I was talking with a sociology type and they were saying that many youth cultures were really the record companies appropriating some street fashion to push a band or a new type of music, and were not really that based on a subculture of any kind. It got me wondering about youth subcultures that came and went, or were pretty much artificially forced to start with. Others are local scenes and forgotten as they were marginal to a London-centric rock media when we were dependent on the inkies.
I would see the 80s Essex funk scene as something that was actually big but marginalised as not rock enough.
The hippie traveller scene, likewise, but too uncool so near to punk.
Grebo – too west midlands?
Punk pathetique – never even started really.
Oi – cancelled or engineered out?
were there scenes that have been forgotten, have some been buried due to social and cultural factors? Were you part of a forgotten sociological subgrouping?
Views, readers?
What about retro scallies? Young men, sometimes very young, in the 80s in the north west who spurned modern pop music in favour of old psychedelic and early prog rock. It’s the culture that gave us Shack, the La’s and Stone Roses – and perhaps even “the Lads” from FGTH with their very un-punk fondness for Floyd.
Wish I’d been in the north west at that time. Though being in Brighton meant that stuff never really went away.
It sounds fairly unpleasant really – a bunch of lads in trainees skinning up in foetid council housing.
If you don’t mind: I spent much of my late adolescence and early 20s in such conditions. By the end of that we were not trainees, either; we were fully qualified.
Interesting – 2 of those mentioned (Oi and Punk Pathetique) were Garry Bushell inventions in the pages of Sounds.
Neither had a great deal of musical prowess attached – it was more about attitude and getting up there and doing it.
Despite the shortcomings, it is surprising how many of the bands actually made a career out of it and are still treading the boards.
Although shock news on that front – The Cockney Rejects have announced their retirement from touring
Casuals – all Pringle jumpers and Farah trousers. Don’t think this was a musical sub-culture, more closely related to football hooliganism / away days.
Casuals loomed large in my teenage years. You’re right – music wasn’t the main driving force from what I could make out. Any music they did go for was pretty awful. Lady Diana haircuts for the lads, golfing clothes and garish jewellery. Despite the chick-persuin’ at your local nightclub and the care taken over appearance, it was a female-free group.
Greatest hits – “you starin’ me out?” and the classic “D’you spill my pint?”
Those huge scooped fringe things that made them look likre they were hiding under a pitta bread… and the worst shoes of any subculture ever. Often light grey slip-ons. Eeeeeyuk.
Seen going to Millwall FC with a rolled newspaper that could be compressed into an effective baton when in the inevitable ruck.
Most of my home-counties commuter town school were Casuals. We even had the wife of a Spurs player teaching us French.
You’d think giving someone a kicking whilst wearing Adidas Green Flash would make the toes hurt. That didn’t stop them. I was often their target.
I was the only post-Punk in the school, the Casuals couldn’t figure me out, so coined the nickname “Hippy”. One of my FB friends still calls me that. Shudder…
A footballer’s wife who can speak French? Is that even legal?
Other casual sexism is available
“French”. fnnrrr, arawkh, snurflpk….
I assumed Fents meant the language, but now you say that….
There was a West London band, Accent, who were briefly pushed as being a “Casual” affiliated group, and certainly wore all the gear, however I think they were a bit more of a bandwagon effort, as I think they may have made a live appearance at half time during a QPR game, and may(?) even have had links with Shepherd’s Bush menswear emporium, Stuart’s, which is actually still there, all these years later.
Important to note that music journalists never have and never will be the driving force of a new youth culture or fashion. It’s a bit of a Holy Grail to be acknowledged as someone who uniquely coined a phrase or started a fashion.
If we look back to punk, those writers that were there at the very start and are wheeled out for anniversary shows, really just happened to be there at the time.
And they are still all out there. The only thing that seems to be missing is the youth element. The yearly Skinhead Reunion in Brighton. Rebellion punk festival Blackpool. My football friend who still spends a fortune on quality “terrace wear”. The two Teddy boys that run a hardware stall on Leeds Kirkgate market. All well into their 50s and all still flying the flag for their particular subculture. Good for them.
