I like shopping for records. It’s become more fun in the last few years as there are Record Shops springing up again after a few years of them vanishing or the existing ones feeling rather desperate and sad. My local Indie shop Piccadilly Records is now buzzing like it was 20 years ago and there are queues at the till, and I’ve lots of other second hand shops to browse in, all of which are doing a brisk trade and feel a lot more upbeat.
That’s Manchester though. When I venture further afield to visit Record Shops in smaller towns and cities I see an increasing number of shuttered up shops, and a proliferation of Nail Bars, Tanning shops, Hairdressers, Charity Shops, Pound shops or empty shops pressed into service as a Community initiative or well meaning but somewhat half-arsed Art Project. I saw this today when I visited the excellent Skeleton Records in Birkenhead. Skelly’s was an oasis of wonderful treasures as always but outside it was grimmer than ever. It’s an inevitable result of people online shopping, people having less money to spend generally and also Supermarkets and out-of-town retail parks stealing a march on the traditional high street.
I know a lot of you on here prefer to shop online and buy music on Amazon. (I actively Boycott them because I can get everything I need from my local shops but I appreciate a lot of you don’t have that luxury). I’m interested to know if Afterworders have views on what’s happening on their High Street and what, if anything, they can suggest would be the solution.
bricameron says
Now is the time to run for a council seat I would think.
Baron Harkonnen says
Good idea Bri, let`s hope there are more. However it`s a sign of the times. Simple. The gap between those with, of which I`m not and those without, of which I`m lucky to not yet be one is, as we all are aware is widening especially in the (dis)U.K. Those with being far out-numbered by those without.
That`s why we find expensive beauty spars next to a Pound shop.
There are, of course, those who are inbetween these two groups. I reckon 90%* of AWs are in this group. We shop out of town at these retail parks/shopping malls, eat at food courts. Why? Because of a certain P.M.`s actions in the later years of the 20th century. The fountainhead of which was the closure of small businesses in town centres and the move to these retail parks/shopping malls & food courts. Take into account crazy rates for these small shops and the criminal acts** of politicians whose policies created these conditions. Conditions where those in the know had their heads stuck in the money troughs greedilly guzzling away this country`s assets.***Thus the creation of, yes you guessed, these out of town monstrosities.
*90%, yes I guessed at that!
**Criminal acts? An example of a criminal: Dennis Thatcher.
***A generalisation, but true.
The answer, I don`t think there is one. Which local authority is going to bulldoze these retail parks/shopping malls & food courts and lower rates in town/city centres to encourage business`s large and small to move back in?
Back to bri`s suggestion^^^^^^^^^
Good thread Doc, I`m one of those who gets his stuff, well most of it, from Amazon. I have to travel into Manchester otherwise (20 miles away) same with Liverpool but I may not be able to get what I want.
Uncle Wheaty says
I would add that there are those with kids (1-21) and those without.
The former adds much more expense which is also pertinent to the discussion.
Harold Holt says
I had a similar reaction walking round Birmingham city centre last year. High end jewellery shops like Rolex next to poundland style places. Seemed like a harbinger of doom to me, but not seeing the longer transition I don’t know whether it means the economy is on the way up or the way down. The burbs were even worse, with family warning me off Walsall altogether.
And no decent record stores that I could find after walking much of the brum city centre over 3 or 4 days. One very dusty second hand record store which seemed on its last legs.
What to do…make the place more inviting with piazzas and plazas to hang out in, mixing bars and cafes and smaller shops. Even the traffic free areas were just wider sidewalks, nothing that would make you want to stand still, much less sit.
johnw says
I do use the town centre in the town where I work but I wouldn’t really miss it if it was turned into houses. My local town has an Arndale centre which I think I’ve visited twice in the past 10 years. It’s so hard to park there that it doesn’t seem to be worth the effort. Everything is available online and most stuff I might need in a hurry (for house repairs etc) tend to be available at an out of town place where I can park outside. I really don’t understand why many people are so keen to keep town centres.
