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  2. Well, ok. If you are vocal on the JK Rowling side of the ‘Transwomen are women’ debate then you’re going to get called a lot of very bad things on Twitter. If you keep on provoking the people saying those things to the point where you’re constantly spoiling for a fight – and I mean constantly, every hour of every day – you’re no longer a useful advocate for the side you’re supposed to be on.

    If that makes sense. Not much about this whole issue makes sense really

  3. Why live life on Twitter? Seems to be a lot of people seeking affirmation by indignantly stating binary entitled views, all in a pretty intolerant tone. There are serious conversations to be had about life right now but they are not fruitful or critically friendly when conducted on Twitter, and particularly not useful in legitimately challenging each other. I’m out, except I’ve never been in. And my wellbeing levels are good without FB, Twitter and WhatsApp.

  5. As a twitter user I’ve sort of been aware of this. He hasn’t done himself any favours on there really has he? Shame to see the writer of the mostly pretty funny Father Ted sink this way.

  6. Gender’s social/ psychological, sex biological, so I am a-ok with transgender, as it’s their trousers to wear. If you are troubled by your bits, body dysmorphia is recognised, and cosmetic surgery is possible. Live how you want. Nobody knows what another person’s experience is, and we need to have empathic imagination (often sadly missing) to see anyone else’s perspective, irrespective of gender or ethnicity.

    But i don’t like the current rhetoric and gas-lighting (and social media pile-ons) bullying people to claim these gender adaptions change actual chromosomes. A young ‘un told me having long hair and coloured clothes indicates one was gender questioning. They obviously never saw Brighton in the mid-70s. When was it stereotypes of what was male or female came back, and why is this right-on?

    • The stereotypes never really went away, did they? But I find all this deeply confusing. I support the right of anyone, in this case trans people, to define themselves however they see fit, and I also support feminists. The two groups seem at each others’ throats currently.

  7. Yes it’s a shame that Linehan and Rowling are seen as the Bernard Manning and Jim Davidson of our time. That’s certainly how my 19 year old views them.

    What I can’t reconcile with today’s youth is their high tolerance of misogyny in music. I really don’t like how often “bitch” is used. Hate it.

    • This is how old we are. If you say something like”I think maybe women and girls should have the option to undress and shower in a place where there aren’t penises” you’re basically Satan.

    • Tell us about the intolerance to misogyny in 60s and 70s rock music back in the day. I must have missed that. I’m sure that as a fan of the likes of the Stones and Led Zep it would have come on my radar.

      • I think I probably agree about the 60s and 70s rock music! But I think the 80s and 90s genuinely were a bit better for this – not perfect, obviously. Nobody thought Marc Almond or Brian Molko or Brett Anderson or Boy George or Phil Oakey were literally women (or not men) because they enjoyed certain clothes and behaviours which were though of as feminine. (Other than yer da: “IS THAT A GIRL OR A BOY, CHRISSAKE.” But he wasn’t really in any doubt.)

        Now, if Sam Smith likes a bit of lipstick, everyone including them insists that they aren’t actually a man. That doesn’t seem like progress to me: it seems like reinforced gender stereotypes – if you like or behave (a), that makes you a girl. If you like or behave (b), that makes you a boy. I’m pretty sure we used to be fine with boys not liking to be traditionally masculine, and girls not liking to be traditionally feminine.

        You used to get things like that lovely Lego ad from 1981 with a little girl, dressed simply in a t-shirt and jeans and trainers, building something. Can you imagine seeing this now? https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2009/07/3717671129_64985bd5c6.jpg

        In 2020, you get a line of women’s Biros – pink, natch – and that girl would be depicted playing with princess Lego. Again, I don’t think that seems like progress.

        Or guidance from a trans charity which says “Sometimes in younger children, this may surface with boys playing with dolls and other traditionally female toys, or girls who refuse to wear dresses or hate having long hair.” That doesn’t seem like progress to me either.

        It’s weird some of the stuff that now gets called progressive.

        • Precisely. As for that misogyny in 60s and 70s rock, it was toe curling for most, and jerks liked it. It was also heard on reggae, and bluebeat (“10 commandments”, anyone?) and has never left rap’s grubber corners, so righteousness can’t be partisan.