In 73 I was at Leeds University to see the Kinks, support was Bill Haley and his Comets. Someone joined us in the queue in full Teddy boy gear who I was at school with who was even younger than me.
If they are in their 50s they must be a sub sub culture.
I shall seek these two out next week when I visit Leeds.
Thursdays. Second hand market. Look out for the grey quiffs and Crazy Cavan t-shirts.
Next Saturday I shall be there but I’ll try a Thursday later.
I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.
The Nazi skinhead is England’ s most successful cultural export. Everywhere there are white people the cherry red DM marches on.
Garry Bushell probably claims he invented that one too
*stares at footwear*
I feel misunderstood.
Shoegazers – there’s another one
Did anyone actually identify as a ‘shoegazer’? Hard to imagine that bands would say, on yeah, we’re part of the shoegazer movement. It sounds like a label you’d have thrust upon you. I dunno, can’t remember.
On a related point, I’d argue that there needs to be a critical mass of bands for a description to qualify as a culture. To keep it simple, I propose that if Cherry Red records has not yet released at lead one 3 CD box set compilation of the movement, then it didn’t really exist outside of the NME.
In which case, Shoegaze qualifies.
https://www.cherryred.co.uk/product/still-in-a-dream-a-story-of-shoegaze-1988-1995/
Yikes! Please don’t tell me there’s a Grebo one.
Nearest I can think of is the 4-CD 75-track collected works of PWEI. Not that I’ve played them in years, but some acts just haven’t aged well.
https://www.cherryred.co.uk/product/pwei-def-comms-86-18-pop-will-eat-itself-communications-1986-2018-4cd-deluxe-boxset/
Gaye Bikers… The Stupids… That’s it, isn’t it?
The Stupids were Hardcore I think. Wahever that was. I think Grebo was the Gaye Bykers, PWEI and maybe The Wonder Stuff.
The Neds as well?
I mean Ned’s Atomic Dustbin, not a bunch of young Glaswegians in tracksuits
Crazyhead, the Bomb Party, Lesbian Dopeheads on Mopeds, Mutoid Waste Corporation. Even the Batfish Boys were sometimes lumped in. The ‘2nd division’ of several scenes seemed to mark the periphery between the nuclei of the musical genre map – where would you put Back to The Planet, The Moonflowers, Daisy Chainsaw, or Carter USM, Jesus Jones, EMF, Eat?
All those are just labels. We know that music is music. Well, music, loosely defined.
Crazyhead! That was the other band I was thinking of but couldn’t remember. I still have the 12″ of What Gives You the Idea That you’re So amazing Baby? Good song.
I think the Neds, Carter USM etc came a bit later. They came in that brief era between Madchester and the first Suede single that HAS NO NAME.
Carter USM released
their first album In nineteen ninety
(including The Taking of Peckham 123) –
Between the end of the “Madchester” craze
And the Suede’s first EP.
The whole first Crazyhead album, Desert Orchid, was pretty good although sadly nothing else came close. They were much more Garage Rock than Grebo, though, apart from coming from Leicester. Diesel Park West were much better.
Back on the road this year supporting Gaye Bikers On Acid. No one ever really dies, do they?
I would say the Essex Funk scene (of which I know nothing) was probably part of the wider S E phenomenon which was well established by the mid 70s – that of Soul Boys. Pretty hard to pin down a style because in a very (original) mod way, new fads & styles were perpetually emerging & being chased down, but it ranged from almost golf/sports casual at one end ( Gabicci tops & Farah slacks) to Bowie ( think David Live or Stationtostation) meets underground gay disco at the other – massive pleated ‘pegs’ trousers with what would later be called ‘Jam’ shoes – 2 tone footwear, usually slip on & often in loud colours like blue & white or green & white. Some ( those most obsessed with labels) would evolve into casuals, with obviously northern counterparts as well, whilst others got deeper into the whole jazz funk thing – which included going to gigs by Earth Wind & Fire, Roy Ayers & especially Frankie Beverley & Maze, whose gigs sold out in minutes. I’d suggest it was this crowd – natural habitat: The Lyceum for Capital Radio’ s ‘Best Disco In Town’ or Caisters holiday camps for Soul Weekenders complete with foam & whistles all the way back then, that gave birth to artists like Junior Giscombe & Level 42 who were probably the bridge between the old mod & Northern Soul culture & the later ravers who emerged in the late 80s.