Personally, I’m not happy having this type of shopping propped up by public funds so if they can’t survive commercially, local councils need to be more flexible in allowing changes of use for the buildings.
I like browsing in records shops and book shops as well but sadly they can’t compete with the breadth available on the web. That’s just the way it is. I accept that.
The hurdles for online shopping are reducing all the time with the proliferation of things like Amazon lockers.
It must only be a matter of time before most banks move to more convenient places. I can’t actually recall the last time I went into my bank to do anything other than pay in a cheque (possibly 6 or 7 years ago but probably longer) and hopefully cheques will be consigned to history quite soon – they seem to me to be there for the convenience of the person owing rather than the person owed which seems round the wrong way!
Chrisf says
Here in Singapore, the main shopping belt “Orchard Road”, seems to go fro strength to strength with continued new shopping centre developments / refurbishments. It is somewhat different to a traditional town centre though as it’s more a collection of shopping Malls rather than individual shops. They always seem to be busy, which I think is due to a combination of tourists coming here forg shopping (although it’s really not that cheap), many food related places in the Malls (Singapore’s favourite pastime) and probably due to the fact they are air conditioned when it’s 32degC outside……
I am one of the ones that shops online – especially for music, and even mostly digital downloads these days. This is simply down to more choice and immediate availability. I used to enjoy going to HMV at lunch time to browse – initially we had a big three floor store that had a really good range and you would always come out with something. As CD sales dwindled, they downsized and concentrated on chart stuff – basically cutting off those who were still buying physical music. I stopped going, they closed down (I don’t claim full responsibility).
What can be done – I think it really comes down to making the town centres somewhere that people (especially families) want to go and spend a few hours – which probably means lots of places to eat and drink.
H.P. Saucecraft says
My old home town of Coventry was, before the war, a beautiful city, with a medieval street pattern and many medieval buildings. Even the “contemporary” architecture had a charm and solidity. Concentrated German bombing (we did just as bad a thing in return – possibly worse – with Dresden) obliterated the city centre, allowing the then new science of town planning to start with a clean sheet. The original city precinct (which I remember) got many things right. It was a pleasant, traffic-free place to walk through and shop. Fine quality public art, fountains, parks, and a general post-Festival Of Britain optimism shone through. But the planners made one huge, fundamental mistake – there were no houses or flats. No residents of this Brave New World. Consequently, it was deserted to drunkards at night, and the slow process of attrition started. Vandalism was as much a part of city life as the local newspaper. Subsequent attempts over the long years since have without exception made the city centre a worse place – it looks like every wanky local architect has tried to make their mark with whatever style was in vogue at the time, and the original coherence has entirely disappeared. It is justly regarded as a shit-hole of epic proportions, with impenetrable traffic systems, headache-inducing catalogue-sourced “architecture”, shops nobody in their right mind would want to buy anything from, and a palpable feeling of a failed experiment that only more carpet-bombing could put right.
I haven’t lived there for decades. Its saving grace when I did was a great bunch of people, thriving local music, and the fact that it was easy to escape. As to record shops, I’d spend every lunch hour doing the rounds of the second-hand vinyl shops – there were maybe half a dozen.
If the High Street and the City Centre have had their day, you can look to the town planners and architects of Coventry City for aiding and abetting the process.
Carl says
Sorry to take this off at a tangent, but the bombing of Coventry is hardly comparable with that of Dresden.
The Allied bombing mission created a firestorm, it was so intense That meant amongst other things people in bomb shelters, who might have survived died of suffocation because all the oxygen was consumed by the flames.
Fewer than 1,000 were killed in the Coventry raid while up to 25,000 perished in Dresden.
H.P. Saucecraft says
You read my “possibly worse”, right? And of course the bombing of one city is comparable with that of another. That’s the reason I brought it up, not to argue about the relative awfulness of urban bombings, in which case not even Dresden would be at the top of the list.
Carl says
I do wonder if there is going to be a rebirth of high streets in a very modified form.
