Watching it now. Fear not. 3-1 to Norn Iron. Top of the table, though what I want to know is how come you ended up in a group alongside Romania, Hungary, Faroe Islands, Finland and Greece, while we ended up with Germany (fkin Germany!), Poland, RoI, Georgia and Gibraltar? Riddle me that?
Yes, they’ve turned it around. Starting to believe. Mind you I still think 24 in the finals of the Euros is madness and will significantly dilute the quality and impact of the tournament. Not that you are likely to be bothered, sadly….
What Scotland lack is what our near neighbours have – a Robbie Keane or a Gareth Bale. Tonight was undoubtedly an off-night but was not down to attitude, teamwork or anything like that. Simply – the lack of a world-class game-changer.
My man of the match was Charlie Mulgrew – but only cos he looks like an Armani model when he’s suited up.
He needn’t worry about his next career move when he retires from the beautiful game…. @raymond is right, we’ll beat the Germans on Monday. ❤️
I’ve just looked at my tea leaves.. Denis Law comes on, jinks his way past the bewildered Germans and blasts its over the bar. The German’s fourth goal was a mile offside. Twas ever it was so
The real story of the Euros is the impending qualification of Iceland (population just over 300,000), who are superbly managed by Lars Lagerback. He’s the man who led Sweden to qualification in five consecutive major tournaments.
I’d like to point out here that, in the run-up to Scotland’s disastrous appointment of Craig Levein in 2009, I was jumping up and down, shouting: “Don’t do this … Lars Lagerback is currently available!”
For good or ill, I confess I am pretty much with the Baron on this. I would prefer that Scotland qualify for the play-off game, if only for the prospect of them going out to a bizarre last minute rebound off the ref’s bum type incident.
Not very grown up, I concede, but you knew where you stood in the 70s.
I shall be there on Monday night, in my Germany shirt, to enjoy every minute of it. When I first started watching international footy in the early 90s I naively assumed we would support Scotland and vica versa unless we were actually playing them, but I was quickly educated…
Fair point Twang. But don’t you think the problem is asymmetry? Comparing any one of the home nations to England is surely like comparing Bolton, Oldham, Wigan or Bury to Manchester United. Sure, they’re from the same country and the same region. However, expecting fans of the smaller clubs to pay due allegiance to their ‘elders and betters’ might strike some as somewhat arrogant. Jeez – it really is hard to fathom.
The fact that Scandinavians apparently support each others’ teams when not in direct competition is occasionally raised, but that might hold water if Sweden, say, had a population of 50m (clue – false) while Norway, Denmark and Finland numbered no more than 5m each (clue – true).
No doubt this is a *hugely mean-spirited post* but there we are.
I don’t in any way consider myself to be elder or better than anyone in Scotland. I saw them as equally deserving of my support, aand naturally assumed they did likewise. Silly me.
Another test for England fans mystified at their lack of support from the other home nations might be how they genuinely feel at, say, German or American success.
‘Well played chaps’? Or, ‘hmmmphhh – well, they’re bound to do well, aren’t they?’
I say this as a Rangers fan, and therefore familiar with the chippy smaller club attitude. But, in all honesty, I can’t really demand unconditional admiration from fans of those teams, and certainly not from Celtic fans, which is more analogous to the Scotland – England situation.
My home team, Greenock Morton, has a thriving development programme. Just wait, there will be a big star in our national team who learned the ropes and was nurtured at Morton. Soon…. Just wait…. Not before next week though ❤️
I was born in Scotland but am a big England footie fan. I like Scotland too. Cheering when Gazza scored that cracker against Scotland during (I think) the 96 euros probably wasn’t my smartest move though. My mum almost threw me out. For real…! I’d love all UK teams to qualify. I support them all. Although I do have a soft spot for Greece. And USA. And and a few others ❤️
It was a shockingly poor display, but no huge surprise that we flopped yet again. The team are hugely reliable – you can rely on them to let the fans down.
We’ve, as usual, had a really difficult group as compared to the jammy bastards. (Guess who) The last couple of displays have been appalling, though.
I’ve got tickets for the Germany and Poland games which will probably be further exercises in masochism.
Think it’s a bit unfair to talk of the team letting us down Ian. It was always going to be hard to imagine us finishing ahead of Germany and Poland. Despite the enlargement of the tournament we are likely to miss out again. That’s just the way it is I’m afraid. But I don’t blame the players or manager. Would Wales be where they are without Bale? Is his development down to the wonderfully nurturing football culture in Wales or simply one of these things that happens from time to time? Good luck to them, but let’s not beat ourselves up too much. Similarly, England were never remotely likely to fail to qualify with room to spare. You can only beat what’s put in front of you and that’s what they’ve done. Scotland’s glass ceiling is qualifying for tournaments, while England’s is progressing while they are there. I’d say that *proportionally* we’re at a similar level really.
I think we are playing for third place, Dougie. That would give us a reasonable chance in the play-offs. If you take a look at how the other sections are panning out, there are quite a few possible opponents that I’d fancy us against (although not if we play like we did on Friday).
