Hi everyone, have already tweeted this, put it on Facebook and even put it on my ‘Hot retro Word magazine action’ thread…but some people have suggested a separate thread for it, so here goes.
David was very honest about his time with Word magazine and it seems to have been the best of times and the worst of times for him. In the interview we discuss the genesis and end of the magazine, the podcasts, the Massive, his ‘1971’ book and a few other things beside.
https://wholehoggblog.wordpress.com/2016/11/05/word-interview-5/
Really interesting interview – thanks.
Great stuff, Gavin.
Thanks for posting that!
It reminds me that there is still (in my head at least) a Word magazine-shaped hole in the marketplace. I understand, however, that reality has a different opinion.
Excellent.
It was a fab magazine, and I am glad it didn’t close earlier. But i think it made a financial mistake with producing a physical CD which was generally “good in parts”. As DH observed, it was the wrong time,given the shift to silicon. I still like paper and read on a train or plane, but typically i’m now one of the few who is not using a device.
hurrrr
@vincent
You and me both pal. I’ve still got magazines from 2 or 3 years ago that I will eventually get round to reading. Probably wouldn’t bother on a device.
I’m sure in a few years time I’ll be like all the rest but for now I like a proper product.
When an IPad equivalent is A4 and roll-upable (it’ll come), I will be likewise assimilated. But for now, give me a book, papers, mags, and printouts.
The thing with magazine cover CDs, in those days at any rate, is that a certain proportion of punters wouldn’t even consider a mag if it didn’t have a CD.
Music on CDs was still a very viable thing for most of the magazine’s life span. When Word started out, CD albums were still relatively expensive and magazine coverdiscs were an inexpensive way to hear things that weren’t getting played on mainstream radio and were maybe worth further investigation.
I find it amazing that Bauer Media’s focus groups (or whatever) keep thinking that ugly, bulky jewel cases are appropriate for Mojo covermounts. I think any other title that offers covermounts does so in a much more utilitarian, sensible thin sleeve.
Nice work, WH. Great restraint in not asking the “CW Stoneking- WTF?” question..
Excellent stuff Gavin, and really interesting to hear his take on it – as a fellow Yorkshireman I know he’s not one for sentimentality and it sounds like we were all having a ball but at their (great) expense so it couldn’t go on.
I’m still puzzled by the fact that while he seems to say there is no future in print magazines there are all these niche magazines still going like Wire and new titles that have crossed over from online into print like Louder Than War and Electronic Sound which I wrote about recently – perhaps ‘niche’ is doing Ok but a magazine like Word which tried to cover all bases can’t work?
Yes my thought was he’s an unsentimental bastard, fair enough, his company had the right name didn’t it?
Good job Gavin. Great to hear Dave with his business head on.
Here’s me thinking Word was the best magazine of its kind and yet it struggled from the start according to Dave.
More than Mojo and certainly more than Uncut (both of which read like the Young Persons Guide To 60s Music these days), Word was a mature, intelligent, well-written mag and I’d still be buying it today had it not folded.
Yes -as someone said, most detailed account of what went down, I’ve read so far.
I do miss the mag still .
I miss it too. I found some old back issues in my sons room today. There was a lot to get your teeth into.
Hats off to you, Gavin, for this. A piece that should be essential reading for anyone interested in the modern media landscape.
My mental image of Hepworth has always been as something of a retro-curmudgeon. This interview has increased my respect for him enormously: the plain-talking Yorkshireman who could see that the writing was on the wall for the magazine.
The mag lasted 9 years. How long has the Word/AW community existed now?