My thinking is based on Amazon’s purchase of organic food retailers in the USA.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/16/amazon-buy-whole-foods-market-organic-food-fresh
They see life continuing there. They surely don’t think they could exist as the only shop. There have to be other shops.
This requires a lot more thought and analysis, but I think there is a limited future.
Bingo Little says
They can deliver groceries to spec via drone. That’s the probable long game.
That said, they have been experimenting with how they can “improve” bricks and mortar retail (by which they mean: remove all the costly people). A friend of mine recently worked on this:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-40051886
chiz says
Drones… the first time a 24 pack of Heineken falls from the sky onto a school playground it’s all over for aerial delivery. It’s a nice idea but it’ll never fly.
Bingo Little says
Poppycock. I was at the Drones with Pongo Twistleton only yesterday, and can confirm the institution remains in rude health.
Mike_H says
But never rude to the club staff.
They know their place and we do appreciate that.
Bingo Little says
We’ve got a decent little high street near us with a very solid HMV (plus Curzon cinema in on the floor above), a JD Sports which is good for gym and football stuff, a nice second hand bookshop, and a really excellent Waterstones. I also pass a lot of good shops in town on the way to work.
Consequently, I’ve found that – without too much effort on my part – my online shopping has really rolled back in recent years. I still very occasionally use Amazon if we’ve forgotten to pick something up and there isn’t time to poke around looking for it, but I stopped buying books from them years ago now, I don’t buy music any more due to Spotify, and I get most DVDs free through work. Games, I go to HMV for.
I found the switch back to book shopping in person to be really, really enjoyable. It’s a little more time consuming, because I generally arrive at the store not really knowing what I want, and have to forage, but that’s never wasted time is it, pootling around looking at books? I generally do it on my way to work in the morning, when the shop’s quiet and I can chat to the staff about what they’re reading. It’s a massive pleasure. Amazon has much better variety, of course, but the actual shopping experience is so cold and impersonal, and I know from friends who work there that they fundamentally don’t believe in physical books, so they can (to use a publishing industry expression) cock right off.
mikethep says
You are a man after my own heart – apart from the gym and football stuff, obviously. Second-hand bookshopping on the way to work, there’s a luxury. I used to do mine on the way home in the Charing Cross Rd.
Living where I do in Brisbane I go all over the south side doing actual shopping in actual shops – butcher, baker, fruit and veg, coffee beans, bookshops (mostly second-hand, admittedly), bottle shops (no alcohol in supermarkets, thanks to a spectacularly successful bit of lobbying), delis etc etc. There are enormomalls if I want them, but I rarely do. I have no fewer than three excellent Indian spice shops within 10 mins drive, not to mention Little Saigon 20 mins away. The local shops have rebranded themselves as Salisbury Shopping Centre in some half-arsed attempt to get with the programme, but we’re talking about chemist, doctor, path lab, crappy Chinese, accountant, tattoo parlour and a Spar, so nobody takes it too seriously.
Amazon haven’t reached here yet, though they’re on their way. There is online shopping galore of course, but there’s a definite whiff of 2005 about it – let’s give this new-fangled thing a whirl and see how it works. There are exceptions – I received some extremely recherche Indian cookery ingredients on Friday, 2 days after ordering. But mostly you’re quoted 8-10 days for delivery, even by Oz’s largest online bookshop.
If you want to see a town centre dying, go to St Austell. Atmospheric town centre demolished, grand plans agogo, affordable housing nobody wants or can afford, a few shops surviving, including the health food shop and the spice shop, interestingly, otherwise nothing but TK Maxx, Wilkos and pound shops, which have been overtaken by 99p shops.
Sewer Robot says
Free DVDs from work? Git.
The only thing we get free down here in the sewers is hepatitis…
johnw says
Blimey! You must live in a very cosmopolitan area! Going shopping before work isn’t a practical option for me, ‘ve just looked them up and most shops in my local town centre and also the ones in the town I work in don’t open until at least 8:30!
