Messrs Hepworth and Ellen broached an interesting topic in the latest Word podcast. Which bands will last, and which will fade away. Good subject I thought.
Who would have thought a decade ago that Queen (48th) and Fleetwood Mac (103rd) would seem to be down with the kids and be higher up in the most listened to artists on Spotify lists than the Beatles (128th) and Stones (179th)? Or 20 years ago that Coldplay (14th) or Arctic Monkeys (53rd wtf!?) would not only still be around but still be weirdly huge.
I’m not convinced with the H&E theory that it’s all about the ‘story’ – the Doors (nowhere to be seen) seem to be all story but does anyone still care about them? I’m not sure it’s films either. OK, Elton John (44th!) had Rocketman and Queen had Bohemian Rhapsody but Baz Lurman’s Elvis doesn’t seem to have done the same for Elvis (347th) and Oliver Stone’s The Doors arguably finished them off way back when. And while my children enjoyed Yesterday it didn’t make them start listening to the Beatles, but they love Queen and Fleetwood Mac – you could say that they’d rather Fleetwood Mac than Jack.
I’m sure the Afterword hive mind will have theories, but also be willing to speculate wildly on which bands will or won’t stand the test of time and why. I should add, this isn’t about personal taste!
I’m afraid I’ve long since given up trying to understand the fickle tastes of the masses. I just don’t understand why some bands rocket to popularity and others don’t. It’s either me or the masses that are weird!
Fleetwood Mac in particular really baffle me. They seem to fluctuate in and out but always bubble up frequently and continue to mean something to new generations. My measuring stick for this is my oldest son and his friends (currently in their mid-20s) who for some baffling reason seem to rate Fleetwood Mac for no reason I can determine. I mean, Fleetwood Mac are decent, pretty good even (I’m talking about the 70s/80s version) but I’ve no idea why they mean something to younger generations.
I think possibly some music can just “catch” and spread, like a virus. Stating the obvious, the music must be good to start with, but I suppose it also needs some kind of uniqueness that makes it stick. And things like films and other events definitely help: I’m pretty sure Queen and Abba have risen again in no small part due to things like the We Will Rock You musical, the Bohemian Rhapsody film and the Mamma Mia musical.
But I’m just speculating really. I honestly don’t know. Pop music and its fickle ways will maybe always be something of a mystery (even though that won’t stop us all theorising, of course!) and long may that continue, I say.
I think that Fleetwood Mac may symbolise a certain, laid back 70s Californian vibe, which may be attractive.
But I think another reason is that Rumours is a fantastic, 5-star album that sounds great the first time you listen to it. Glee built an entire episode around it, back when Glee was Glee. Add in Rhiannon, Tusk, Everywhere etc and you’ve got a playlist that will take on all comers.
All very true. This alone probably put another decade on Fleetwood Mac’s popularity….
That’s how gloriously fickle all this stuff is.
These things are definitely cyclical. In the mid-90s the Beatles were massive, with one band in particular building an entire career on their work. Fleetwood Mac not so much then. Perhaps the definition of ‘lasting’ is having these cycles – the Beatles post-breakup faded away in the 70s, huge uptick in interest with John’s death in the early 80s, slumped again during acid and rave, back again with Britpop, and stayed at that level for a decade or more, before diminishing in favour of some of the bands above over the past decade.
The Elvis movie does not seem to have led to any great revival of interest in his music. Has he now passed the point of no return musically – the quiff and the suits are still relevant, (see early Christine and the Queens) but the music?
It’s really hard to tell which artists will stand the test of time, but I agree with you that it has very little to do with “story”, in the sense that Hepworth and Ellen use the term.
The idea that artists are geniuses and we need to buy Mojo/Uncut to read a five thousand word “piece” on their background to really understand the music is something that was of its time, and largely a creation of the music press, which no longer exists in the same form. I’m not sure that kind of long form music journalism has an audience in the same way these days, outside communities like this one/other niche sources.
What’s reflected in the OP is that bands with 70s/80s heydays continue to be listened to (or at least streamed) in larger volume than bands with 60s heydays. Which would suggest that time is a critical factor – it might be as simple as people wanting to listen to music from the era of their parents, but not their grandparents. Or it might be that the people who currently call the shots in the media had their own youth in the 70s and 80s, so these acts get coverage/movies and TV shows greenlit about them. Or it might just be that Queen and Fleetwood Mac are awesome (although that wouldn’t account for the lack of love for The Doors).
My instinct is that most, maybe even all, pop music will be forgotten over a long enough time frame, and that what remains is going to be dictated by the vagaries of what works on whatever platform/technology kids are spending their time on (some songs are simply more TikTok friendly, for example), and youth vibe/aesthetic. They’re all just bands, and ultimately it’s all pretty disposable. I think I’d prefer it if in a hundred years time no one listens to the music I like right now; things should move on, it’s better that way.
I think the production of music made in the late 70s and early 80s has aged well and is easy to approach, if you know what I mean. I’m not surprised that Queen and Fleetwood Mac are popular, and I’m sure that ABBA and Bob Marley are too. All from the same 5-7 year period really.
While he may yet fail to “stand the test of time”, its interesting to see how an artist like Rick Astley has gone from being a bit of a joke (that Rick-rolling thing a few years back) to receiving standing ovations at this year’s Glastonbury
Let’s also not forget the many long forgotten acts who’ve experienced a late stage career bounce following the use of one of their songs on an ad or film S/T
Five years ago, at my nephew’s wedding, I was astonished that all their twentysomething college mates were going wild specifically for all the stuff from my 80s college era. Sure enough, I stopped with them last weekend and they were singing high praises of Rick at Glastonbury.