          • I realise this might be a bit… I dunno. But I find it interesting that hip hop as a whole is very Black Lives Matter of late, and understandably so.

            But lots of it has always been perfectly fine with objectifying and abusing half the population. I like lots of rap, but I can absolutely imagine a rock musician being found problematic for racial language in the past and cancelled – maybe Elvis Costello for the “white n******” line in Oliver’s Army will come to someone’s attention soon, or Brown Sugar.

            So why isn’t Dr Dre, say, cancelled for pretty much his entire back catalogue? tbh the case for the prosecution could pretty much just play Bitches Ain’t Shit in court and then rest.

            Seems to me… context would be used to excuse Dre – it’s the culture, it was 30 years ago, you don’t understand what life was like in Compton back then, everyone was doing it.

            Do you reckon the same contextual mitigation would wash for the hypothetical rock musician? Racism against black people is systemic and disgusting and needs to end, but misogyny isn’t any less systemic and disgusting and affects half the people in the world.

            Personally my answer to both of these is that neither should be stricken from the record. I want to listen to Dr Dre and I want to listen to Brown Sugar, and Black Licorice. I know they’re all terribly incorrect, but I don’t want them expunged, same way I don’t want Oliver Cromwell removed from the Houses of Parliament. It happened, much of it isn’t OK, but let’s maybe fix things in the future rather than trying to revise the entire past.

            Christ, sorry, that was really rambling and off topic.

  9. I don’t Twit as I think it would be bad for my blood pressure.

    Why can’t someone invent a social media with the strapline ‘live and let live’? Or ‘don’t be a twat’ would do for starters.

  10. Can I say something controversial? Graham Linehan getting kicked off twitter might help his mental health. He strikes me as a man who spends too much time on there, in a certain area of it, who now can’t see a female space without imagining a man masturbating in it.

    I do not deny that this happens and is terrible. I also don’t think it is as frequent an occurrence as he would have us believe.

    Really that’s it. Some people just need less time of social media and that’s all there is to it.

    I am spending less time on social media. I was kicked off twitter myself over Brexit so I know of which I speak. A lot less time online these past few years has been good for me and I recommend it.

    I hope Mr Linehan might come to think the same thing.

    • I can think of a few Corbynista diehards of my acquaintance who would benefit from some time away from social media. Would provide some relief to the rest of us as a side benefit.

      • I dont have a problem with Trans – we have a close family member who had made the change.
        I also dont have a problem with JK Rowlings comments although dont think they were very well articulated considering she is a writer by profession.
        I do have a problem with Twitter which is basically full of nonsense largely posted by crack heads and rabble rousers.

      • The Corbynists take on the trans debate is the crashiest of woke car crashes. Men like Russell Lloyd-Moyle and Owen Jones telling women their concerns about sexual assault are overstated and transphobic. Twitter is the reason they can get away with it – they have followers who will gleefully bully anyone who tries to question them

        • Funny this morning though. Owen doubling down by retweeting Ronan Burtenshaw, woke woman hater par excellence, in support of LRM. Then a nanosecond later LRM – presumably on the advice of m’learneds – delivered the most abject apology, leaving little Owen somewhat swinging in the wind. A heart of stone etc etc

          Anyway, on the subject of Glinner I’ll only say this: he’s not a man who’ll let being correct on a particular issue (which he is on self-ID) get in the way of being a massive arsehole. He’s a massive arsehole, and always was, and has done no cause any good whatsoever, ever, because he’s so manifestly unpleasant.

          • Poor Owen, all he’s trying to do is defend the indefensible, when even the person he’s defending knows they’re in the wrong.

            Jones and Linehan are alike in that they are the worst possible exponents of the positions they adopt. They’re more likely to drive people away from their point of view than towards it. Therefore on this issue they cancel each other out.

            Jonathan Pie’s latest includes a pop at ‘perma-offended woke twats who will destroy you if they perceive your opinion differs from that of the average Guardian journalist.’ Can’t imagine which ‘average Guardian journalist’ he has in mind…

            • I like him … one or two of his rants first thing in the morning is just what the doctor ordered.
              The one about swearing in Salford Quays (who wouldn’t f***** swear if they found themselves in Salford f**** Quays?) is brilliant.