As far as I know, it’s a culture/subculture that’s almost completely undocumented, probably because it was mostly nebulous & working class & had no chin stroking aspect whatsoever. Rather than the indies, it’s publications, such as they were, were Blues & Soul & Black Echoes.
I always associate most people I recall from back then as being apolitical, comfortably multiracial & just very into dancing & being well turned out & ‘clean’.
Then there were the ‘Bowies’ – not Futurists or New Romantics, but definitely a bit post punk – think John Foxx, Caberet Voltaire, probably v early Psychedelic Furs – sometimes biggish ‘punky’ hair, the obligatory ‘Bowie’ mac, a trench coat, long & dark green, with a belt ( always tied) with epaulettes, usually worn with Kung Fu slippers or suede boots & unremittingly ‘serious’ looking. As some indeterminate point, they faded or presumably mutated into something else.
Yes, largely undocumented though the likes of Robert Elms have blethered about it a bit. Where I grew up near Oxford there was a substantial soul scene, almost exclusively working class, obsessed with clothes, very picky about music. The only accepted exceptions to black American acts were Bowie, Roxy Music, maybe the AWB. Plastic shoes, mohair jumpers, peg trousers were in, a look later partially adopted by the punks. The most coveted records were US imports – Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye were pretty cool but I remember cult acts such as The Blackbyrds, Major Lance, Banbarra (Shack Up!), Johnny Guitar Watson being popular; Northern Soul was disdained. Mecca was the California Ballroom in Dunstable, about 40 miles away, coaches went there every Saturday. Being a bit too young I wasn’t really part of that scene but appreciated it from a distance.
For easy reference:
Robert Elms… anything associated with him has to be shite.
This is not true, however it would be difficult not to come to that conclusion after reading any of his articles.
Great drilling in down into the details, Alan. I’d forgotten to mention ‘jellies’ & mohairs & the fact that there was a peculiar moment when they seemed to be adopted by both the Soul crowd & the very early punks ( pretty sure they weren’t referred to by that name then) – I’d guess late ‘75 to very early ‘76. I grew up in the same road as Siouxie Sioux (who went to infant school with my big sis) so happened to see some colourful characters there, some of whom later became famous- & that ‘Roxy’ look was definitely their template- but the first ‘punk’ I ever saw was in Villiers St, Charing Cross which was the home of the Global Village market & the nightclub that later became the legendary Heaven – & that person was wearing jellies, PVC drainpipes & a mohair & had probably come from there. The look at that point was probably indistinguishable from a Soul Boy.
It was definitely not a ‘rock’ look in any sense at all, definitely ‘club’ orientated.
Great citing of The Blackbyrds, I knew a couple of older guys who swore by them.
This was a big tune:
That is a monster!
It’s ALL about the groove & properly fabulous.
There is actually a War live in Concert DVD filmed in Dunstable! I never knew it was a Mecca for soul boys until now, so it always seemed bizarre to me.
Blimey, talk about Slipping Into Darkness
There was this documentary in 1980 about the jazz funk scene. I thought these people were incredibly uncool, but lots of the music was great.
That’s brilliant – thanks.
And it’s also reminded me that I’ve got Froggy’s autograph on a Streetsounds compilation!
Do you remember if Froggy ever did Saturday morning children’s TV?
Not that I recall.
Yer man around the 16 minute mark is very uncool. Yet at the same time possibly freezing.
In my part of Essex, Maze were absolutely 100% the key band on the soul patrol scene – every other XR3i round our way had a Maze sticker on the back window.
I was only a tourist at best – the closest I got to being part of the scene was buying a copy of Blues and Soul and a Keni Burke album from JiFS (Jazz, Funk and Soul) record shop in Chadwell Heath. But my lifelong fear of dancing in public ultimately sent me scurrying back to New Order et al.
