As I’m gradually winding down to retirement, I’m looking forward to watching Everton home and away and becoming a Labour Party activist again. I’m almost ashamed to admit it, but in the seventies I sang The Red Flag lustily. Speaking of lust, I thoroughly appreciated my wonderful female fellow activists who cheerfully lived by the Marxist principle “from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs”*. I had a lot of needs in those days. However, It will be forty years since I last understood what was Politically Correct and am desperately in need of an update.
More specifically, how do I talk to lefty women, most likely feminists**, without causing offence? Recently, there have two threads that upset my equilibrium. One featured that charming old lawyer (roughly my age) complimenting a young up & coming solicitor (roughly my daughter’s age) with the sexist adjective “stunning”. The second was full of profanity, the most powerful of which was a term for a vagina. All the masculine ones were far less effective and possibly a compliment.
As a result, I am increasingly wary of using adjectives, which, surreptitiously, have a developed their own gender. For example, when did you last use “feisty” other than to describe a human female? Or a horse?
Indeed, is it ever appropriate to say something nice to a woman without being spoken to first? Only, the other night, I was making a purchase in my local wine merchant (ponce-y gin and ponce-y tonic, since you ask). I noticed a young lady behind me in the queue with resplendent curly hair, tightened with great care. I whisked my cap off to reveal my shiny pate and said, “I’ve always been envious of people with lots of hair but yours is especially beautiful.” She had the grace to say thank you, but as I stumbled off slightly embarrassed, the man on the till said, “That was brave” as though I had risked being labelled a pervy old man.
I fear I may make a monumental faux pas during my first local party meeting. Will Angela Eagles be pleased if I exclaim, “Good heavens! Those dungarees make your bum look sumptuous!”?
Please help an old man learn how to talk to modern women. Otherwise, I’ll just have to keep my gob shut.
* Actually, Marx used the masculine pronoun. I’ve updated him with a fashionably more fluid option.
** Come to think of it, is the term “feminist” an acceptable descriptor these days?
“Nice buns luv” always works for me.
Only in a bakery though.
I know what you mean. Those baker’s are particularly attractive in their white tops and their clouds of flour.
Apologies for the stray apostrophe.
Gob shut is a good bet. Or purely factual demands like answering what time is it etc. Someone (female) circulated a meme on Facebook complaining about “mansplaining” which apparently is that we gratuitously explain things on an unqualified and uninvited basis, the essence of which was we should STFU unless spoken to. Hence, gob shut is a good strategy. Anything else will get you in trouble.
I liked the recent suggestion that Ryan Adams had mansplained 1989.
‘Mansplaining’ is very different to giving compliments and/or just talking to someone. If that’s what’s being asked here.
I love giving women compliments and if they don’t like them that’s fine – no harm is meant and if I can brighten someones day why wouldn’t I want to do that? The modern World is a sad place if we have to analyse why someone says something nice to someone else. No hidden agenda from me.
Lefty women? Gob completely shut. Eyes totally averted. No ‘compliments” whatsoever. Check your male white privilege at the door. Otherwise, you’ll be charged with ‘sexual assault’.
I object to your passive aggressive sexism you MCP. Get ye to a awareness raising workshop.
Sounds good to me. When’s the next Awareness Raising Workshop? I need one.
I think you can distinguish between compliments on aesthetic grounds (‘beautiful hair’) and lechery (‘Nice arse’). Although where does one stop and the other one begin? If you framed ‘nice arse’ in terms of: ‘You have a perfect waist-to-hip ratio in line with the Golden Ratio and therefore science deems you attractive’ you have moved into the realm of aesthetics and physics so might probably be OK.
I jest, of course. I have no idea. Really.
But ‘feminist’ is fine by me but one needs several essays to understand what it means. 😀
Most of it’s got to be common sense, right? You do the best job you can of putting yourself in the other person’s position, then speak to them the way you would like to be spoken to. Remember that if another is offended, it’s hardly automatically your fault. Their tetchiness is not your responsibility. Don’t underestimate your own good faith, even if others might.