  11. He wasn’t always a massive arsehole. I spent an evening in his company when he was back living in Dublin in the early 00s. We were both recently returned after living in London for years and we both had plenty of views to agree and disagree on. I found him to be opinionated but interesting and thoughtful. He was good company and a very nice man. This issue seems to have got under his skin in a very toxic way. Both sides have long abandoned any notion of civilised discourse. As stated above, removal from Twitter might give him the headspace to step away for a while and restore some sort of equilibrium. In all likelihood I’d expect him to take the argument elsewhere.

    As for the issue itself I expect more mainstream discussion once self-declaration starts to impact on the world of women’s sport at the highest level and closer to my own world of work, female detention settings. I fear that things are going to get more toxic and polarised before they get better.

    • I think he’s one of those people who has some fairly ordinary personality problems which likely didn’t manifest back before social media existed. But he was an early Twitter adopter and has used it consistently to just shout at people, long before the trans thing was ever a thing. He used to be a common or garden PC virtue signaller, on the “right” side of every social issue, and furiously angry with anyone who wasn’t. Then this came along and he became a total single issue maniac, consumed with hate. (Again, I should say that I’m broadly on “his side”, so I don’t use the H-word lightly).

      The internet is like the cabin of a car. You feel falsely insulated from the reality of the road and that makes some people behave in ways they never would outside it. Linehan hardly seems to have taken a minute off since Twitter launched, and so many of those minutes have involved him hectoring at others that it seems to have made him awful.

  12. I use some social media like anyone else, but every time I am tempted by Twitter, I back off. It just seems a paranoid medium, or at least I am certain it would make me paranoid. And what I have seen of Linehan reinforces that point.

    • I came late to Twitter and by carefully choosing whom I follow (and quickly deleting anybody who turns out to be in real life a twat) I really enjoy it. I fully accept I mostly follow people (eg James O’Brien and John Crace) who broadly reflect my own politics or artists I really like (eg Jason Isbell and Billy Bragg) and if that keeps me in my politics-culture bubble then so be it.

      • Another recent user, here. I feel the same, so far. I just follow a few people I admire/like the jib of their cut and try to ignore the rest. I found at first i was becoming a little bit obsessed by it, it was the first thing that I’d do upon waking and the last thing at night [and too many times in between] but I think that was just the novelty, which is now wearing off. It can be a grim and depressing place, no doubt about it and I understand why people either avoid getting involved at all or feel they need to take a break or even stop all together, but it can also be a source of fun and joy. I find it’s like most things in life that you aren’t obliged to do — if you can’t find a healthy balance you’re either doing it wrong and you need to change things up, or you should probably stop.

        • that’s why I followed actor John Cusack, who then Tweet-yelled at me and blocked me when he stepped out of his usual Trump-bashing to spread unsubstantiated scaremongering that 5g will make everyone ill, and I (gently and politely) asked if he had any evidence. The platform encourages strong opinions tersely phrased with barely any room for nuance.

      • I’ve done the same thing. I’ve curated my feed. I think that’s the point. It’s exactly what the Afterword does too. When a member of the community becomes unruly it warns said member of the acceptable boundaries expected and when ignored after repeated warnings it is exiled to think again. Entirely reasonable and good for all concerned. It is also a good idea to welcome back from exile those that genuinely exhibit a willingness to abide by the guidelines without giving up their individuality.

  13. What I’m finding interesting (after looking into Linehan’s form, only having known – and loved – IT Crowd) is that many of us seem unusually well-adjusted in terms of the storm/teacup aspect of social media. This is refreshing. After spending some time navigating my stance on the issue itself, it was nice to see acknowledged that a subtext here is our relationship with social media (being, as someone said above, the cabin of the car, from which we swear and wave fists and wish death upon people we’d be kinder to on the street). While Linehan and all this palaver is taking place, there are real people in therapists’ rooms, local councils, playgrounds, at dinner tables, experiencing these issues as they are lived day-to-day in the actual real world.

    (I remember hearing once that being instagram-famous is like being Monopoly-rich.)