Can’t say I’m a fan of his music, but he definitely put on a really good turn. Nice banter, didn’t take himself remotely seriously, winningly played the drums for an AC/DC cover (fulfulling a childhood dream, he said), and led a very tight band through a varied set. And NGGYU is still an absolute choon.
Good luck to him.
In October 1963, Tony Meehan – who had enjoyed three No.1 or 2 singles with Jet Harris since leaving the Shadows – formed a new Tony Meehan Combo with Joe Moretti, John McLaughlin, John Paul Jones and two sax players. He told Melody Maker ‘We are not for the fickle, we want to last.’ Three months later, after a tour in which his new band’s performances were hailed as sensational and one (mediocre) single in Shadows style, Tony’s pop career was – as we now know – finished and his players moved on. Huge one year, a yesterday man the next…
Does anyone know what happened to the others?
😀
I would always have said that of course the Beatles will last forever, but I wonder. Amongst people of a certain age the obsession is clearly stronger than ever – podcasts, books, box sets, etc. But they don’t seem to have made the leap to generation Z (maybe it’s the question of time mentioned by Bingo above or just one of moseley’s cycles), and Yesterday was just another film rather than a cultural event. Obviously their profile is helped by McCartney being a living national treasure, but once he goes (and their 50, 60, 70-something followers), I’m no longer sure it can be guaranteed. Same with Dylan. Their marketing people should probably be focused on TikTok right now…
I have a theory about why the Beatles, Stones etc. are ranked so low on Spotify. Everyone in the Western World, from toddlers upwards, knows their classics so well that they don’t need to ever play them. I can’t remember the last time I played a Beatles song. Must be a few years ago.
I reckon the Beatles have one more big cultural push left in them, probably around the time the last of the survivors passes on.
Following that, the audience will gradually slip off into the great unknown, and while you’ll still hear Let It Be et al in the form of elevator music and football chants, the impetus to play the actual music, much less lionize it, will slip away too.
The same will happen to all the acts I like too, probably far sooner (even for Andrew W.K). Time remains the undefeated champ.
It’s quite nice in a way; enjoy the stuff you like and relish the moment, knowing that it’s really just a passing breeze in a tiny corner of the great ballroom of the eternal, and that you were there to witness it all. Seems to me vastly preferable to stressing over whether your great great great great grandchildren will still be able to hum Get Back.
Per your last paragraph the first thing you have to do here is accept the notion that “the test of time” is a valid premise for pop. The idea seems to be that, once the hype has died down and fashion has moved on, if Ver Kids still value the music then you’re TOT positive.
But for most of its life most of pop has not been made that way. Grabbing the zeitgeist by the balls and screaming for attention has been THE POINT. So you have something like, say, Yellow by Coldplay which is a pleasant melody which, without any drastic re-arrangement, could have been released in any decade since the 60s and on the other hand a record like Pump Up The Volume by M/A/R/R/S which could only have come out exactly when it did and much of its significance comes from that.
The workshy perverts that produced most of your favourite music weren’t trying to get their mugs up on Mount PopMore, they were trying to have hits. This week. For the cash and ladies (or gentlemen) that are around RIGHT NOW.
That said, I’m afraid it’s true that Queen are now bigger than your precious Beatles. So it goes..
(The “your” at the top being addressed to Sir Bingo and the “your at the end” a reference to the AW hive, obvs)
… and all the better for it.
Elsewhere on the thread the question goes up: why are the uncool bands still popular? It’s because cool is transitory, and of the moment. Cool fades. The more you try to capture it (or even the more you manage to define it), the more it taints you as it withers away. Uncool bands simply don’t have this issue, which is why they’re empirically the best.
To a certain extent I think it also reflects the death of the music press. A good while ago, but for a long time, the music press had an outsized influence because it was basically one of two gatekeepers to music along with radio, so some bands were cool, others were naff. Now it holds zero influence people listen to whatever the hell they want, based on an endless array of ways of hearing and finding out about music.
Totally agree.
Once upon a time you might have been able to afford a couple of albums a month and the NME were probably your best hope of making that purchase decision in a relatively informed fashion, so you had no choice but to ingest all of the nonsense they wrote.
Now, listening is democratised – you’re not at the mercy of some douchebag in cowboys boots sat at a desk covered in freebie CDs, you can just follow your own ears. There’s no one to tell you that you need an education and haven’t lived if you don’t own x, y and z.
Couldn’t you say that WE are now “some douchebag in cowboys boots sat at a desk covered in CDs, telling one another that you need an education and haven’t lived if you don’t own x, y and z”?
Sad but true.
Speak for yourself – I don’t look good in cowboy boots…
I mean, I am wearing cowboy boots, and I am a douchebag, so tough to disagree with this thesis.
I’m not sure that it’s as freewheelin’ as all that.
More than ever, the established money-making acts get all the promotion and all the money because the risk of failure is much lower than spending money on a new thing. There used to be more of a mix because passionate music fans were peppered around the labels – but the business side utterly prevails now and wants immediate bang-for-buck, so it will go for the easiest route. Exceptions being the occasional drop-dead gorgeous young pop singer who do as they are told.
The recent media coverage of the Stones really should be about the latest sensations that are sweeping the nation, but we have got used to that not happening any more. There’s no NME or Q or Smash Hits equivalent that promotes new music via your device and nobody understands the pop charts, so we really don’t know if an act is genuinely popular.
The young guitar bands that emerge now are along the same lines as Michael Buble, who enjoy recreating a bygone area of entertainment and they do it really well. It pleases a lucrative market of mostly older people who are the only ones who can afford to go to the shows.
Before long, the pop and rock music that we know and love will be as profoundly dead as Arthur Askey, George Formby and Bill Haley and the Comets.
