Think of a favourite band or artiste. Think of their “best” work…..is it also your “favourite” in every case, or can you separate objective best work from subjective favourite work? For example, if anyone asks what the best Roxy Music album is, I will always answer “For Your Pleasure” – but my favourite is “Country Life” (sorry, Tiggerlion).
Anyone got anything similar? Here’s a treat while you consider…
Try again….
…..and again….
(Gave up)….
(about the oknly thing I can do: hit the ENTER button, then paste in the link)
Thanks, Declan.
Just one example off the top of my head. Captain Beefheart – the critical darling is Trout Mask Replica but Safe as Milk is the one we all play. No?
Yep, with you on that one
@steerpike
I love it.
Talking about a Beefheart album in the same way mere civilians might talk about a Michael Jackson one.
“I can see why Off The Wall is his best album but Thriller is my favourite”
I’ll take that t-shirt in medium – and in a heartbeat.
“…Safe As Milk is the one we all play…”
I’ll take that T in a medium.
And in a heartbeat.
I love the after Afterword
Is Trout Mask Replica really the critical darling? The thing about Beefheart is, there are tunes on all of his albums, just not that one. It’s an interesting art statement but a good album? Not sure about that.
Anyone tried to play Trout Mask Replica lately? I tried last year and it sounded bloody awful. Safe as Milk on the other hand still sounds great.
For me I would say most people have either My aim is true or This Years model as best Costello albums. Me? That will always be King of America.
Led Zep – much prefer their first album to the rest
XTC – English Settlement – probably not their best but the one I always go back to
Icicle Works – Bicycle – although to be fair, did the critics like any of their work?
Zero.
I guess that critical opinion wise, Phys Graf and Vol 4 garner most plaudits. With Vol 2 having no small army of admirers.
My favourite album is arguably the worst of the classic canon (Vol. 1 to Presence).
My favourite is Houses Of The Holy. I can see why following Vol 4, HOTH may have seen like a street corner juggler following Cirque Du Sooiel but…
I would contend that they never swung with such grace and punch as on Over The Hills And Far Away or hit as mesmeric a groove as on The Song Remains The Same or were as ever as tender as on The Rain Song.
In short, I think it’s better than sometimes thought.
In any event, I like it the most of all Zep and I like nearly all Zep.
Me too. HOTH that is. I like the variety. The Rain Song is one of their career highpoints for me. No Quarter is fantastic. Probably think of Physical Graffiti as their best but I enjoy HOTH more really.
It’s alright, fitter stoke, just because a YouTube clip isn’t embed doesn’t mean it can’t be viewed. If a tree falls in a forest….etc
Joe Jackson’s best work is considered to be his first two albums, I’m The Man and Look Sharp (1979) and then Night And Day (1982) because they behold the hit singles, but I think Blaze Of Glory (1989) is my favourite JJ LP.
This, I believe is his finest song. A remarkably numb lyrical sentiment for such a beautiful grandiose arrangement.
Q gave it five stars when it came out, if you’re interested. NME gave it five, too…. out of ten. JJ was not cool in 1989.
You’re right, a fantastic (and mostly ignored) album, *except* for the bloody awful Art Of Noise knock-off “Discipline”, which only my anal retentiveness prevents me from skipping whenever I play it…
(I can feel another thread coming on – “Great albums spoiled by one duff track”…)
Yes great call. Some brilliant songs (Down to London, Nineteen Forever, Me and You (Against the World) etc – and I remember the tour when he performed the whole album being an absolute killer of a show.
So given our collective view maybe it is actually his best after all…
@fitterstoke
I would say that Stranded is Roxy’s best album.
And it also happens to be my favourite.
Never mind the effect that Marilyn Cole gatefolded had on my 13 year old self.
