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“Hark the herald angels sing – Mrs Simpson stole our King!”

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“As shepherds washed their socks by night”

Back in my youth, any English school kid would recognise this irreverent reworking of the Xmas carol “While shepherds watched their flocks at night”. I mentioned it this morning on Facebook as I sat waiting for my laundry to dry in the tvättstuga gazing out at three inches of freshly fallen snow.

To my delight, an old school friend, who I last met more than 50 years ago replied with a mention of a satirical version of another carol that his father used to sing: “Hark the herald angels sing – Mrs Simpson stole our King!” At the time my pal had no idea who Mrs Simpson was, but realised it was rather naughty.

That lead me to this excellent article about Xmas Carols. They are the poor, (somewhat disreputable, but very popular) relatives of Xmas hymns.

“Carols weren’t confined by rigid church law and their words often strayed from biblical text. Even worse, carols could be subversive. Encoded in local slang or dialect, satirical wordplay might poke fun at an unpopular monarch or church official. Carols were dangerous, so the authorities banned them, but a few somehow managed to slip into the pews of respectability.”

https://www.sussexliving.com/features/downtime/the-peoples-songs/

So does anybody else among you remember any other carols, nursery rhymes, pop hits or other songs whose lyrics got tweaked?

Swedish, French, Finnish, Welsh, Spanish: all other languages welcome!

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Comments

  6. Spike Milligan did a few

    Twinkle, twinkle, little bat!
    How I wonder what you’re at!
    Up above the world you fly,
    Like a teatray in the sky.

    Also: I left my teeth on table mountain
    High on a hill they smile down on me

  8. My nan was a cleaner at Beachams all her working life. She used to sing this:

    Hark, the herald angels sing,
    Beachams pills are just the thing
    they are gentle, meek and mild
    Two for an adult, one for a child
    If you want to go to heaven
    You must take a dose of seven
    If you want to go to hell,
    Eat the ruddy box as well…
    Hark the herald angels sing
    Beechams pills are just the thing.

  13. Terrace chants are a subject I know little about except for seeing Peter Terson’s National Youth Theatre play, Zigger Zagger, back in 1967. (How sad is that?)

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2013/sep/08/observer-archive-tale-of-terraces-goal-playwright

    From that I know of We all live at the back of City End to the tune of Yellow Submarine.

    Whereas the new words for Xmas Carols are playful. Many football chants are plain nasty.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2006/apr/19/comment.sport

    • @Kaisfatdad There is a football chant that made me chuckle. You may recall the Delia Smith drunken let’s be having you speech trying to liven up the home crowd when Norwich were struggling in a game.
      A few weeks later in a game against Chelsea the Chelsea fans were trying to wind the Norwich fans up with:

      ‘We’ve got Abramovich, you’ve got a drunken bitch’

      To which the retort was:

      ‘We’ve got a super cook, you’ve got a Russian crook’

      Football humour doesn’t get much better.

      • not the most tasteful of chants, granted, but after Scottish goalkeeper Andy Goram bravely admitted that he had issues with schizophrenia, opposing fans would sing “there’s only two Andy Gorams”

        • A few years back, some Leeds away fans chanted ‘Does your boyfriend, does your boyfriend, does your boyfriend know you’re here?’ to the Brighton supporters. The quick comeback was ‘You’re too ugly, you’re too ugly, you’re too ugly to be gay’

  15. I thought that the rugby song, Four and Twenty Virgíns, was a bawdy re-write of another tune, Far from it! The original, a Scottish traditional song, The Ball of Kirriemuir was unadulterated filth from the word go.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ball_of_Kirriemuir

    Here’s Adrien Moffat’s amusing modern version.

    He describes it as an X-rated version of a Carry On film.

    Another rugby song, She’ll be coming round the mountain when she comes , started life as a “plantation hymn” first published in 1899. It became a popular kids song in the USA.

    https://americansongwriter.com/behind-the-meaning-of-the-classic-country-nursery-rhyme-shell-be-coming-round-the-mountain/

    You may remember bawdier modern reboots. It’s a song that lends itself to writing new verses.

    https://galaxymusicnotes.com/pages/how-shell-be-coming-round-the-mountain-evolved

    The tune has also been recycled in Scotland.