Dave Ross says
It’s rent vs footfall. My girlfriend runs a little sandwich bar in a small town that also has a Costa. The landlord is great and charges a sensible all inclusive rent / rates / electricity etc. With the number of people that are in that town she just about makes enough to cover costs and per herself a minimum wage style salary. She pours her heart and soul into it serving sandwiches to people with their Costa coffees. She can’t afford to pay anyone so time off is impossible, there just isn’t enough footfall. We have looked at the nearest large town as there are several cafes available. Even if we had the £30k lease purchase price, the rents are extortionate, she’d have to employ staff probably work even harder, spend much more to end up achieving a similar salary for herself. I’m sure this applies in whatever retail sector you want to try and set up. She doesn’t complain and she loves her shop and the independence but it comes at a price, a week off means she works a month for nothing, the life of the self employed. Just thought I’d offer a view from the inside so to speak, cannot understand how any record shop stays open either through lack of customers or extortionate big city rents.
chiz says
We’re rapidly moving beyond bricks-and-mortar retail. Local Authorities have to top up central funding with business rates and parking charges, and bribes from supermarkets to prop up edge-of-town leisure/ residential developments. Cities are tackling air quality and congestion, as they should, but shops with no deliveries don’t stay open long.
I’ve got two new vinly shops within a two-minute walk of my office, and a great secondhand bookshop, but it’s pretty much the end of days for them, they just don’t know it yet.
deramdaze says
Penzance has a prodigious number of charity shops and, the Record Fair’s three-monthly visit notwithstanding, 95% of my purchases are from them.
“Grateful Dead: Live August 1968” 2-CD set for £4 last Wednesday.
Fantastic time to buy CDs from charity shops.
There’s a really good second hand record/CD shop in both Falmouth and Truro.
The record industry really only has itself to blame, bending to each passing fad (at the moment it’s vinly) in a manner so alarming it is really only eclipsed by the BBC.
There was a time when the punter was in thrall to Tower, Virgin, HMV and the like; now I think I own more records than HMV, and I sure-as-damn-it know more about them.
slotbadger says
I lived in Falmouth between ’93 and ’96 and there was a fantastic family-run record shop in the High Street, on the road to Penryn. Do you happen to know if its still there? I think it was called Compact Records & Tapes.
deramdaze says
That sounds like the one, even the vinyl is reasonably priced.
Almost regardless of what it is, each CD is priced at about £6 or £7, so you can walk out with three or four long deleted items for about £20.
SteveT says
Birmingham has a thriving shopping centre with the Bull Ring allegedly attracting the highest number of visitors of any shopping centre in Europe. However for Record shopping forget it. A large and profitably run HMV in the Bull Ring. Then you have Swordfish who have relocated somewhere that I don’t know how to get to and The Diskery a second hand shop in a real dump of a place.
We would benefit from a FOPP or a Rise but Rise seem to want to be in market towns.
Elsewhere someone remarked about Rough Trade not doing well in Nottingham – its down to the location not the shop. If they put a shop in an area of low footfall what do they expect?
There were a couple of independents at the Custard Factory in the Digbeth area of Birmingham but it was a good 20 minute walk from the city centre. They didn’t survive but I guess it was the only place where the rent was low enough to make opening a record store a slightly feasible proposition.
H.P. Saucecraft says
I remember some truly epic second-hand record shops in Birmingham. I used to trek over there (having the jabs first) and spend Saturday going round them. “Reddington’s Rare Records” was the biggest and best-known, but you were unlikely to find any big bargains there. Also the covered market was amazing for old albums.
slotbadger says
It was something of a ritual when I was at 6th form college, to drive into Birmingham on a Saturday morning and do the record shops. Swordfish was one, Second City Sounds another and yes, the covered market too, finishing up with pints of bitter at the Jug of Ale.
Peanuts Molloy says
When Dan Reddington’s shop was by the underpass to Moor Street station he had trestle tables outside groaning with the weight of big bargains . . . I think they were all priced at £1.25 and many of them are on the shelves behind me. Some of them are worth £2.25 now.
Those trestle tables added 30 minutes to my journey home every day.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/reddingtons-rare-records-closing-good-7596476
H.P. Saucecraft says
It was the early-mid seventies when I used to dirty my thumbs in the crates at Reddingtons, so that was Moor St. I think.