(I wouldn’t call George Harrison a favourite artiste of mine, but) I can see why All Things Must Pass is considered an important album. Sprawling, ambitious, the songwriting “diarrhea” that poured out of him. Acclaimed by many as the best post-Beatles solo album. And yet, and yet… give me 1979’s self-titled ‘George Harrison’ album every time. It’s happier, jollier, more fun than ATMP.
The Clash ‘London Calling’. One of the best albums of all time ever in the history of everything. Every track a killer. And yet, and yet… give me Sandinista every time. Flawed, loadsa shite on it, but what glorious dubby mess it is.
Agreed. A lot of people complain about the production on Sandinista, but it sounds really warm and quite blissful to me. May not be what they were aiming for, I admit.
There is some simply great stuff buried away on there…. like Tim Curry being a vicar. You don’t get that with Showaddywaddy (prove me wrong @Beany…)
What you talking about @moose-the-mooche I cannot comment because I don’t understand.
I only assumed that you would possess the complete works of Showaddywaddy.
With them being crap and everything.
What are you insinuating? I only own a few of their singles. I did arrange the security and humpers at one of their gigs at Leeds Grand Theatre in the ’70s. It was another world back then.
Crap? They were way ahead of their time I tell you.
Humpers!
…oh I spose you mean roadies.
I’ve SEEN the ‘Waddy. I thought they were great. I was seven.
Richard Thompson – the critics’ darlings seem to be I Want to See the Bright Light’s Tonight, Shoot Out the Lights and Rumor and Sigh. Fine albums all, but give me Pour Down Like Silver, or Amnesia, or Mock Tudor.
Amnesia may illustrate a theory – is your favourite album usually the one where you came in? I first saw Thommo at Cropredy in ’87 and ’88 and Amnesia was his next album, and the first RT I bought. I soon worked my way through the back catalogue and have kept up with him since, but Amnesia will always be a favourite as the starting point of my journey.
ABC I think over-familiarity has led me to prefer Beauty Stab to the Lexicon of Love.
I also much prefer Pulp’s His ‘n’ Hers to Different Class.
Pixies – Doolittle usually named as the classic. Bossanova is the one for me though.
For me it’s Trompe. It’s the only one I actually love.
It’s a lonely life.
Trompe Le Monde is my 2nd favourite Pixies album.
Motorway to Roswell is one of their best tracks IMHO.
Bowie. Hunky Ziggy or Low are the ones at the top of the critical tree but I love never let me down
……..
No of course not but my favourite is station to station. Nothing transitional for me about it. Think his singing was never better.
That made me laugh. Had me going for a moment…
My favourite Rolling Stones album is Goats Head Soup. It has a glow about it none of the others do. It tastes like buttercups, growing wild on a grave. My guess is that there at least four albums meant to be *better*.
Here is the *worst* track & I love it much more than anything on Exile On Main Street.
Can You Hear The Music
Never actually listened to Goats Head Soup but am going to later on tonight, purely on the strength of “tastes like buttercups, growing wild on a grave” – magnificent!
A great album only undermined by the production and overlooked because sticky and exile preceded it. Lots of nice work from Mick T too.
Coming after Exile, the production is a breath of fresh air. Now that Exile has been repeatedly remastered, it is difficult to remember how sludgy it was. Yes. Even on vinyl in 1972
Keith made a snide comment about Jimmy Miller after Goat. He said Jimmy had gone out to Jamaica a lion and came back a mouse. He was suffering from all the drugs he’d consumed, a substantial proportion of which had occurred during the five years he spent as part of The Stones entourage. His liver gave out aged 52.
Keith was hardly doing well himself. They recorded in Jamaica because that was the only country that would have him. His contribution to Goat is small, hence Mick Taylor’s prominence. He does find time to sing an uncouth, nasty song about stealing Brian’s girlfriend, though.
Had a discussion on the new site about this.The production is lousy, you might say it is better than the muddy original exile @tiggerlion but GHS sounds remote ,no presence whatsoever and lacks bottom end.
Still a great record and if a decent remastering could be done it would be a wonderful thing. As I understand it subsequent versions have sounded little better.