As for third spot, I think we’re in a better position than Ireland. We’ve still got to play Gibraltar, so let’s assume (NO! NO! NO! I hear you scream) that we pick up those three points. We’d be two ahead of them and, if we pick up even two draws from our home games against Germany and Poland, Ireland would need to get five points from their three remaining games to overtake us (remember, we’ve got the advantage in the head-to-head). Even if Germany beat us 5-0 tomorrow, a win over Poland at Hampden would require Ireland to get six points from their remaining fixtures.
Ooh, now I know the fixtures, the possibility of new delights open up. Scotland take points off Germany and Poland only to lose out due to a heart stopping goal line clearance by a Barbary ape.Is that too much to hope for ?
A well-made optimistic case there Raymond. Perhaps I’m being too gloomy. Strachan seems very sanguine about it anyway, and I feel he’s done enough in his time in charge to deserve respect. Time will tell.
Dougie – I wasn’t referring specifically to this side; just making a general point about Scotland’s propensity to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I’m old enough to remember a catastrophic result against Poland 50 years ago which scuppered our chances of getting to the ’66 World Cup.
It’s just so disappointing that we’ve flopped against Georgia yet again. This current side have played well at the beginning of the campaign, but the last two outings have been poor. Thee needs to be a bit of a shake-up for Monday night. I’m a believer in selecting players in form, rather than the same old line-up. It’s a Los a bit of a concern that the team is slightly old, with few youngsters getting a chance to shine. I think Stravhan and his team have done very well and it’s a huge improvement on the dire Levein era.
Anyway, hope springs eternal. Maybe Georgia can do us a small favour. I certainly wouldn’t bet against us beating Poland and think we could still qualify via third spot, given a reasonable draw. It’s just unfortunate that we’ve ended up in the toughest group of all.
I was in Paris for the ’98 World Cup and it was an outstandingly great time. The craic with the Tartan Army was unsurpassable. Bring it on!
Yep. John Collins’ wink to the camera in the pre-match line-up followed by him putting away a penalty to equalise against Brazil.
I fully realise this will come across as self-serving, and I certainly wouldn’t want to align myself with anything which is the ‘brainchild’ of Platini (fantastic player does not equate to gifted administrator, sadly), but if the re-designed tournament can allow for the inclusion of all the home nations (not just England, which, sorry, was always a given) and their sizeable and characterful following, then where’s the harm in that?
After all, it might mean being able to see a true world star from a small country (Bale, but in a previous time could have been Giggs) at one of the world’s greatest tournaments. It’s not as if San Marino, Lichtenstein or Andorra will be there.
I was in France in 1998 in the hope that I might somehow blag a ticket to the Norway game in Bordeaux. That didn’t happen, but it was great fun just being there.
There are lots of things not to like about having 24 teams in the Euro finals (mainly to do with the dilution of quality) but one of the upsides is this:
We finish 3rd in our qualifying group and qualify through the play-offs.
We finish 3rd in our group in France and qualify as one of the best third-placed teams.
We then beat Portugal on penalties in the last 16.
We beat England 1-0 in the quarter-finals in a ‘backs-to-the-wall’ epic after Sean Maloney has scored from a dubious penalty award.
Our luck runs out and Germany gub us 4-1 in the semis.
I have no issue with the expansion of the tournament, mainly because of entirely selfish reasons. I’d mistakenly thought that it would give Scotland a chance of qualifying. As things stand, I would recommend an immediate expansion of the 2016 tournament to 48 teams.
I doubt there’ll be much ‘dilution of quality’ at the Euro finals. The odious Blatter has steadily reduced the number of European teams in the World Cup, purely to curry favour with other continents whose teams are vastly inferior. The European teams always end up with a significant number of teams in the last sixteen.
As for Twang, my beef with the England team has little to do with the English population or the players themselves. It’s the ludicrous, arrogant jingoism from their assorted media. In the 50 years since ’66, England have reached one WC semi and one EC semi. Compare this with Germany’s record. Yet, despite this fairly abysmal showing, every couple of years we read that they have a great chance of winning blah blah. It’s only recently, in the wake of their shockingly awful performances in the last few tournaments, that this has been somewhat muted.
Why does it ‘bother’ me? The clue is in my use of the words ‘arrogant’, ‘ludicrous’ and ‘jingoistic’. There’s nothing wrong with optimism nor excitement, though it’s surely best when optimism is tempered with realism?
It’s the over-hyping of average players (‘golden generation’, anyone?) and the absurd belief, despite all evidence to the contrary and despite their abysmal past record, that the team are world-beaters and ready to take their rightful place at the top of world football. This was a constant refrain during my time in England from the assorted hacks and always proved a huge source of amusement. I’m aware that hacks need to sell papers, but the coverage pre-tournament usually bore little relation to reality.
No less an expert than Terry Venables heartily agreed with me in ’95 about the over-inflation of expectations that the media indulged in every couple of years and the disconnect between the proclamations of world beaters and the dismal results that followed. Scotland had our very own experience of that in ’78 and that, grossly humbling, fiasco led to a much more realistic, even sober, view of our prospects since then.