Peanuts Molloy says
It was 1979 and afterwards for me.
I worked in Bank House, Cherry Street and Reddington’s later had a shop directly opposite our entrance doors. Tempting? Yes.
There was another shop. In an arcade on the left as you walked up Corporation Street (?) from the station towards the library. The owner was tremendously grumpy and I had to pluck up the courage to enter.
However, when he packed it all in he had a magnificent closing down sale. I remember going to a concert at the Odeon where the support was John Hiatt. He was brilliant. Next day I went to the aforesaid sale and there was Slug Line for 20p.
Maybe it was 40p. But it was pleasingly cheap. It is also on the shelf behind me as is every record he has released since.
newpathstohelicolin says
Swordfish is still worth visiting. It’s a bit hidden though so there’s absolutely no passing trade at all. It’s in Dalton Street, just over the road from Birmingham Crown Court round the back of Scruffy Murphy’s. There’s also Ignite in the Oasis market run by one of the guys that used to run Tempest (so specialises in Indie, Punk and Metal.
retropath2 says
So that’s where it is! More than twice, knowing it was somewhere by the lawcourts, I have taken a deliberate wander and failed to find it. Always thought it a bit dear when it was in Temple St.
rocker49 says
Living in an area of south London with no local bookshop or record shop worth the name, I identify with all the above.
The good news is that if and when I sell my flat I have the choice of several estate agents. In fact I will be able to pop into three in row just up the road.
I also have a wonderful choice of convenience stores selling candles, nylon rugs and light bulbs for a pound, not to mention a full range of exotically named kebab and burger shops to enhance my cholesterol levels,
Oh, and should I ever decide to embrace the full range of Polish cuisine, bread and delicacies, the world’s my oyster.
I’m never short of choice when it comes to a café latte or a hot chocolate. Indeed, these are strategically placed every few doors, between the mobile phone shops, the chemists, Happy Snaps and dry cleaners.
Whenever I need to buy anything I really need, I’m on the bus to Croydon, or into that overpriced tourist paradise, Central London.
But what I really want is to walk along the street and see a few more trees and shrubs, maybe some big flower pots here and there. Brighten up the place a bit. Motivate me to get out of the house and spend some money in all of the above emporiums.
Yep, you guessed it, I live 5 minutes from Streatham High St.
Smudger says
Perhaps not surprisingly, there seems to be a desire on here to see our high streets filled with record stores and second hand book shops. However, if there’s no demand for them, then it’s not going to happen and demand is the reason why nail bars, vaping shops, kebab shops etc are doing well and are popping up all over the place.
I agree something needs to be done with out high streets (particularly sub-urban high streets) given the number of vacant premises. Local authorities could soon become forced to be more creative thinking on this front as the Government seems intent on continually reducing central Government grants to local authorities with the payback being that local authorities are going to be able to keep a higher proportion (if not all) of business rates, as opposed to them going into the central Government pot. Therefore, the provision of local services by local authorities is going to be increasingly dependent on high streets being fully occupied.
Dave Amitri seems to be alluding to another problem which is landlords. There’s an affluent suburb of Nottingham which has a nice high street but apparently most of the premises are owned by a single landlord who has in recent years pushed the rents up to the point where quite a few of the independent shops have had to close up, only to be replaced by a bar/restaurant which is more often than not part of a national chain (Carluccio’s etc). The result is a far less interesting high street, even if it still remains fairly vibrant and popular.
SteveT says
You are right H.P. – Reddingtons was brilliant especially if you wanted to get rid of albums you had tired of. Used to take in a pile and come out with another pile Sadly he closed a few years back not through lack of success but through age. He sold off his substantial collection too.
Regarding Coventry I genuinely find the place quite menacing but the Transport museum is ace and I want to go to the Two Tone museum which also has good reviews.
