Strewth. Both of the main BBC channels are awash with blithering from Claire Balding, as the unlucky two are dragged uncomfortably before their cheering supplicants in a monstrous golden carriage. The bloke inside looks miserable while his chum just keeps on tapping at her hairsprayed bouffant lest it move a nanometric smidgen from its intended position. Her handbag is apparently carved from the timbers of H.M.S. Victory. Or something.
Any suggestions from iPlayer, or Netflix? It’s pissing down here so we aren’t keen on going out.
Ripping Yarns is on BBC 4 tonight (and the previous episodes on iPlayer)
If you have Apple TV+, then “Drops of God” is pretty good so far (about a wine legacy and based on a Japanese Manga series I believe).
Palin is almost as ubiquitous as Balding these days, but far better value in every sense. I’ve got the whole of Ripping Yarns on a boxed set of DVDs!
We’ll likely watch another of his slightly awkward Brit abroad programmes, aksherly. His return to seek out the dhow crew twenty years later on was pretty good to see again recently.
He just turned 80, sadly his wife died a few days ago
Oh I would love to see that – that dhow episode from Dubai was a joy.
Final season of Marvellous Mrs Maisel on Amazon Prime
Unfort. in a small act of rebellion at the fact that Jeff Bezos is such a bell-end, when they put the price up I cancelled my Prime sub. Thanks for the thought though. And I have no idea what that programme is about I’m afraid. Is it a children’s thing, like the BFG?
No, not a children’s thing
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marvelous_Mrs._Maisel
Agreed, we loved it.
The Brittas Empire is on UKTVPlay. I thought it very underrated at the time, and rewatching the first series it holds up well.
Thanks for the suggestion.
We have a Sony TV, which for some unfathomable reason doesn’t give us the option to watch UKTVPlay. The website just states that “Please note that UKTV Play is not available on YouView on Sony TVs”. No wonder kiddywinkles just watch their phones, televisions have eaten themselves.
Off the top of my head, and all on Netflix if you’ve got it:
The Diplomat – the always interesting Keri Russell as the new US ambassador to the UK. Crises and shenanigans ensue. Very good turn from Rory Kinnear as the sort of PM we don’t want but seem to end up with.
Stranger Things – if you haven’t heard of it by now, where have you been? Come for “Running Up That Hill”, stay for the monsters, mayhem, and very-well-done 80s vibe.
Rough Diamonds – an estranged son returns to his Orthodox Jewish family of diamond dealers and discovers things are not going well. He sets about fixing things, violently.
Also, on Sky Movies: Beast – Idris Elba punches a lion. Do you need any more explanation?
Until Netflix started losing cash hand over fist, I used to be a ‘Guest’ on my brother’s subscription. Sadly, after watching The Queens Gambit thereon, and thoroughly enjoying it, the effect of freeriding by Foxy Towers seems to have tipped the Netflix bean-counters over the edge, and the ‘Guest’ facility no longer works. Oh, hang on, it’s actually gone because my brother now uses his youngest daughter’s account to log on as a ‘Guest’ himself, and can no longer extend the option to me. Bottom line, then, is we are too abstemious to shell for Netflix ourselves. Cheers anyway.
Beast is ACE!
An up for The Diplomat – highly bingeable. An excellent turn too from Rufus Sewell as the untrustworthy husband. The way Brit actors keep getting plum parts as Americans must drive US actors nuts.
I am officially annoyed that Saturday Morning Kitchen wasn’t on.
I am officially delighted to have discovered that replying to every post in this thread is a far more entertaining and enlightening experience than watching the bloody Coronation on the idiot box. Thanks folks!
Surely that should read “We are effishelly ennoyed…”
No News Quiz on R4 at lunchtime, either, just some choir and organ dirge.
@fentonsteve
Strange time to be running a documentary about ELP
Ba boom tish 🥁
Bright sun, here in Bonn. They should have had the hat-fitting session in Hanover – it’s where they’re from, after all.
It’s started raining now. We don’t want your English exports!
Glorious in Ontario after a week of rain. The Coronation was televised but little interest here I think especially as it started at 4am.
I suppose on a day like today, some reign is inevitable.
Big Sam’s debut v Pep at 3pm is our big tv destination today
Oh yes, looking forward to this. Big Sam is up there with Pep and Klopp you know.