  16. Auntie Mary had a canary,
    Up the leg of her drawers;
    She pulled a string to make it sing,
    And down came Santa Claus.

    Learnt from a Scottish ex girlfriend. I’ve found out there are more verses.

  17. Another We Three Kings one …

    We three kings of orient are,
    One in taxi, one in a car,
    One on a scooter,
    Bibbing his hooter
    Following the wandering star.

    Actually, I’m not sure about the last line. I seem to remember that we somewhat tailed off into “la la la” after “hooter” when I was a kid, which is quite a long time ago now.

  18. It’s Christmas time. The family/
    Who came for dinner, stayed for tea/
    And my digestive system feels peculiar.
    We’ve pulled the crackers, told the jokes/
    And after thirteen rum and cokes/
    Granny says ‘Let’s all sing Hallelujah’

    I’ve heard this song so many times/
    Its litany of dodgy rhymes/
    It’s even sung by Natalie Imbruglia

    And so it goes

  19. Hallelujah and Imbruglia is a wonderful rhyme. But what tune is it sung to @thecheshirecat?

    Which brings me to a question for everyone:

    Who here has sung carols this Xmas? I don’t just mean performing solo as the centre of attention, but also as one of a group of carol singers or in a congregation or at a Xmas concert?

    I’m expecting there to be very few who have. So surprise me!!

    Incidentally, I’m very impressed by my book circle pal, Teutonic Tim. He’s an amateur choir singer and last week sung in in two consecutive concerts at the Stockholm English Church. And then one more at his local church in Aspudden

    • We’re heading to the crib service in the church at the end of the road at 5. I like to visit churches, but it will be the first time since I’ve been to a service of any sort in decades.

      • I could very easily be tempted to go to a church service at this time of year.

        And if you go to a Lucia concert, as well as the gorgeous singing, you get the Full Flaming Candles/White Nighty/Pointy Hat/Starboy Monty.

      • An old schoolfriend is the parish priest about half an hour away. We are just back from seeing him ‘at work’.
        I’m excellent at miming the hymns but trying to follow the mass was a difficult task.

        I also noticed in Hark the Herald Angels Sing the line ‘Hail the Sun of Righteousness!’ I’d always thought of it as son and not sun*

        * links with Dies Natalis Solis Invicti perhaps?

        • I thought the same about ‘Sun of righteousness’ when it came around. This was a simple service highlighting the children of the parish rather than a mass. Various small groups of kids were given the models of kings, shepherds and so to hold until that part of the story was told and they were added to the church crib. It’s been a long time since I sang and it took a while to get the right muscles working, but by the end I was blasting out the carols in my distinctively flat bass baritone.

    • It’s Christmas time. The family/
      Who came for dinner, stayed for tea/
      And my digestive system feels peculiar.
      We’ve pulled the crackers, told the jokes/
      And after thirteen rum and cokes/
      Granny says ‘Let’s all sing Hallelujah’

      I’ve heard this song so many times/
      Its litany of dodgy rhymes/
      It’s even sung by Natalie Imbruglia

      And so it goes

    • Yes, lots – Mrs L and I sing in Winchester Community Choir, we had our Christmas concert a couple of weeks ago, we also sang at the Christmas market. The choir mostly does traditional songs from Hampshire and the south of England, though we did sing Santa Claus is Coming to Town and In the Bleak Midwinter this year. I’ve also been leading a small group of singers in our village, as the choir for the annual candle-lit carol service two days ago. (And just watched Carols From Kings on the BBC this evening to see how it’s done properly – great stuff)

      • Thanks a lot for replying @Langdale68. It was fascinating to read about your choir, not least because they put an emphasis on local songs.

        There are several clips on the Tube.

        Interesting to read about the carol service in your village. At this time of year there are choral activities on many levels: everything from local carol singers to the excellence of Carols at Kings.

        I noticed that the choir at the English Church were looking for a few volunteers to boost their sound for the Xmas service.

        That probably went quite well. Choir singing is popular here in Sweden. There are an estimated 600,000 people who sing in a choir: 17% of the population

        This thread was partly inspired by a comment by @thecheshirecat on the Favourite Songs of all Time thread.

        Here, slightly edited is what he wrote.