On a broader note, the jingoistic arrogance and trumpeting of, supposed, superiority regularly displayed possibly chimes with a view of the English that enjoys some currency abroad.
Bloke in the pub tonight said he had no problem with Engerland but his issues were with the disrespectful commentators who seem to think they deserve to qualify regardless of the opposition.
Us? Never. We’re a modest wee nation, with much to be modest about. Despite our having created the modern world, we wear our mantle of greatness lightly and humbly. For example, do you ever hear of us boasting about our contribution to one of the great dishes of the world – the deep-fried Mars bar?
Fair point Twang and the overall view of optimism from Scottish football fans suggests the Scots media is doing the same thing. And, let’s be fair, with the players and resources England have at their disposal, they should be capable of some decent results.
Scotland, sadly, simply don’t currently have the players. Take, as a sole example, Norwich’s Steven Whittaker. A talent-free defender who makes Doug Roughie seem silky by comparison, I watched Whittaker being taken apart in the recent game against Southampton, until, possibly to save himself any further embarrassment, he managed to get himself sent off.
3 days later, I find the self-same big haddy’s name in the Scotland squad.
Admittedly, he warmed the bench against Georgia, but the very fact a very average 32 year old player is allotted even the indignity of a yellow vest raises 2 questions.
1. Is this the best we have?
2. If so, how bad are the rest?
The Scots media have not indulged in unwarranted optimism since the humiliating campaign in ’78. We’re slightly more optimistic since Strachan became manager, but that’s solely because he’s a massive improvement on the hapless and hopeless Burley and Levein.
It’s a shame. I like to see Scotland do well. It seems that Scotland (like wales) can only hope to qualify every once in a while when a decent group of players come through together, which is probably fair enough given the size of the populations involved.
Despite our small population, Scotland used to have a regular stream of top-class players coming through, most of whom had great careers with top English clubs. Throughout the ’60s, ’70s and ’80s, most great clubs had a few Scots in their team. Leeds had Bremner, Jordan, Gray, Lorimer, MacQueen; Man U had Law, Buchan, Macari; Liverpool had St John, Souness Dalglish; Spurs had Mackay, Gilzean and White.
That stream has now completely dried up, probably for a variety of reasons to do with the modern world, and we now select most of our players from the lower leagues. We desperately need to follow the example of other smaller nations who have modernised their approach to coaching and developing players. We seem to be taking small steps along this road, but there seems to be very few players on the horizon.
The fact he’s playing abroad gives some cause for optimism as it may mean he avoids the delights of booze, birds and betting shops that seem to hobble our young players’ careers.
Wasn’t a rumour, unfortunately, Jim. It was widely-reported fact. The ban included all clubs in Edinburgh, also. The knob even used to attempt to enter in disguise which, IIRC, led to the ban being lengthened when this was discovered.
Starch an bought him for Celtic and, following a summer tour of the U.S., rarely played him. The rumour was that Strachan had entered Riordan’s hotel room to find his new signing clearing his nasal passages with a pick-me-up.
Well, a hugely enjoyable game in many ways. Germany stretched us all over the place but we hung in there.
Another heroic failure to chalk up.
The Republic winning, as expected, against Georgia, compounds the deflated feeling.
Strachan, I feel, is a wee bit in denial about the Georgia result, as his prickly response to innocuous questions about that game pre-match tonight demonstrated.
@dougiej hard on the Scots although I can’t complain. Imagine the irony if we put you through eventually. We probably owe the Scots that for 1988. That’s my reasonable hat on! I’m pretty happy with us though.
Thanks to @dougiej and @ianess for bringing up one of my favourite topics: Argentina 1978.
You may call my view ‘revisionist’, but I genuinely don’t think 1978 was a fiasco. Yes, it was marked by hubris, under-achievement and a truly vicious backlash from the ‘best fans in the world’, but it was not -in terms of results- a fiasco. The statistics would indicate that the performance was no worse than most of our campaigns in major tournaments. I’d suggest that 1974 was the high point, with 1954 being the nadir, closely followed by 1986. And 1990 wasn’t much better.
Scotland’s only victory over world class opposition at any finals tournament came in Argentina. You might argue that the 3-2 over Holland represented a pyrrhic victory, but that Dutch team came within a lick of paint of winning the trophy. I don’t think there’s another Scottish result in any tournament final stages that compares with it.
The real legacy of Argentina was that it ushered in a dismal era under Jock Stein in which it was all about playing down our chances (we’ve got to be realistic blah, blah, we’ve only got a population of 5 million, blah, blah).
In 1982, Mr Stein took a squad to Spain which contained six European Cup-winners (Hansen, Souness and Dalglish from Liverpool , Alan Evans from Villa, John Robertson and Frank Gray from Forest). He also had AC Milan’s centre-forward (Jordan) and a whole bunch of players who were a year away from achieving legendary status and European trophy success at Aberdeen (Leighton, McLeish, Miller and Strachan), along with another four who were about to win major Euorpean trophies with their clubs (Burley, Brazil and Wark at Ipswich and Archibald at Spurs).