Re Jamaica, it may have been legally helpful but Keef was certainly into reggae by then.
You’re not alone Moose; it’s Trompe for me too. I fell in love with Pixies through that album then worked backwards.
Ffs- how *does* one reply directly to a poster?!
FFS doesn’t really belong in this thread! They’ve only made one album and that’s not out for over a month!
I can’t on iPad or phone, just on the laptop
This was just done on an iPad @moselymoles but it is pernickety.
@moseleymoles
Pulp: the critics’ darling tends to be His & Hers, while some like to play the old switcheroo and nominate This Is Hardcore. Whereas, as any fule no, my favourite Pulp album is also easily their best, and it’s their magnificent swan song, We Love Life.
I’d agree that Houses Of The Holy is very good indeed – although it does include D’yer make ‘er, which is one of the worst songs ever.
What about Til Tuesday? Nowadays, the consensus seems to be that their third and final album Everything’s Different Now was their best. Well phooey to that: Welcome Home is not only their best, but one of the best albums of the 80s; and, for what it’s worth, probably one of my half dozen most played records of any era.
Obviously I have to answer the Richard Thompson question: I’d nominate You? Me? Us? – not because it’s perfect, but because out of that unwieldy double you could make a killer single, including some of his very best songs, viz Cold Kisses, Dark Hand Over My Heart and (bloody masterpiece) Woods Of Darney, which I’d take to a desert island.
REM
The general consensus is that their best album is Automatic For The People, although you could make a case for Green, Life’s Rich Pageant and New Adventures.
But my favourite is Document, which is the first album I bought by them.
Nick Cave – “The Boatman’s Call” is my favourite. By general consensus it’s deemed his best album, although your agreement would depend on whether you prefer Sad Nick to Bad or Mad Nick.
I like Bad Nick- it’s Let Love In for me (though TBC is a crushingly sublime album, I grant you).
I’m a huge fan of Nick Cave +/- Bad Seeds. I even liked The Birthday Party (incredible gig, I have to say, for many reasons). In fact, on the old site I claimed he’d saved my life. However, I can’t get on with The Boatman’s Call. To be honest, I cannot recall listening to it all the way through. I find it unfailingly soporific. The burnt ember sound of the production and his smokey voice, delivered at a gentle pace, sends my mind wandering or actively dozing off. I simply physically cannot pay attention. I’ve tried. I know the words are important. I’ve read them carefully. They strike me as being very good, possibly his best. On the page. Listen to them, I can’t. It starts to affect me before I even play it. The CD seems to weigh heavier in my hand.
It’s a shame. I rate every other Nick Cave album in my personal top ten of all time. I can’t judge The Boatman’s Call as it hasn’t had the requisite six listens.
Bob – the typical choices come from the highway 61, Blonde on blonde ,Blood on the tracks triumvirate.
But my favourites are planet waves ,street legal and time out of mind.
REM: as @wheldrake mentions, ‘Automatic’ is oft-quoted as their best; but ‘Life’s Rich Pageant’ is my favourite due to it’s complete gorgeousness.
Joni: ‘Blue’ is the all killer no filler one but ‘Hissing…’ will always be my favourite, mainly due to ‘Edith and the Kingpin’ , which I heard at age 15 and hugely influenced my subsequent listening habits.
Van’s Astral Weeks is meant to be the one. But it’s nowhere near as good as Wavelength or Veedon Fleece or….
One out of two ain’t bad @henpetsgi
With you on vexed on, not so much on wavelength
I got to proof my posts better – was referring to Astral Weeks
Perfect title for a Van record – “Vexed On”!
(two months or so into the new site and with all the usual caveats like “thanks for all the work” etc – we need Edit!!)
As current custodian of the AW’s copy of Astral Weeks, I gave the CD a spin the other week.
It’s going back at the next mingle.
I’m a bit confused. How is “best” judged. I always thought that it meant your favourite. It seems that some people are confusing “best” with “What I think other people probably think is the best”.