        ”For me, there’s three lists going on here.
        There’s the list of all those worthy winners The River Deep Mountain High list, if you will.
        Then there’s a list of songs that you personally adore. These are the ones that you would like to introduce to your fellow Afterworders. This list would be a lot more interesting than the first.

        Very specifically and personally, I have a list of songs that I enjoy singing the most. Believe me, this is also a very good list.”

        So now, I am going to ask you and anyone else who wants to reply:

        Do you (and your wife) have any particular carols other songs that you enjoy singing?

        No need to hurry with your answer!! It’s Xmas Day and you’re doubtless extremely busy.

        • My contributions to today’s grub (fartichoke soup and cheesecake) are already made, so I am A Free Man in Sussex while others wrestle with the duck.
          The carol we sing together at the folk club is the Sans Day Carol (The Holly Bears a Berry) which is a Watersons standard. The other that I do is On Christmas Day it Happened So, but that is all about retribution and is seriously bleak. Not really singalong material.

        • Thanks for posting the video, yes that’s us! It’s a good example because that’s a carol which originated from the village of Medstead in Hampshire, and is one of our favourites to sing. I think our personal favourites would generally be the more uplifting songs, and they sound better sung by the choir as the slower, quieter songs are usually more technically difficult to sing. Two other favourites this year were ‘Rolling Downward’, a gospel-y carol from 19th century America, and ‘Masters In This Hall’, an old French dance with English words by William Morris (as in flowery textiles/wallpaper). We’ve been humming those while cooking our Christmas food!

          Winchester Community Choir is one of a few similar community choirs in Hampshire which originated in folk clubs, so our singing is more from the folk tradition than the religious/choral tradition. At this time of year many of the carols have a religious basis anyway but although we rehearse and perform in a church we’re not a church choir, it’s just a good space to sing in.

          It’s interesting that choirs are so popular in Sweden. They’re pretty popular here too and people are realising there are real physical and mental health benefits to be had from singing with other people. We are open to all with no auditions or need to read music, which can put people off from joining more traditional choirs. Tunes are learnt by ear/repetition. Looking forward to starting again in the new year.

          Happy Christmas!

          • Thanks @Langdale68. Lots of interesting stuff. Let’s start by listening to those carols you recommended.

            Rolling downward by the Exmoor Carollers.

            And now solo by that wonderful Yorkshire singer Kate Rusby.

            Masters in this Hall.

            First, a (Full Carolian Monty) version performed by the Clear Lake Symphony with the Gloria Dei Festival Choir and the Lutheran South Academy Choir, Dec. 5, 2015 at Gloria Dei Lutheran Church in Nassau Bay, TX.

            And now a barer medieval version by Barry and Beth Hall.

            I was very interested to hear that your choir originated in folk clubs and that members did not need to be able to read music to participate. That small detail is a real game changer. I’m sure there many people with glorious voices who are put off joining a choir because they can’t read music.

            That Sussex Living article that I mention in my introduction to this discussion, mentions how carols are nearer to folk songs than those pieces of music which are commissioned by the church and then sung by the choir. Your choir is further proof of that.

            Forgive me for going off piste here, as I want to add a small personal note. Our 20 year-old son is currently studying music studio production at a ” folkhögskola” (non-academic adult education college) in a small town called Arvika in Värmland.

            Even when he was at nursery school, he hated singing with the other kids. And when he started primary school things get ever worse. In the end, I think they actually banned him from music lessons because he was so disruptive.

            His school years in general were a long, pretty grim story. But that’s another story.

            Anyway, after secondary school he went to a job centre where he met some wonderful career and education counsellors who really believed in him.

            As a result of their efforts, he landed a well-paid summer job at the Skogskyrkogården Cemetery (where Greta Garbo is buried). They then helped him to look at the educational options open to him and apply successfully to Arvika despite having pretty naff grades.

            He went there to learn how produce hip hop, grime, rap and sundry urban music. But as he is studying music, the teachers have coaxed him into doing some basic piano lessons and (to our total surprise) singing some concerts with the school choir. And he’s enjoying it all a lot and getting on very well with his wonderfully unsnooty schoolmates who’ve given him a lot of praise and encouragement.

            That’s the best Xmas present Mrs KFD and I had in years.

