This post is not to resurrect the Ryan Adams story but to ask a genuine question prompted by the latest shocking allegations of child abuse by Michael Jackson.
The substantial and numerous claims against Jackson have not diminished his popularity nor sales of his cd’s/dvd’s/ memorabilia and his publishers continue to reap huge rewards from his work.
Gary Glitter and now it seems Ryan Adams have had their careers destroyed for allegations on a far less industrial scale.
The cynic in me would would suggest the allegations against Jackson have been largely brushed aside to avoid killing the golden egg.
Pretty shocking all told.
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Bartleby says
Agree entirely. I was actually banned from the eil rare vinyl group on Facebook after asking why MJ wasn’t in the same category as Gary Glitter.
Moose the Mooche says
Yep. Money talks.* Gadd and Ryan just don’t have enough.
(*or rather silences)
kalamo says
On the radio yesterday someone was explaining that the main difference is that they don’t want to hear Gary Glitter’s music again.
Arthur Cowslip says
….. aaaand I kind of feel that way about Ryan Adams as well.
I think overall it’s an interesting question and an interesting train of thought. And I have no idea on the answer.
Tiggerlion says
Have you tried listening to Billie Jean or Bad lately?
Neela says
They get played regularly on the radio. ‘Your butt is mine’ indeed.
Twang says
Well they say trust the art not the artist but I couldn’t care less whether I hear Jacko in any scenario. It’s difficult to admire someone who does loathsome things. But Little Fear’s first bass player is a convicted paedophile and I still listen to those albums so who knows.
Mike_H says
Yes. Roy Estrada, original bassist with the Mothers Of Invention and then original bassist with Little Feat, also bassist for Captain Beefheart for a while, is currently serving a 25-year term (amounting effectively to a whole-life prison sentence as he’s not eligible for parole until 2036, by which time he will be 93) in Texas for a second conviction of child sexual abuse.
First one in 1994 for committing lewd acts with a child, for which he served a six year sentence in California, and then again in 2016 in Texas for continuous sexual abuse of a female relative under 14 years of age in 2012.
Apart from the recordings he’s on, Estrada was also very prominently featured as a guest performer in Frank Zappa’s “Baby Snakes” movie from 1979. I don’t have much of a problem with hearing the old MOI, Little Feat etc. albums he played on, but don’t think I want to actually see him in the “Baby Snakes” video ever again.
Colin H says
Never understood why Ryan Adams was popular. Boring blue colour plod, by an over-earnest man with a bad haircut, it seemed to me.
Uncle Wheaty says
Heartbreaker and Gold are great albums.
Diminishing returns beyond that.
I saw him live at the Albert Hall last year and he was excellent value.
For me these allegations can be completely separated from the music.
the music.
Bartleby says
I think Ashes and Fire is pretty good too. I’m sure I won’t stop listening to him.
dai says
Well, he’s dead for one thing. He is not directly profiting from sales/streams of his material. He could hardly sell a record in the US after his previous legal problems anyway. Rest of the world was more forgiving, but I am sure his sales have been affected worldwide in the last 20 years.
fentonsteve says
There was an interesting discussion on BBC R4 as I drove home from work the other evening on Art and The Artist. Charles Dickens was a wrong ‘un, but Bleak House continues to sell. As was Richard Wagner, yet the Ring is still performed.
Gary Glitter was charged in a court and found guilty. Michael Jackson never was. The latest witness testimony might lead to a Savile-like post-death sentence. Until then, I can’t see MJ being taken off the radio.
GG records were of their time, as was R. Kelly, and Ryan Adams was always a much smaller concern to radio playlisters.
I still quite enjoy hearing Rock ‘n’ Roll, despite meeting Gadd in a professional capacity (30 years ago) and finding him both deeply unpleasant and, well, creepy.
I am not defending any of them, by the way. I wouldn’t want to be in the same room as any of them, let alone leave my kids in their care. The appeal of Ryan Adams has always passed me by.
Moose the Mooche says
GG would still have been getting rolled out on TOTP2 and the like, not to mention the eternal afterlife of having made a moderately successful Christmas record.
R & R part 2 is a mighty record.
dai says
Well Jackson was tried in a court and found not guilty, doesn’t mean he didn’t commit those offenses (or indeed other ones)
Moose the Mooche says
Isn’t this where we mention the phrase “out-of-court-settlement”?
ernietothecentreoftheearth says
Moreover, Glitter/Gadd was convicted by three courts in two different countries.
ip33 says
This may be interesting reading
‘Too big to cancel’: can we still listen to Michael Jackson?
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/mar/01/leaving-neverland-is-it-still-ok-to-listen-to-michael-jackson?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Some of the themes raised have already been aired above.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
As one of the apparently few Ryan fans on here I have always accepted that he, much like Van, is a dick but a dick, who for me at least, has made some of the best albums of the past twenty years. Ryan had a breakdown in 2018, pulled himself together and banged out no less than three albums ready for release this year – I was too excited for a man of my advanced age.
Now thanks to the speed at which bad news travels these days I apparently have to throw all of his records in the bin.