More seriously.
How would you talk to your male friends? About politics, cricket, football, books, music, telly, films, funny observations about daily life? Same thing.
Compliments are fine. Lechery/perving is different. We all know the difference.
yes, talk about the same stuff. But speak slower and do the BIG PRINT version.
(inserts sarcastic, pretend male chauvinist, smiley thing)
Oh you are so right darlin’. Bless your beautiful blue eyes…Aren’t Ladies lovely, eh?
What?
We’re just not that different to you. Really.
I am a ‘lefty woman’. I have quite a few close male friends, some are even *gasp* right-wing. We talk about politics, books, music, sex , drugs and rock’n roll. They might occasionally say, ‘nice shoes’. Or, ‘I like your new haircut’. I might occasionally say, ‘nice shirt’, or ‘oooh! New beard!’
It’s fine, it seems to work.
I compliment my male friends on their new haircut, new shirt, aesthetic arse all the time. I even have no qualms pointing out errors of judgement or physical failings (“I’m sorry, that shirt does nothing for your pecs,” “You don’t suit that colour,” or “Your gut is getting huge,”) I can’t do any of that with women.
I do
How do you get away with it? I can’t actually see all of your face but the half I can looks pretty intact to me.
I only say it to people around my age. I work at a Uni with lots of students less than half my age – comments in that case would be inappropriate I think. But if a colleague has a nice new hairstyle or get up I tell them or say they are looking glamorous or something. Why not? I’d like it if someone told me I was looking good…it never happens BTW 🙁
Hmm. Do you compliment the aesthetics of the female arse, though? And how about negatives?
Oh I never touch on that. Fnar, fnar.
Can I be the first to say: BigJimBob, you’re looking really glamorous today.
*removes shoe, hits self on head, pants, loosens tie, etc*
ooowwwee {blush} why thank youooo BL
Yes, common sense, as Ivylander says above. Unsolicited compliments from strangers in the street and/or off-licence is pretty much a no-no, but it sort of depends on who’s handing out the compliment.
The C Proudman affair being a case in point. Complimenting her on her picture was not in itself a wrong thing to do. Complimenting her on her picture in those specific circumstances was.
It’s this, isn’t it?
Women are people. They’re mysterious, but they’re not THAT flipping mysterious.
If you’re worried, just keep it general and not too gender specific: it’s pretty hard to be offended by a polite “you look great”, outside a work context.
In fact, here’s a good test: imagine your wife (fictional, if you’re unmarried) hearing you give the compliment to the other woman. If she’d be OK with it then you’re on pretty safe ground.
Failing that, you could always try an old mate of mine’s winning chat up line – he’d sidle over to the “lucky” target, look them in the eyes and ask the immortal question: “sorry to interrupt your evening, but I had to ask; are you as naughty as you look?”. It had a surprisingly high hit rate, although it’s probably not a great idea in the office.
Good rule about the “imagined wife”. I’ll apply that one.
Another good tip: just avoid words entirely. Stare at them, remove one of your shoes and hit yourself on the top of the head repeatedly with it while panting and loosening your tie.
Howling like a wolf – optional?
Or rubbing one’s thighs.
Can someone please post the Tex Avery cartoon where the urbane city wolf takes his rube country cousin wolf to a swanky nightclub? Howlingly funny.
This is all I could find on the youtubes:
This is the one you mean; I’m sure there’s a slightly longer one with more dance routines |(girls, cutesy), but you get he idea – and the fab “randy wolf” bit, of course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXcWQrhzlMU
Not the one I’m looking for, though very similar scene. The sophisticated wolf takes the hick to the club and the bumpkin humiliates his cousin by going demented at the sight of the singer.
Ok, Poppy. I’m cool with that; no unsolicited compliments. That does beg the question: when is a compliment solicited?
Hey Tigger, do I look hot in this apron?
*drools*
A compliment is ‘solicited’ when the complimenter is young, good-looking and has a fit body. Otherwise, it’s sexual harassment.
