Someone pointed out on Twitter this morning that “Jingle Bells” should more correctly be “Jingle, bells”. Similarly “God rest ye, merry gentlemen”. There must be plenty of others. Chuck Berry, for example, could have gone the pedant route with “Johnny, be good”.
Over to you.
Nine Below Zero had an album a while back called ‘Hat’s Off’, which pained me somewhat. I similarly wince at Humble Pie’s ‘Natural Born Bugie’ It makes m,e think of little helicopters, small parrots and Adam Faith.
The hat is off, surely. It might not be the instruction you assume.
Yes, I can understand that there is a context in which a singular hat may be off, but I think they intended the album (a homage to Chicago blues writers/acts) to be a general ‘hats off… to Muddy Waters, Willie Dixon, etc.’
If the cover image had just one person without a hat it could be construed as correct.
More than one hatless person on the cover and they have got it wrong.
On that note, it is worth noting that just a few days ago The Apostrophe Protection Society gave up, conceding the battle has been lost.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/01/laziness-has-won-apostrophe-society-admits-its-defeat
Thats bad new’s.
The crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe.
(F.Zappa, 1973)
Ugh! “Hat’s Off”! That’s truly horrible.
Context is everything.
“Hat’s off, belt is undone, shoes are unlaced”
Bloody nonsense. Jingle is the type of bell, announced by name ahead of the instruction to jingle, lest the cow bells started. God rest is a greeting for ye merry gentlemen to receive. God rest ye, ye merry gentlemen, in the longer form, wouldn’t scan, either.
I thought it was “God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen” It sort f makes sense to rest merry.
That works with the second line too. It’s an early draft of Don’t Worry Be Happy
No, it’s “God, (here’s ye) Rest (of) Ye (bloody) Merry Gentlemen, (ain’t they got a home to go to?)”
Nonsense. A “God rest” is similar to a “head rest” except it’s specifically designed for divine repose. “Ye Merry Gentlemen” is simply the brand name of a model that was particularly successful with the trendier indolent deities of the time. It’s basically an advertising jingle.
The question mark is generally missing in popular music.
Think of any song title that asks a question, and it is almost guaranteed the necessary punctuation mark will be absent.
If I said you had a beautiful body would you hold it against me.
What is this thing called, Love?
On the flip side, it’s an unwarranted question mark that frequently irks when people write about Marvin Gaye’s “What’s Going On”..
Is there ‘Life On Mars’…
LOL
Great fun can be had by placing the emphasis on a different word in that sentence.
Gyles Brandreth would love this thread. I need to get his book as I’m hopeless with apostrophes an commas. It’s called “Have You Eaten Grandma?” hours of comma placing fun with the title alone. ..
“Those things over there are my husbands.” E. Waugh.
Which, as we know, begat the band name Let’s Eat Grandma..
“Eats shoots and leaves” by Lynn Truss is the classic.
Whither the caesura?
It’s gone….
Wait! ^ There it is!
(For) God(‘s sake) , rest (the fuck up), ye merry gentlemen……….
I think that sentiment belongs over on the Security Risk thread.
Jeremy mentalmen?
Up!
I remember reading a review of Roger Daltrey’s autobiography, which is entitled ‘Thanks a lot Mr Kibblewhite’. Surely there’s a comma missing? I understand it in song titles, but a proofreader and publishing house gave that title a green light.
I think we can afford to cut the old gent some slack, can’t we? The ravens are still at the Tower of London as far as I know.
Actually…*puts pedantic publisher’s hat on, clears throat, cracks knuckles*…I’d say it depends on context and tone of voice. If it’s sarcastic, as in “Thanks a fucking bunch…,” I’d say you need the comma for rhythm. If it’s a little urchin unschooled in the ways of grammarians expressing gratitude for a gobstopper given to him by a kindly confectioner, I’d say no comma. Alternative scenario: proofreader and publisher couldn’t be bothered to argue with a stroppy and very expensive rock star. As ever, OOAA.
*fair warning
Should it also be Mr.
