Last night I saw Robben Ford. It was what I have come to expect – shit hot guitar playing and very average singing.
I was drawn to a comparison with Jeff Beck , not least coz he played the one telecaster all night. Jeffrey mixes instrumentals with songs featuring vocalists as in people who can sing. And it works rather well. I reckon the local 20 year old supporting Robben Ford would have done a better job on vocals and he’d have been cheap.
So what is it that compels good guitarists to do their songs such a disservice – ego or saving money?
Guitarists who are poor singers but who insist on being the lead singer
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Recently saw Johnny Marr supporting Blondie: great songs, lovely guy – not much of a singer.
I thought his voice was more than ok, to be honest. Almost Morrisseyesque on the Smiths numbers.
I think his voice is fine these days. He’s sounded good on his last couple of albums and at the Sheffield Academy a couple of years ago.
He may be a national treasure who I have a great deal of affection for but… Wilko Johnson.
Also, Bernard Sumner. I was watching a recent-ish New Order concert film on Sky Arts and thought “Hello. His voice has really gone.” Then I realised that it was actually always just not very good.
But surely Bernard’s guitar playing isn’t very good either? He’s more a singer than a player but… not much of either, really…
Is that you, Peter?
Mmm, I’m turning into the defence for the singers here, but apart from when he tried to copy Ian Curtis at the beginning, as well as some…most of his earlier live stuff, judging from what I’ve heard from bootlegs, etc, Barney’s voice has been just right for the songs New Order have done, and ruddy good songs they are too. From the late 80s onwards his live singing greatly improved. I mean, it had to, but I don’t think the pre-show medication was helping him.
Actually, not strictly a guitarist, but Hooky insisting on having his share of the vocals in his side projects and post-NO work isn’t always the best option.
Yes, the answer to the question “What would happen to my voice if I drank a bottle of Pernod first?”
What defined the sound of early NO records is the fact that Bernard can’t sing and play the guitar at the same time, so there was space.
Sumner is the one that always comes to mind for me too. Those who enjoy his voice more can reference ‘vulnerability’, ‘frailty’, ‘character’ or whatever but to me his voice is just feeble to the point of nearly unlistenable, and the weak point in a band which I might otherwise enjoy. There is the added problem that we already know what the band sound like with a good, though not technically able, singer.
The recent chat about John Squire – I take it we’ve all repressed our memories of his solo record.
Bernard Butler was not very good, but certainly not worse than your average UK indie singer – Mark Morriss for example.
Well, sometimes it can work out, with Hendrix for example. Eric Johnson is another one who should stick to guitar playing.
Hendrix was the example I was going to give, of a technically “poor” singer who nevertheless is the best man for the job. On paper, you would think it’s obvious he should stick to songwriting and guitar playing and let someone else do the lead vocals. But, as you say, it kind of works. I wouldn’t want it any other way. And it makes it all the more thrilling live when he is singing at the same time as playing: he seems to be “one with the song” in the way that a separate lead vocalist wouldn’t be.
In fairness to Jimi, he didn’t want to be the lead singer to begin with.
The thing being, of course, that he was a brilliant singer. Can you imagine anyone else singing “Little Wing”? Sensational vocals.
He definitely had an “attitude” in his voice that probably couldn’t be replicated by a technically great singer. I particularly love Stepping Stone and If Six Was Nine, two songs where you can hear a real joy and infectious arrogance.
*edit* Hang on, just realised you may be making a sly joke and it went over my head. Didn’t Eric Clapton cover Little Wing? I’ve never heard it, but I can’t imagine it’s anywhere near as good. (Come to that, I can’t imagine anyone covering ANY Hendrix song and improving it!)
Hendrix idolised Dylan and based his vocals on the Bringing it all Back home->Blonde on Blonde period. He’s obviously got a very different voice but once you know that it’s easy to hear.
Ry Cooder is a pretty poor singer, but he gets by.
Ditto Richard Thompson and (with less pleasing results) Nils Lofgren.
I recently passed a Ry box set on to another member of this parish. I just couldn’t get past the fact that his voice was just very dull and unremarkable, which smothered at birth any other enjoyment of the song.
I think that after a whole box set, the recipient was inclined to agree.