Half time team talk will show if Big Sam has anything to offer. I am not expecting anything.
To be fair, it’s a tricky place to go to…
But he does look out of place.
He looks like a fighty uncle at a wedding in that suit. He still looks less out of place than Bamford does on a football pitch though.
Arf!
Moral victory this if it stays at 2-0
I told my son a 3 nil defeat or better would be a good result.
We won the second half 1 nil…
Pep will go mental after that match – everyone had checked out at half
Time for the Tues match. Not what he wants at all.
Deffo a moral victory for your boys
@Leedsboy
Most successful England manager ever.
Show some respect and raise a pint of wine in the man’s honour at half time
Have you watched ‘Blue Lights’ yet? iPlayer, 6 part police drama set in Belfast. Much better than you might think. The 4th episode, ‘Full Moon’, is a masterpiece of TV writing/directing/performing – tense, witty, multi-layered…
Yes, we watched that over about a week or so – one episode a night until we got to the last two, which we watched one after the other, unable to wait another 24 hours. Brilliant series.
Another vote for BL here, Colin. Have you read Aidan McKinley’s Sean. Duffy books – RC cop in the RUC during the Troubles. Excellent stuff but sold so poorly he ended up having to bang out potboilers which sell shedloads
I have loved what I have seen, but it is a bit hardcore for Mrs F (she’s more of a Midsomer Murders kind of gal). We got about 10 minutes into Episode 3, when someone in a balaclava turns up… and Mrs F turned it over to Masterchef. Without spoilers, is it as violent as she feared?
Doesn’t Masterchef involve torture, ritual murder, butchery and the consumption of raw flesh?
Not Masterchef but on the Great british Menu it was once claimed that the chefs would be cooking their hearts out, which seemed a tad gross.
The unholy violence of that episode is part of setting out the context within which the story unfolds.
I have found that that line of argument cuts no ice whatsoever with violence refuseniks.
You could always tell them to go watch ‘Smell The Coffee’ with Alan Titchmarsh.
I’d always be open to hearing any proposals for a republic or further changes to our written, but not codified, constitution, which evolves all of the time. But I think one of the divides that this ceremony shows up is between people like me weren’t brought up in any religion, and those who were brought up in one, even if they are now lapsed, and who still have some feeling for this kind of thing.
There was the usual hymn and prayer mumbling at school assemblies, but my family weren’t religious at all, and the first time I went to a real religious ceremony was a church wedding when I was 27. How bizarre it all seemed, and still does. If that’s what people like, good for them, it’s just not for me. But all of those newspaper opinion pieces about how this coronation speaks to a need for public ceremony, ignore how alien all of this is to so many of us. Not politically, but as a ritual.
My upbringing was similar but I went away with my primary school on holiday for a week when I would have been about 10. On the Sunday, they took us all to church. If certainly
Never been to a church service before and the rituals seemed very odd. I was one of the ones told off for giggling!
The coronation was on the TV at home this morning and I heard some bits of it while I was trying to do something else. Even my wife, who was brought up as a churchgoer, thought lots of it was a bit bizarre. The bits I saw, bordered on the pathetic.
I do wonder if everyone involved thought it all made sense!
My daughter, age 19, said the clergy in their best robes looked like a cult, which is quite perceptive.
Isn’t that the correct term for religions anyway? When we got married in a Catholic church (not my choice but just another building to me) there was stuff about it being a cult in some of the bollocks they have us.
I despise the Catholic Church (not the religion, but the political institution). Why anyone opposed to child abuse, homophobia and misogyny would give it any sort of validation I find incomprehensible.
I think one could apply that to just about all organised religious institutions.
I find the C of E pretty pleasant in comparison.
Still at root homophobic and misogynistic. Just more politely so than the others.
I suppose the fact there’s debate and disagreement within the church on such issues is a slight positive.
In comparison maybe but still closed minded and in turn, manipulators of suggestive minds.
But the C of E doesn’t have the political power the Catholic Church has. Perhaps because it doesn’t have the numbers/wealth, or perhaps because it is less concerned with political issues. The fact that it accepts gay and female priests already raises it far higher in my estimation.