The trouble with me is that I can’t smile wide enough.
But thankfully Gerry Rafferty is still with us…
Does any of this really matter?
My record collection reflects my tastes not the tastes of others. So whether artists I rate may be 4,784th and lower on that list does that change how I feel about them, not bloody likely.
Remember this there are many more who listen* to music from physical media than stream music.
*They may not be buying music anymore they don’t have to they already own the music.
Nothing really matters.. .to me.
None of it matters a single iota.
For what it’s worth, I think physical media listening (not buying) is now down to less than a third of the audience. Usually a similar number to those who get their music from YouTube.
I guess what is popular now from the past chimes with new music. It has influenced what is in now or reminds fans of what is new, i.e. 80s or Fleetwood Mac v2, plus what made such acts uncool has long been forgotten. The music stands by itself more. Really it’s the songs that count but only some of them for any given act. The Beatles sound like another age, old fashioned, not having anything to do with music now, apart from a few tracks from Abbey Road, especially Come Together. Or Twist and Shout in a quaint, fun sense.
Yes maybe this is it, it’s now about songs, and just a few of them. Here Comes the Sun has been listened almost twice as much as any other Beatles song because it’s basically become a standard, not a Beatles song. But then Mr Brightside by the Killers has been listened to twice as much again. And it’s probably not worth contemplating how that compares to Ed Sheeran.
And your uncool comment strikes a chord. It’s the acts who were deemed irredeemably naff 30 years ago – Queen, Fleetwood Mac, Abba – who are now cross-generational huge, not those who were cool.
I don’t think that’s true at all about The Beatles. Maybe the very early stuff sounds dated, but anything after around 65 or 66 sounds as if it could have been recorded yesterday. Brilliant songs, brilliantly played recorded in a first class studio with the best production.
The compilation album “1” has sold 31 million copies this century. Not bad.
I was commenting from the perspective of a younger person, a younger generation, generalising of course. I still think they sound great.
Ah ok, my 17 yr old daughter loves them, but has 2 Beatle mad parents!
The youngsters are all listening to the Fabs on vinyl!
ABBA seeing to be doing alright
Fan question: Do you think you’ll be remembered in a thousand years?
David Bowie: “No. Absolutely not. A thousand years… My God, can you imagine? Of course, there’s talk of this huge comet explosion in something like 2090. It’s within the next hundred years, anyway. I suppose there’s a possibility that we might still be around in 3000. But think how much software will have been amassed – who would want to sit down and sift through it all?”
Typical Bowie going off on a tangent and missing the point of the question there! Comets? Software? What’s he on about? 🙂
@Gary
It’s no wonder he gave up on all the Nazi stuff.
It depends on how long “time” is. Everything will be forgotten in the end but if people are still listening to the Beatles, for example, 53 years after they broke up, that is quite remarkable. I don’t think in 1970 many people were listening to the Original Dixieland Jazz Band from 1917. The show tunes from the thirties onwards, still have a decent run, but maybe not the singers of those decades. Perhaps the oddity is the recent expectation that popular music isn’t ephemeral and that you might like the same music of someone forty years younger than you.
It’s likely to be much the same for pop groups of the future. You basically get the lifespan of your audience at peak, plus maybe a few extra years if you’re lucky. Because people like being reminded of their youth.
The Spice Girls are still being listened to and discussed 30 years on. I’ve no doubt the same will be the case in another two decades, it’s just that they’ll be the soundtrack to the youths of a bunch of 60 somethings instead of 40 somethings.
Give it 50 years after the audience expires and I doubt there will be so much as a zigazig ah to be heard.
Oddly, a musician friend plays in a band playing ‘New Orleans jazz’ – Trad, to the likes of you and me. They wear suits and co-respondent shoes rather than straw boaters and candy-striped waistcoats, but still have the trumpet/sousaphone/banjo/trombone/clarinet lineup and repertoire you’d associate with Acker Bilk or Kenny Ball. It’s by far the most lucrative of his regular gigs, people of all ages love it – kiddiwinks, hipsters and the old folks.
The ODJB were controversial – the longest surviving member, Nick LaRocca, wrote a book in the 50s or 60s bigging up the white man’s role (and specifically *his* role in the origin of jazz). Other opinions were available and were aired robustly. The figure being most lauded from New Orleans jazz in 1970 was still probably (black) Bunk Johnson (d. 1949) (whose reputation was somewhat exaggerated by myth) and certainly Bunk’s disciple George Lewis (d.1968), who visited Britain/Europe several times from 1957-66 to great acclaim – again, acclaim that was based partly on mythology but he was also a fine player. Ken Colyer – Bunk/George’s greatest fan & proselytiser in the UK/Europe – remained active in 1970 and beyond, so the thrust of the analogy – that no one cared about trad jazz in 1970 – isn’t quite right.
I think it could evolve in the same way as classical or “the great American songbook”. There’s a small core repertoire that’s regularly performed & kept alive long after the original performers, but the majority is forgotten.
But I think this music we refer to is more dependent on the original recording and the sound of it. It doesn’t necessarily stand up as songs for performers to interpret. It’s about a studio production in many cases that makes it what it is. I suppose there are those who reproduce the recording live, faithfully and perfectly, like The Analogues. Maybe that’s a direction to take but then if it’s so authentic then the records remain the thing, except that you get a great live show. The Abba thing depends on an ongoing interest in the act but I suppose it’s regenerating the band for all time so can work.