Far from going into that tournament playing things down in order to avoid embarrassment , we should have been looking to reach the semi-finals at least. How would we rate any international squad these days that had six Champions League winners in it?
In the group, we threw away a three-goal lead against the part-timers of New Zealand, we looked embarrassed and apologetic after taking the lead against Brazil and we totally blew it against a Soviet Union team so gifted that they lost to Belgium in the next round. Brazil were probably the best footballing team in 1982, but they didn’t win it. Look at the last four in that tournament: Italy, Germany, Poland and France. Was there anything particularly frightening or brilliant about any of them?
The Stein philosophy was carried on by Andy Roxburgh. In 1990, playing against an utterly mediocre Brazil team in our last group game, we played for a 0-0 draw. We conceded a scrappy goal late on, then threw everything forward and created 2 or 3 gilt-edged chances in the last 5 minutes. We had played the jerseys instead of the eleven men on the park; Brazil had been there for the taking all along, but we were too pusillanimous to notice.
Know what you mean Raymond. I suppose the antidote to the post-Argentina-Samuel-Beckett-like-gloom is provided by Denmark and Greece, both of whom managed to win the European Championship despite not being Germany 😉
I’m in a great deal of agreement with the central thrust of your post, Raymond. Quite why Stein so heavily downplayed our chances was a bit of a mystery. From ’74 to ’82, we had some excellent squads, let down by their managers. As for ’78, I’m not surprised the Scottish fans had a meltdown after the draw with Iran.
My commiserations to the Scots. Ireland is now an aggressively mediocre team and my only consolation in perhaps qualifying for Euro 2016 is that we’ll likely be hammered more heavily than in 2012. The Irish are the best fans in the world, me hole! The Scots and the Dutch and are streets ahead for me. Raymond’s stuff is fantastic – I’m picturing a time when a national side could consider Archibald as a somewhat callow talent. Jaysus, that was a great era for Scotland. Mind, Ireland in the 80s wasn’t short of quality, either.
No need to commiserate @neilo. I think Scotland will still make the play-offs, probably at Ireland’s expense.
We can’t finish in the top two, but the calculation for us is quite simple – if we beat Poland and Gibraltar, the only result that can keep us out of the play-offs is Ireland beating Germany. And how many people think that is going to happen?
I said at the time that our scrambled point in Dublin was going to be decisive and I stand by that. 17 points will get us into the play-offs, because I don’t believe that Ireland will beat Germany. If you lose or draw that match, you’ll go into the last game with 15 or 16 points. If Scotland get to 17 points they’ll have the better head-to-head over both Poland and Ireland; it will be impossible for them to finish outside the top three.
Poland v Ireland will see the ‘winner’ going to Euros and the ‘loser’ finishing fourth.
The momentum for Ireland/Scotland is hard to gauge, Raymond, but I’ll support any Celtic nation that makes it to the finals and I won’t actively root against England, either.
Blue Boy says
You should worry. Northern Ireland are currently contriving to draw against the Faroe Islands……
duco01 says
Heartbreak for Faroese supporters as Norn Iron move into a 3-1 lead.
DougieJ says
Watching it now. Fear not. 3-1 to Norn Iron. Top of the table, though what I want to know is how come you ended up in a group alongside Romania, Hungary, Faroe Islands, Finland and Greece, while we ended up with Germany (fkin Germany!), Poland, RoI, Georgia and Gibraltar? Riddle me that?
DougieJ says
Slight, but only slight amendment to the above – I notice that Romania are currently 7th in the FIFA rankings. When did that happen?!
Blue Boy says
Yes, they’ve turned it around. Starting to believe. Mind you I still think 24 in the finals of the Euros is madness and will significantly dilute the quality and impact of the tournament. Not that you are likely to be bothered, sadly….
Raymond says
We were awful tonight. We never looked like scoring.
I expect us now to thrash the world champions on Monday night.
I think someone has spiked my drink.
DougieJ says
What Scotland lack is what our near neighbours have – a Robbie Keane or a Gareth Bale. Tonight was undoubtedly an off-night but was not down to attitude, teamwork or anything like that. Simply – the lack of a world-class game-changer.
todayoutof10 says
My man of the match was Charlie Mulgrew – but only cos he looks like an Armani model when he’s suited up.
He needn’t worry about his next career move when he retires from the beautiful game….
@raymond is right, we’ll beat the Germans on Monday. ❤️
Lodestone of Wrongness says
I’ve just looked at my tea leaves.. Denis Law comes on, jinks his way past the bewildered Germans and blasts its over the bar. The German’s fourth goal was a mile offside. Twas ever it was so
Raymond says
The real story of the Euros is the impending qualification of Iceland (population just over 300,000), who are superbly managed by Lars Lagerback. He’s the man who led Sweden to qualification in five consecutive major tournaments.