Glutton for punishment, eh? Here’s the rule: if the abbreviation includes the first letter and the last (Dr, Mr), no full stop is needed. I’ve no idea why this should be, but whoever defined The Times’s house style insisted it should be so, and a generation of poor saps like me follow the rule slavishly (one less thing to think about), and try and ensure others follow it too, God help us.
You should have a thread for this, @mikethep !
I would like your guidance on something. If there is a song title like “It Doesn’t Have to be Like That” – have I correctly applied the leading capitals to the words? I tend to leave smaller words as lower case, but I am thinking that there must be a rule?
I often wonder about that. It looks wrong to me without capitalising all the words
Completely unschooled in this area of English grammar, but shouldn’t the B of “be” be capitalised there as it’s a verb?
I don’t capitalise “the”, “to”, “from”, “in”, “of”, “by” when I remember, but it’s a thing I’ve picked up from seeing what others do rather than something I’ve been taught.
Glad you asked me that, @black-celebration… 😉
The rule is that prepositions don’t take a capital letter except at the beginning or end of a sentence (or title). So in your example it should be “It Doesn’t Have to Be Like That”, with everything else capitalised. But it would be “He Came To”. And yes, Be not be.
Conjunctions such as “and”, same. “War and Peace”.
Anybody with any interest in this sort of nitpicking should check out the Times Style Guide. It’s what I learned from in my first copy-editing job a thousand years ago, and I suspect it might have moved with the times (ha!) better than I have.
Thanks Mike! When the other Mike weighed in with his capital B, I realised my version was wrong but I didn’t know why. Now I do.
“Alright” by Supergrass.
Shouldn’t it be All Right?
Having said that, I did learn conversational French that made me sound like an idiot when i tried it out in real life France.
“Excuse me, would it be correct to say that the train station is near here?”
Ditto Elvis, with That’s Alright Mama.
However…if Supergrass or Elvis say that the song title is “Alright” – then that’s what it is.
You wouldn’t list “I am Kurious Oranj” as “I am Curious Orange”, would you?
“Jingle bells” is a description of bells that jingle. “Jingle, bells” is an instruction for the bells to jingle, so I think “Jingle Bells” is OK.
A much more obvious one to start with would be Come On Eileen. Gross!
You can either “help your Uncle Jack off a horse” or you can “help your uncle jack off a horse.”
Hands up who remembers Paul Jones as Uncle Jack?
(Cor, I wish I hadn’t said “hands up”…)
Howsabout an alternative comma positioning:
God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen
Which is correct. See @davidallengreen, or The Christmas episode of Cabin Pressure (Molokai)
Go dress, chew myrrh, regent lemon
Ain’t No Mountain High Enough. Sorry love, that means there is a mountain high enough to stop you responding to my call.
Me And My Shadow. Oh dear. What’s been done to you and your shadow?
Lay Lady Lay. What? An egg?
Why Does Love Got To Be So Sad. Absolutely. It probably became so sad simply because it does. I think.
That’s What Daddy’s Do. I know he’s only human but I do hope he only does it in a toilet.
The lay/lie thing is a lost cause.
“I’m hoping to get lied this weekend”
etc
Well if we’re going to be pedantic surely the eponymous Johnny is Mr Goode, with a middle name that might be Batholomew or Brian. The song is not an exhortation to behave himself.
I knew someone would spot my posted-in-haste error but I’m happy it’s @blue-boy.
His middle name was Clyde actually, since the song was about his piano player, Jonnie Johnson. Berry being teetotal, he really was telling Johnnie to be good, as he liked a drink……if you’re being pedantic.
It’s clearly about a guitarist? He played it like ringing a bell whatever that means.
Like a ringing, bell
Doesn’t work the other way round.
“He could ring a bell just like playing a guitar”
….eh?
Is everyone taking the piss?
For Johnny, playing fiddly guitar was as easy as ringing a bell is for you..
Depends on the bell. Me and Esmeralda find it dashed hard work don’t you know.
REM’s Lifes Rich Pageant doubtless had the aforementioned Apostrophe Protection Society up in arms when it came out. I seem to recall the absence of an apostrophe was deliberate, but I can’t remember why. Anyone?