      • Monopoly rich! Instagram famous. Marvelous!

        I was delighted this week to discover that, without any suggestion from us, our 17 year old was watching the. IT crowd.

        Linehan is a wonderfully talented man. I do hope that being off Twitter will do him some good.

        The only ones I pay any real attention to on Twitter are Olive and Mabel. Most of the rest of them are barking mad.

  14. Thank you all for replying to this.

    If this mattress brought up ‘elsewhere’ the you are pilloried for even asking a question about the trans matter -(see John Cleese)

    However I am concerned that I am fine with Katie Hopkins getting banned and being slightly miffed at Linehan.

    Hypocrisy Is the Greatest Luxury, it seems

    • I don’t believe Hopkins does or says anything unless it is calculated to cause offence or draw attention to herself. So I don’t believe her (said in a Dylan voice).

      I believe Graham Linehan though. I think he is genuine, and he just unfortunately got a bee in his bonnet about this particular issue and didn’t know when to walk away. Besides, he has immense amounts of good karma on his side for Father Ted and The IT Crowd.

      So, in short, I don’t really feel hypocritical about being happy for one to be banned from Twitter and sad that another was!

  15. I wonder if there’s a correlation between excessive Twitter use and poor mental health? Not saying one causes the other, just wondering if they combine to make both worse

    • There’s certainly a link between social media (of which Twitter is a part of) and mental health issues.

      I’ve very rarely ever had a falling out on any online medium, but this could simply be because I lack the energy to respond. However, I do think a lot a twitter spats escalate because withdrawal is seen as losing an argument. In real life, if a nutter is ranting at you, it would be wise to walk away; online, silence is too often seen as an admission of defeat.

      https://www.helpguide.org/articles/mental-health/social-media-and-mental-health.htm

      • Another reason to not go there in the first place.

        I accept I live in a bubble of only listening to BBC News and have a Facebook family linked to about 40ish people who are family or friends.

        I have no need to venture further.

        Apart from here of course!!

    • Definitely. I have only recently started Twitting, to promote my Bowie podcast and its been astonishing and sad to watch Linehan descend into what appears to be some sort of obsessive state. I would not feel happy if someone close to me, who was struggling with mental health problems, was regularly engaging on Twitter – the mob mentality, the constant need for affirmation and sheer weight of opprobrium users heap upon each other for the even the most trivial or inconsequential things, cannot be a good thing.
      Excessive Twittering can only shrink and destroy our brains. It is digital cocaine.

  16. Was on Twitter several years ago, when I had the time (actual tea braks and lunch breaks at work!) to devote to it. As my work life got busier (Teabreaks? Lunch breaks?) I could no longer keep up with the people I was following, in what were quite fast-moving streams of back-and-forth. Also the tone was getting increasingly nasty on the fringes of my Twitter space. More serious, less light-hearted banter. I got bored with it and just stopped bothering with it. Eventually I thought “fuck it” and unfollowed everyone and left.
    I don’t miss it.

  17. I only ever really go on Twitter when I get frustrated by the customer service experience of a company. Typically, they don’t respond or ring back. A quick comment with their Twitter ID seems to have remarkable results. I sometimes have a look at my feed when I do this and I remind myself why I only go on it when I’m a miffed consumer.

  18. So I gave up on Twitter during the 2011 London Riots when my working day was interrupted by constant alerts and it made me feel like society was breaking down during my lunch break – and I thought – this is not good for my mental health. Reflecting back a couple of weeks later I realised I’d rather hear this news when it’s been digested and verified and fact checked – I don’t need, and cannot handle everyone’s immediate gut reaction to everything as it happens. I can’t stomach that and never could. Nowadays I believe they call this Trigger Alerts.

    That retreat from social media has come at a price. A lot of the original Word Bloggers went over to Twitter and I had a less of a connection with Word pals as a result of not being on Twitter and I know that I’m very out of touch with things generally not being on Social media other than Facebook with people I know. I don’t suffer from FOMO – but I know I have missed out. I’m glad in a way, as I may well have got sucked into toxic arguments too and when I see people I’d expect better of like Linehan and Andy Partridge being ‘cancelled’ I know I’m better off out of it.

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