As a kid used to go there quite regularly – train from Marston Green. A mooch round the shops and then the bus to Bagginton Aerodrome for a bit of plane spotting. Those were the days my friend
Gatz says
Whatever happened to Mary Portas’ ‘tsar’ role to revive high streets? As it happens I was in Braintree yesterday, one of her pilot towns. I don’t know what happened behind the scenes but on the street the only noticeable action were a couple of posters on lampposts. I like town centres and we almost always spend Saturday afternoon pottering about a local town, usually browsing the charity shops which may be a symptom or cause of general decline themselves (hmm? Oh, a couple of DVDs for The Light, and a frame for a print I bought recently which turned out to be an unusual size, and a nice black linen jacket for me, which will be just the thing for our visit to Paris next weekend. Thanks for asking.) Anyway, the town seemed packed but if everyone was like us and only spent in the chazzaz, lunch in the ‘Spoons and a bit of fruit and veg from the market it won’t do the shops which sell new produce much good.
In my home of Chelmsford there is evidence that the right sort of retail can work in towns, or rather cities. Chelmsford was made a city a couple of years ago and the practical affect seems to be that an old car park off the high street was turned into an upscale shopping street anchored by John Lewis, all the office blocks were converted into flats, and every other empty building in the centre became a chain restaurant. John Lewis and the other shops at least look highly successful, but at the expense of the existing Meadows centre which seems to be in its uppers at the moment (an excellent idea to turn the still-empty BHS in the Meadiws into a bowling alley was knocked back, which is a shame as it would have done wonders for that stretch of the river).
All this is really about capacity. When online shopping makes trips to the town centre unnecessary then people who dislike towns have no reason to go. When new shops open then some others may suffer. All this is a shame for those like me who enjoy town centres, and see them as places which should be full of bustle and people. Happily Chelmsford seems to be thriving, other local towns less so (Colchester should be a gem, but is increasingly squalid). I want town centres to survive as places where people shop, work and live because otherwise what are towns for, and what would I do on the weekend?
The Good Doctor says
Spot on
johnw says
Whilst not wanting to put words I your mouth, you seem to very broadly, be saying that shopping in the town centre is akin to a hobby or other leisure activity. That’s fine as long as people don’t expect me to find that hobby. We all need to buy stuff occasionally but, apart from record buying, most of those are ‘stress’ purchases which is rather do online worth the minimum of effort.
The Good Doctor says
I know a lot of people are like yourself and would prefer to stay home and just buy everything online for maximum convenience and minimum effort…but you’d seriously rather everything was shuttered up so you can stay at home and barely lift a mouse finger?
Town centres are really important. They provide jobs for a start, and people deserve to have somewhere pleasant where they can meet up, eat, drink, shop, try on some shoes, read a book, get some exercise, go for a swim or whatever. We’re always being told that people are increasingly lonely and isolated so towns have a huge part to play in combating that.
I know the world has changed and towns need to change and adapt with it, particularly if they’re to have any relevance to people who’d rather shop online.
I’m not expecting anyone to artificially prop these places up. I do think a lot could be done if councils, landlords, businesses and government work together, have a bit of vision and creativity, and stop acting like dickheads over things like parking charges, rent and rates. Some investment is needed obviously, but perhaps some of this could be funded by Amazon and co paying their fair share of tax?
johnw says
I’m not suggesting things are shuttered up. I’m suggesting that if not enough people want to go to a town centre to shop, then the use should be changed. I’m coming from a standpoint of never having lived in a town with a life in the evening so it’s just shops and banks with tumbleweed come 5:30. With online shopping, we no longer need to go to a place that has a variety of shops. If I need to go to a shop, it’ll be one shop so the it seems crazy to drive to a place where there are lots of other shops I have no interest in and compete for parking spaces with other people that just want to go to one shop…. but a different one. One option might be to get rid of loads of the town centre shops and make it easier to park right by the remaining ones. and treat the TC like a glorified strip mall. When I first went to the US over 25 years ago, I thought the idea of strip malls was a bit odd but now, with so much shopping done on the Internet, it seems like a sensible environment for specialist shops.