The earlier incarnation of the XR3i ‘s that transported the Soul Patrols & Funkateers were the Soul Boy’s ‘first motor’ – these were nearly always Cortina 1600E’s ( gold was the most sought after colour) which were always tricked out with furry dice & the obligatory green sun strip – the one down my road read ‘This is a family car, powered by Jazz, Funk & Soul’.
I’d love one, & I don’t even have a car!
XR3i’s were brilliant and I still fancy one too, although I did end up with a very unreliable and impractical Capri for a while, which I absolutely loved.
Seeing Barney on TotP would be enough to put anybody off dancing in public for life.
Romo.
A term coined by the Melody Maker to describe Mozzer’s pals Raymonde and, erm…
Perfect example.
I’ve kept that copy of MM because it’s so hilarious. Simon Price’s opening manifesto never fails to give me a chuckle.
please scan or OCR it for our edification. It sounds a treat.
actually, a google reveals plenty on this. How we missed a lot of fun…
http://newwavecomplex.com/index.php/2-uncategorised/123-romo
Having just spent a couple of hours reading about Romo, I now feel a lot more sympathetic to townies of the Paul Calf-type catcalling club ponces.
I am generally a gentle, peaceable soul who believes in live and let live. But:
“Romo is, correct, élitist. But we are talking about a particularly democratic form of élitisim. Anyone can reinvent themselves. We can’t help it if most are too dull to try.”
“Romo is always believing you are gold.”
“Romo is tearing open the map of Europa, our frontierless homeland, and gazing with romantic fascination at the place names: Valencia, Sorrento, Praha, Hammerfest, Zurich, Sarajevo, Arkhangelsk, London.”
“Romo is the word, and shall be. Like ‘dada’: two simple syllables. Ro-mo. Romantic, Modernist.”
“Romo is la nouvelle belle époque. Romo is hurtling into this fin of the siécle to fin all siecles with but one imperative: dance, for tomorrow, we die.”
I blame Robert Elms and Paul Morley. This sort of thing makes me want to play The Cult. LOUD.
Makes me want to play Technotronic.
Actually, most things do.
No matter what the beat is
At my age, Get Up (Before the Night Is Over) has a depressingly different meaning
I am definitely too dull to try reinventing myself.
Perhaps I could try reinventing myself as a middle-aged music nerd?
Dex Dexter, Orlando, Minty, Sexus, Plastic Fantastic … Orlando used to hang around with the girls from Kenickie a lot … it was all made possible by Simon Price
A review of the ill-fated Romo tour that year (by a rival publication that, let’s say, didn’t have a hat in their ring) remarked that the show, far away from their comfort zones, was populated by a few puzzled locals hanging around at the back and an enthusiastic bunch of about 20 dandies down the front. As the evening wore on it transpired they were the other bands.
A very niche sub scene was Jazz Dance, originally a variant of the Soul Scene. Prominent in clubs like The Wag and Dingwalls during one of those periodic jazz ‘booms’ in the mid 80s. Dance troupes like IDJ used to specialise in impossibly intricate routines to tunes like Art Blakey’s ‘Night In Tunisia’.
Cracking piece!
I went to a few of those Sunday afternoon do’s at Dingwalls (IIRC) – I could never dance for sh*t, but really enjoyed watching the intimidatingly good dancers there, some of whom were probably in that film. I learned loads & ‘discovered’ Hank Mobley at that point. It was very cool (way cooler than me) & full of great people. Despite being championed by the likes of Elms, it wasn’t a poseur fest.
I was too old for clubbing in 1986 so never went to Dingwalls, but was very interested in that scene. I bought every issue of Straight No Chaser and still think the music is great.
Yes, I’ve still got quite a few issues of Straight No Chaser. The music was a great mix of straight ahead jazz, soul, funk, fusion and latin Here’s one of my playlists:
Nice list!
Seeing Lyn Collins, The JB’s et al prompted memories of the ‘Rare Groove’ phase, which I guess time wise overlapped a bit with the Jazz dance scene, & was quite popular all over, but particularly at the WAG & in the West End.
I supposed enthusiasm for funky people probably peaked around the end of the 80s & was such that it was worth getting bands back together.