Never, ever, ever compliment women using Kanye lyrics, Tigger. That’s my number one tip.
You mean don’t tell them you’d like to bend them over a sink and have your way with them? It’s PC gorn maaaaaaad!!!!!
“… and do the washing up while you’re there love”
I’m struggling here, Bingo. I can’t think of a single occasion when Kanye actually compliments a lady.
Does “I’ll do anything for a blonde dyke” not count?
Women love a GSOH, or so I’m told. Tell them about your extensive collection of thug-life rap CDs. That’ll have them in stitches.
They’ll laugh themselves silly about any of my extensive collection of CDs.
well I know *exactly* what women want ‘cos I have an extensive, cross-referenced, library of porn. Like, ferinstance, did you know they like plumbers? a lot.
Honestly? Just come out with a load of old shit about how heartbreaking the refugee crisis is, and that it’s totally unbelievable that Britain has only taken in 500 Syrians. That’ll do the trick. You could then add something about how few refugees are really in Calais, and that the real problem is not refugees but a lack of social housing and greed. They’ll be eating out of your hand after that. Basically a shortcut to their knickers*
* Sorry, I’m assuming that’s the point, right?
Actually, the thrust of the OP illustrates that I’m well past being able cut to anyone’s knickers.
There’s nothing wrong with the old-fashioned gentlemanly approach:
About time you posted a clip from the master of charm.
Wise words from Poppy there. Unsolicited compliments to a complete stranger really are pushing your luck. But if it’s someone who you are used to speaking to anyway e.g. librarian, shop assistant, vet, taxidermist etc and you compliment them on something, then I suspect they’ll be charmed.
I have to say that I reject the whole idea behind this thread. Anyone who isn’t charmed by your articulate enthusiasm and constant, infectious curiosity probably isn’t worth talking to anyway.
Done that before without a slap or a “fuck off”, in fact they said “thanks”. I just told someone they looked really cool. I mean I walked on so it was obv I wasn’t hitting on them or anything.
Ooh! You little minx.
*blushes*
I said something nice to a taxidermist recently, but she told me to get stuffed.
Simple praise always works, acknowledging the spunkiness shown in going the extra length in the cause.
That’s disgraceful! You are sooooo rude!
I have been working for over 30 years and it’s never been OK to comment on someone’s appearance, unless they invite you to. They are not on the pull – they’re at work. I’d say that goes for voluntary organisations too.
I know that there’s that Mediterranean thing of vocally appreciating a beautiful girl as she walks by. That seems harmless, natural and sometimes charming and funny. But not at work.
I’m guessing a local Labour Party meeting is voluntary work.
This is the rub though, isn’t it. I would like to be able to pay someone a compliment, without it implying I’m on the pull.
If that’s what you’re after then only give women compliments you’d also give a man – as has been alluded to above.
You’d tell another man that they look well or that their shoes are cool. You probably wouldn’t tell them their arse looks great in that pair of jeans.
It’s the Pulp Fiction “footrubs” theory, applied to compliments.
Well, I would tell them their arse looks great.
Probably best to avoid comments on secondary sexual characteristics, then.
Those last 2 paras nail it imo, BL. Well said.
Good grief.
Cripes!
As one now past retirement age a great pleasure is that it is now for me possible to praise how a woman looks without much fear it will be taken as some feeble attempt to ‘chat up’ . Unless of course the woman unfathomably fancies an elderly gentleman now losing his hair in inverse proportion to the expansion of his stomach….
That is very true, Hen. I too can now flirt gently with beautiful young women in a way I could never have done before.
But we need to be careful! I don’t doubt there are some kinky lasses out there who are really into ancient, portly, balding gentlemen.
“What did you say, nurse? Time for my meds?”
No, this isn’t true. Women (God, *people* ) do like to be complimented, but it depends on the circumstances.
Best thing, play safe. If someone’s lost weight / got a tan / evidently refreshed their wardrobe then they’ll really appreciate you noticing, and a simple, ‘You’re looking very well!’ will work wonders.