That’s very well put, @thecheshirecat and I can confirm that I do agree. Funnily enough, I had another try yesterday at The Slide Area. I want to like it and the playing sounds great but the voice sucks the life out of the songs for me.
Do you want the box back?
so long as you keep the CDs
Lol!
I’ve always liked Nils Lofgren’s vocals. I must admit I’ve not listened to his later material. I must go and check his later stuff out.
Nils is a good singer I think. Example, that live version of If I Should Fall Behind where everyone takes turns to sing the last line – Nils is far and away the best of the band. He also does a good vocal on his version of First Time Ever I Saw Your Face – pity the synth heavy intro almost spoils it.
Thompson isn’t a classically great singer by any stretch, but I don’t think that’s what he’s aiming for.
Thompson is an excellent singer, perfectly in tune and expressive but with a phrasing many don’t get, a bit like John Lydon actually.
I really like Nils Lofgren’s voice.
Sumner and Thompson….both have perfectly human, kind of vulnerable voices which I like in a vocalist. By the way how do you define a good/great vocalist?
You’ve kind of hit on the difference there yourself I think. Vocalist as opposed to singer. In the same way as Celine Dion is technically a better singer than Frank Sinatra, it’s Frank who can deliver the emotion behind the song far better than the totally soulless voice of Ms Dion.
See also: the “great records” versus “great songs” argument.
John Lydon is obviously an exceptional vocalist. He is only very occasionally any kind of of singer, let alone a ‘good’ one.
Absolutely. I was playing a bunch of Lydon-related tunes last night as it happens, and in awe of the emotional power that he generates from a career of sneering songs rather than, y’know, singing them.
“Rise” for example still makes the neck hairs stand to attention.
The “could be wrong” bits of that are perfectly sung. I know it’s only two notes, but hey…
The chorus of Liar is one of the greatest performances of anybody doing anything on a record, ever.
Saw Lydon and PIL a few years ago in Sydney after being given a spare ticket by a mate. I was completely and unexpectedly astonished by his soaring vocals. I still think he is the finest I have ever seen.
Steve Hackett. Cured and Highly Strung show particular limitations. Praise the lord for Nad Sylvan.
There is a school of thought among singing coaches that everyone can sing, but they have to find how best to use what they’ve got. Martin Simpson could not be considered a conventional vocalist, but is a good example of finding a way of delivering in an individual style. It also helps when he is giving his own voice to his own lyrics, which I rate highly.
That said, I sing quite a few of his songs, and there is a certain freedom in being able to sing them any way I wish, knowing there was no risk of mimicking him.
I really struggle with Martin Simpson’s voice – to the extent that I wouldn’t wish to buy any of his vocal albums. His 90s instrumental albums (mostly recorded/released in the US) are sublime – really fantastic. – in my view.
Oh yes – Simpson’s “Leaves of Life”, “A Closer Walk with Thee” and “Cool and Unusual” are all absolutely superb.
@Colin-H – I agree – Simpsons voice is hard work. I also think Martin Cathy’s voice is an acquired taste that I haven’t acquired.
Maybe I have found a market for my first CD – ‘thecheshirecat sings Simpson and Carthy’
Steve’s always said his vocals aren’t the best. He chips in with backing vocals live with his current band.
Eric Clapton – a passable singer
Yes , perhaps a bit more than passable as he progressed. I recall he thought the human voice the purest instrument.
Apart from the Grammy thing.
I was sure somebody would say this. Fascinating how differently we hear things. Steve Winwood always said that Clapton is a great singer. I think he is a great vocalist; pretty much never misunderstood a song or a lyric and have never heard him try something he couldn’t do. Certainly not Al Green but I always enjoyed his singing a great deal. Not saying therefore you are wrong – I don’t think that at all – more that our experience of him as a singer is so different.
Steve Howe, Steve Hillage … keep to the music, chaps
Bob Dylan.
He’s a guitarist?
An aside: I’d always taken Don’t Think Twice as proof that Dylan is actually a fantastic fingerstyle guitarist when he applies himself, and I always thought it odd that he didn’t display this talent more frequently in his output rather than just strumming everything.
However, then I read Paul WIlliams’ “Bob Dylan – Performing Artist” and I think he has cracked the mystery. Was it a coincidence that fingerstyle guitarist of renown Bruce Langhorn was also in the studio that day….?