D’ya know, I think it’s smarter than the average bear-ness was it’s downfall, possibly with it’s cover all bases, lengthily, at the expense of variety. So you would get 5 pagers on the obscure and arcane, great if that was your obscure and arcane, less if not. Clearly it was catnip for me at the start, but seemed to get inexorably less essential and less read. I saw it as the platform for the blog in the end, rather than the other way round. It’s true, I can read all of what I want to in Boho and Unshod often in less than 30 minutes as well, but they cover wider bases by at least reviewing large swathes of output. Word’s insistence of few is more, which included the number of offered opinions, backfired. I knew what the main 3 liked (and didn’t they like to tell us) so felt more bias than seems, probably, to be the case with a wider number of writers. And Heppo bemoans the dearth of advertising, failing to see that fewer reviews = fewer adverts. Rock’n’Reel (or R2R) is chocka with adverts, OK for stuff so out the mainstream as to surprise, but they also review everything and more sent their way. It isn’t often well-written, but has oodles of enthusiasm.And isn’t all that niche, even, certainly way more inclusive than FROOTS or Songlines. (Who was actually sending stuff to Word for review in the end? Old mates in the industry?)
interesting observations Retro – can you expand on that last sentence in the brackets?
I think you underestimate the decline in advertising revenue, but you do have a point.
I buy Mojo and Uncut, even if the cover has no great appeal, because they do offer an impressively broad review section and definitely give some much needed limelight to smaller more obscure releases. I am probably not going to be interested in more than 10% of it all, but that does not matter. If I discover 2 or 3 new albums that I really like, it was worth the money. “Oodles of enthusiasm” goes a long way!
And there is usually at least one or two articles that I enjoy. The Shirley Collins interview in a recent Uncut provided a very useful, informative overview of her career.
I meant why would any record send Word records for free, or streams, given the diminishing opinion base demonstrated, and so proudly. “We don’t review much, and we don’t give ratings” Pit that against Mojo **** Uncut ***** Word “Unrated” and you get my drift. Admirable but ultimately self-defeating.
I agree with your comments Retro. We can look back with rose tinted spectacles but the magazine failed for exactly the reasons you said – not enough reviews so not enough support from the industry. Its okay saying we live in a digital age where magazines are not read. That is clearly not the case – you only have to look at new titles coming out every year and the continued success of Mojo for example.
I liked the magazine very much in its early days and less so towards the end and agree that the blog became more important to me than the magazine. I will say however they introduced me to the IPOD with their randomiser and their tribute to Jackie Leven was the best obituary I have ever read about an artist.
One of the reasons R2 and Froots may “review everything and more sent their way” is because they don’t pay at least some of their reviewers. I’ve had reviews published in both those mags and not been paid for them.
Bummer! I suspect you did not write for them again, JC.
It must be so difficult for those who want to earn a living by writing these days. There are so many sites (Trip Advisor, Amazon etc) where people produce very comprehensive, well written reviews for free. It is easily done. I wrote one piece for Trip Advisor about something I wanted to give some attention to. They keep suggesting I write more. Then I get a gold star or something!
Why on earth should I add to the value of their product? It’s a business not a non-profit community like the AW.
Yes, exactly. Or they ask for a review and then don’t use it.
I’m talking about the pre-internet days when magazines were king, however. Not being paid was an occupational hazard in those days.
For example in the 90s there was an attempt to launch an Australian version of Record Collector (no connection to the UK mag).. They went under owing me $4,000 and I’ve been stiffed for many smaller amounts by other mags.
This site is one of those where produce very comprehensive, well written reviews for free. They even go to the record companies to beg for product to review. It’s a shame when there are still people trying to put a value on their time and skill that someone will do it for nothing.
There is a certain truth in what you say, Chiz. But the horse has bolted: we live in the YouTube era where most young people expect everything to be free.
And anyway, often bloggers here write about stuff that is not so well known or does not have an enormous advertising budget. Or just because they are enthusiastic about an artist/book/film.
Is it better to write a review here than on Amazon?
I always feel very grateful when those who do make their living by writing contribute here for free. We are lucky to have them.
I enjoy the reviews written here far more than in magazines or on Amazon. The Amazon reviews are weird, a mixture of besotted fans, paid cheerleaders and people with very peculiar thought processes.
I wish you’d write some reviews, KFD. I reckon they’d be entertaining.
Was it Kate Mossman who wrote a piece about the ethics of writers working for free? Can’t remember if it was in Word, or somewhere else, but I definitely remember it.