I’d like to point out here that, in the run-up to Scotland’s disastrous appointment of Craig Levein in 2009, I was jumping up and down, shouting: “Don’t do this … Lars Lagerback is currently available!”
DougieJ says
Well, the first part of his surname would certainly earn him brownie points with the Tartan Army…;-)
Sitheref2409 says
Wait til we lose to Samoa in the rugby and fail to make the 1/4s…
(I’ll be delighted if we qualify. But we have to show up against both USA and Samoa)
paulwright says
I would be showing up vs USA because it is next door in Leeds, but not at £85 per ticket. Sorry
Baron Harkonnen says
Sorry Scotland fans, you have as much sympathy from me as yourselves would have for your southern neighbours.
However I would have liked to see Scotland qualify, which sounds contradictory but that’s the kind of guy I am.
ernietothecentreoftheearth says
For good or ill, I confess I am pretty much with the Baron on this. I would prefer that Scotland qualify for the play-off game, if only for the prospect of them going out to a bizarre last minute rebound off the ref’s bum type incident.
Not very grown up, I concede, but you knew where you stood in the 70s.
Twang says
I shall be there on Monday night, in my Germany shirt, to enjoy every minute of it. When I first started watching international footy in the early 90s I naively assumed we would support Scotland and vica versa unless we were actually playing them, but I was quickly educated…
DougieJ says
Fair point Twang. But don’t you think the problem is asymmetry? Comparing any one of the home nations to England is surely like comparing Bolton, Oldham, Wigan or Bury to Manchester United. Sure, they’re from the same country and the same region. However, expecting fans of the smaller clubs to pay due allegiance to their ‘elders and betters’ might strike some as somewhat arrogant. Jeez – it really is hard to fathom.
The fact that Scandinavians apparently support each others’ teams when not in direct competition is occasionally raised, but that might hold water if Sweden, say, had a population of 50m (clue – false) while Norway, Denmark and Finland numbered no more than 5m each (clue – true).
No doubt this is a *hugely mean-spirited post* but there we are.
Twang says
I don’t in any way consider myself to be elder or better than anyone in Scotland. I saw them as equally deserving of my support, aand naturally assumed they did likewise. Silly me.
DougieJ says
Another test for England fans mystified at their lack of support from the other home nations might be how they genuinely feel at, say, German or American success.
‘Well played chaps’? Or, ‘hmmmphhh – well, they’re bound to do well, aren’t they?’
DougieJ says
I say this as a Rangers fan, and therefore familiar with the chippy smaller club attitude. But, in all honesty, I can’t really demand unconditional admiration from fans of those teams, and certainly not from Celtic fans, which is more analogous to the Scotland – England situation.
Twang says
I love Germany. What a fantastic team. With the onus on team.
Sitheref2409 says
In that equation, are Rangers Scotland or England?
Fiction Romantic says
Sorry to break it to you Dougie but Rangers are a small club.
aging hippy says
Does the SFA have ANY sort of development programme? The English game used to be enlivened by a wayward Scottish genius or two. It’s very sad.
todayoutof10 says
My home team, Greenock Morton, has a thriving development programme. Just wait, there will be a big star in our national team who learned the ropes and was nurtured at Morton. Soon…. Just wait…. Not before next week though ❤️
todayoutof10 says
I was born in Scotland but am a big England footie fan. I like Scotland too. Cheering when Gazza scored that cracker against Scotland during (I think) the 96 euros probably wasn’t my smartest move though. My mum almost threw me out. For real…! I’d love all UK teams to qualify. I support them all. Although I do have a soft spot for Greece. And USA. And and a few others ❤️
ianess says
It was a shockingly poor display, but no huge surprise that we flopped yet again. The team are hugely reliable – you can rely on them to let the fans down.
We’ve, as usual, had a really difficult group as compared to the jammy bastards. (Guess who) The last couple of displays have been appalling, though.
I’ve got tickets for the Germany and Poland games which will probably be further exercises in masochism.
Sewer Robot says
DougieJ says
up! true though 😉
DougieJ says
Think it’s a bit unfair to talk of the team letting us down Ian. It was always going to be hard to imagine us finishing ahead of Germany and Poland. Despite the enlargement of the tournament we are likely to miss out again. That’s just the way it is I’m afraid. But I don’t blame the players or manager. Would Wales be where they are without Bale? Is his development down to the wonderfully nurturing football culture in Wales or simply one of these things that happens from time to time? Good luck to them, but let’s not beat ourselves up too much. Similarly, England were never remotely likely to fail to qualify with room to spare. You can only beat what’s put in front of you and that’s what they’ve done. Scotland’s glass ceiling is qualifying for tournaments, while England’s is progressing while they are there. I’d say that *proportionally* we’re at a similar level really.
Raymond says
I think we are playing for third place, Dougie. That would give us a reasonable chance in the play-offs. If you take a look at how the other sections are panning out, there are quite a few possible opponents that I’d fancy us against (although not if we play like we did on Friday).