I read somewhere that it was down to Michael Stipe – he just doesn’t like them
The Apostrophe Protection Society were up in arms about REM’s “Lifes Rich Pageant” (1986) for only about a year. After that, they had to switch their attention to Tom Waits’s “Franks Wild Years” (1987).
Don”t forget (the magnificent) Odessey and Oracle by The Zombies. Other spelling mistakes?
(We Don’t Need This) Fascist Groove Thang
Thang and Thing are not the same “thing”, in fact. There is a subtle difference in meaning which is almost beyond my powers of description but nonetheless exists. Things can be tangible or intangible. Thangs are always intangible.
I thank you might be right. And I think you for your explanation.
Well, we could start with the entire Slade repertoire.
Slade? Most rock ‘n’ is made by AMERICANS – “colors”, “aluminum”, “miuzi” – none of those f*ckers can spell!
But that was deliberate
But how can we say that Noddy was tipping us a knowing wink, while Rod and Colin were just crap at spelling?
Rod and Colin could spell, unfortunately the LP cover designer couldn’t.
Led Zeppelin managed to mangle “Soiree” somewhat with “South Bound Saurez”
(What’s So Funny ‘Bout) Peace, Love, and Understanding
Correct use of apostrophe (to signal a missing letter) but where’s the question mark Nick?
I’m agnostic about the Oxford comma in most cases, but this one wasn’t strictly necessary.
It wasn’t a question, it was a statement, ahead of explaining what was/is so funny. We laugh still.
Shirley he’s saying you can have understanding but not necessarily love. I think we can all agree. A good example of where the Oxford comma is justified.
To the OP, I agree!
If that was what he was saying it would be Peace, Love or Understanding, surely?
Turns out that the original Brinsley Schwarz waxing had no punctuation at all on the label. Elvis C added one comma after Peace. The second comma appeared later. I’m inclined to suspect US journalists and their bloody Oxford commas.
The Stones’ “Paint It, Black” (as it says on the earliest pressings, although I cannot link to a photo right now) seems very unfortunate because by adding a comma to make the phrase vocative, it sounds racist. It was revised on later issues, I think.
Talking of carols, A Wain in a Manger actually makes more sense than the original if you think about it.
He was “away” though, wasn’t he? Over there in the barn, away from the inn.
Depends where you’re standing when you sing it
The first verse goes a bit Yoda at the end – “The little Lord Jesus, no crying, he makes!”
Actually that might not be the first verse. Ignorant, I am.
On the topic of carols, if not strictly grammar, O Little Town of Bethlehem must hold the world record for ‘Song Where The Lyrics Least Fit The Melody.” You have to keep adding vowel sounds to make the words fit the tune.
Just in the first verse you’ve got ‘Be-e-thlee-ee-hem’ and ‘Dree-ee-ee-mless’, and then this line:
Yet in the dark street shineth
Which you have to sing as
Ye-et iiin the dar-ark stree-eet shi-i-i-i-neth
Which means the words are, by my count, seven syllables too short for the melody.
Also, I’m not sure whether it’s necessary to point out that the stars are silent, or accurate to say that they ‘go by’. Are they thinking of buses? And if they shineth, shouldn’t they also goeth by?
Don’t forget King Wenceslas, the consonant mangler.
…though the frost was crew-el
… gathering winter few-oooh-el…
The Consonant Mangler; that was by John le Carré, wasn’t it?
The ‘Coventry Carol” (I think that’s what its called) genuinely gives me the creeps, and it has too many words for the tune.
The one that goes ‘Bye-bye-lu-lay, thou little tiny child’.
Ugh.
That’s one of the very few carols or Christmas songs which I absolutely love.
I’ve always know it as the Coventry Carol, but it’s on Kate Rusby’s new Christmas album under the title Lu Lay.
Ye-et iiin the dar-ark stree-eet shi-i-i-i-neth
Where’s Liam Gallagher when you need him?
‘Shi-i-i-i-nethhh” *huge, gasping intake of breath* ‘the everlasting etc. . .’
Back to the OP title, is it a statement or a command?
Talking to bells is a fool’s errand, I’ve found.