As many of you are probably aware, i’ve been living in Singapore for almost 30 years. My eldest boy has now completed his National Service (2yrs from 18yrs old) and is getting ready to go off to University this year, planning to do Biological Sciences.
He has a place at the National University of Singapore, which according to the various international league tables is rated as one of the best in the world. He has also applied to the UK universities via UCAS and as he already has his results, has been offered places at all 5 choices.
We had always assumed that he would go to the UK and based on my experience in the world of work, those in Singapore who have been overseas tend to do better (more independent etc etc).
However (and maybe this maybe just slight trepidation as it gets close to decision time), he has recently started to question whether it is worth going to the UK to get a degree or whether he should just do his degree in Singapore and then do post graduate in the UK later. Part of this is due to reading about unhappiness amongst students in the UK, lecturers planning on going on strike and questioning on the value of a UK University education (he reads The Guardian).
I always used to have the impression that UK universities were still highly regarded, but having been here for so long, I’m probably out of touch.
So is a UK University education worth it (remember we will pay overseas fees, so even more expensive)? Would the benefits of independence etc outweigh the going to the local University that is higher ranked in the world? Any other thoughts / advice / comments?
For the record he is looking at Sheffield, Manchester, St Andrew’s, Durham and Warwick (which were all highly rated for his course in the Times guide). I went to Manchester and am from Sheffield, so can advise on those two, but I have no knowledge of the others, so again any insights appreciated.
You are completely correct in looking at the places that are highly ranked for the course he wants to do.
It’s not just about fees, although obviously they are a massive consideration. I get the strong feeling that a lot of the current unhappiness among UK students is due to the miserable experience so many of them have endured since early 2020. Online learning, lack of a social life and the whole student experience just wasn’t what most of them signed up for. I know this, as our oldest is just about to graduate and the youngest is just coming to the end of his first year. He has particularly struggled with it as like most of his age group he didn’t have the two “normal” years of 16-18 where you might normally expect them to build up more independence and resilience before they fly the nest for Halls at 18.
I know he’s done National Service, which I would think might have played a part but that could still be quite an ordered environment where the chance to be truly independent might not have been evident. So do you think he’s genuinely ready to go and live abroad? Circumstances and our experience have meant we’ve been glad our son has only been about 90 mins and an easy train ride or car journey away. Certainly your idea of doing postgrad in the UK seems a solid bet…have a more normal experience at a uni more local to you, and then he’ll be older, more confident and resourceful when/if he chooses a postgrad option in the UK. Other opinions are available of course but given the situation still affecting everyone, in my view a bit of playing it safe isn’t always a bad thing.
Thanks. I think he is ready to live abroad – having done two years National Service, he will be 21 by the time he starts Uni and so is probably a little more mature than when I went (also he spent a lot of his time during National Service away from home in camp).
I get that a lot ofd the dissatisfaction is due to the online learning and I believe that that is now improving. However, I do note there have been more general rumblings about whether University eduction is worth it etc…..
I don’t know about the specific universities your son has in mind, but the the position re online learning is mixed, to say the least.
“Research into 146 UK universities conducted this month by UsForThem shows that the prevalence of online learning has persisted over the course of the 2021/2022 academic year”
https://usforthem.co.uk/resources/term-3-review-of-teaching-delivery/#:~:text=Research%20into%20146%20UK%20universities,the%202021%2F2022%20academic%20year.
Everything in universities is about bums on seats. Online learning has become a way of getting more bums without having to provide the seats.
And yet the fees remain the same. Value for money? In terms of delivery I have my doubts but in the longer term I guess only time and job acquisition will tell.
Thanks – that’s a useful read. Will pass on to the boy.
“Blended learning” works for some. Offspring the Elder is 100% deaf in one ear and watches the online lectures with the subtitles on – even the ones she went to in person – in case she missed something at the time.
In the same way I still WFH ‘cos I (a) have bad guts which don’t travel well and (b) prefer my dining room to a sweaty office on an industrial estate, staring at the delivery bay of the massive Tesco.