Jazz musicians do a lot to keep the Great American Songbook going – but these are mainly show tunes. There don’t seem be many, that I know of, who have used songs since the sixties. One exception is Brad Mehldau, who has recorded versions of songs by Nick Drake, The Beatles, Nirvana, and even Gentle Giant. I think there is enough in these songs and others for improvisers to work with, so I don’t know why more don’t do it. I wonder if it is that with most of the older tunes, you don’t have one arrangement in your mind, just the song itself. With most songs from the sixties onwards, you do usually have one recording in your mind as somehow the definitive version, which might make it slightly inhibiting to work up your own one.
Going off on a slight tangent, I find it intriguing that – based on info from a record label – the market for the late Bert Jansch and Pentangle (reissues, archive releases) remains in rude health while the market for the late John Renbourn, the ‘other’ Pentangle guitarist and in-parallel solo artist, has died a death. (That being said, Renbo’s disciple the excellent Clive Carroll is on the cusp of releasing a 2LP homage to the man along with a tour of Renbo’s repertoire.)
“Renbo”? You’re turning into Retro!
You got a prob, Fitto?
Arfo!
@retropath2 don’t you mean probo?
Probo.
I think you meant ‘probo, Hubo’…
I think Jansch had a much higher profile as a singer/songriter both as a member of Pentangle and as a solo artist, which has carried forward.
At this juncture, can I just say Kylie?
I think that one rather goes without saying. Upon the eventual heat death of the universe the stars themselves will fall silent, plunging the cosmos into an endless night, disturbed only by the occasional faint la la la, la la la la la emanating from points unknown.
Padam!
Also: Olivia Rodrigo. New album is really, really good.
Just ordered it and have the single. But to be fair, O-Rod can’t claim longevity just yet.
I really don’t know what happened with The Doors?
When I was 16 (this was in the late 1980s) they were pretty much right up there with the Beatles, Stones, Velvet Underground,Hendrix as one of the key 60s artists for the aspiring hipster to get into.
Not only that but they had also still been cited by bands as an influence right through punk, post punk and beyond.
Now they seem to have almost completely fallen off the radar.
It’s a teenage phase to like them, went through it myself
Maybe no-one got out of there alive.
20% of us must have…
I’d put Hendrix in a similar category. I suspect if you asked the average 20 year old it’s quite possible they’d not have heard of him. Very rare to hear his music in the wild these days and the whole concept of the guitar god has essentially died a death.
Both brilliant acts, just not really on the cultural radar so much now. Although one song in the right TV show or meme could obviously change that on a sixpence.
Yes, my perspective is a bit skewed on Hendrix as I play the guitar and Jimi is still mentioned a lot in that community, but agree, not sure how many 20 year old would have heard of him.
Oddly enough they’re more likely to have heard Nick Drake who was extremely obscure when I was that age.
Whatever Generation Z reckon = run away from like the clappers.
Whatever Generation Z don’t reckon = lump on big time.
Poor little dodgers.
So that’s Rock ‘n’ Roll, The Doors and Jimi on rotation in between the sport this weekend.
Englebert Humperdink?
Which one?
But Rumours was seen as terminally unfashionable in the late 80s and early 90s then came back in in the early 2000s and has never really gone away again.
It was unfashionable in 1977!
In your house, maybe…
Correct answer @fitterstoke
Always loved that album and I fought the punk wars*
* had to be home for 10 though.
More fool us for reading the NME and the others in the 80s telling us it was terminally uncool. Once their influence went away the next generation was able to approach it properly and realise what a great record it is.
(See my posts passim, regarding the malign influence of the NME).
but Generation Z aren’t fussed about The Clash….
Logic is not your friend here, I think.
With Facebook, Fansites and blogs, and discerning places like this, pretty much any band could stand the test of time, even if they only appeal to 4 people.
Many Punk bands had their 15 minutes, but with events like Rebellion and Butlins quite a few are still kicking after 45 years.
A very interesting subject, and something I’ve been thinking about lately. I have numerous albums by artists that I love passionately but will mean *absolutely* nothing to the man in the street. And probably vice versa.
Yet every now and again, an act comes along that many millions of people take to their hearts, for whatever unknown, magical reason. And sometimes that act keeps selling, and selling, for year after year. And sometimes they’re gone and almost forgotten in a year or two.
These thoughts, such as they are, were sparked by watching Frankie Goes to Hollywood on an old TOTP. For a short while, they were kings of the world, and their music, and T-shirts, and covers, were everywhere. Now? There must be whole generations who have never heard Relax, Two Tribes, etc., and wouldn’t know Holly J if he stood in front of them wearing a T-shirt reading “Frankie say
… I was the singer”.
For whatever reason, the music gods decided FGTH would burn brightly but briefly (other than for people who buy 80s compilations or watch any show/film set in 1984) but ABC, to pick an 80s contemporary at random, would keep ticking steadily along, never scaring the horses and probably making a reasonable living 40 or so years after their peak.
I’m sure every music company and manager has some sort of AI working on cracking the secret of music longevity, but for now I’ll just be grateful that the artists I love were together and supported long enough to record music that makes me very happy.
The biggest artist of the 80s in chart terms was Shakin Stevens.
No Rewind / Heritage Festivals for Mr Shakey – he’s now just the bloke who sings a Christmas song.
Hugely popular, if only for a moment (or 5 or 6 years in this case)
But there are a couple of Shakey tribute acts doing the rounds..!
In truth, there are very many shakey tribute acts doing the rounds…😉
Oddly, I was discussing this with my son and some of his friends just recently. I opined that Fleetwood Mac seem to be the act that most crosses generations, and they totally agreed. I was also demonstrating some speakers to another friend of his recently as he was interested in buying them, and he asked to hear some Queen.