            As for me, I am a total non-singer myself but I really agree with you about “physical and mental health benefits to be had from singing with other people”

            Ooops I’m lying again. Just for a change! When I’m at the Roskilde Festival in Denmark in the summer, I sing along with gusto.

            The sound of 60, 000 Danish hipsters (plus me) singing along to Morrissey’s There is a Light that never goes out in an enormous muddy tent is something I will not forget. This clip from Manchester captures that atmosphere.

            Forget We three kings and Good King Wenceslas! There’s a real anthem for a generation!

            • Thanks for the clips, we love the Exmoor choir’s version of Rolling Downwards (they are singing that in Porlock which is one of our favourite places, we were there for a week in October).

              And yes, I totally agree that euphoric singing along with the crowd at gigs is a wonderful thing – perfect combination of performer, song and audience in that Morrissey clip.

              It was so interesting to hear about your son. I think most schools get music teaching badly wrong when children are younger, at least in the UK where in some schools it’s virtually non-existent. I was lucky to have some inspirational music teachers back in the 1970s/early 80s, but our own children had some very half-hearted music lessons which put them off doing anything further. I hope your son goes from strength to strength – having the opportunity to be part of lots of different genres is wonderful.

              • Thanks for your very supportive words, @Langdale68.

                My jaundiced view is that the humanities and the creative arts, namely music and art, are very second class citizens in the modern Swedish school system and are the first to get axed from the syllabus.

                Half-heared music lessons! What a shame! Lessons that don’t inspire you to listen to more music or play or sing yourself have to regarded as a failure.

                Even at an early age here, there is an obsession about getting good grades and very little emphasis on learning stuff because of the joy of learning.

                I’m not going to put a lot of blame on the teachers. Classes are often far too big and the teachers have to spend far too much time with admin tasks and keeping the class under control, than doing what they are there for: to teach.

            • There is a light…is a song all the young ‘uns seem to know. One of those songs with a long “tail” like Mr Brightside in the last 20 years or so – or Bela Lugosi’s Dead or Blue Monday back in t’80s.

    • I have conducted a couple of funeral services recently where the family have chosen a carol rather than a hymn for the attendees to sing, it is rather nice at this time of year and feels less formal … a proper celebration

          • That must be such a challenge @exilepj!

            On the one hand, a family member who really knows (perhaps too much) about the hymns available, And, on the other hand, a deeply upset mourner who doesn’t know Hymns Ancient and Modern but is trying to find a song that expresses their grief.

            I remember an interview with The Three Degrees where they talked about how a Glaswegian fan had told them about how When will I see you again? had meant so much to him when his granny had died.

            Easy to laugh perhaps, but sometimes perhaps a song takes on a life of its own and it’s mean and small-minded to scoff at that?

        • Very droll, @the cheshirecat! There is a whole thread to be done on the rather dubious choices that families have made about songs to be sung at a funeral.

          “Always look on the bright side of life!”

          When I pop my clogs, I want this gem by Carl Michael Bellman to be played: performed by Imperiet.

          I can’t find an English translation that does it justice. Yet!

          But I really liked your comment @exilepj about a mourning family choosing a carol rather than a hymn as the other mourners would feel more comfortable with it. And that’s exactly how people at a funeral should feel in my book!

          When we were arranging my dad (or was it my mum’s funeral?), I remember my brother (who is a New York church-goer) talking knowledgeably with the vicar about which hymn we should go for and then which specific melody for that hymn we should choose.

          Yikes! I was so horribly out of my depth.

          Back in the day, I guess that all the congregation know most of the hymns in the Baptist Hymn book.

          Back to my funeral. I could really go for this tune by the Dead.

          “What a long strange trip it’s been!”

          • @Kaisfatdad … i agree, a thread on funeral choices could be interesting … one of my favourites was the elderly lady who wanted Alicia Keys ‘This Girl is on Fire’ played as the curtains closed or the aging biker who chose ‘Winkers Song (misprint)’ by Ivor Biggun as he went on his way

  21. In Sweden the main reason to rewrite any song, including Christmas carols, is to turn it into a snapsvisa. Usually the lyrics are however completely changed and have nothing to do with the original – the reason the well-known tune is used is so that everybody can sing along as long as they get handed a lyric sheet at the kräftskiva.
    Some rewrites become classics, like this one from the Christmas song “Hej tomtegubbar”:

    Tänk om jag hade lilla nubben
    uppå ett snöre i halsen
    Tänk om jag hade lilla nubben
    uppå ett snöre i halsen
    Jag kunde dra den upp och ner
    så att den kändes som många fler!
    Tänk om jag hade lilla nubben
    uppå ett snöre i halsen – Skål!
    😀

    • Brilliant stuff @Locust.