Sorry, henpetsgi, this wasn’t meant as a reply to your post, but one further up!
Earlier this week I spent 24 hours in the company of a woman half my age. It’s important to see the other person’s perspective in these cases. From my point of view it was two equal colleagues going on a business trip. From hers, it was probably more like I was Young Mr Grace from Are You Being Served and she was the nurse.
We had a bottle of wine over dinner and I was worried that she be worried that I’d get pissed and try to hit on her. Equally I was terrified that I actually would get pissed and try to hit on her. So basically I was a mess of preconceptions and presumptions and she was probably just sitting there wondering when this boring old geezer would get tired and go to bed.
I suppose I could have said, “Look, let’s have some wine but I’m not trying to get you drunk and I won’t be telling you that my wife doesn’t understand me or following you back to your room like some priapic puppy” but that would have made the whole evening awkward. And it would have completely ruined my chances, too.
It’s a minefield!
*applause* @chiz
Another comment that hits the nail on the head Poppy.
Reading this thread makes me yet again curse the idiots who thought that single sex schools were a good idea.
I went to one and am now delighted to see my kids at co-educational schools. As a 12 year old, my son avoids girls like the plague at the moment. But he has to inter-react with them in class anyway. He won’t grow up thinking that the female sex is from another planet.
It all starts in childhood, doesn’t it. I enter to an all boys school too.
Please replace the word ‘enter’ with the word ‘went’. My predictive speller is set to innuendo.
I don’t understand this thread. I’m as old as any of you if not older, and in my daily comings and goings, at work or play I have over the decades encountered women of all ages, these days invariably younger than me. Thousands of them. We have amiable conversations if necessary or appropriate, about this or that, work-related or nice day related, and it never ever occurs to me to pay them compliments or worry whether I should be paying them compliments or not. I really don’t think they need me to pay them compliments and I don’t think they’re expecting it. If I know someone well (of either sex) I might tell them they’ve lost weight, if they actually have, but otherwise I don’t think it’s my role in life to pay other human beings compliments. I honestly don’t think my life is any the poorer for it. Or have I missed the point again?
I don’t think you have missed the point @mikethep . I think you are spot on. Your experience seems to be similar to mine.
The trouble is I have no qualms commenting on men’s appearance, whether complimentary or not.
I’m rapidly reaching the conclusion that, when it comes to women, I should simply keep my thoughts in my head. I find it easy enough to contain the negatives. Perhaps, I should do the same with men.
Count me in that too Mike. It’s all very confusing. Remember the days when we used to doff our hats as a pretty young filly passed us in the street?
You wore a hat? Decisive proof that you were a ne’er-do-well rascal!
In situations like this I always thinks it’s best to picture Diane Abbot at last week’s Labour conference and then ask myself, “What would Jeremy do?”
Jesus. You’re clearly overthinking this “problem”.
The difference between receiving a friendly casual compliment and a come-on is made very clear by the tone of voice, body language and the looks being given.
Just don’t lower your voice to a seductive purr, avoid making suggestive hand movements and don’t stare at any specific body part (unless it’s her hair, possibly) or look her up and down like a starving man studying the menu, and no offence will be taken.
If you want make absolutely sure that she won’t get the wrong end of the stick (and BTW, keep the stick where it belongs please), preface the compliment with a jolly “Don’t take this the wrong way, but…”
And some people are just uncomfortable receiving compliments, from anyone. Unless you’ve behaved the way described above, that’s not your fault, and shouldn’t stop you from giving compliments to everyone else that deserves one.
“to”
(Place in appropriate spot in my post)
Thank you, Locust. That was very clear.
Some good advice here…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89RwsGe-fSw
Couple of apposite lyrics:-
‘your ballroom days are over baby’
‘you’re invisible now, you got no secrets to conceal’
Awareness Raising Workshop
TMFTL
I can’t help thinking that being *this* conscious about the whole thing might suggest that there is actually an underlying motive. It almost feels less like “how can I avoid offence?” and more like “how can I get my lines in under the radar?” Perhaps a particular younger woman in mind? Nothing wrong with that, of course: age-gap relationships (and hookups) are perfectly common.