Still some way to go regarding female clergy.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/11/discrimination-against-women-church-of-england-women-priests
As regards the attitude to the gay community, they appear to be merely condescended to, where they are not discriminated against.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_the_Anglican_Communion#:~:text=In%202022%20at%20the%20Lambeth,ceremony%20for%20same%2Dsex%20couples.
The Church of England, along with all the other recognised religious groups, is exempted from the UK Equalities Act regarding employment.
But… the Vicar of Dibley! And the one out of The Communards!
Of all the Catholic Church’s evil doings (and there are many) the one that angers me most is their teaching children that homosexual sex is a sin. The late Micheal Apted’s fascinating series 7UP used to begin with the Jesuit motto: “Give me the child until he is seven and I will show you the man”. I believe there’s a lot of truth in that statement. Early childhood indoctrination is very powerful. It’s the basis of religion. (And football team support!) Indoctrinating children to make them believe their eventual natural sexual urges will lead them to eternal hell and damnation is sick. It is the cause of so many teen suicides and ruined lives. Even if the church manages to eliminate the child sex abuse by unnaturally celibate priests, they will continue with this unforgivable psychological abuse.
“The one out of The Communards”.
In April 2022, Richard Coles announced that he’d retired from parish duties due to the Church of England allegedly increasingly excluding gay couples, and what he described as its “conservative, punchy and fundamentalist” direction.
He hasn’t left the church, he just doesn’t want to be one of it’s parish priests any more.
As someone who has been alone his entire adult life I do not like this generalised argument which suggests priests become sex offenders because of celibacy. It would seem more logical that the priesthood, as a profession, attracts that sort, although that’s also an argument without enough evidence to generalise..
That’s a very good point, Sewer, and you’re absolutely right. It was lazy thinking on my part. Millions of people live happy, healthy lives without intimate relationships and it doesn’t turn them into child abusers.
Perhaps the reason that priesthood within the Catholic Church does seem to attract pedophiles is because it allows them to wear a cloak of respectability that both hides who they really are while at the same time allowing them access to and authority over children.
I wouldn’t give you pennies for the Church – of any denomination.
And a lot of them seem to attract those with questionable sexual tastes, and you hear about them, and you want to burn them all down.
And then you learn about people like this. Father Bob died recently. Apart from his taste in sports, he seems to have been exactly what the Church should be about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Maguire
It isn’t about sexuality; it isn’t about celibacy. It’s about what kind of person you are.
It shouldn’t be about sex/sexuality/celibacy – but the Catholic Church sure is fixated with it!
Many, many good works are carried out by Catholic priests and worshippers throughout the world, especially at grass roots level. But I can’t accept that that makes up for the appalling evils perpetuated. It’s like the people who highlight the positive achievements made by Mussolini and his fascists. Yeah, but…
My semi-regular response to mention the Quakers as a 3.5 century old religious institution, that had gender equality in place from the very start.
Or course, they don’t even have the numbers or the wealth of the C of E, let alone the Catholics…
S’funny how the basic Christian beliefs of Quakers and Catholics are, in theory, pretty similar. But the two churches are absolutely worlds apart.
I’m not sure that’s true at all. The Catholic church is one of the most credal, ritual-based, hierarchical, Saint recognizing, Holy Day holding churches there is. Quakers are non-credal, worship (mainly) in silence, have no hierarchy – indeed a priesthood of all believers, don’t raise individuals up as holy and pay little heed to the Christian calendar.
Exactly what I meant. Both churches believe in Christ and his teachings but that’s pretty much where any common ground.
Edit: What does “non-credal” mean? That you don’t believe in Christ? My computer says you’re Christans.
It’s not actually a requirement for Quakers to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christus, though pretty much all of them do.
That really depends on which branch of the Quakers you mix with, Mike.
Wait, Salwarpe, does that mean that the Quakers are like the People’s Front of Judaea?
see below, Si
answering here, because comment shrinkage…
The creed is a series of statements about Jesus that Catholics have to say and believe (all the mumbo jumbo about virgin birth and trinity and resurrection, etc).
The Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) is a testimonial church, which invites and advises members to testify in their lives to such values as truth, simplicity, equality, peace (and most recently) sustainability – (as witnessed in the life of Christ) as best as they can. Quakerism is a broad church (ha!) that encompasses all from evangelical pastoral to plain Quakers (think Amish) to liberal, sometimes non-theist. Best described as having its roots in protestant Christendom, it has evolved quite a lot over its history, but maintains the importance of ‘letting your lives speak’ whatever the strand or variant.