      Here’s a case where I know the tweaked version far better than the original. I’ve sung it at more than a few drunken, Midsummer parties!

      I hadn’t realised it was a children’s song

      Talking of which, Judge Dread made a whole career out of blue versions of nursery rhymes.

      Of course, getting his singles banned by the Beeb did wonders for sales.

      • I wouldn’t necessarily call it a children’s song, @kaisfatdad, it’s a Christmas song primarily used for dancing around the Christmas tree. And quite fitting for being made into a snapsvisa as the OG lyrics of the first verse is about drinking anyway!
        “Slå i glasen” = fill up the glasses, “och låt oss lustiga vara” = and let’s be merry – and to be merry some beer or snaps work faster than julmust!

        • Fair enough, @Locust. I happily accept your argument. However I am fairly sure it got sung by the kids at the nursery school Xmas party back in the day.

          Anyway, that reminded me of a Swedish kids song that we know and love: The Small Frogs.

          What an odd tale this is. It started life as a French military song about onions: Le Ballade de I’oignon. The lyrics are rather eccentric.

          An excellent comment about the song’s history:

          “@sambrown9052
          2 years ago
          The story behind the song is that after Napoleon crossed the Alps to face Austrian forces and before the Battle of Marengo He saw some of his grenadiers putting onions on bread and Napoleon told them “there is nothing better than an onion for marching on the road to glory”.”

          Anyway, the English stole the tune and turned into a satirical song about the French: The Frogs as call them. During the Napoleonic Wars, the Swedes nicked the tune and the lyrics, and took them back to Sweden where it became a jolly song about small frogs which very popular at Midsummer.

          And now a personal question for you @Locust?

          Do you remember wearing a revamped version of your Lucia dress at your Graduation??

          In June 2015 you told us the whole story! And what a wonderful story it was too,

          The Megamind of the Afterword never forgets! It’s at the end of this thread.

          Pompous and Circumstantial on Mahattan, French military Swedish Midsummer froggery

          You can check out any time, but you can never leave!

          • Of course I remember, @kaisfatdad – but it wasn’t for the actual Graduation Day, but all 9th graders at our school had the day before graduation off to celebrate surviving school, a day which was spent in fancy dress costumes in and around the school in different states of inebriation, and traditionally ending with everybody long-line dancing through all of the classrooms and often a small book burning in the school yard as well…
            I had also written lots of slightly rude and/or irreverent jokes on patches sewn onto my slutty angel dress, I only remember a few of them. “Devils have more fun”, “Try walking the narrow path in high heels yourself and see how you do”, and, strategically placed at the front of my very short skirt hemline;
            “Jesus was here., A.D. 18.
            Judas was here too, A.D. 22”
            (not sure about the exact years I put, but something like that)
            My best friend was dressed up as a hooker and our very religious head teacher looked right through the two of us as she passed us in the yard, mouth looking like she sucked a lemon! 😀
            Suited us fine, as we detested her.

            Anyway; a song being sung by kids is not proof of it being a children’s song – I remember spending many a time in day care, playschool and school as a small child being instructed to sing songs like:

            “Flickan i Havanna
            hon har inga pengar kvar
            Sitter i ett fönster
            vinkar åt en karl
            Kom du glade sjömatros
            du ska få min röda ros
            Jag är vacker, du är ung
            Sjung av hjärtat, sjung”

            Neither we nor the teachers understood that we were singing about a prostitute, until many years later. Also songs by Bellman, singing about drinking lots of booze and – again – seeing prostitutes…if the melody was simple and pretty enough and it was written by a well-known composer, it was seen as perfectly fine for kids to learn to sing it back then.
            So in that context I guess “Hej Tomtegubbar” seems very much like a children’s song! 🙂

            • What a wonderfully cinematic description,@Locust! You ought to write a screenplay: Locust – The Movie.