As for third spot, I think we’re in a better position than Ireland. We’ve still got to play Gibraltar, so let’s assume (NO! NO! NO! I hear you scream) that we pick up those three points. We’d be two ahead of them and, if we pick up even two draws from our home games against Germany and Poland, Ireland would need to get five points from their three remaining games to overtake us (remember, we’ve got the advantage in the head-to-head). Even if Germany beat us 5-0 tomorrow, a win over Poland at Hampden would require Ireland to get six points from their remaining fixtures.
‘mon the Scotland!
ernietothecentreoftheearth says
Ooh, now I know the fixtures, the possibility of new delights open up. Scotland take points off Germany and Poland only to lose out due to a heart stopping goal line clearance by a Barbary ape.Is that too much to hope for ?
DougieJ says
A well-made optimistic case there Raymond. Perhaps I’m being too gloomy. Strachan seems very sanguine about it anyway, and I feel he’s done enough in his time in charge to deserve respect. Time will tell.
ianess says
Dougie – I wasn’t referring specifically to this side; just making a general point about Scotland’s propensity to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I’m old enough to remember a catastrophic result against Poland 50 years ago which scuppered our chances of getting to the ’66 World Cup.
It’s just so disappointing that we’ve flopped against Georgia yet again. This current side have played well at the beginning of the campaign, but the last two outings have been poor. Thee needs to be a bit of a shake-up for Monday night. I’m a believer in selecting players in form, rather than the same old line-up. It’s a Los a bit of a concern that the team is slightly old, with few youngsters getting a chance to shine. I think Stravhan and his team have done very well and it’s a huge improvement on the dire Levein era.
Anyway, hope springs eternal. Maybe Georgia can do us a small favour. I certainly wouldn’t bet against us beating Poland and think we could still qualify via third spot, given a reasonable draw. It’s just unfortunate that we’ve ended up in the toughest group of all.
I was in Paris for the ’98 World Cup and it was an outstandingly great time. The craic with the Tartan Army was unsurpassable. Bring it on!
DougieJ says
Yep. John Collins’ wink to the camera in the pre-match line-up followed by him putting away a penalty to equalise against Brazil.
I fully realise this will come across as self-serving, and I certainly wouldn’t want to align myself with anything which is the ‘brainchild’ of Platini (fantastic player does not equate to gifted administrator, sadly), but if the re-designed tournament can allow for the inclusion of all the home nations (not just England, which, sorry, was always a given) and their sizeable and characterful following, then where’s the harm in that?
After all, it might mean being able to see a true world star from a small country (Bale, but in a previous time could have been Giggs) at one of the world’s greatest tournaments. It’s not as if San Marino, Lichtenstein or Andorra will be there.
Raymond says
I was in France in 1998 in the hope that I might somehow blag a ticket to the Norway game in Bordeaux. That didn’t happen, but it was great fun just being there.
There are lots of things not to like about having 24 teams in the Euro finals (mainly to do with the dilution of quality) but one of the upsides is this:
We finish 3rd in our qualifying group and qualify through the play-offs.
We finish 3rd in our group in France and qualify as one of the best third-placed teams.
We then beat Portugal on penalties in the last 16.
We beat England 1-0 in the quarter-finals in a ‘backs-to-the-wall’ epic after Sean Maloney has scored from a dubious penalty award.
Our luck runs out and Germany gub us 4-1 in the semis.
‘mon the Scotland!
DougieJ says
I’ll have whatever you’re having Raymond! Very un-Scottish optimism from you but very welcome 😉
ianess says
I have no issue with the expansion of the tournament, mainly because of entirely selfish reasons. I’d mistakenly thought that it would give Scotland a chance of qualifying. As things stand, I would recommend an immediate expansion of the 2016 tournament to 48 teams.
I doubt there’ll be much ‘dilution of quality’ at the Euro finals. The odious Blatter has steadily reduced the number of European teams in the World Cup, purely to curry favour with other continents whose teams are vastly inferior. The European teams always end up with a significant number of teams in the last sixteen.
As for Twang, my beef with the England team has little to do with the English population or the players themselves. It’s the ludicrous, arrogant jingoism from their assorted media. In the 50 years since ’66, England have reached one WC semi and one EC semi. Compare this with Germany’s record. Yet, despite this fairly abysmal showing, every couple of years we read that they have a great chance of winning blah blah. It’s only recently, in the wake of their shockingly awful performances in the last few tournaments, that this has been somewhat muted.
Twang says
So why does the way the media report England’s chances bother you in the slightest? Pre- tournament, is it unreasonable to be excited and optimistic?
ianess says
Why does it ‘bother’ me? The clue is in my use of the words ‘arrogant’, ‘ludicrous’ and ‘jingoistic’. There’s nothing wrong with optimism nor excitement, though it’s surely best when optimism is tempered with realism?
It’s the over-hyping of average players (‘golden generation’, anyone?) and the absurd belief, despite all evidence to the contrary and despite their abysmal past record, that the team are world-beaters and ready to take their rightful place at the top of world football. This was a constant refrain during my time in England from the assorted hacks and always proved a huge source of amusement. I’m aware that hacks need to sell papers, but the coverage pre-tournament usually bore little relation to reality.
