David Byrne has issued an apology for not having any women play on his new album – ‘American Utopia’
Does anyone else feel uneasy about that?
I see myself as someone who believes in equality for all [that’s a simplified version what I believe, in order to keep this post short]
But I wonder can I actually say that when I read about this issue and don’t fully support the ‘solution’?
I welcome your views, partly as I am interested in what a mainly white & male blog has to say about a problem that we seem to be right in the middle of [albeit not as much as David Byrne is right now] and also, of course, because it’s not just white males who post here, but also because I believe that this place isn’t just an echo chamber and that I might learn something by asking the question.
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Baron Harkonnen says
Why should DB need to apologise?
P.C. gone mad. Again.
SteveT says
Agree with the Baron.
Complete crap.
The Beatles and Stones didn’t need women and arguably when they did get involved their music went right down the toilet. Saw Wings on tour and Linda was pretty much a waste of space.
The Bangles on the other hand got on perfectly well without any blokes ruining their sound.
Mike_H says
I presume that, having been criticised, he felt a need to so he did. It is mildly surprising these days that with 25 musical collaborators, none at all were female, though I don’t image for a minute that he deliberately excluded any female input.
Talented female musicians do still get overlooked and even dismissed by the more moronic elements, but things aren’t as bad as they used to be, although it seems there’s a bit of tokenism coming into play too. Blokes in the band are allowed to be as ugly and misshapen as they like but a female in your band has to be slim and pretty.
That phrase “PC Gone Mad” makes me grit my teeth, though.
Baron Harkonnen says
It makes me grit my teeth also Mike, and having to use it even more so.
David Byrne is a good guy who would not have ignored female musicians intentionally, anybody with any sense will know that. Therefore no bloody need to apologise.
It is obvious someone found the need to badger him about this.
SteveT says
His last tour was with St.Vincent.
Last time I looked she was distinctly female.
Leicester Bangs says
Not sure why the subhead wording ‘decision to exclude’ has been allowed to stay, since it seems fairly obvious that Byrne is apologising for an oversight, not a matter (of what would surely be unlawful) policy.
Barry Blue says
In The Guardian’s current version of the world, Byrne had a big meeting with the patriarchy and decided to exclude female musicians.
Moose the Mooche says
Has he apologised to Tina Weymouth?
Steve Walsh says
When I saw the headline, I wondered whether he had finally apologised for wearing a tutu and generally being pretentious on his 2009 tour. Now that would be something worth apologising for.
That tour traumatised a lot of people and gave rise to a lot of correspondence in Word Magazine if I recall correctly.
Martin Hairnet says
Unless Byrne sees himself as some sort of figurehead for the music industry – someone who should set an example – what, exactly, is this apology about? It all seems rather vague and spineless, and I don’t see why it needed to be made.
He looks great though, doesn’t he, and his quiff is starting to resemble The Great Wave of Kanagawa.
Black Type says
Crosseyed And Spineless?
Martin Hairnet says
Wide eyed and legless?
Lando Cakes says
I think Byrne puts it very well:
“I am happy that we live in a time that this conversation is happening. It’s hard to realise that no matter how much effort you spend nudging the world in what you hope is the right direction, sometimes you are part of the problem. I never thought of myself as being ‘one of those guys’, but I guess to some extent I am.”
Meanwhile, scientists continue to puzzle over the lack of female contributors to The Afterword.
Martin Hairnet says
But can you articulate in what way Byrne is “part of the problem”, and what he should have done differently so as not to be part of the problem. If only three or four of his 25 collaborators had been women, would he still be part of the problem?
Mike_H says
Presumably an artist of his status gets to choose who plays on his recording sessions. There are talented females in the pool of people he can choose from but he seemingly overlooked them, for whatever reason. If female musicians he thought of proved unavailable, or available ones weren’t suitable for particular qualities he wanted in the recordings, he’d have no reason to apologise.
He’s not the kind of person I would expect to kowtow to criticism without reason, so the fact that he has decided to apologise suggests he thinks himself at fault in the matter.
The proportion of top-flight female musicians is significantly smaller than that of males, so insisting on 50/50 male and female participants on a project would be making a deliberate statement. Which might well not be the intended aim.
Mavis Diles says
A pedant writes – the balance of sexes in classical music, I think, is not an issue. It’s only really pop music (in all forms) where sexism is rife, and honestly macho posturing is a huge part of the mythology. Best of luck changing that, even though it needs to be done. It starts with the shitty lyrics of most pop music I think.
