16, I was a bit shy and easily embarrassed and, entertainingly, able to blush hotly on demand. Do you remember typing pools? I got similar treatment in there as well.

        I described the occasional physical closeness of some of the older women there when I was asking them something, or needed something signed off. An arm may go around me, a chest pressed against me. They would do this, I am sure, as a “treat” for me and also at times to see how embarrassed I could get because it amused them.

        As a 51 year old now I can look back and paint a Carry On film picture of seaside postcard sauciness but it wasn’t really like that. My Supervisor was depressed and needed help. Regular tears for no real reason, conflicts conjured up from thin air, prolonged periods of total silence and inactivity. You just learned to work around this.

        I took the OP literally and related my experience in my own ham-fisted way. In the context of society as a whole, this is of course small beer and the teasing caused me no long-term harm (twitch). A 16 year old is some distance away from full maturity and I am certain that this kind of thing would not be tolerated now. I just thought it was of interest, given the OP’s subject matter.

  27. Dear Hannah + Ruby + Locust + women in general,

    I can’t apologise for all men ever but it’s no secret: men are swine. Your matter-of-factness fair made me swallow, Hannah, god love you.

    Let’s risk a hug,

    Dec

    • Thanks Declan, appreciated.

      Not to take away from the sentiments expressed in your comment, but I know lots of men who are not swines; even- gasp! – men I have met from the Afterword.

      So I don’t think men are inherently swines- it’s learned behaviour and/or some personality traits and whatever [starts essay…]

      I don’t really do hugs but you can try, and I will tolerate it stiffly and perhaps give you a pat on the back and we will all be embarrassed then laugh about it. 🙂

      • That was my thought, to be honest. I’m pretty confident that all my male friends would, like me, be absolutely mortified to think they’d made a woman feel uneasy or behaved in any way inappropriately. There are many complete jerks -and worse- out there, but I like to think they’re the minority.

    • Thanks Dec. But men aren’t swine. Sure, I’ve encountered a number of men who behave like swine, but that’s different.

      Anyway. I like hugs and am glad to accept one.

  28. We end with hugs – and I suspect the vast majority of Afterworders would – if we all met in a big room would get along famously or at least find some common ground. The trouble with things like #MeToo is I think they get misinterpreted as a ‘fad’ – bottom line is this has prompted a lot of women to speak out about sexual harassment, abuse and worse and it’s perhaps prompted men to shut the fuck up and listen – or at least stop and think – and that’s a good thing obviously.

    Sorry HP but your OP seemed to sneer at that idea – and yours, Lodestone and Jeff’s response to Hannah’s bombshell were massively lacking in compassion I thought. She doesn’t “Have Issues” Jeff- she’s just reflecting something which unfortunately is all too common and I don’t think I know a woman that hasn’t experienced something along the lines Hannah and others speak of. Maybe women you know have too..have you asked them?

    This needs talking about, and if that means crashing what some of you considered a harmless and humorous thread (although HP clearly knew full well what he was doing judging by the tags) then so be it.

    My love/hate relationship with this site is ongoing. I don’t miss being your Admin because, as much as I love this site you lot are a fucking pain in the arse and I don’t envy your new Admin overlords. You’ve just had a massive reality check courtesy of Hannah so hope some of you will reflect on it. x

    • Hannah’s post should have brought the thing to an end and very nearly did. That simple statement of facts, delivered without accusation, made us all stop and think about our involvement in the thread. The problem was the next post, the only one in a 10-hour hiatus.

      Bob’s #metoo looked to some like less of an expression of sympathy with Hannah and more of a blanket dig at all those who had contributed up to that point. So then we’re all tarred with this association with Hannah’s experience. An allegation like that can’t go undefended, so obviously when the alleged rape-apologist-in-chief HP woke up, he made his case, and it all kicked off from there. The counter charge of virtue signalling / sanctimony soon got an airing, and away we went again.

      So then we’re in this awkward position where the choices presented are; you either agree with Bob’s definition of #justbantz, or your a misogynist. And the problem for me with that is that if it’s really that binary, it means I’m on the same side as Jeff. It’s an ego thing, because we all care far too much about what other people may or may not think of us, but no one wants to be perceived as condoning that. Some of us responded, some took the adult route.

      I think it should be possible to talk about old men’s fading libido with humour, just as it’s possible to talk with a light touch about the serious issue of men being creepy dickheads, as readers of Hannah’s Winning Lines stories with attest.

      By the way, I think HP knew exactly what response he’d get when he started the thread, and probably had a good idea who it would come from too. I have huge respect for Bob, I’ve learned a lot from him over the years, and I agree with 90% of what he’s said here. I think it could have been left unsaid, that’s all.

    • My other half’s daughter went to the school in the first picture. She’s now a teacher herself at the other end of England. She was amused but not greatly surprised when I sent her the news, and speculated that fights had been breaking out as a result of teenage jealousies and this was the school’s/trust’s nuclear option to intervene.

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