No less an expert than Terry Venables heartily agreed with me in ’95 about the over-inflation of expectations that the media indulged in every couple of years and the disconnect between the proclamations of world beaters and the dismal results that followed. Scotland had our very own experience of that in ’78 and that, grossly humbling, fiasco led to a much more realistic, even sober, view of our prospects since then.
On a broader note, the jingoistic arrogance and trumpeting of, supposed, superiority regularly displayed possibly chimes with a view of the English that enjoys some currency abroad.
Fiction Romantic says
Bloke in the pub tonight said he had no problem with Engerland but his issues were with the disrespectful commentators who seem to think they deserve to qualify regardless of the opposition.
ernietothecentreoftheearth says
Jingoistic trumpeting, something no Scot could ever be accused of in any context ?!
ianess says
Us? Never. We’re a modest wee nation, with much to be modest about. Despite our having created the modern world, we wear our mantle of greatness lightly and humbly. For example, do you ever hear of us boasting about our contribution to one of the great dishes of the world – the deep-fried Mars bar?
garyjohn says
Fair point Twang and the overall view of optimism from Scottish football fans suggests the Scots media is doing the same thing. And, let’s be fair, with the players and resources England have at their disposal, they should be capable of some decent results.
Scotland, sadly, simply don’t currently have the players. Take, as a sole example, Norwich’s Steven Whittaker. A talent-free defender who makes Doug Roughie seem silky by comparison, I watched Whittaker being taken apart in the recent game against Southampton, until, possibly to save himself any further embarrassment, he managed to get himself sent off.
3 days later, I find the self-same big haddy’s name in the Scotland squad.
Admittedly, he warmed the bench against Georgia, but the very fact a very average 32 year old player is allotted even the indignity of a yellow vest raises 2 questions.
1. Is this the best we have?
2. If so, how bad are the rest?
ianess says
The Scots media have not indulged in unwarranted optimism since the humiliating campaign in ’78. We’re slightly more optimistic since Strachan became manager, but that’s solely because he’s a massive improvement on the hapless and hopeless Burley and Levein.
Jorrox says
Aw poo. It’s just a football thread!
Jim Cain says
It’s a shame. I like to see Scotland do well. It seems that Scotland (like wales) can only hope to qualify every once in a while when a decent group of players come through together, which is probably fair enough given the size of the populations involved.
ianess says
Despite our small population, Scotland used to have a regular stream of top-class players coming through, most of whom had great careers with top English clubs. Throughout the ’60s, ’70s and ’80s, most great clubs had a few Scots in their team. Leeds had Bremner, Jordan, Gray, Lorimer, MacQueen; Man U had Law, Buchan, Macari; Liverpool had St John, Souness Dalglish; Spurs had Mackay, Gilzean and White.
That stream has now completely dried up, probably for a variety of reasons to do with the modern world, and we now select most of our players from the lower leagues. We desperately need to follow the example of other smaller nations who have modernised their approach to coaching and developing players. We seem to be taking small steps along this road, but there seems to be very few players on the horizon.
Jim Cain says
Young Ryan Gauld could be the Gareth Bale or Robbie Keane you’ve been looking for.
ianess says
The fact he’s playing abroad gives some cause for optimism as it may mean he avoids the delights of booze, birds and betting shops that seem to hobble our young players’ careers.
Jim Cain says
A friend of mine used to teach the once highly-rated Derek Riordan, who rumour has it, was once barred from every pub in Edinburgh.
ianess says
Wasn’t a rumour, unfortunately, Jim. It was widely-reported fact. The ban included all clubs in Edinburgh, also. The knob even used to attempt to enter in disguise which, IIRC, led to the ban being lengthened when this was discovered.
Starch an bought him for Celtic and, following a summer tour of the U.S., rarely played him. The rumour was that Strachan had entered Riordan’s hotel room to find his new signing clearing his nasal passages with a pick-me-up.
Bingo Little says
Half time and the Scots putting up a hell of a fight. Enjoying this.
Raymond says
I thought we’d have to rely on scraps and set pieces and it seems to be working out so far. Can we ‘stick’ at half-time?
James Blast says
not anymore
Springer Bell says
Ahem Nice one Rep of Ireland
DougieJ says
Well, a hugely enjoyable game in many ways. Germany stretched us all over the place but we hung in there.
Another heroic failure to chalk up.
The Republic winning, as expected, against Georgia, compounds the deflated feeling.
Strachan, I feel, is a wee bit in denial about the Georgia result, as his prickly response to innocuous questions about that game pre-match tonight demonstrated.
Springer Bell says
@dougiej hard on the Scots although I can’t complain. Imagine the irony if we put you through eventually. We probably owe the Scots that for 1988. That’s my reasonable hat on! I’m pretty happy with us though.