Best as in what people perceive to be general consensus, the accepted wisdom.
In this context it’s supposed to mean what you, when trying to be objective (as far as that is possible) , consider the best. I may well think Blood On The Tracks is Dylan’s best (due to quality of lyrics, musicianship, effectiveness in being expressive, amount of memorable, lasting tunes etc.) but my favourite might be Nashville Skyline ‘cos I play it more often and it’s more of a fun listen.
I’ve always found the topic of ‘objectivity/subjectivity’ in judging art to be interesting. I think there is undeniably an element of both. For example, I know, as an objective fact, that Mozart’s ‘Requiem’ is better than Patrik Fitgerald’s ‘Optimism/Reject’, despite the fact that I prefer the latter. If I’m right in thinking thus, then there must be some considerations which qualify objective value, just as there must be lines of distinction allowing one to differentiate between the worth of songs.
And then it occurs to me that I think I’ll go lie down for a while in the sun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTapPpyD9VI
Make art objectively. Appreciate it subjectively.
Creation is made up of a hundreds if not thousands of highly objective decisions both large and small. Many of these decisions effect other decisions that have to be made further on in the process so objectivity is vitally important. The idea of the artist as some sort of a windswept free spirit capriciously creating ‘art’ off the cuff is well wide of the mark. In reality it’s just lots and lots of hard work.
Appreciation of art is always subjective. Even when we know that objectively that any piece of music by say Beethoven is of much greater complexity and ‘worth’ than any music from let’s say The Sweet, many people will prefer to listen to The Sweet rather than Beethoven. Whenever we set out to ‘appreciate’ art we bring to it ourselves. Our collected past experiences. Our memories. Many of them only subconsciously. They inevitably colour our perceptions and cannot be set aside no matter how objective we believe ourselves to be in our assessments.
Frankly everyone’s head is a morass of conflicting thoughts and emotions. It’s a small miracle that any of us manage to make even a vaguely coherent decision about anything let alone something as amorphous as ‘art’.
I suspected that you would have some insight on this subject, Mr Squeezer….
A bit of a half formed remark really Fitter. I should order my thoughts more before posting and stop blathering on when I’m waiting for paint to dry.
In my rush to fit in my two pennies worth I invariably end up sounding like a blithering idiot.
Which of course I am.
I find it interesting that, despite more than 50 years of listening to and appreciating (even when I don’t realise it) music, I can’t consider anything I don’t like to be ‘worth’ anything to me at all. If a piece of music has been written for a purpose or commissioned I can see that it could be considered better for the chosen role than another piece but then, if it was placed incongruously in another context it may be considered worse.
As far as visual art is concerned, to give an example, in our offices at work, we have a number of fairly large canvasses commissioned by the company from 6 form art students a few years ago. They brighten the place considerably and I think they sit perfectly in their environment. We could have some “old masters” instead but, in general, whatever the relative technical merits of 6 formers against, say, Rembrandt, I’d take the 6 formers art any day…. although I’d rather a Rauschenberg, Lichtenstein or Pencilsqueezer any day.
Thanks John. I guess visual art or visual art that involves the existence of some form of physical objectivity is easier to place monetary ‘worth’ upon to some extent. Market forces are at play. Even if to any rational being the market forces at play in the context of art seem to be completely irrational. In the rarefied extremes of the international art market art is a commodity, a currency. An outward manifestation of wealth, ego and power. A rich person’s game. I do not inhabit that world nor do the vast bulk of the world’s practicing artists.
Art is ‘worth’ what an individual is prepared to pay for it.
In the context of music I was referring to what is considered ‘worthy’. A far more subjective process. Don’t you just loathe the word ‘worthy’. It immediately creates a miasma of snobbery and exclusion around music whenever it rears it’s ugly head.
Music should be enjoyed, celebrated, rolled around in no holds barred not closeted away in some dusty mental or physical corner and revered as ‘worthy’.