Ah, right, ta.
I don’t think the Quakers as a religious organisation have much wealth, but an odd thing about their members is that they are one of the most financially successful minority groups in Britain. Ages ago when I was studying economics, one of the questions was why certain minorities succeeded more than others. One of the standard answers was that they are often immigrants or refugees, so it is sink or swim. But one of the studies was on the Quakers, who were entirely English, and it was chosen to see what other factors there were. They seemed to be a high regard for education (so you can read the bible yourself), exclusion from traditional professions so they went into the new open ones like banking and industry, and networks based round their places of worship, so if they moved to a new place they could find contacts to help them quickly, and above all, a belief in work as a virtue. This would apply to some of the other groups, such as the Parsees in India There’s probably more to it than that, and later research may well have contradicted it, but I think there is something there.
Bigger demand for chocolate in those days?
Interesting to read, David – and I think there is a lot in what you say there. Most of the Quaker money (Barclays, Lloyds, Rowntree, Cadbury, Clarks) has, I think migrated with the families away from its Quaker roots, though there are still some trust funds still in existence, the various Joseph Rowntree Trusts still having an impact. Quakers are certainly a much less wealthy church than they were when strongly represented in the banking industry (bankrolling the early days of the railways, for example).
As non-conformists, they were in earlier centuries excluded from university and traditional professions, so did go more into commerce. Apart from being an insular group (it was quite common to be disowned for marrying outside ‘the Society’ at one point), which encouraged mutual support, there was one other thing in their favour – their integrity in business which built up trust in the client base. They refused to barter and set a standard price, so people knew where they stood with them, and they would never overcharge for dodgy goods.
Chocolate was an area Quakers moved into as part of the temperance movement, providing an attractive alternative to alcohol. Bournville was famous for many years for not having a pub within its boundaries.
As a whipper-snapper, when going out and about for the evening with my pals, I often wondered why there was no pub or off-licence within a short distance of my parents’ house. I later discovered that the parcel of land upon which the streets that contained my home and that of most of my friends had been sold to the council at the end of the 19th century with the caveat that no alcohol should be sold within its boundaries. It was likely a Methodist or Quaker thing that had denied me easy access to a quart bottle of cider on the way to gigs in the city centre. So although I consider religion in general to be a curse upon humanity, it was probably responsible for ensuring that I made it to countless gigs still sober enough to be allowed to pass within.
Answer to @sitheref2409 here to avoid thread shrinkage:
Yes, in some ways, and over a turbulent period in 19th century USA, Quakers were very much like like a slowburn version of the People’s Front of Judaea. There were fights in Quaker Meeting Houses at particularly virulent moments. Here’s a flowchart
And here’s a link to a text explaining some of those terms. I think it’s kind of inevitable in any movement without a central authority, although even those with clear hierarchies – like the Catholic church and Islam – have schisms, divided sects and breakaway groups.
Apple TV has some cracking stuff on. Ted Lasso, Shrinking, Slow Horses, Bad Sisters for starters. Perfect time to do the free trial.
I watched the whole Coronation on the BBC and it was marvellous.
I watched the whole of Marvellous on Netflix and it was as billed.
Citadel on Amazon Prime is also worth a look.
When William kissed his father I thought, hmm…Michael Corleone.
With tongues?
Only for those who belong to the ancient order of the tongue. Like me.
You’re not, by any chance, one of the Norfolk Farquars are you, D?
Re the o.p.? No.
Easy enough to avoid whatever it is that is taking up regular telly. If it’s a screen based entertainment you need, YouTube, DVDs, streamed channels have endless content. I see whatever it is that others get excited about as just the Crufts/ Wimbledon/ Olympics/ World Cup for folks with whom i dont share tastes. This is why i have enough AV content to see me through to my death already. In newspapers, you just jump past the first 10 pages with a “oh, so that’s happening”. It’ll soon be past news. We’ll have our moment when Mick Jagger/ Bob Dylan/ Macca/ Stevie Wonder/ Shane McGowan buy the farm, and some of these will be pretty big news.