I think it helps that FM have that one big album full of classics – I’m not sure how many younger people have listened to or even heard of, for instance, Mirage or Behind the Mask. Queen are a Greatest Hits band – again, I doubt many have explored beyond the first Greatest Hits album, and they don’t need to – it’s full of absolute bangers.
Also that there are effectively two Fleetwood Mac’s (ie the Peter Green and the Rumours version).
I’d argue that they have two big albums full of classics – Tango In The Night obviously isn’t quite on a par with Rumours, but has a handful of massive hits. (Where’s Moose when you give him an open goal?).
I work at Sothebys in London where we had something like 140k visitors queuing around the block daily to see the Freddie exhibition over August. Loads of hardcore fans, broad span of ages, most clearly not former NME readers. The book we made to document the collection has had to be reprinted four times as we’re shipping them worldwide. Queen fans clearly still very much around, over 30 years since Freddie died.
Heartily recommended… “Taste” – aired on Radio 4 on Thursday.
Two DJs talking about taste, I kid you not.
Unintentionally, a step-by-step guide on what not to buy.
I thought you were talking about Rory Gallagher’s old band for a minute, there!
At this stage, can I ask a practical question?
Will they be playing Runrig in 2123?
They’ve been playing ‘em a fair bit this week, with the death of vocalist Bruce Guthro, who took over when Donnie Munro left to become a politician, an endeavour Munro failed at. Unlike guitarist Pete Wishart.
I was sorry to hear of BG’s death, even though I always thought Donnie was a much better frontman whose sound suited Runrig perfectly. Bruce’s Canadian accent seemed to alter the Scottish atmosphere, and he couldn’t handle the Gaelic, when some of their best songs are the non-English ones.
That said, he helped them do some great shows (the farewell gig, The Last Dance, is very powerful indeed), and there is some good stuff on their post-Donnie albums. And 62 is no age at all. RIP.
I notice that Racey have finally been name checked on the cover of the new Record Collector. The re-evaluation of their contribution begins…
Interesting to read The Doors are a bit forgotten but Fleetwood Mac are popular with younguns. Here in Italy I’d say it’s the opposite, any young person would be more likely to know The Doors than F Mac. (And more likely to know Queen than either.) Jim Morrison is still admired as cool, for some reason. I see kids wearing him on t-shirts. I wonder who’d win the “most recognised” award in other countries around the AW globe?
It’s because of the Italian Job reference, innit? “You’re only supposed…”
Top comment!
Is Generation Z the reason why everyone in the UK has – while not in a chazza and having to listen to the shite that is abba and fleetwood mac – to hear Sweet Caroline, a song not heard since the mid-1970s by anyone, anywhere – on the hour, every hour? I heard it an hour ago, I presume I’m due my next stint.
Can’t help thinking we need a detailed list (Dai?) of exactly what these dodgers reckon.
Dai.
Hey, maybe Dai could do it.
On a tangent, at least our pop chums often fare better than some other entertainers. Morecambe and Wise guested on The Sweeney once and you can imagine John Thaw and Dennis Waterman being a little starstruck to be in the company of TV royalty. More so, perhaps than if it had been, say, Elton John and Rod Stewart. But stars who commanded audiences of twenty million viewers on a Saturday night when Sir Elt was having his first number one with Kike Dee – Mike Yarwood or Russ Abbott types – are barely remembered now, unless they’re having their collar felt by Yewtree..
Mike Yarwood passed away yesterday. There were mentions in the usual news outlets, but not widely reported (eg I don’t recall seeing a focused tribute or mention on BBC News)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-66758400
(BBC Breakfast apparently showed a picture of Lionel Blair when it was mentioned)
I just did an obit for him so the Massive can pay their respects.
RIP Mr “And this is me!”
Very much of his time and seems to have made the fatal error that
he was far more talented than he actually was.
Some would argue that the end of MY’s career was the
only good thing to come out of Mrs T’s election win.
I suspect my Mum and Dad would have been very sad
F**k! Really? Sad for him and his but also a bit freaked at the juju that brought him to mind. I could have as easily said Dick Emery or one of several others..
Sturgeons Law applies here I think – ‘90% of everything is crap’. In this case, whether it’s crap or not, 90% of everything will be forgotten. For all that so much classical music continues to be listened to today, there is even more that has been consigned to the dustbin of history. Quite how it will play out with pop, I’m not sure, because it is so much more about specific recordings than the music itself. For that reason maybe, as alluded to earlier int the thread, in due course, many great songs will still be listened to but not necessarily the original recordings of them. But, to be honest, I’m not even sure Beethoven and Tchaikovsky will still be being listened to in 100 years time, other than by a tiny group of aficionados, never mind Chuck Berry.
Possibly, but the global axis is tilting towards the East, where, in some respects, classical music is arguably more prevalent than much of the old world. It’s also noticeable how many games have orchestral soundtracks.
Music for computer gaming is one of the branches of the industry where the money is, currently.
Taking Beethoven as the example: if we’re still listening after 200 years (and we seem to be), what do you think will change in the next 100, to reduce that listener base to “a tiny group of aficionados“? Let’s face it: we’re not talking about, eg, Gong – or Patrik Fitzgerald – here…
Quote from my daughter’s music teacher only this week: “Thankfully we’re not going to be studying Mozart this term as I’ve been instructed to focus less on dead white men”.
The collective taste can change quite quickly, and in surprising ways. I don’t think it’s a given Beethoven will be as well known as he is today in another century or so. A hundred years is a long ass time, lots can change.
I take your general point – but what gets studied in school music classes has relatively little to do with what people actually listen to.
Of course. It was just one anecdotal example of how (and why) things can suddenly change.
