I think there are a few AW geezers who might be able to help me out here.
I’m doing some research into upgrading the equipment in our little band. I’ve already decided on a Yamaha Stagepas, 400 or 600 tbc. Our current brick has only 4 inputs and doesn’t have phantom power, whereas the Yamaha has 8 and does.
Which brings me on to condenser mics. We’re currently using 5 (count’em) dynamic mics variously going into the PA and a Spark Edge. 5 mics plus stands plus leads are a pain in the arse, given the small spaces we usually play in. A couple of condenser mics would massively simplify things.
I’d set my heart on a couple of EarTrumpet Delphinas because they’re cool and sound great. But besides being eye-wateringly expensive, the email I got from EarTrumpet, while of course strongly recommending I buy them, entering so many caveats about feedback and such that I’ve backed away.
So here (finally) is the question. Can anybody recommend a couple of condenser mics that would handle sharing 4/5 vocals and aren’t too fussy or expensive? Rode and AKG have been mentioned, but a lot of reviews concentrate on studio work and podcasts rather than live work, and I don’t really know where to go from here.
Any advice greatly appreciated.
————> bump
Short answer is: I wouldn’t use condenser mics in a live* environment.
If you want good-sounding live mics, I’d suggest the Shure Beta range. They’re a lot less muffled-sounding than the classic SM58 but have a hypercardioid polar pattern (meaning you have to be straight on them to get the best out, but feedback is pretty much eliminated).
You know how with a dynamic mic, if you bump the stand with a foot or a headstock, you get a loud thump through the PA? Bump a condenser mic and you get the sound of a wild thunderstorm, and if you’re lucky it doesn’t stop working and/or self-destruct.
(*) condenser mics work well as drum overheads for a bit of extra sparkle from the cymbals.
You sound like you speak from experience. But I keep seeing YouTube vids of string bands and the like with two or three vocalists gathered round a condenser mic. What’s happening there?
What I’m trying to do is simplify our lives. We’ve already got five adequate Shure and/or Sennheiser mics with all the associated paraphernalia, and replacing them with five other mics that can only handle one vocalist at a time is not simplifying. Are there really no unfussy condenser mics that work in a live small-group setting, or am I just dreaming?
PS: no drummer.
Sadly, the laws of physics apply. You can have mics that have a wide area of capture (“Omni”) or you can have mics that reject feedback (because they pick up from in front but not behind/sides), but not both.
The clips you have seen online either have no backline or are wearing IEMs.
If you really want to use a condenser, do away with your monitors and move the FOH speakers as far away as possible (to avoid feedback), mount the mic in a spider-web mount (to avoid any mechanical “microphony”) and… good luck.
Well we don’t have monitors either, so there’s that.
Clearly I’ll have to think again. Might press ahead with the Yamaha and its 8 inputs though.
I can’t add anything useful to this but i am thinking ‘ EarTrumpet Delphinas’ & ‘ hypercardioid polar pattern’ would be the John Peel show whereas ‘phantom power’ & ‘wild thunderstorm’ would be Tommy Vance.
‘Spark Edge’ could be either.
Bravo. Spark Edge would be Kid Jenson?
Him or Janice Long.
It’s also almost an amalgamation of Dr Feelgood’s bassist and U2’s guitarist, so if it was a person then I reckon he would look like a fat bloke in a beanie. Although I might be getting confused with the drummer. I could just look it up of course.
Benny from Crossroads?
Excellent @bryand!
If I’m not mistaken, Ear Trumpet & The Delphinas are currently on tour. I think the lead guitarist is called Spark Edge. Must check them out if they roll past anywhere near Foxy Towers.
I have an MXL V67G which is really good but has only ever seen studio use. Very good bang for the 120 euro or so.
The classic for bluegrass and other acoustic bands is the Audio Technica 4033. I have two and they’re excellent. I’ve done many gigs in a duo with just one mic and we move in and out to it depending what’s happening. They’ve gone up a bit since I got mine – I believe the 2020 is an ok cheaper version.
My current band has 4 singers and it’s SM58 all the way, into a 12 channel Mackie mixer and two powered 10″ speakers and sounds sweet as a nut, though we’re not super loud and don’t put drums or bass through the PA.
https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/at4033a
@twang How many AT4033s do you have? Can 2 singers use them simultaneously without having to get into a relationship?