In terms of value for money, I was struck by a comment I read yesterday written buy the mother of a science student at a Russell Group university. Her daughter get to spend half a day a week in the lab, on top of which there are a few online lectures she attends virtually sat in a dismal halls room. The mother’s view was her daughter might as well have stayed at home and done an OU course. That might or might not be a true, but its an interesting point.
Another point being discussed was the move by many of the more prestigious institutions to continue run some ( or in one case all) of their exams as remote, open book affairs. There are doubtless pros and cons to doing this, but some people were concerned that students getting good results through this approach would always be treated with some caution by future employers.
I don’t know anything about relative merits of Singapore unis v the UK but can report that my daughter has just finished a 3yr course in Zoology (a branch of the Biology degree) at Sheffield. Yes the Covid period was difficult as it was for everyone , but overall she loved the course , the Uni and the city. I was born and raised in nearby Rotherham although I left 50 yrs ago, so it was like life was turning a big circle. Sheffield is very high in the student satisfaction league.
I think most of the recent gripes have been due to Covid, online lectures and having to pay for accomodation, despite not being able to stay in it due to lockdown rules.
The Sep 2020 intake were unlucky, confined to their rooms and lectures delivered online while nobody was vaccinated and Covid ripped through the student population. We visited someone in Lincoln this time last year, in order to get a look at the Halls (the Open Days had all been online up to that point).
Offspring the Elder has been very happy since she went last Septmber, she finds the £4500 plenty to live on (Bank of Mum & Dad pay for the £7500 Halls fee).
I also know a few slightly older types who are now graduating and had wonderful times. I’ve not heard any grumbles.
The alternative in the UK is for Appreticeships with day/block release for college. Harder to juggle and the pay is pretty terrible. When they do graduate, they then have to work for peanuts for years afterwards to repay the debt to the employer.
I think in the greater scheme of things, the £9250 tuition fees loan might put off a few who would have otherwise applied for a 3-year doss, but youngsters today seem much more focused/sensible anyway, even before GCSE age.
He did bring up the relative costs of Singapore vs UK (we would be paying overseas fees, so more like $25K a year), but I don’t really want that to be a deciding factor – we put in place some investments 20 years ago that should cover the fees.
I’d be inclined, if funds allow, to pay for him to come to the UK and actually visit the Universities in question. He’s old and wise enough to gather a decent impression of the places – and most importantly the courses – over two or three days at each. Couse sylabuses tell less than half the story. Current thrid years will fill him in on the nitty gritty. I feel a good exploratory visit would be worth its weight in regretful hindsight.
You can get a pretty good feel for a place in an afternoon. He could visit all of them in a week.
I thought that. Went to Exeter. Wished I hadn’t.
Sorry for typos due to rushd tping
That may be an option – we’ve not been back to the UK for a couple of years and are planning to be back this summer at some point.
I may be available in the UK for sling consumption.
🙂
Similar to comments above but I’d definitely still recommend going to a UK university like one you mention. Durham is still outstanding I know for having a relation there recently.
I’d just check wherever you pick is doing proper teaching again instead of online and have reverted to normal rules around the campus , as there’s really no reason for them not to be now. But I think most places are now
Our daughter graduated from University of Arts London in publishing, journalism and PR and have to say she is thriving and has had the pick of a number of jobs. The whole Uni experience was tarnished by Covid but she finished with a decent degree.
I have 2 relatives who both went to Warwick and both are very complimentary. It has a vibrant campus with a great concert hall/cinema.
Has he considered giving up the whole ghastly business, packing a few books in a backpack and heading out On The Road to find himself? Is this not an option any more?
I think he would love to do that – a combination of his mother wouldn’t approve and the fact he has “wasted” three years before Uni doing National Service will probably prevent though……
Boy, are you outta touch! University is compulsory now. It’s replaced National Service. Square-bashing with added sex and booze….