I saw a variation of James Brown’s Funky People at the Town & County Club- Bobby Byrd, Lyn Collins, Maceo, Fred Wesley & Pee Wee Ellis IIRC, it was heaven & remains one of greatest gigs I’ve ever attended – infinitely more satisfying than JB himself, who had definitely peaked before I saw him.
I think there was a lot of crossover between jazz dance and rare groove. I don’t remember anyone into jazz dance who didn’t like at least some funk. I think the above list plus the Chris Sullivan Presents The Wag CD box set are great examples of the broad range of taste on that scene.
IIRC the JBs gig you mention is discussed on the Ace Records podcast with Norman Jay.
Snowboy’s book on the scene is pretty good, but I like the lists best.
https://www.snowboy.info/product-page/from-jazz-funk-fusion-to-acid-jazz-the-history
That is brilliant & I had no idea that Norman Jay & co financed getting the gigs off the ground by doing a naughty bootleg of ‘I Believe In Miracles’ & ‘Cross The Tracks’!
I shall check out the rest, thanks for the heads up.
Thanks for the links. I’ve got that Snowboy book and the lists form the basis for another Jazz Dance playlist of mine, unfortunately not on Spotify.
I saw JB at Wembley Arena sometime in the 90s. He had definitely peaked but it was, by some distance, the loudest gig I’d ever attended. On the plus side, I did see peak JB at the Albert Hall in 1973. amazing.
I am properly jealous – that is indeed absolute peak JB!
I saw him at the Academy in about ‘84 – the audience made it feel like a 2nd coming – & there were moments that were transcendent, but the old jumpsuit had got pretty snug by then.
It’s astonishing that he was still getting on the good foot for many years after that & you got a good show for your bucks.
The thing I mainly remember from when I saw him in 1985 was that he never seemed to play any complete songs – everything was part of a sodding medley.
Anyone remember Grumb-bop, characterised by sitting in a car listening to techno? Took off briefly in a Tesco car park at Peterhead.
And was also the name of a hit record by Hanson.
….I think
have an up for that
Is that an offshoot of auto-orotorio, where you sing along with music while you’re driving?
(or passengering)
Deny the passenger who wants a sing-off
interesting thread, as I was also half-aware of an Essex soul scene when i was growing up which I was not part of.
I would emphasise “crusty” as a dedicated subculture: very conspicuous in Brighton in the early 90s, of which The Levellers were the main breakout rock act, although it also permeated dance and DJ culture (and even political activism) while being despised by the music media and intelligentsia. (I was also not part of this scene, I should add, but the omission of it from the archives rankles.)
I was on London Rd in Brighton last week and when I parked in the road behind there was a trailer that must have belonged to The Levellers as it was painted with the band name and their faces.
Well if they get pulled over it’s their own fault.
Levellers HQ is Brighton. And, as far as what they look like? How many of them could you identify in a crowd at the Convoy Cabaret? Well, there’s the one in a bonnet, who sings, the one with a mass of dreads uncurling from an otherwise very male pattern baldness pate. That’s it. Oh, the fiddle player wears a top hat.
…..making it easier for a sniper to pick him off, which is awfully sporting.
Step carefully chaps.
One wrong turn and we could find ourselves straying into the ancient and forbidden kingdom of BOOODOWWW
How about Lion Rock? Which was Cud, and no one else at all, IIRC.
Lionrock were ace. Big beat with added MC Buzz B. I suspect we’re not talking about the same thing.
Something to do with lions. Lion pop? It was a Stuart Maconie thing.
It was Andrew Collins, it would seem.
From Cider with Roadies…
Lion pop still sounds a sort of mysterious cheap cherryade you can only get in a Happy Shopper.
My favourite Lion Pop acts were The Panda Colas, Raspberryade, Cresta and Iron Brew.
When I moved to London in 1980 there was a group of art students trying to start a movement called the Grey Organisation, as a reaction against Thatcherite Consumerism. I think it was just four blokes in a Soho pub https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Organisation
What happened to Charter 88?
Did they merge with Rocket 88?
Blimey – the Grey Organisation, or two of them at least, ending up designing the cover to 3 Feet High and Rising!