To expand on JC’s point, as far as I’m aware R2 and Shindig! don’t pay for content (reviews, features) and it seems that enough non-pro writers have enough enthusiasm to see their stuff in print to negate that. FRoots/Folk Roots never used to pay for reviews but did pay for features (I assume that’s still the case; but I’d be surprised if one or two of their key reviewers didn’t get something). Its Irish equivalent ‘Irish Music’ don’t pay for reviews but I believe some regulars are paid something for features.
My review of Gretchen Peters at Bush Hall was in one of the last issues. I was certainly not a old friend in the industry.
How much did you get paid?
It was published on the Blog and then assimilated into the magazine, so all I had was the pride of seeing it in two places and a guy who I was acquainted with at work, but didn’t contribute to the blog, congratulating me on a nice review.
Great interview. FWIW, I felt that the mag had run its course with fewer contributors and less diverse content. By the time of the grotesque covers, it was no longer essential reading although I was still sorry to see it fold (I’d just renewed my subscription so I hadn’t given up on it). As anyone who has had a failing business will know, the sadness of its closure is tempered with a sense of relief at not having to keep plugging holes in a leaky boat. The sentiment we still feel for the mag is only possible because we didn’t have the stress of producing it and trying to make the books balance.
Me too, subscribed/bought it to the end but it became less and less essential as it tried to be more broad, with interviews with people like Chris Evans, comedians and reality TV people like Jade Goody. I was sad to seek to but sadder to see the end of the Blog TBH.
By the time it folded I already viewed my magazine subscription as a way of funding the parts I really liked, i.e. the blog and the podcasts.
Great interview, though. The mention of CW Stoneking above reminded me of his enthusiasm for the Silver Seas – I never really “got” them.
I must post the email I received from CW himself, after the furore on the blog.
Exactly my view too.
What’s the fuss about CW Stoneking? I remember when he popped up and was on the podcast, but I don’t remember any controversy. He’s quite good, is he not?
CW claimed to have been raised, Romulus & Remus style, in an Aborigine outback community and affected a quite ridiculous quasi Aborigine/American accent.
Musically he was so-so, but the artifice he projected was gossamer thin, at least in Australia.
How disappointing…I prefer my troubadors to be authentic, like Seasick Steve.
Or Bobby “Boxcar” Dylan
What makes you think the accent is not authentic? Apart from the odd southern U.S. Twang, that is the exact broad, nasal accent of far western Qld and the Northern Territory mixed with inflections from Aboriginal communities. His accent is almost indistinguishable from friends and colleagues I’ve had, to the point where, when I first heard him, I had to immediately check out a photo to make sure it wasn’t a particular friend moonlighting. If his accent is fake, it’ s an incredible job.
Check out the Premier Guitar rig rundown for him, and read the comments about how he’s an Australian affecting a Southern U.S. drawl. The guy can’t win.
I’ m not a big fan, but the guy has chops. How is what he’s doing any less ‘authentic’ than folkie or blues purists?
I got the impression CW was a white man trying to identify as black. I’ve lived here 30 years and have never heard an accent like that outside the indigenous community.
As I recall Fraser Lewry was a fan and that is how he ended up being on the podcast.
His father was an American and at an early age CW lived in remote aboriginal communities where he either took on or learned the patois.
He tried to make a secret of his recent past building some mystique a la circus travelling Bobby Dylan but people recognized him as having played in various punk bands in Sydney.
I saw him early on and really enjoyed the show. Last time was at Womadelaide where he was showcasing Electric Booglaoo and to be honest, the schtick had worn thin on me by then.
Shane Pacey, formerly of this parish and main man in excellent Sydney blues band the Bondi Cigars, was scathing of him. He said he had played on many fixtures with CW and regarded him as a fraud. Not really sure what he meant, it was a while back, as surely we all know it is an act.
Fraser defended CW by pointing out, quite rightly, that artifice in rock is widespread.
Whether it’s early Bob trying to sound like a hillbilly with his carnival stories, or middle-class Jagger speaking in an unconvincing cockney accent, almost everyone is trying to be someone else.