Yes I heard about that, potentially not an”solo album” at all.
Noel Gallagher insisted on singing several Oasis songs in his painful squinting and straining manner whilst having the best singer of the 90s in the band with him.
I always thought Andy Bell was inferior to Mark Gardiner
except on those Erasure songs
I looked on the back on one of those albums and it said Vince Clarke and A Bell… you’d think he could stretch to some more sophisticated instruments etc
I didn’t realise Mariah Carey was in Oasis.
Ah, he wasn’t that bad, just needs to keep to his range and he is passable
Roy Buchanan
A five-star guitarist on the Fender Telecaster
Maybe a three-star singer
Happily, on his greatest song, he only needs to talk (‘The Messiah Will Come Again’).
I seem to recall that when I saw him in the 70s he’d engaged a vocalist instead of singing himself.
The vocalist on his first Polydor album is Chuck Tilley, it’s possible that Roy just did the vocal on ‘The Messiah Will Come Again’
He wanted a good vocalist but things never worked out long term.
Keef.
I can’t believe ect ect ect
Very soulful. Technically poor but he restricts himself to one or two per album, and they are sometimes the best tracks on them latterly (last 30 odd years)
Through and Through is great. Good enough fert’ Sopranos
…..Spoiler alert?
I very much like Losing My Touch. His grizzled but delicate vocals really suit the song.
Slipping Away is good too
And going right back to Let it Bleed, You Got The Silver is totally wonderful.
I agree he often gets to sing the best song but his voice…
I can’t think of any noted guitarist who is thought of as a remarkable singer too.
Most of the usual suspects also seem to be the principal writers of their bands material. Wanting to sing the song as well as play all the twiddly bits goes with the territory.
Re: “I can’t think of any noted guitarist who is thought of as a remarkable singer too.”
B.B. King, maybe?
Bluesmen! Buddy Guy, Elmore James, Muddy Waters, Otis Rush and Streatham’s own Dave Kelly.
Magic Sam, Robert Cray , Willie Nelson, Jason Isbell
Well if you’re all going.to refute my half thoughts with irrefutable facts then, er…
Please can I go to the toilet?
Glenn Tilbrook. A great singer and wonderful guitarist. His ability to do both at the same time is something to behold.
See also Roddy Frame. His vocals have improved a lot over the years.
Yes. Alright.
*pulls waistband of underpants up under armpits*. *storms off, stage left*
Bonnie Raitt.
Tsk. S’pose.
Sammy Hagar?
Have you not heard “Live, loud and clear,” @uncle-wheaty?
Woooooargh!
I used to own Loud and Clear.
Cant say it has passed through my ears for the last 40 years though.
Give it a go! It’s one of the very few albums from then I can still listen to, along with Heaven and Hell.
Lowell George comes to mind.
As always, the answer is Prince.
Indeed
Prince couldn’t sing? I wish someone had told me this before I bought all those records.
Nah, wrong end of stick. Responding to the rejections of Beezer’s statement up there.
The Rejections of Beezer. I could write a book.
For the avoidance of doubt, I’m titting about above.
And below.
Look, apart from BB King, Buddy Guy, Magic Sam, Elmore James, Robert Cray, Jason Isbell, Bonnie Raitt, Glen Tilbrook, Lowell George and Prince,I’m right.
Dignified as ever.
My middle name. 😁
One of the many advantages of going deaf is the inability to hear Billy Bragg.
What, the noted guitarist Billy Bragg? Who told you that? (was it in BSL?)
I like his guitarism. The intro to Between The Wars is spiffing. Then he starts singing and I look out for an approching trawler.
Speaking of foghorns, would somone please hand Florence a guitar and let one of her Machine have a go at the singing?
Ian Brown is the foghorn to which all other foghorns must be compared. His live efforts are truly “special”. DO NOT give this man a guitar.
Billy Bragg makes me want to vote Tory.
Arf!
Not my favourite, but George Benson has certainly managed to cut it both ways.
Leo Kottke memorably described his own voice (an unsubtle foghorn of a thing) as being “like geese farts on a muggy day”
I think I remember John Peel saying that Leo Kottke “plays guitar like Ray Clemence in goals, and sings like me in goals.” … or something along those lines.