Because otherwise, the answer’s just “talk to people of both sexes as if they were normal people”, isn’t it?
(Actually, come to that, that’s the answer to “how can I make her like me?” too. Lines, schmines. People just like being treated with kindness, interest and humour – and if you fancy someone, and have got to know them, tell ’em so.)
Sadly, there’s no particular woman in mind. I just have a desire to treat both sexes the same and I feel I have to bite my tongue with one of them.
Sorry, I take that post back. Rude of me, and proof that just because a thought fleetingly occurs, it doesn’t mean you should express it. Sorry Tigger.
No need to apologise. The OP and thread is all about treading that fine line between paying a simple compliment and hitting on someone. It isn’t simple at all.
Here are some things that have been said to me in the past, and whether I felt OK about them or not, if that helps.
1) “Those are gorgeous shoes” (OK)
2) “Wow, you’ve lost a lot of weight, your husband must be delighted!” (not OK)
3) “You’ve got really nice tits!” (I know, but it’s not OK for strangers to point this out)
4) “How do you know so much about sc-fi? You’re a woman!” (I didn’t mind this one as I was amused, but it did make me think that the person uttering it was a fossil)
5) “But you’re a woman! How do you know so much about music?” (Ditto)
6) Man having a wank while sat next to me on a train (not OK)
Can we get a second opinion on number 6, please? Feels like Political Correctness Gone Mad to me.
You didn’t see no.6 as a compliment, then?
Unless he didn’t say “please” when he asked Hannah for a tissue or committed some other social faux pas, I can’t understand her negative reaction. After all, compliments are so easy to spout, whether they are honestly meant or merely empty words. It’s by his deeds that a man’s true feelings should be judged.
Is number 2 OK if the ‘your husband must be delighted’ bit is deleted?
Commenting on anyone’s weight is such a total minefield. There are easier ways to pay a compliment.
Good point
“You don’t sweat much for a fat lass”. Will that do?
Oh god. A mate’s brother came up to me at a disco in the early 90s, and commented on how much I sweated, but not to worry because “some men find that attractive”. I’d forgotten until just now.
Yes. I’m always happy for people to tell me I look great, but there’s no reason to make any specific reference to my weight. Especially because it wasn’t even coming from a very close friend, it was from an acquaintance (who also hadn’t realised that I’d split up with my husband). It was all a bit buttock-clenching.
NOT YOU! I would not refer to you in such a manner. You are perfectly gorgeous.
*strokes imaginary handlebar moustache*
I don’t trust people who point at my (tiny) beer belly and ask “when is the baby due?”
Just don’t pull out the linings of your trouser pockets, grab the top of your zip and say “do you want to see my elephant impression?”
Unless you are Gary Barlow, Matt Damon or other flavoursome chap of the moment.
Not so long ago I was in a lift with a work colleague and a young woman. He spoke to her, complimenting her on her shoes.
She was young enough to be his granddaughter.
She got out on a floor below ours and after she’d gone he said to me that it was always useful to keep up his flirting skills.
It didn’t come across to me as flirting. It just seemed creepy. I’ve no idea what she thought, but ‘d guess she thought it closer to creepy than to flirting.
Hmmm. That’s what I’m getting at. It no longer seems possible for an older man to say anything to a young without coming across as being creepy.
Mind you, I was in the chippy the other night. Two young women were serving, one younger and slimmer than the other. An older bloke was cooking chips. I think he was Turkish. Finally, a young-ish man was sorting the kebabs.
After paying, another customer said loudly so that everyone could hear, “I’ve got say all the staff have great eyebrows. All four of you!”
He got a good laugh but he was right. They all had amazing eyebrows.
So long as he didn’t ask them to batter his gherkin…
Indeed.
And there is a ‘woman’ missing from my first paragraph.