CW’s shtick may travel well in Europe and the USA, but I didn’t find it convincing in Australia.
I have spent time around Aboriginal communities (I spent the first few years of my life on one) and that is exactly what he would sound like. My dad still occasionally drops into this accent (subconsciously) depending on the company he is with.
For a non Brit there was far too much about stuff on British TV and radio at the end.
As a Brit I agree.
As a Welshman I agree too. No where near enough column inches given over to Max Boyce or Sir Harold of Seacombe. Thin end of the wedge etc.
Yes absolutely, you kind of get used to that though in this part of the world
Hepworth told me once that the problem wasn’t that the public didn’t want to buy magazines, it was the artists who didn’t need them any more. With the rise of Twitter and other direct routes to market, they had no need to do individual interviews or photoshoots. So to get big names on the cover you ended up with those illustrations, and endless retrospectives and ‘Top 100’ lists.
I think I realised the game was up when they started doing hybrid covers like Springsteen and Lily Allen or Keith and Gaga, and had suspicious enthusiasms for odd acts with money to spend, like Stoneking. It alienated the core readership without attracting new readers.
Stoneking…money to spend ?He lives in rural Victoria. He’s a novelty act. He aint no mainstream act paying for exposure.
I think I must have contributed to the death of the magazine because I hardly ever bought it, but looked forward the podcast and always like the blog. So I was a bit of a freeloader.
Having said that, I used to regularly buy at least one music/film magazine a month. Then I gradually stopped, and I don’t know why. Probably just due to there being more content available online now for browsing and reading.
The Word podcast was uniformly terrific. I still go back to old episodes. I would gladly have paid £2-£3 per episode.
I had no idea Shindig! Is still around – looks great, and the idea of books/annuals is good too. The Space Rock one looks a must have.
http://www.silverbackpublishing.rocks/shop/
It’s gone monthly recently (previously6-weekly or something like that). Whatever their business model is, it seems to be working.
Knowing your market and sticking to it I suspect. Word tried to be too eclectic, which is admirable but asking for trouble with advertisers.
Like Record Collector before it, Shindig has gone for the insanely detailed 60s market that Mojo and Uncut are afraid to fully commit to.
Your man/woman in the street may claim to get a nostalgic hot flush at the very mention of Syd Barrett, Nick Drake and the Byrds, but talk to them about original record labels or vintage 50s/60s guitars and they’ll look at you like a cow looks at an oncoming train.
Shindig has that corner of the market sewn up.
I remember the fuss when they had a go at a major advertising feature, think it was phones or some such, obviously an attempt to get some money in. The righteous condemnation of that piece must have been like a boot in the gonads. I used to buy it because of the blog and felt in some way it may help keep the whole thing going. Great interview by the way, how the fuck do some of the magazines you see on the shelves in Tesco keep going on guitars, trains and other niche markets?
Wasn’t it Bentley or something?
The thing with niche magazines is that the fixed costs of offices, admin, accounts, support, IT etc are spread across a range of titles, many of which still have thriving classified sections.
I worked for EMAP once and always remember my shock on finding that the mighty Kerrang, a staple of my early teens, was literally 3 back to back desks with the music turned down fairly low, so as not to disturb the gardening magazine at the next set of desks.
What!
I always assumed Kerrang! was based in some kind of castle.
That is so amusing, Bartleby.
I have completely bought into the self mythologising of the NME and their ilk about how a music mag’s office is the coolest place on earthNow I’m just waiting to have that illusion shattered too as you tell that they shared office space with Buns and Baking mag or Philately Monthly.
Yeah but they were nice buns.
Oho!
Yes, sad to say, the Kerrang staff were tame, in house corporate muthas, sticking it to the man in their dreams while labelling their minestrone soup and mugs in the shared kitchen area. Never meet your heroes!
In the early 70s I had to drop off advertising copy every week to the NME offices in Long Acre, Covent Garden. It was a fantastic old building place with famous scribes and the occasional rock star milling around everywhere. You could always get a cup of tea there and even blag the odd free record.