👍
To be clear, I imagine much classical music will still be listened to in 100 years time – but because tastes are changing all the time, some stuff will probabaly have receded into the distance, and others come forward. My sense is that apart from Bach and Mozart, a lot of earlier composers are much less popular than they were (Haydn for example) whilst 20th century composers like Stravinsky and Shostakovich are growing in popularity.
But the rate of change now and no doubt over the next century is much greater than it was over the last hundred years, and music is a much bigger and broader field. So I just think we can have no idea how things are going to play out.
On the Classical Orchestral front, what people get to hear in concert is very much governed by what the orchestras can get bums on seats for. A Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky or Brahms concert can be seen as a safe bet. Gorecki, Schumann, Bruckner or Smetana less so. The repertoire tends to perpetuate itself.
A full orchestra roaring away at something is a thing to be experienced, but filling a hall for anything but the established greats of the music is very dependent on sponsorship of one kind or another, and sponsorship is getting harder to find.
I’m guessing that’s why they buy CDs of Gorecki, Schumann, Bruckner and Smetana…
Gorecki certainly seems very popular, although I’d rather see any of the other three in concert myself.
I went to three proms this year, and two of them started with new works by living composers. I think this is quite common practice. And very good they were two, Four African Dances by Carlos Simon, and Symphony no 2 by Samy Moussa. Simon is American and Moussa Canadian, neither of them white, but both very schooled in the Western classical tradition. So both surely very aware of the mainly dead white males they are following. If you cut that out from teaching you don’t understand how we got here, not just in classical music, just as it would be daft to ignore other traditions, particularly in American music. The Moussa work was particularly good, and stood comparison with the other works on the programme by Shostakovich and Stravinsky.
⬆️ This. And I’m envious – I watched as many as I could on the telly…
” . . . I’ve been instructed to focus less on dead white men.”
Interesting. So which alive-white-men and / or dead-or-alive-not-white-men has he been instructed to focus on? Genuinely curious.
Hopefully he’s also been instructed to read “Quartet” by Leah Broad.
Absolutely no idea. I like to imagine it’ll be mainly Dr Dre this term.
In terms of durability, musical scores rate over digital formats. Plus. there is a lot of melody in Bach, Beethoven, Mozart that is ahistorical – can be rediscovered at any age. Pachibel’s Canon, as is well documented in online comedy videos, is the source of many, many pop hits. No coincidence, I think. there are only 12 notes – all of them right, just sometimes in the wrong order.
When it comes to popularity, I’m not sure Spotify tells the whole story. The Beatles have such a strong back catalogue; Coldplay don’t. What Coldplay do have, however, is a few big festival anthems that millions of casual listeners will want to listen to. I’ve no compunction to own any Queen album outside of a Greatest Hits, and I’d be amazed if people are streaming any of their songs outside of four or five well-known tunes.
Conversely, I own nearly all of the Beatles’ back catalogue, and I’ve listened to it hundreds of times – why would I need to stream it? I don’t use YouTube much, but some songs by the Beatles and Stones have a comparatively low (I mean in comparison with, for example, Katy Perry) number of views. The records sold in their hundreds of millions, though – every household has them already.
Finally, let’s not kid ourselves: a lot of people have very bad taste. If my good lady declared herself to be a big Coldplay fan, I’d give serious consideration to our sleeping arrangements. If you think that’s snobbery, I really don’t mind, and I’ll leave you with this thought regarding the general public: I used to deliver work-based training in a variety of industries. As an icebreaker, I used to ask people about their favourite films, comedians, etc.. The overwhelming favourite comedian? Keith Lemon. I wanted to weep on a daily basis.
True, but I do think Spotify tells the whole story for younger generations. So the indication is that the Beatles and the Stones haven’t jumped generations in the same way as Queen and Fleetwood Mac have. But it’s definitely true that they’ve done it with just a few songs. I doubt many people have moved from Dreams or the Chain to Albatross for example.
My 30-something neighbours have a hot tub in their garden and a portable speaker, and he’s a big fan of ‘classic’ rock.
I was sitting in the shade of my back garden yesterday, enjoying a Magnum Classic, and heard “Alexa play Queen” followed by Under Pressure. Then “Alexa play Hot Space by Queen”. I went indoors.
…mmm… Magnum Classic…
Did she die in vain? Brave Hungarian peasant girl who forced King John to sign the pledge at Runnymede and close the boozers at half past ten! Is all this to be forgotten?
I think, after a certain point in time, the different bands will start to bleed into one (bleed into one) and myths will take over from precise fact. Decades will be represented by one song, musical genres by just one band, instrument developments (electric guitar, Hammond organ, synthesizer, sampler by one leading exponent. Everything else will be forgotten, or at best misremembered with only the colourful parts standing out. Cultural historians (i.e. pedants) may occasionally extract a fact from digital archives which disproves prevailing beliefs/narratives.
But ultimately it all decays to compost. like Hancock’s quote worming away at fact and producing the castings above.
@salwarpe
“Put that pen down, we know you’re in there, S!”
“Bleeding into one” – ti’s already happening (happened).
Most mass market 60s compilations deal with 62 to 66, the 70s is generally Glam Rock and/or Chinn/Chapman, and the 80s covers 1979 to 1984/5
Interesting that all 3 eras cover the early years of the decade, pre psychedelia/punk/house respectively. More digestible pop packages?
partly that, partly the kind of labels the punk and house lot were on I suspect
Yeah, let’s face it, he was unlikely to say “Alexa, play Tumhen Dillagi Bhool Jaani Padegi by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan”.
If only… I have to go indoors for that kind of thing.
@fentonsteve
This Magnum Classic…Was it “Soldier of the Line?”
Ba-dum and, indeed, tish!
Ithengyou.