I am no fan of musical apartheid but we are all prone to it because of subjectivity. A highly subjective subjectivity.
Boy can I blather!
Ver Floyd
DSotM – universally acclaimed as their masterpiece and multi trillion sales prove it’s place in universal consciousness but it isn’t a patch on Meddle or Wish You Were Here.
Or Animals…..thinking about it.
Though it is better than The Wall. Which is turgid bollocks.
I always see DSotM and WYWH as companion pieces showcasing Rog ‘n’ Dave Floyd’s zenith. Meddle I see as the forerunner. Animals I see as the end of that band and the beginnings of Rog Floyd. I like Rog Floyd. But nowhere near as much as I like Rog ‘n’ Dave Floyd.
I prefer Eddie Floyd
I prefer Flo & Eddie
I am with you on the Floyd, I much prefer Animals & WYWH to DSOTM, & everything is better than the wall (& by everything I include The Sweet).
FYC, The Police – Synchronicity is regarded as the “best” album they ever recorded – give me Reggatta de blanc & Outlandos De la mor any day.
Apologies for any spelling mistakes.
One for @black-celebration here…..
Violator is generally held up to be the one DM classic but I still feel Songs of Faith and Devotion and Black Celebration knock it into the long grass.
Hi @sixdog – I know what you mean. I can see why people rate Violator so much. It’s their most “complete” sounding album – the linking interludes make all the difference I think. I see Violator, Songs of Faith and Devotion and Ultra as their “plateau” of quality songs and smooth, polished production. All three are fine albums.
But I have the most affection for Black Celebration. This was the 5th album and there are bits that don’t work. Lyrically a couple of the songs were a bit embarrassing (fly on the windscreen, New Dress) but there were glimpses of the quality that was coming ( Stripped, A Question of Time, Dressed in Black, Here is the House) and increasing eccentricity (Black Day). It didn’t set the world alight sales wise. Violator was their breakthrough 7th (!) studio album.
I’m not very rational when it comes to Depeche Mode. It’s hard for me to come up with a favourite
Most people agree that ‘Sign O The Times’ is Prince’s masterpiece and that ‘Chaos and Disorder’ is his worst – a half-hearted contractual obligation effort.
But I much prefer ‘Chaos and Disorder’. In fact it’s my favourite Prince album.
‘In the Land of the Grey and Pink’ is cited as the ultimate Caravan classic. It’s good.
But my favourite is ‘Blind Dog at St Dunstan’s’…which all the critics slated.
Everyone says ‘Ram’ is Macca’s best solo album.
But I think ‘Wild Life’ is a killer.
Ha, only kidding…..
You are Tigger and I etc.
Love Pencil’s ‘Make art objectively. Appreciate it subjectively’. There are load of instances where I know and can make the case for a record – or a piece of art of any kind – being better than another. And often this will accord with the overall received opinion. But that is often very different from my ‘Favourite’ in which all kinds of personal factors come into play, including what the work means to me, where I first heard/saw/read it, etc etc. So some examples:
Blonde on Blonde, Blood on the Tracks and Highway 61 Revisited is better than Street Legal – but the latter is my favourite. Partly because I do think its a great record, and much better than some give it credit for, but also because I associate it with a very important and good time in my life, and it was the record that came out when he did those Earl’s Court concerts, etc etc.
I think Revolver is probably The Beatles’ best, but Abbey Road possibly my favourite (I know, lets not start that again…)
I also love Some Girls over EOMS etc, maybe because it was a big part of my University soundtrack (Hell I even love Black and Blue).
On the other hand I will argue that some of my favourites actually are the artist’s best even if they are not generally regarded as such – St Dominic’s Preview, Tunnel of Love, Pour Down Like Silver, King of America, Still Crazy After All These Years, and Court and Spark come to mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SD6qQWxMrM
best … Midnight in Moscow
favourite … King of the Swingers