Then in 1976 the NME was moved to open plan offices on the 25th floor of King’s Reach Tower on the embankment and everything changed. The fun was suddenly gone.
I believe the atmosphere was so bad that within a year or so the editorial department opened up new offices in Carnaby Street, leaving the ad department at King’s Reach.
The Long Acre building is an H&M store now.
The Bentley Test Drive was the point when you knew they were doing whatever advertising was offered to get funding through the door. And fair play to them for at least trying.
The article did get a pasting on the blog, but the author did at least try and spin it for the readership by talking about the greatness of the CD player
Sometimes, I lie awake at night wondering how many Bentleys were shifted because of that article.
Mornington Crescent? I left when they moved there. It was like a battery farm for journalists. My old team found themselves next to Plastics and Rubber Weekly.
That was Greater London House, wasn’t it? I had a few freelance stints in there. Amazing old building but horrible to work in if you weren’t near a window.
Kerrang were at Mappin House, I think, with Select, Smash Hits, Big, Mojo et al.
Really enjoyable and thought-provoking interview. Nice one.
Haven’t we got the totally digital version of the magazine here? We’ve got the podcasts, and this “blog” is much more than it ever used to be in the days when it was an appendage so to speak to the magazine. We have reviews, true life stories, wit and humour and the occasional disagreement (ahem). And we don’t have to wait for it every month, it’s continuous.
Don’t underestimate the value of an editor. (Says an ex-editor.)
Editors are like drummers. They keep everyone moving.
Sorry to butt in but can someone tell me how to post a blog here on an iPhone? I read the FAQ but I ain’t seein’ a secret window anywhere.
just log into the blog via the internet browser on your phone- assuming you are using a smart phone and then frustrate the fuck out of yourself with auto correct and tiny fonts.
Dude, I gave up and hopped on to the iMac. I’m back on the phone now tho.
Very interesting piece. FWIW I tend to think that it was probably the right time to stop, as the content was getting rather tired (I seem to recall that one of the last issues I picked up had a dull article about what made a successful pop act and far too many lists). And those caricature front covers were horrible.
But when the mag was good, it was great. Written by people passionate about their subjects – and some of the prose was exquisite. I recall a Mark Ellen article about Rufus Wainwright on tour. His descriptions of theCanadian winter, the theatres that Wainwright played in and the singer’s voice were expressed with such clarity. I also used to like Jim White’s film reviews (his take on Bill Murray being lugubriously funny in The Life Aquatic…springs to mind.)
Just such a shame that the market was no longer there (if it ever really was).
I read the interview. Very interesting. It seems odd that they kept at it for five or so years considering it apparently wasn’t reached expected targets from day one, and was clearly never going to.
I haven’t bought a music magazine since circa the closing of Word when my Uncut subscription lapsed. I’ve never been tempted to dip back in. I think I looked at Q once in a newsagents and I couldn’t fathom why I’d be expected to pay £4 for such boring, meagre content.
I only buy one magazine now. Stodgy, pretentious Sights and Sounds (£4.50). I only get it about once every other month if there’s enough overall interesting looking content. It can take about a week to read a copy as there’s so much in it. The writing is good and substantial enough that I will read every review (that’s about 50 films) and most of the articles.
My brother buys SFX (£5) every month but I don’t know why as it’s pretty feeble. It takes half an hour to read the interesting pages, and another half hour to read the less interesting pages, and then you’re done. My dad used to buy several mags but now only buys one SFX rival mag who’s bland title escapes me. Its reviews aren’t as good as SFX but I feel there is better overall content in it.
One of the most interesting things in a very interesting interview was when David H hinted that his next book may be a development of the fascinating blog piece he wrote a couple of years ago “Why The Beatles Are Underrated”. It was a great piece of writing in every way, not least because it drove the Fabs haters wild.
It would be really interesting to see it developed into a book.
http://www.davidhepworth.com/html/david_hepworth_feature.htm
Thank you, very interesting piece. Good to see something that feels so direct & honest.