              My big question now (going off on a complete tangent from the subject of this thread) is: What piece of music is playing in the movie as Locust and her pal strut down the corridor and meet the head teacher???

              I’m nominating the Leather Nun. But I’m sure all of you can do far ,far better.

                • No no @Locust! Of course I’m not going to insist on a Swedish track!

                  Looking at wiki, I see that Imperiet still had its Star Wars inspired name Rymdimperiet (Space Empire) until the beginning of 1983. I also saw that Fjodor, bassist with Ebba Grön, ( the band that Imperiet grew out of )did time in prison for refusing to do military service.

                  https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Eriksson

                  Before my arrival in Sweden but this still sounds very good, and it’s a guaranteed floorfiller at pensioners’s parties.

  22. We three kings of orient are
    Trying to smoke a rubber cigar
    It was loaded and exploded
    Oh what fools we are

    Jingle Bells Batman smells
    Happy Halloween
    Oh what fun it is to ride
    In a Nazi submarine

    And Walt Kelly’s classic, “Deck Us All With Boston Charlie”

    • Thanks @Bigshot, That is brilliant. It must be so much fun for a choir to sing such wonderfully written nonsense.

      Singing together ought to be fun. It made me think of this bizarre gem that I stumbled over recently: Godzilla Eats Las Vegas. The excellent Bel Canto Choir from Vilnius are clearly having a whale of a time.

      I see now that hipster, scat-singing trio, Lambert, Hendricks and Ross recorded a version of Boston Charlie back in 1962.

  24. The discussion about the Winchester Community Choir has made it clear to me that there are some choirs where being able to sight-read music is a pre-requisite and others where the learning is done by memorising the music. I imagine there’s also an area of overlap: choirs that will accept you because you have a good voice and then they hope your ability to read music will gradually improve.

    What percentage of the population can read music? I’m guessing 3-4%. If that!

    What percentage of professional musicians cannot read music? Obviously all classical musicians are literate. But in pop, jazz, reggae, folk, metal, EDM, bluegrass etc a gifted but musically illiterate player or singer can manage fairly well anyway.

    What percentage of the denizens of the Afterword can read music? I’m guessing 2 or 3 percent.

    I can’t read music these days, however back in the day, before my voice broke and I discovered girls, I could sight-read well enough to sing in the school choir.

    This quiz was fun, even though I only got about two correct.

    https://www.classicfm.com/lifestyle/quizzes/how-well-can-you-read-music/

    • One of my modest accomplishments I’m reasonably proud of (wouldn’t want to get carried away) is that I’m a good sight reader, particularly for choiring. I did a gig at Sydney Opera House a few years ago where hundred of singers from all over Oz gathered on Saturday morning to bash their way through Mendelssohn’s Elijah for a concert on Sunday afternoon. That was awesome. Sight reading for piano is a bit more problematic because two hands etc.

      Back in Cornwall I was in a cappella choir where no music was written down, largely because our leader, who did all the arrangements, couldn’t read or write music. She was a bit of a genius nevertheless – bit like Paul McCartney allegedly.

      I got 11/15 on the quiz – having never sung alto, I thought it was a bit unsporting to have so many alto clef questions.

      • What a splendid reply @mikethep. I did think of you and @Mousey as two contributors who definitely would be able to read music.

        But please: what was the name of that Cornwall composer who you mentioned?

        She definitely deserves a name check here!

        Incidentally, @mikethep, when I am in Sussex, I always enjoy talking to your sister about the choir in Brighton which she belong to.

        (For the rest of you, if you didn’t know, Mike’s sister is (completely by coincidence!) married to my cousin.
        It took me about four years as a contributor to realise this fact. This site is full of hidden, unexpected connections!

        That Afterworder who is always raving on about freeform jazz and Taylor Swift could well be your granny, writing under a non-de-plume).

        I woke up early this morning thinking about whether there are any similarities between dyslexia and the ability to read music which has been named “dysmusia”.

        I’m interested in this as our son is pretty badly dyslexic and it would great if reading music proved to be easier for him.