I am not claiming Ryan Adams’ talent is in the same league as Charles D or Richard W but I truly, honestly don’t have a clue how I should react to the stories coming out about him which for the moment at least are but allegations.
One of my other heroes, Bobby D, has by all accounts not treated the women in his life very well but when does being a bit of a bastard turn into being a full-blown monster?
How many genuinely nice artists (artists working in any genre) are “nice”? Don’t get me wrong, if the claims made against Ryan are true, particularly the grooming of an underage girl, then he should be suitably punished by the law. Whether that means he, Gary or Michael should never be listened to in the future to that I have no answer.
DanP says
I too am a big fan of the man, and was looking forward to this year’s releases. Leaving aside the very serious allegations of underage grooming and such (for which he should most certainly have his collar felt), the tendency for, as you say, bad news to travel fast is worrisome. Some of the allegations against him were certainly for wielding power in obstructive ways, and far from commendable, but I’m not sure that some of these things are ‘against the law’ as such; I’d imagine these kinds of power plays (ambition, talent, ego, creative insecurity) are what attract people to the entertainment business in the first place. Corporations then take a purely business stance (his guitar fx company, iTunes etc) to distance themselves with ‘off-brand’ behaviour, and the artist is guilty of trial by twitter.
Certainly he should be investigated, but many of these momentums on twitter have the whiff of staged outrage and virtue signalling.
And as for Michael Jackson, I think it’s the whole cultural and entertainment package that’s behind a longevity that Glitter etc don’t have. I’m a high school teacher and yesterday at swimming carnival a few of his songs were played over the PA. Some dated drum sounds aside, the songs jumped out of the speakers, and the kids in the stands were moonwalking and singing along. The kids know he was kinda dodgy and weird, he’s just too strong a cultural singularity to be dismissed.
Twang says
I was a huge fan of Ryan after Whiskytown and his first few albums then I saw him in concert and he was such a dick I couldn’t forgive him. Worse than Van by miles. Arrogant, stupid, tedious, boring dickhead. I still like those early albums but more than 30 mins and I can see the idiot blowing fag smoke into the spotlight for what seemed like years. Pillock.
What made it worse was I’d brought a crowd along on the “he’s brilliant” recommendation. After half an uncomfortable half hour I asked one mate what he thought. “He’s an idiot” was the answer.
John Walters says
Completely agree. I was a huge fan of Whiskey Town ( 16 Days is a fabulous tune ) and his early albums.
Went to see him at The Manchester Academy in one of their mid size venues.
It was a baking hot July evening and the place was packed – no seating just standing only and everyone in the room was perspiring profusely after a few minutes in there.
Firstly the tw*t was 40 minutes late getting onto the low stage. Then when he finally arrived he SAT DOWN on a chair and proceeded to play.
If I stood on tiptoes I could just see the top his head ( and I am 6’ tall ).
My poor wife couldn’t see a bloody thing.
After 3 songs and his stupid ramblings we departed for a curry in Rusholme.
What a knobhead !!
Harry Tufnell says
To continue the theme I saw him in Sheffield at the Boardwalk in 2000, basically a pub venue, just him and an acoustic guitar and he was electrifying, one of the best gigs I’ve ever been to. Fast forward a year and with full band at Manchester Apollo and my word, what a dickhead, arguing with the audience, clearing his nose footballer style onto the stage and generally being a tool.
Lemonhope says
I was at that Manchester Academy show. What a knobhead sums it up nicely
Paul Wad says
I’ve see him three times and he was great every time. Whiskeytown at the Borderline was probably my favourite, as I prefer that stuff to his solo stuff. But then I saw him solo at the Borderline in front of what seemed a smaller crowd. By this time he had started with his daft antics, like stopping concerts to write a song on stage, but there was none of that, thankfully.
I remember that after the show my then wife and her friend went to have a chat with him and said the show was “super” and “lovely”, or something along those lines, which he apparently found amusing. In fact, I’m pretty sure that after his last song he announced which hotel he was staying at and invited everybody back for a drink, although that may have been somebody else I saw at the Borderline around that time, but I’m pretty sure it was him.
When I saw him a few years later at Shepherd’s Bush or Hammersmith (somewhere out west, anyway) the crowd was massive, so I withdrew into that rock snob setting that we have, where we don’t like people we like getting popular, despite years of moaning that they should be as big as Elvis, etc. “Well I liked him when he played in front of a handful of people in the Dog and Duck” and all that. He and his band were good, but nowhere near as good as the two earlier shows.
But he didn’t come across as a dick at any of the shows, although by that time I’d read enough about him to have formed the opinion that he was one. But if I got rid of all my records by artists who acted like dicks, or even just those who have done horrible things where under 16 year olds or women are concerned, I would suddenly have a lot of space on my shelves (and would lose a lot of records by some very big artists).
SteveT says
Interesting comments about Ryan. I am currently reading his biography written by his tour manager when he was with Whiskeytown. Plenty of tales of boorish and drunken behaviour but no mention yet of any predatory actions to the opposite sex.
I learnt at the weekend that this underage girl who he was involved in texting inappropriate messages to has actually never met him. I appreciate that doesn’t make it right but it makes it harder to prove that he knew she was underage.