I have 2 4033s. I used to use one in a duo which picked up two voices, acoustic guitar and fiddle or mandolin. You can’t really see the mic here but you can see the stand in front of my guitar. You have to experiment to find the right height then it gets whatever is in front of it – maybe 3? It’s a very nice natural sound. We remained just good friends.
The technique is to step forward and back depending what you’re doing – vocal, solo etc, rather than standing static in front of the mic like you’d usually do.
Nice! A couple of those would cover everything I reckon, and the fiddle comes out really well. Are they less fussy than the EarTrumpets, do you reckon?
I don’t know the ETs. They’re very sensitive so they’ll pick up what’s in front of them. I’d inclined to put all your acoustic instruments through them and cut out the amps.
Here’s one with msndo.
Not sure what you’re using the Spark Edge for but if long runs of mic cable are your biggest issue, you could invest in a multicore or “snake” to take care of the longest run then extend with shorter, easier to handle cables to get to the mics. The other alternative would be radio mics with receivers in a small rack but this would get expensive quickly.
I will, of course, defer to my learned friend further up thread: The Yamaha is simple to use but has limited EQ. You could consider a small digital mixer and separate amp which can be run from an iPad, Beringher and Allen and Heath are the budget options. This would give you more EQ control but it all comes down to what you want to spend and also, what you’re prepared to learn how to use.
I should probably go into more detail about what’s going on here (loud cries of ’no you shouldn’t’). We are a small band consisting of:
Electric guitar/vocals
Acoustic/banjo/vocals
Acoustic/tin whistle and various other bits of old pipe
Fiddle
Uke/recorder/vocals x 2
Bass uke/growling (moi)
AER Domino mono PA, very high-class piece of kit, 4 inputs, weighs a fucking ton – 3 mics + acoustic. Spark Edge, 4 inputs, Strat player’s playground, + 2 mics + fiddle. I have a little Boss bass amp, the penny whistler and one of the ukeists bring their own small amps. No monitors – so I guess that minus of condensers wouldn’t be an issue. Someone just goes to the back of the room to check the balance and that’s it.
We play in care homes, so the quality of the sound is not the main issue here. It’s good enough for our audiences – we always go down well, with the ones who are awake anyway. Sometimes hopping about even occurs. We always get asked back – in fact we’ve got gigs lined up well into 2027. Our setlist is tailored to the audience – 50s and 60s mostly, with a fair number of jigs and reels chucked in.
But given that several of us are older than some of the audience, I want to make our lives simpler, with less humping stuff about. We play on floors, not stages, and our footprint is generally about 7 or 8m x 2m, with the front row no more than 2m in front of us. Hence dreaming of a smaller and more versatile PA and just 2 mics. We get paid for these gigs, so we’ve got the money. Is there a solution?
I recorded my band in a rehearsal room with two carefully positioned 4033s and got decent results. No PA though. I fear to get gig volume you’d have feedback issues.
Were I in your position, I would ditch the Stagepas and go for a column speaker. Something like the HK Polar (there are plenty of cheaper lookee-likee brands).
https://hkaudio.com/product-group/polar/
These things are a bass bin with inbuilt Class D amplification and a line array of midrange and tweeter units which link on top.
Because they are a line array, the sound comes out in a 180-degree spread but not up into the roof or down at the floor (a “normal” speaker produces a “cone” of sound) so are very efficient. Because they use Class D amps they are lightweight and some of them are almost cable-free.
The downside is the inbuilt mixer is pretty functional – stereo Line in from a mixing desk, stereo Line in from a CD player/phone and sometimes Bluetooth.
I have set a couple of schools up with these plus a small (6/8 channel) Mackie mixer and they sound fab.
@fentonsteve You’re having a whale of a time here, aren’t you? 😉😁
I was thinking of these. I agree.
Thanks for your input, guys. I shall retire for a rethink.
Today I learned that phantom power is an electrical thing, and not just a cool name for an LP. The Super Furry Animals’ track from that LP which mentions phantom power is a belter, in full-on Hawkwind/Sabbath stoner groove mode:
I was thinking more of a band led by Slim Jim Phantom and Duffy Power…