Mike_H says
It wouldn’t surprise me at all if female musicians outnumbered males these days. There certainly seem to be a lot.
A recent short concert by the London-based Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment Experience Ensemble which I saw was about 2/3 female. These are young music students selected for their excellence and given a short intensive course in live performance.
Most of them are non-British, which raises another question in light of Brexit and attendant matters.
Mavis Diles says
You could be right. That is primarily the world of music that I am the most involved with, and there could be a balance towards female overall. Age of Enlightenment Experience Ensemble sounds interesting actually… and the remarks about Brexit are also a good (and worrying) point. We might see a return to the dark days of NWOBHM once all the proper musicians have been deported.
Arthur Cowslip says
YEEES!!! Can’t wait!
ernietothecentreoftheearth says
I suspect that the scientists worked that one out some time ago.
Ahh_Bisto says
Looking at his statement he’s not offering an apology but an acceptance that there is a problem concerning a lack of female representation in his industry and then voicing his regret that he is contributing to that problem with his men only collaborative list.
Martin Hairnet says
But artists and groups are not democracies, and they make biased choices all the time, often for artistic/personal reasons. Are we to police artistic collaborations? Seems unworkable.
Ahh_Bisto says
Sure, and Byrne is recognising that he makes biased choices in his statement. From the way it’s written he’s probably taken a step back and looked at his choices again from the perspective of those who have criticised him for the lack of female collaborators in his list and offered a personal take on the issue. But he’s not apologising for his choices simply accepting his failings in the context of the criticism levelled at him.
It’s the Guardian headline that’s put “David Byrne Apologies…” front and centre. Their piece also uses the term “backlash” in the second paragraph. The story was reported 17 hours ago by the NME and 4 hours ago by The Guardian. It turns out the backlash is on Twitter so it’s easy pickings for online desk jockeys mistaking what is essentially gossip as news. Unsurprisingly it’s click-bait hyper-ventilating content fodder masquerading as journalism by skewering the discussion Byrne is participating in with his statement. The unsolicited emotive angle of unknown Twitter users is the preferred angle to the actual substantive content of Byrne’s statement which is nuanced, inclusive and personal.
Job done by Guardian = public display of hackles raised. Tick
Job done by Byrne = public display of self-awareness raised. Tick
Lemonhope says
Good point, well made – you’re quite right, he hasn’t apologised.
Moose the Mooche says
The Graun is as much a practitioner of cynical clickbait as the Mail.
SteveT says
Not sure there is a problem – there is a new female singer songwriter being touted every week.
It appears to me there are more women out there than men at the moment – okay not so much in the group format but definitely as solo artists.
Mike_H says
Particularly in the Americana-like niche. Note that pretty much all of those female solo artists are slim and pretty. It’s the industry’s current fad (including the commentators, DJs etc. who drive it) and they are all disposable if the records don’t sell.
Females in bands are generally just the token bassist, string player or keyboardist. Almost never lead guitarist and rarely the main vocalist. Often in a romantic liason with a male band member and if the romance ends but the band continues, it’s the girl who’s expected to leave.
Ahh_Bisto says
Macca
John Paul Jones
Bernard Edwards
The Ox
James Jamerson
Plonk
Jack Bruce
Geddy Lee
Lemmy
Bootsy Collins
Just a few “token” male bassists.
Sewer Robot says
“Lemmy, we need to talk. It was great in the beginning. I still remember the first night I took you to a cheap motel – no pajamas, tongues and everything! – I woke up drunk with a really itchy face and and an even itchier crotch soon after.
But the magic’s gone – I need to see other bassists. It’s time for you to leave…”
*WALLOP*
Mike_H says
Let’s face it, all rock and pop bassists, unless they are the singer as well, are token inasmuch that they are subservient to the egos of the singers and guitarists.
‘Ver Maiden being the exception that proves the rule.
Moose the Mooche says
What about the Level 42s?
Ahh_Bisto says
Yeah but in the token stakes it doesn’t apply as Mark sang as well along with keyboardist (so he’s not token either). So does the guitarist win?
I once saw the keyboardist from the Level 42s at Covent Garden tube station.
Black Celebration says
(Mike Lind)up!
SteveT says
I can think of many female artists who do not fit into the slim and pretty category @Mike_H but it would be very ungallant of me to name them.
Mike_H says
Oh, so can I, but the preference of record company executives is still for the pretty ones.
Up until the late ’70s – early ’80s you’d be hard put to find any female in music who wasn’t stereotypically attractive.