There was a lovely walk to be had in the Shropshire hills. The rain ran the gamut from spots to heavy drizzle, but it was still a good way to spend the day – lots of delicate blossom and bluebells. Unfortunately, the slutch I tramped through on the edge of Caer Caradoc proved, in the confines of the return train, to be offensively pungent. Hey ho.
Vyrnwy mud, thick, grey and sticky, takes some beating for pong too.
Two Rugby matches, Paul Temple, Tony Hancock, and an excellent documentary on BBC Radio Four Extra on Mudlarking have seen me through… but, then, I do have form in completely avoiding decades, let alone individual events.
The one bit of the coverage I did see was in a pub in Cornwall, all decked out in red, white and blue – but not in that forelock tugging way as, next to the screen, was a poster of Anarchy in the UK… it was adorned with streamers, bunting etc. and actually made me think (slightly) better of the whole thing.
Footnote – Bought the Red Album on CD in a chazzer today.
In 1993 it was on the market for £32.
I paid 99p 30 years later!
Moral, do the opposite.
I watched the whole thing, and thought it was very well done, if too long, and the bit in the abbey did get a little, well, boring after a while. But the preparation that must have gone into it was clearly extraordinarily detailed, and the precision on display was very impressive and actually quite moving.
However, am I alone in thinking that Chas looked quite unwell? Every time he closed his eyes (which did seem to happen a lot), I wondered if he might collapse. Granted, it’s probably a weird time for him – at the very least, how often are you anointed with oil as the whole world watches?
But wasn’t the secret bit the whole anointing with oil?
Behind screens so we didn’t see it.
“Anoint my head,
Anointy-nointy.”
With added nointy.
I should have said:
“‘anointed with oil’ while the whole world goes ‘What IS going on behind those screens?'”
The general opinion on Twitter is that he was having a pee. Well, he is 74 and hadn’t been since he left the Palace.
Behind that screen is where they put the big bucket. Some of those clergy are knocking on a bit too. The music drowns out the trickling/splashing sounds.
I like Charles more than the Queen because I think he is more open to change than his mother.
The highlight for me was the palaver before he actually got his crown on. Each item presented to him had a solemn significance along the lines of “the Ancient Toaster of Swanage was famously used by Henry IV. The Chancellor of the Royal Kioper presents this to the new monarch by walking backwards towards the throne and going ooh-ooh like a gorilla.”.
Penny Mordaunt was the undoubted star of that sequence. Dressed like a Star Wars councillor and carried the be-jewelled Excalibur aloft for much longer than most of us could:. Twitter says that this part in the Coronation comes with her role as Leader of the House of Commons. This job was given to her by Liz Truss to get her out of the way. Another ace move by Truss because the resulting exposure has catapulted Mordaunt right up there.
I have read also that if the coronation was 18 months ago – Mordaunt’s bit would have been done by Jacob Rees-Mogg.
I loved the way Anne utterly humiliated her errant nephew, Harold,
by obscuring him with the absurdly large hat she ordered the day
She saw the seating plan
I’ll just leave this here
We had to learn this at school:
Willie, Willie, Harry Steve
Harry, Dick , John, Harry 3
I,2,3 Neds, Richard 2
Harrys 4,5,6, then who?
Edwards 4,5, Dick the Bad
Harrys twain. then Ned the lad
Mary, Bessie, James the Vain
Charlie, Charlie, James again
William and Mary, Anne Gloria
4 German Georges, Bill, then Victoria
Edward 7th till 1910, George, Ned, then George again
And now it’s Lizzie, until when?
And when Liz goes, it’s Charles again.
For some reason, it wouldn’t stick with me. But then somehow it got through and I can’t forget it.
I overheard something on the wireless about the crown, orb and sceptre in the palace. For an old fella, that’s not a bad playlist.
The Crown – I hope they went with the (10+ minute) 12″ mix featuring Stevie Wonder.
The Orb. Little Fluffy Clouds were in short supply yesterday.
Skepta – Shutdown
We watched the whole thing yesterday from about 10, popping out to make toast, have a guitar break, reread the absolute kicking the Tories got in the local elections, read the often hilarious comments on Twitter etc. It’s all ridiculous of course but a good show (not overthinking it). Some absurd hyperbole from commentators who were unable to speak as they were overcome by emotion when the guards shouted “God save the King” etc. And then it was over and we got on with Saturday.