Be interesting how the FBI will view this.
Junior Wells says
Comedian Hannah Gadsby who raised a stir with a show on Netflix dismisses Picasso’s entire artistic contribution coz he was an arsehole to women.
Moose the Mooche says
Has she got round to Modigliani yet?
Black Celebration says
Yes, the big difference here is that Michael Jackson was not convicted. For reasons I don’t really understand MJ was nearly or actually bankrupt but could still spend up large. However, as the circumstances of his death proves – in his later years he surrounded himself with idiots and yes men. His previously impeccable judgement fell away in the last 10 years of his life, distancing himself from family and lifelong friends.
As someone else up there said, it’s an important material fact that he is dead. TV’s Cleo Rocos claimed she partied in the West End secretly with Princess Diana, Freddie Mercury and Kenny Everett – the latter two in drag and Diana in a disguise. Given that they are all dead, she could say without fear of legal challenge that they shaved some pigs and rolled around in custard with them while singing Land Of Hope of Glory.
There was an insteresting part that Bashir programme when he talks of spending the night with a young boy in his room. He said as a bright and breezy aside “I slept on the floor” in the same way a notorious cad would when he is found to have spent the night in a dormitory full of young nuns.
fentonsteve says
MJ was also addicted to painkillers after the burns and was taking sedative daily to get to sleep.
I’ve had the same sedative three times during medical procedures and I was off my tits for 12 hours and lost my memory for 48 hours each time. When I discovered the circumstances of his death, I could understand how he’d become a fruitloop.
Moose the Mooche says
I heard Bashir on the radio the other morning and immediately thought “Oh hello, some weird shit must be going down somewhere”
pawsforthought says
Now the BBC’S religious correspondent, I believe.
Black Type says
‘Distancing himself from family’… Have you heard about his family? Distancing himself was probably one of the wisest choices he made.
Moose the Mooche says
Parting company with Quincy Jones – the end of his impeccable judgement right there. Given what he’d already started to do to his face, it was on the ropes anyway.
When MJ died my primary emotion was one of relief. Whatever he was, he was plainly a deeply unhappy person – that was never going to stop, with him surrounded by cynical shitehawks (see also Elvis). He was best out of it.
Black Type says
Yet he was a father who by all accounts, and setting aside all the dubious origins of said fatherhood and his allegedly aberrant behaviour in other areas, raised his children in a nurturing home environment to be relatively sane human beings.
dai says
Just hung them as babies over hotel balconies sometimes …
Somehow I doubt he had very mich to do with their upbringing.
DougieJ says
It’s a thorny issue, without a doubt. Countless hugely lauded creative people have since been found to be seriously morally suspect. It’s one thing to consign Savile, Glitter et al to the memory hole but *insert name of any one of a gazillion critically acclaimed artists here*? Not so much…
The Good Doctor says
I’m a firm believer in separating the art from the arsehole – I’m not going to trash my records by Lennon, John Martyn, Keith Moon, Brian Jones, Genesis P.Orridge, David Crosby, Miles Davis etc – if you had to delete all the records by people who are not very nice you would be left with….er….
Moose the Mooche says
Peter Skellern.
Freddy Steady says
Have you not heard the rumours Moose?!
Black Type says
What he did with those trombones was unspeakable!
Moose the Mooche says
Nooooooooooooooooooo!
fentonsteve says
I actually played Off The Wall and Thriller properly for the first time in the café at the end of December. I’d not bothered buying them back in the day as they were always on the radio, and I was buying New Order records with my limited funds. Thriller was 9 tracks long and 7 were released as singles.
Tell you what, they’re a pair of absolute bangers. Let’s put it down to the genius of Quincy Jones.
davebigpicture says
I never liked MJ but even I could see that Quincy Jones was the guy with the fairy dust that made him so successful. Maybe Jones just reined in Jackson’s ego, something that subsequent producers failed to do?
dai says
Whatever one thinks of him, those two records showed he (Jackson) was an extraordinarily talent *
* Except The Girl is Mine
retropath2 says
Every cloud etc. I had a ticket for him in Brum but then had a more important offer. I was interested to see what he would be like, as I have a scattering of his records, as well as being aware of his live, um, reputation. Now I have my money back. Win, win.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
Have the concerts actually been cancelled? Last I read they hadn’t therefore as yet no refunds?
He has disappeared from social media presumably under orders from his lawyers
Carl says
According to this story from yesterday he did –
Ryan Adams cancels UK and Ireland tour
With respect to Twang’s comments above I’ve seen both sides of RA live – a couple of storming gigs that are among the best I’ve seen and a couple where he was a complete dick.
As I recall I posted a review here of one where he was being a dick and someone, who wasn’t there (whose name I don’t recall), suggested I was mistaken.
dai says
Btw Gary Glitter still gets played at US sports grounds.
Black Type says
It’s the shoulder pads.
Tiggerlion says
😄
fentonsteve says
Even K-pop is infected, it seems:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47521528
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47550046
Moose the Mooche says
Big Bang indeed…
….sorry