Actually, there was something along those lines I noted yesterday evening while listening to an old Word podcast from 2011.
It was one of the ones from that year’s Latitude festival. Andrew Harrison and Stuart Maconie were chatting to Louise Wener about the rise and demise of Britpop.
Louise embarrassed the boys by reminding them how sexist the music papers and mags were in those days. She told of turning up for an interview at “Select”* (I think) in jeans, boots and leather jacket and being told to “loosen a couple of buttons” to look better for the accompanying photos. One or other of Maconie or Harrison was editor then and they hurriedly said they must have been on holiday at the time. A bit of laughter from all three and that particular matter was not pursued.
* Think it was “Select” but cannot be sure without listening through it again.
SteveT says
‘Up until the late 70’s?’
Let’s see – Janis Joplin, Nina Simone, Dusty Springfield, Aretha Franklin, Mama Cass, Mary Hopkin,Sandy Denny to name just a few would dispel this argument.
No doubt sexist attitudes existed and still exist but I think need to be put in perspective.
Diddley Farquar says
And you may find yourself with 25 male collaborators
You may find yourself without any female collaborators
You may ask yourself, well, how did I get here?
Colin H says
Very good! 😀
troutmaskreplicant says
ha!
duco01 says
A special Afterword Gold Award to Mr Farquar for that very amusing contribution!
Diddley Farquar says
🙂
Harold Holt says
Can we still say ‘have an up’ ?
Moose the Mooche says
Sexism doesn’t stain the furniture.
Oh dear….
dai says
I am boycotting this album in protest, but as I have only liked one of his post Heads albums (the first one), then that isn’t too controversial. Have loved many live shows though including the superb “Songs of Byrne and Eno” one, even found myself dancing at that one, an extremely rare occurrence!
Moose the Mooche says
Rei Momo or Uh Oh? Good choices both, even with their crap titles. Both very underrated.
dai says
Rei Momo for me. Was also a great live show.
Moose the Mooche says
*adopts Arthur Putey voice*
In point of fact, the Heads were technically still together until the official split in 1991 – although they hadn’t been in a room together since late 1987.
While I agree that RM is the superior album, Uh Oh is a tremendous record – and the DB album that sounds the most like Talking Heads. Some of it could be from the Speaking in Tongues era.
dai says
I didn”t know that (or had forgotten)
Alias says
I completely agree. I’m prepared to forgive him on the grounds that
a)TH were one of the best live bands ever,
b)DB is great live
c) I wouldn’t have noticed if he hadn’t said anything, and most important
d)he has given a lot of support to female artists over the years with his Luaka Bop label.
shells says
He may not be finished apologising as I wonder what the breakdown of the musicians is as regards
Sexual preference
Skin colour
religion
Any Gingers ??
Moose the Mooche says
…speaking as a Fanta Fadge, that’s the final straw.
fentonsteve says
Byrne’s last album was as a duo, the other half being A Wimmin. Which is pretty much bringing down the patriarchy, sisters. Although Wikipedia lists only 2 of 49 additional musicians as (having) female (names).
chiz says
It really is amazing how news works. Read the first two paras and you get a completely different story to the one that subsequently unfolds.”I regret not hiring and collaborating with women, it’s ridiculous, it’s not who I am” becomes ‘Byrne apologises for his decision to exclude women’.
Colin H says
I’m surprised David Byrne didn’t come here first. The Afterword is famous for its apology threads that rarely seem to be about anything.
Vulpes Vulpes says
I was going to contribute to this thread, but my wife’s laid up with Aussie flu and can’t be arsed to make her thoughts clear on the issue.
Mavis Diles says
Just an idle thought. I believe that the #TimesUp movement is much more significant than it initially seemed. I suspect that, having avoided Yewtree, a lot of rock musicians are having sleepless nights over past behaviours. They can see what’s coming.
Neela says
Though he did record and perform with St Vincent who’s very female and making good music in her own right. So that’s good.
The Good Doctor says
Agree this seems a click-baity non-story, and the Guardian reporting it in that way doesn’t help the cause of having some proper soul-searching about matters of gender. All it does is irk people who are still uncomfortable with that, I see the 1990s Daily Mail “PC Gone Mad” clause has already been invoked and we get nowhere toward dealing with the shit that has happened to women in the music industry (never mind all the other industries) , and how to make things better in the future.
The future is not with Mr Byrne, but fortunately even my very patchy and cursory knowledge of stuff that people under 25 listen to would suggest that there are far more female artists, band members, DJs, producers, gig promoters etc than ever and the young are shifting the balance for themselves.