Penny M was every bit as magnificent as everyone said (one twitter comment was “Who is the sword lady?”). Shame every time she opens her mouth utter rubbish comes out.
I was instinctively outraged at the heavy-handed police response to the protesters, though TBH it would have been beyond tedious if some twat was shouting the odds through a megaphone throughout the proceedings.
I like Penny Mordaunt. She’s good at thinking on her feet and she has a wicked sense of humour. She can be very funny. Of course, she talks bollocks, but so do all politicians and she does it better than most. At one point, I was nervous she might become PM. Then, there’d be a real danger I’d forget myself in the ballot box and vote Tory.
Sadly, my spell checked hasn’t heard of her! 😵
Yes I broadly agree with that. She has an interesting back story and is pretty socially liberal, then ruins it by spouting fluent Brexit bollocks.
By “back story” do you mean claims about her service that many informed observers have called….bollocks?
Like wearing Submariner’s dolphins?
She’s a lair who hasn’t been called to account yet.
Then the Lady of the Lake returns to her watery abode.
She could have been our Prime Merminister.
This from a New Statesman columnist…
If Penny Mordaunt made you need to stand on some cold lino, I’d slip,some bromide in your tea before watching Katy Perry.
“There’d be a real danger I’d forget myself in the ballot box”
That’s why they have curtains in the voting booths, Tig.
*We’ve all got to pull our weight, in Moose’s (hopefully temporary) absence.
That’s one type of spoiled ballot that no one wants to inspect.
Did anyone watch the Windsor concert? I’ve been working today, got home about 10.45 and there seems to be lots of backslapping about it but there was nothing on the bill that would have made me consider watching it. I realise it’s for a mass audience rather than a corner of the internet but even so, it seemed pretty bland, based on the line up.
It’s on later, so I might give it a glance, especially if they do clever pictures with those drones again.
The music doesn’t last song – so even if it’s someone I don’t like much they’re off before I know it.
I thought it was great. Yes, very middle-of-the-road performers, but that’s what you expect at this sort of gig that has to cover a lot of bases without scaring the horses, and nobody let the side down.
But the production of it was almost flawless (there was some sort of hitch/delay with James Nesbit), and lots of it was very moving: the Coronation Choir, the Commonwealth singing with Steve Winwood, the Royal collaboration mixing Shakespeare and Somewhere, the trip to locations across the UK, the mass arm waving to Take That (didn’t like the songs, but the That can whip up a crowd).
And special praise and/or honours must go to the light crew responsible for the projections onto the castle and the drones turning into lions, rabbits, etc. Just genius, and very effective. Bravo, I say, bravo.
I should have said, the backslapping was about the technical side of the show.
Just skimmed some of it. The drones are the stars really but it all looked fabulous. Why was Katy Perry dressed as the Penny Toffee from Quality Street?
Do you mean like this?
Ah, sponsored by Nestle
Steve Winwood playing Dear Mr Fantasy would have been a good encore.
He’s part of the family isn’t he? His daughter is married to Camilla’s nephew. This and Karl Jenkins at the Abbey were not things you would’ve predicted as you played your Traffic and Soft Machine albums in the seventies.
Karl Jenkins had been a writer of Christian devotional music for quite a few years. Well connected with the top C of E clergy by now, I imagine.
On a whim I decided to watch Search Party on the BBC iPlayer.
Dorky put-upon girl persuades her vacuous friends to join her solving the mysterious disappearance of someone dorkygirl only vaguely knew at college. Short episodes, 10 to a series.
I almost gave up at the start, because most of the characters were so unpleasant, but I persevered and got sucked into it despite my misgivings.
Finished the first series. It takes a very dark turn at the end due to people adding two and two together and making quite a bit more than four. Something I’d suspected all along turned out to be at least partially true.
There are 5 series of it available to watch. I’ll have to watch some more now, to see how they get on after the shock ending to S1.
@Mike-H
Had pretty much identical feelings re Search Party myself but perserved
and enjoyed it greatly – well the first series
Be warned, the series falls off a cliff during S4 and S5 is a completely different show.
Anyone catch last night’s Inside No 9?
One of the best yet.
Won’t say too much so as not to ruin the fun