Good call ( although I wouldn’t change his albums)
Dieter Bohlan. Wrote some fantastic tunes but poor vocally.
Ed Kuepper
Excellent songwriter, excellent guitarist but I can’t be the only one who always wished he’d hire someone else to sing.
The Saints didn’t have a lead singer for nothin’.
I did get used to his voice but the reverb here doesn’t even hide his inability to hold a note. He slides off nearly every note.
Zappa. Perpetually in monotone sneer
I thought about Frankie. Even bolstered by singers he continued to take lead mic.
Thing is Frank’s singing is so distinctive, emblematic of his whole sound.
Some of his singing is very good, in his limited range. The Closer You Are for example.
In his book he makes clear he knows he’s not a singer. Also, I quite like the contrast of this very ornery prosaic voice with all the elaborate hoopla in the background – Ruth Underwood playing 50 notes in 2 bars, that kind of thing.
Yep well said Mr Mooche
Hoopla! Oink!! Oink!!!
Foghorn Thompson springs to mind, what an expressionless dirge of a voice.
He’s already been tried and acquitted upthread.
But not to everyone’s satisfaction, claire-ly.
The Scottish Verdict, I think.
Not Proven.
Actually, thinking further about this thread, it has to be said that many people are fans of singer-guitarists who are not especially talented on either guitar or voice, but who have other qualities as their claim to fame. Lou Reed comes to mind. He sometimes makes Nils Lofgren sound like Pavarotti.
Lou Reed is a brilliant example. My favourite vocal performance of his might be Rock And Roll – his voice is all over the place but he just drives the song on and it sounds amazing.
Lou Reed couldn’t have carried a tune if it had been given to him by his mam in a plastic Scooby Doo lunchbox. Perfect vocalist for his songs though – compare the majority of covers of LR/VU songs.
Mick Jagger? Well, he sometimes plays guitar.
And he’s a poor singer?
No, he’s very rich.
I’ve grown quite fond of young Mick over recent years and I’ll tell you for why: he seems totally without affectation in his interviews. Especially the recent ones. It seems to me that so many celebs try and be funny or glib or appealing or whathaveyou in interviews. Mick seems to me one of the most straightforward interviewees. Just plain straightforward simple honest, unpretentious answers to the questions he gets asked. I like that.
How many megastars would be prepared to send themselves up like this.
The child in me was tempted to draw a ‘tache on him, turning him into Ron Mael.
I think he might consider himself to be more of a singer than a guitarist. Don’t think he picked one up in anger until Some Girls and rarely since
Anyone heard the “feem toon” to Slow Horses yet?
If wild horses couldn’t drag him away, what chance do slow horses have?
Yeah it’s pretty good but the lyrics are a tiny bit on the nose aren’t they?
This idea of technically good singers covering rock songs has of course come up before where the example of Mick Hucknall singing Neil Young’s Mellow My Mind was evoked to illustrate how this is rarely a good idea. The rock song is born of the moment where a performance is captured then and there and the shambolic, rough aspect is part of the expression behind the recording. It’s a good thing.
Getting away from “singing” guitarists, temporarily, that’s where most bands covering Steely Dan come unstuck. Technically good singers just sound wrong doing stuff that was written for Donald Fagen’s flawed croaking.
Only A Fool Would Say That
https://youtu.be/DS-9BXdeSaE
Should have said “technically good MALE singers”, shouldn’t I.
As it happens, one of the female vocalists for my favourite Dan cover band gets to step up front and sing that one live. She also does “Do It Again” and a couple originally sung by David Palmer. They seem to work well with female voices.
Do you think Eli Paperboy Reed can sing? I really like this version of Do It Again.
He can certainly sing, but that’s just horrible, for reasons I can’t explain.
Fire in the hole, by Sara Isaksson and and Rebecca Tornqvist?
Feel mean to add this, but for a singer-songwriter who came up on the folk circuit Michael Chapman’s vocals were limited. No doubt it suited the melancholy ambience of his best work, but on this early, rocking single he is struggling.
Jerry Garcia wasn’t much of a singer. Played guitar a bit though.
The Dead had no good singers. But somehow their shambolic “harmonies” worked.
Sort of…