….sorry @chrisf I meant “With added diligent studying”
I have two on campus at the moment – one at Nottingham doing English (attracted by the medieval and early English expertise) and one at Bristol doing Geography (attracted by the 4-year course with a year abroad plus the fact they get a BSc and not BA). Both are very happy with their choices. Agree that money spent on campus visits would be money well spent. We know a friend’s son who went to Sheffield and had a very good time. Both ours have in-person and online stuff – including the two-hour exam sat in our front room this morning – and I am inclined to think that this part of a wider social change. Many of the jobs they will be applying for will be a mixture of face to face/office and online work, and the fact that all of my university lectures and seminars were in person reflected the fact that the internet hadn’t (just) been invented yet. What hasn’t changed is that two university departments can look very different (Manchester English is big on the Victorians) and spending time getting to know the modules and teachers will again be a good investment.
Bod from Fonda 500 is Associate Prof. at Nottingham. I wonder if she lectures Moles Jr?
https://theconversation.com/profiles/natasha-hodgson-181036
Quality stalking, dude.
Please send a bucket of ice water. My hands and thighs are on fire.
She’s a Professor as well. Does that mean she has ceremonial robes?
………smelling salts for Mr Fenton, please!
Sorry to disappoint the medievalists but they’re at Nottingham Uni not NTU.
Well, bless my crumhorn!
As others have said, I think a lot fo the negative stuff relates to the Covid period, and also to the fact that lecturers did seem incredibly risk averse when it came to going into lecture theatres and seminar rooms even after most areas of work had returned to at least some workplace activity. I think by next term that will be gone. I think most Unis will still be offering online and hybrid sessions but in person sessions are back in place and certainly my local Uni seems very aware that they have work to do to ensure the in person student experience is good, not least for international students who pay a large proportion of the bills.
There are still strikes from time to time but they are relatively limited so far as I can tell. All four Univeristies your son is looking at have good reputations both academically and in terms of student experience – if they are highly rated for the course he wants to do then I would think he will be fine going there.
A lot of the lecturers of my acquaintance are, shall we say, men of age and substance. It’s reasonable that they wouldn’t want to be in confined spaces with a bunch of people who are very unlikely to be either jabbed or observing any covid safety guidance whatsoever. Also there is no reason why a traditional person-talking-for-an-hour type lecture should take place in a room as opposed to online. People are far more likely to attend the latter and being able to play it again when you need to is probably beneficial.
My son’s just finished a 4 year course in Edinburgh. One normal year, 2 years where strikes followed by covid severely restricted the teaching, and a final year affected by strikes and blended learning which led to 1 face to face meeting with tutors per week.
Obviously, there’s the social side but coming out with a 50k debt doesn’t seem worth it compared to what was actually provided. Take your point re lecturers being risk adverse but actually personal tuition is what people are paying for…..
Thank you all for the comments and inputs – they have been very helpful.
It’s now looking like he is leaning back towards the UK University route and looking at St Andrews as the preferred choice.
One further bureaucratic pain is regarding visa’s (thanks Priti!) – by rights he is a British Citizen through me, but is currently holding a Singapore passport (as Singapore do not recognise dual nationality). As he is a British Citizen, he should not need a student visa (which costs about £500 a year with the health surcharge). He could apply for a British passport but that may cause issues with Singapore. He is currently seeking advice from the Universities but it looks like there a a “Right To Abode” certificate that he can get (which still costs almost £400 !!), which may be the best option. All good fun. If there are any Immigration lawyers on here…….. 😉
My son is at St Andrews and its reputation is now up there with Oxford and Cambridge. Well worth looking at – a very small town, safe environment. But remember if cost is in any way an issue that degree courses in Scotland last four years, not three as they do in England.
Lovely little town, with access to the East Neuk for even more loveliness. (And some rough bits.)
Also worth remembering that lectures are only 9-5 (and a lot less if you’re not studying Engineering). You have to like the town you live in for the other waking hours.
My school chum went to Cardiff Uni over Birmingham because his hobby was wind surfing. I chose Reading over UMIST because I am very dull (and I liked seeing trees on campus).
If Junior’s hobbies include, say, London jazz, Aberystwyth might not be the best choice of location. Etc.
9 to 6 at Hull, I’ll have you know. It’s a tough life for geographers…
Well I did choose UMIST – does that make me not dull ?
Perhaps not quite so *very* dull.
Given that the Hacienda all kicked off during my time in Reading, it was probably for the best. I doubt I’d have made it to my second year before UMIST kicked me out.