I can’t help think some of you are terribly worried this is where we’re heading though:
chiz says
I can’t help thinking you must have read a completely different thread to the one I’m looking at
SteveT says
Yeah but that’s not factual @Dr Volume. My daughter is 19 and more than 90percent of the music she is listening to is by female singers.
Kid Dynamite says
Call me a cynical old goat, but I can’t help but notice that all this has raised the profile of Byrne’s new album enormously. And without a penny spent on marketing!
Baskerville Old Face says
The times they are a-changing and we may need to revisit some classic albums and songs to ensure that we are not upsetting anyone. Might we now expect a revised Kraftwerk album – ‘Trans-Gender Express’? David Bowie – ‘Wife On Mars’? Genesis – ‘Selling England By The Kilo’. There may be the beginnings of another thread here…
duco01 says
Tenpole Tudor: “The Swords of a Thousand Persons who do not wish to be defined in binary gender terms”
fentonsteve says
Tea now coming out of nostrils.
Not a good look at the best of times, especially not when I’m supposed to be working.
Mike_H says
“Trans Great Britain Express” for Kraftwerk now.
Assuming such blatantly foreign rubbish is even allowed in, after the referendum.
Moose the Mooche says
No, they’ll be renamed Power Station. Much better.
*sings Some Like It Hot in robot voice*
Leedsboy says
Can I add that the phrase pc gone made is really annoying?
I find PC gone made and health and safety gone mad are pretty reliable indicators of people who refuse to look at the actual nuances behind poorly written journalism.
chiz says
Or indeed journalism which deliberately sets out to take advantage of that refusal to read to the bottom of the page. Whoever nosed this story knows that the PC gone mad brigade would be huffing to themselves if there wasn’t an equal and opposite group desperate to tell the PGM’s they’re wrong. You bait the hook and wait for both fish to bite. Both groups miss the nuances equally.
Leedsboy says
I largely agree. I think this piece in the Guardian is extremely poor. I actually find the statement by DB to be interesting and enlightening. He is reviewing his decisions based on some people pointing out things he hadn’t realised. He is allowing his thoughts to be provoked – in a way that the Guardian piece doesn’t. I’m quite impressed. And he clearly doesn’t apologise.
I reckon his next album will be called Pankhurst or Weinstein A Go Go and he will rebalance his account at the bank of karma.
Moose the Mooche says
Weinstein A Go Go… top!
“You’re all corrupt… you’re all depraved!”
Moose the Mooche says
Sidebar… I just started whistling Einstein A Go-Go and Mrs Moose thought it was the theme from Acorn Antiques.
fentonsteve says
Me too. It is usually used by the same types who say “I’m not a racialist, but…”
An easy way to indicate that it is time to stop reading/listening.
retropath2 says
Yet see the cover of Melody Gardot’s live record, just out. Is she being ironic? But an unusual idea for nowadays, and one I doubt many will follow.
chiz says
There’s nothing in the fight for equality that prevents a woman from getting her bum out on her album cover if she wants to, as long as fizzy old men like us understand that it’s simply a not-very-metaphorical metaphor for baring oneself on stage. But then you have to wonder if she’d still do it if she had an arse like a burst sandbag.
Tiggerlion says
Is it actually her?
chiz says
I don’t know her well enough to say, to be honest…
Harold Holt says
You’re thinking a stunt arse has been employed ?
retropath2 says
I am not sure that is how Spare Rib might see it (nothing to stop etc), given the hoo-ha around Jayne Seymour saying her Playboy shoot is a vote for equality.
Given her usual stage lighting is dim to dark and she is normally in black from shades to foot, I don’t know that anyone knew she had a bottom.
However, uncertain whether I have a valid point of view, as my forthcoming cover shoot for the Oldie will show. Or not.
Moose the Mooche says
Wahey!!
Mike_H says
Well.
If a nine-woman combo can play “Fat-Bottomed Girls” for an encore on their International Women’s Day gig, I reckon showing her bum on her album cover is probably OK.
Leedsboy says
I’m reminded of that Morrissey photo of him and his band in the buff. And John & Yoko. Not sure that it’s that unusual. I suspect it depends on her reasons for using it.
Moose the Mooche says
I’m reminded of Malcolm McLaren’s words to Jordan or Sue Catwoman at an early Sex Pistols gig that he feared wasn’t yet wild enough to garner any press coverage: “Take yer top off, girl!”
Ahh_Bisto says
Apparently 25 men collaborated on the taking of that photograph.