P.S…and knew you’d recognise it though I can’t imagine you were much of a fan. I was!
It’s actually simple enough to check some of these data points.
2023 figures from the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry have roughly half of all music being consumed by streaming. Owned music comes in at just under 10% (that’s CDs, vinyl, paid downloads, etc). A surprisingly large amount of overall music consumption is via video streaming (YouTube et al) – 22%.
Streaming figures are a pretty fair way of determining what people are actually listening to and might in future listen to, particularly given that the figure for owned music is falling year-on-year, and that younger people are disproportionately likely to stream.
In terms of whether it’s just 4 or 5 songs for major acts, here are the top 15 streamed tracks for each of The Beatles, Coldplay and Queen, each with their overall volume of streams:
The Beatles – Total Aggregate Streams 16,682,779,594
Here Comes The Sun – 1,083,741,952
Come Together – 640,361,278
Let It Be – 591,783,094
Yesterday – 541,112,984
Hey Jude – 528,434,437
Twist And Shout – 396,026,545
Blackbird – 377,510,018
I Want To Hold Your Hand – 370,090,576
In My Life – 313,410,209
Help! – 280,947,903
Something – 268,408,273
While My Guitar Gently Weeps -230,277,706
Eleanor Rigby – 229,801,026
Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da – 220,961,429
Love Me Do – 207,064,318
Queen – Total Aggregate Streams 19,735,629,545
Bohemian Rhapsody – 2,242,493,946
Don’t Stop Me Now – 1,692,156,921
Another One Bites The Dust – 1,612,912,954
Under Pressure – 1,395,427,844
We Will Rock You – 1,110,799,951
Somebody To Love – 796,044,189
Killer Queen – 707,374,551
Crazy Little Thing Called Love – 663,636,688
We Are The Champions – 628,948,201
I Want To Break Free – 548,423,503
Radio Ga Ga – 492,782,923
Love Of My Life – 403,477,568
The Show Must Go On – 375,798,956
You’re My Best Friend – 294,527,016
Good Old-Fashioned Lover Boy – 273,360,467
Coldplay – Total Aggregate Streams 27,540,267,232
Something Just Like This – 2,255,022,359
Yellow – 1,831,566,134
Viva La Vida – 1,668,011,748
The Scientist – 1,647,300,831
Fix You – 1,260,671,125
A Sky Full of Stars – 1,214,591,092
Hymn for the Weekend – 1,203,956,890
My Universe – 1,100,438,249
Paradise – 1,091,410,110
Adventure of a Lifetime – 878,527,487
Clocks – 734,899,583
Sparks – 665,230,026
Magic – 653,099,184
Hymn for the Weekend – Seeb Remix – 632,709,323
Trouble – 314,000,874
As you can see, Coldplay have no fewer than 9 songs that have been listened to more than any Beatles song. Their 13th most popular song has more streams than The Beatles’ second most popular song. I don’t think this is a shallow catalogue being driven by only a handful of well known anthems – they’re just a massive, massive band who lots of people currently love.
I think what’s happening here is actually fairly natural. As acts age, their sound becomes more old fashioned and their appeal starts to gently wane. I’m sure it will happen to all these acts in time. It obviously doesn’t make them any worse, or lessen the value of their music for those who listen to it, it just means tastes change.
That’s some impressive research. Puts my original ‘where are they on the spotify most listened to charts’ to shame! One thing we can conclude is that Chris Martin must be stupidly rich, and getting richer every day.
One caveat is that I seem to remember the Beatles came late to streaming but that probably doesn’t make much difference to the overall picture.
I have to confess that I had never heard of about a third of those Coldplay tracks, but their success is fairly staggering. They’re a funny band, because I remember when Yellow first released (and the early EPs before that), the inkies and particularly the NME were quite behind them. That all changed with the second album when it became apparent that they might be in danger of doing well with the general public.
On the coming late to streaming thing, there are also figures for average daily streams. Come Together (the 2nd most popular Beatles song) streams a little over 300k times a day. Yellow is Coldplay’s second most popular song; it does 1.5m streams a day. Wild.
Quite liked the first couple of Coldplay albums. It was the third one and my agreeing to Mrs Jaygee’s urgings that we see them live that brought my budding bromance with Chris M to a rapid denouement
What Coldplay seem to have done better than anyone is cross over into the EDM style of things. A few years ago when I was still driving the children to school we used to listen to a Spanish chart station Hit FM (or Shit FM according to my daily hilarious dad joke). Something Just Like this and A Sky full of Stars were played constantly, endlessly. They have basically nothing in common with Yellow which I have a soft spot for. I wonder if it’s the same people listening to each?
Chris Martin met Avicii and saw a sky full of dollar signs.
Perhaps he took a pill in Ibiza to show Avicii he was cool and when he finally got sober felt ten years older (but fuck it, it was something to do).
Blimey, Bingo – that’s me told, ha! A very interesting set of stats, and I’m more than happy to stand corrected. For those of you who might be interested, here’s Bob Dylan’s streaming stats (top 15). I’m fairly staggered that Love Me Do streams more than every Dylan song, with the exception of the top two.
1. Knockin’ On Heaven’s Door
333,919,778
2. Like a Rolling Stone
310,014,127
3. The Times They Are A-Changin’
204,806,137
4. Hurricane
197,957,921
5. Blowin’ in the Wind
182,210,186
6. Girl from the North Country
147,520,992
7. Don’t Think Twice, It’s All Right
118,904,073
8. Mr. Tambourine Man
101,563,766
9. Tangled up in Blue
89,839,992
10. Lay, Lady, Lay
88,413,418
11. Shelter from the Storm
80,876,765
12. The Man in Me
57,923,262
13. I Want You
47,522,815
14. Subterranean Homesick Blues
45,366,793
15. All Along the Watchtower
32,989,050
No worries, I always find the streaming stats confound my own expectations; that’s one of the reasons I like looking at them.