        That led me to this excellent article:

        https://theconversation.com/how-the-brain-reads-music-the-evidence-for-musical-dyslexia-39550

        For those wishing to learn about sight-reading music, there many good on-line resources.:

        https://www.musical-u.com/learn/how-to-start-sight-reading-music-in-choir/

        https://www.foothillsphilharmonic.com/downloads/how-to-read-choral-music.pdf

        https://www.ashleydanyew.com/posts/help-adult-choir-learn-to-read-music

        https://merseywavemusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Music-theory-for-choirs.pdf

        https://mfc-choristers.weebly.com/reading-music-101-lessons.html

        All these very useful sites do bring up some very pertinent questions about what should be taught in school music lessons.

        Part of it is encouraging the pupils to sing and play instruments themselves.

        But listening to and appreciating a broad range of different kinds of music surely must be equally important?

        Hopefully, we are all in agreement that music should be an key subject in any school curriculum. And the lessons should not be predominantly about getting the best grades.

        Earlier in this thread, I mentioned the joys of singing along as part of an enormous festival audience.

        I’m not a big Roger Waters fan. But joining in with 6, 000 people singing this earworm at Roskilde 2006 was seriously uplifting.

        • @kaisfatdad she wasn’t a composer*, she arranged music she liked and thought we could handle, all entirely out of her own brain, by the likes of White Stripes, REM, Rufus Wainwright, Fleet Foxes, and in this case Gillian Welch.

          Her name’s Victoria Abbott, and she’s still turning sows’ ears into silk purses vocally speaking in Cornwall, most recently with something she calls The Tone Deaf Choir. 🙂

          *Actually it seems she is these days…

      • Good for you. I haven’t taken a piano exam for over 40 years but I can still remember the feeling of dread and the very sweaty palms when the sight reading test was introduced. I always passed but it was often touch and go for that part

        • Dai Dai @Dai! The mention of your sweaty piano palms brought back a whole flood of memories.

          How strange now to think that we had a upright piano at home.

          I guess it was something that every middle class home should have in the 1960s.. My dad was from East Ham, my mum from a farm in the Prescelly HIlls, and they certainly had not had pianos in their childhood homes.

          But now they wanted the very best for their sons.

          And that my younger brother and I went to piano lessons in a large house in the posher part of Pinner ( oddly enough only 10 minutes or so walk from the decidedly unposh Pinner Green where Reg Dwight spend his childhood).

          I vividly remember the piano teacher’s name but I dread to repeat it even today.

          She was a tyrant and the personification of petit bourgeois respectability. She taught us nothing about the love of music. But a lot about the fear of punishment.

          On one occasion, it was my job to take my bro to piano lessons and to my dismay I couldn’t find anywhere. In the end I found him cowering in fear in my dad’s potting shed.

          There’s probably a special word for “fear of piano teachers”. “Planophobia?

    • I got 14/15. Haven’t needed to know what a plagal cadence is for about 60 years!

      My thoughts are reading music are pretty simple
      1. It’s not essential, but it can be bloody useful
      2. Start young. It’ll be so much easier

      • My apologies for plaguing you with a plagal cadence @Mousey!

        I think your thoughts on reading music are excellent. Somehow, at as early an age as possible, schools should find fun ways to introduce kids to reading music and other musical activities.

        A quick glance suggests that there are a lot of very lively YouTube clips and activities available.

        Here’s one on rhythm for example.

        Having mentioned a piano teacher who almost put me off music for life, it seems reasonable to mention a few other people who have done a lot to inspire the youth.

        Like Benjamin Britten.

        And Leonard Bernstein who had a life-long enthusiasm for getting kids interested in music.

        Imagine being one of the kids in the audience for one of Bernstein’s musical talks!

        There are lots more clips of Bernstein on YT.

        He was so very charismatic and entertaining,

        And his spirit lives on on this very comprehensive website.

        https://leonardbernstein.com/memories?page=6

        All the cinephiles among you will already know about Maestro, Bradley Cooper’s new biopic in which he plays the great man and his wife, Felicia Montealegre Cohn Bernstein, is played by Carey Mulligan,

        • If anyone is interested: BBC4 had a Bernstein night a week or so ago, screening performances, interviews, etc shown on the Beeb in previous decades. I assume it will all be easily found on iPlayer at the moment, since it was screened so recently.

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