Raymond says
We’ve got the better head-to-head with the Irish. If we finish on 17 points, they’ll need to beat either Germany or Poland. Let’s see what happens.
Springer Bell says
Indeed! Here’s hoping it’s the right team!!
Raymond says
Thanks to @dougiej and @ianess for bringing up one of my favourite topics: Argentina 1978.
You may call my view ‘revisionist’, but I genuinely don’t think 1978 was a fiasco. Yes, it was marked by hubris, under-achievement and a truly vicious backlash from the ‘best fans in the world’, but it was not -in terms of results- a fiasco. The statistics would indicate that the performance was no worse than most of our campaigns in major tournaments. I’d suggest that 1974 was the high point, with 1954 being the nadir, closely followed by 1986. And 1990 wasn’t much better.
Scotland’s only victory over world class opposition at any finals tournament came in Argentina. You might argue that the 3-2 over Holland represented a pyrrhic victory, but that Dutch team came within a lick of paint of winning the trophy. I don’t think there’s another Scottish result in any tournament final stages that compares with it.
The real legacy of Argentina was that it ushered in a dismal era under Jock Stein in which it was all about playing down our chances (we’ve got to be realistic blah, blah, we’ve only got a population of 5 million, blah, blah).
In 1982, Mr Stein took a squad to Spain which contained six European Cup-winners (Hansen, Souness and Dalglish from Liverpool , Alan Evans from Villa, John Robertson and Frank Gray from Forest). He also had AC Milan’s centre-forward (Jordan) and a whole bunch of players who were a year away from achieving legendary status and European trophy success at Aberdeen (Leighton, McLeish, Miller and Strachan), along with another four who were about to win major Euorpean trophies with their clubs (Burley, Brazil and Wark at Ipswich and Archibald at Spurs).
Far from going into that tournament playing things down in order to avoid embarrassment , we should have been looking to reach the semi-finals at least. How would we rate any international squad these days that had six Champions League winners in it?
In the group, we threw away a three-goal lead against the part-timers of New Zealand, we looked embarrassed and apologetic after taking the lead against Brazil and we totally blew it against a Soviet Union team so gifted that they lost to Belgium in the next round. Brazil were probably the best footballing team in 1982, but they didn’t win it. Look at the last four in that tournament: Italy, Germany, Poland and France. Was there anything particularly frightening or brilliant about any of them?
The Stein philosophy was carried on by Andy Roxburgh. In 1990, playing against an utterly mediocre Brazil team in our last group game, we played for a 0-0 draw. We conceded a scrappy goal late on, then threw everything forward and created 2 or 3 gilt-edged chances in the last 5 minutes. We had played the jerseys instead of the eleven men on the park; Brazil had been there for the taking all along, but we were too pusillanimous to notice.
By comparison, Argentina was a blast.
DougieJ says
Know what you mean Raymond. I suppose the antidote to the post-Argentina-Samuel-Beckett-like-gloom is provided by Denmark and Greece, both of whom managed to win the European Championship despite not being Germany 😉
ianess says
I’m in a great deal of agreement with the central thrust of your post, Raymond. Quite why Stein so heavily downplayed our chances was a bit of a mystery. From ’74 to ’82, we had some excellent squads, let down by their managers. As for ’78, I’m not surprised the Scottish fans had a meltdown after the draw with Iran.
DougieJ says
Didi Hamann – an impeccable pundit tonight. Gracious, respectful, but no false modesty. Pure class.
Neilo says
My commiserations to the Scots. Ireland is now an aggressively mediocre team and my only consolation in perhaps qualifying for Euro 2016 is that we’ll likely be hammered more heavily than in 2012. The Irish are the best fans in the world, me hole! The Scots and the Dutch and are streets ahead for me. Raymond’s stuff is fantastic – I’m picturing a time when a national side could consider Archibald as a somewhat callow talent. Jaysus, that was a great era for Scotland. Mind, Ireland in the 80s wasn’t short of quality, either.
Raymond says
No need to commiserate @neilo. I think Scotland will still make the play-offs, probably at Ireland’s expense.
We can’t finish in the top two, but the calculation for us is quite simple – if we beat Poland and Gibraltar, the only result that can keep us out of the play-offs is Ireland beating Germany. And how many people think that is going to happen?
I said at the time that our scrambled point in Dublin was going to be decisive and I stand by that. 17 points will get us into the play-offs, because I don’t believe that Ireland will beat Germany. If you lose or draw that match, you’ll go into the last game with 15 or 16 points. If Scotland get to 17 points they’ll have the better head-to-head over both Poland and Ireland; it will be impossible for them to finish outside the top three.
Poland v Ireland will see the ‘winner’ going to Euros and the ‘loser’ finishing fourth.
Neilo says
The momentum for Ireland/Scotland is hard to gauge, Raymond, but I’ll support any Celtic nation that makes it to the finals and I won’t actively root against England, either.
Raymond says
Yes, it’s looking good for England, Wales, Northern Ireland and either Scotland or Republic of Ireland.
But I’m also thrilled that Iceland (population 300,000) have qualified.