If we want to really make the universe seem a confusing and lonely place – Drake has 72(!) songs that have been streamed more than ANY Bob Dylan song. Way2Sexy, his Right Said Fred cover, has been streamed more than Hey Jude. Feast your ears….
Another interesting observation (to me at least). Here’s the list of the top streaming songs of all time on Spotify. It’s a real mix of absolute gems and… uh… less enticing propositions.
https://kworb.net/spotify/songs.html
These are the songs in the top 100 that are more than 10 years old:
27 – Bohemian Rhapsody – Queen (1979)
42 – Can’t Hold Us – Macklemore & Ryan Lewis (2012)
58 – Lose Yourself – Eminem (2002)
61 – Mr Brightside – The Killers (2004)
68 – Yellow – Coldplay (2000)
83 – Wonderwall – Oasis (1995)
84 – Without Me – Eminem (2002)
87 – Smells Like Teen Spirit – Nirvana (1991)
96 – Don’t Stop Me Now – Queen (1975)
98 – In The End – Linkin Park (2001)
100 – Cold Heart – Elton John (1976)
Basically, it takes a bloody miracle for a song to stay at that level of popularity once it’s more than 20 years old, and Queen have incredible staying power. And Bohemian Rhapsody is an absolute bloody unicorn. If any song will outlive us all, it’s probably that one.
I knew I was out of touch but it’s kind of sobering to realise just *how* out of touch I am. And that’s with teenage children…
Talking of which, in my latest Hi-Res Download email is a new Right Said Fred compilation (featuring mainly re-recorded versions) entitled The Singles. Guess how many tracks it has? Erm… I’m Too Sexy, Don’t Talk Just Kiss, Deeply Dippy, erm… That’s right, twenty! All in 24-bit quality.
There’s absolutely no need for this kind of boasting, is there.
@fentonsteve
I thought they’d renamed themselves Far Right Said Fred following their political awakening during the pandemic
Just a thought but do you know what registers as a download. I wonder(ed) if 10 seconds and move on registers as a “stream”
Staggered to see Queen outplayed by Coldplay by almost 50% on the top 25 list. I thought Queen dominated the across the board mums and dads, grans and kids demographic. Fir the reasons noted above about taste, hipness etc being less of a factor than to many AWers. For similar reasons Beatles being close to Queen. Interesting but hey ho.
I think the usual threshold is 30 seconds to count as a stream of a song.
I do find it really interesting to see what people actually listen to. Given a few more decades (assuming people continue to consume en masse via streaming, which isn’t a given of course) this data would be really interesting in showing changing trends.
Thanks
As if by magic, this has appeared on the BBC News website today https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66781669
Coldplay are currently involved in a court case with a former manager, which means that it is now public knowledge that they’ve been paid a £34m advance for their next album. Absolutely massive band.
This sort of stuff is only important to the likes of us music nuts.
Something to keep in mind is that when someone streams a piece of music, once it’s finished playing, it’s gone. Possibly never to be streamed again by that person. When an album or an EP or a single is bought, whether on CD, vinyl, cassette or as a download, that piece of music is yours to play as often as you like or chuck away as unwanted.
Queen might be top of the Spotify charts currently and nowhere at all in a few years time, if their current popularity turns out to be just a fad.
It’s pop music and pop music is disposable. Elevate it and call it art if you want to. Even art can be, and often is, disposable.
Queen’s popularity has lasted for almost 50 years and shows no sign of flagging.
That’s some fad
If you look at the amounts of money investment companies like Hipgnosis and Blackstone have fronted up – $2.2bn and $1bn respectively – as a proxy for how songs will be seen over time, it’s clear that they think there’s huge potential. Universal, who own the rights to the Beatles and Taylor Swift’s music were valued at £38bn at their flotation back in 2021.
I think I may be a little out of step with the zeitgeist as having just had a quick gander at Tidal it seems I streamed Sparklehorse more than any other artist last month and so far this month Me Lost Me is playing a blinder. Looking back a few years I find that I have never streamed a single song from Coldplay, Queen or Fleetwood Mac. I am so unhip it’s a surprise my arse hasn’t fallen off.
Elton John’s Cold Heart had a reboot with Dua Lipa, queen of psychedelia, recently. A remix duet as it were. Hence the popularity.
Queen had that movie hit and songs like Don’t Stop Me Know have been performed endlessly in talent shows, instantly catchy. Perfect to soundtrack TV and film shows whenever the protaganist sees their fortunes rise. There’s people working tirelessly to stop us forgetting their act.
Of course for many of us this ubiquity and endless is just one big turn off.
I seem to recall Brian May saying Queen accept pretty much all adverts/tie-ins, as they keep the music current. I guess he has a point.
Elvis appears to have slipped out of view. I wonder that all the older guys with the slicked back hair and sideburns, their music doesn’t seem to have transited to a current audience.
IIRC, the price/value of Elvis collectibles started falling off a few years back
We had quite a lot of that stuff to sort through when my dad died. Even things he’d had sent from America. I was in Northallerton at the weekend and saw they had two Elvis statues on the High Street: it made me pause and think; should I have kept some of that junk.
Know what you mean.
That said, If we’d all hung on to our junk, it wouldn’t be worth anything.
Just saw a link to this article, changing tastes on Desert Island Discs.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/sep/11/nina-simone-gifted-black-and-desert-island-discs-most-selected-artist-in-2022
Thanks Hubert! That was excellent.