JustB says
Mmm not sure about that, John. Lots of people enjoy the process of shopping.
I much prefer buying clothes in person – sizing is v difficult to get right online, unless the purchaser is content to shlub about in badly fitting jeans and a baggy t-shirt the whole time. Me, I’m not. I don’t clothes shop terribly frequently but when I do I want to know that what I buy looks good. Online can’t help with that, and is nowhere near as fun.
As for record shops, I’d both love and hate to have one near me. Love because it’d be nice to rummage through the vinly racks rather than going to Amazon knowing exactly what I want. Browsing is the great pleasure of real shopping. Hate because I’d be even poorer than I am!
Dr V, I know we’ve had this tax conversation before but Amazon aren’t tax dodgers. They’re operating within the law as set down by the government, and aren’t having to do backflips to comply. It’s easy for a multinational to comply. The issue here is governance and enforcement; they’re paying what the HMRC has told them to pay, and which of us would actually volunteer to do more than that? I do agree that the tax regime needs to change but while it’s as it is, I can’t blame Amazon for taking advantage of it. They’re not evil.
mikethep says
Hate clothes shopping, partly because I never seem to look good in anything. I buy most of my clothes in chazzas, and if something doesn’t work/fit it just goes back again.
I bought a brand new Avirex leather flight jacket, top of the range, as worn by in the RSPCA shop. Cruelty to animals, eh? $40, it was. Bit of a steal, except I can’t ever wear it, too hot. Couldn’t pass it up though.
johnw says
Yeah! Clothes shopping is one area that the Internet really does come into it’s own. I just order a few sizes of a few different things, try them on when they arrive and take or send back the ones I don’t want. No trying to make a quick decision and no more changing rooms!
Gatz says
Well, I am saying that I enjoy town centres and I also think that thriving town centres are to the benefit of everyone there and should be encouraged. I don’t know if public funding goes into town centres to support retail rather than for pavements, policing and so on, but if there is public funding then that’s all to the good. Like other areas such as sports and arts which are not appreciated by everybody the benefit to enough people is great enough that maintaining town centres should be regarded as a political as well as civic priority. The alternative is parades of empty shops and people who do like to shop gong to dedicated venues. If that’s their thing then fine, but Lakeside may be the soulless, Ballardian warning of what the future could hold. (I’m sure a lot of people like Lakeside, I’m just using as an example of one of the most disturbing places I have ever seen.)
Tiggerlion says
I’d happily go into ‘town’ every weekend and spend my money. Unfortunately, parking is a problem and expensive. The prices in the shops, especially the independents, are on the high side. That’s no surprise give the state of business rates in this country. Warehouses are much cheaper to run and councils seem to give out of town a free pass for parking.
johnw says
Surely, most parking at out of town areas are paid for and maintained by the operator of the site. In fact, I’m sure the planning conditions for most of these sites would require them to provide an amount of free parking.
JustB says
I live in a town whose centre is properly thriving, but then we have tourists by the literal tens of coachloads every day from March to September. But in fairness to our (extremely Tory) council, they really plough that tourism money back into the community: the town is spotless, with great parks, lovely planting, public art and lots of perks to being a resident: a residents-only card that gets you free entry into Windsor Castle, lots of good local discounts, and – most germanely to this conversation – radically subsidised parking. It costs me 50p for two hours if I choose the right car parks. Compare this to the private car park under Waitrose whose prices make the Comanche look like amateur scalpers: 2 hours will run you the better part of four quid.
Interestingly, rents and business rates in the town centre are fucking eye-watering: a small central shop is £50k a year just in rent. And yet they’re all full, and not exclusively with chains. We’ve even got our very own locally-founded department store.
Somehow, Windsor council seem to be doing something right. And yet, Maidenhead’s town centre – same council – is on its arse. Go figure.
DogFacedBoy says
Maidenhead need to kick out it’s MP – who is that again?
JustB says
It’s a real shame. Maidenhead has potential. Maybe crossrail will zhuzh it up a bit.
DogFacedBoy says
They keep promising to knock most of it down and start again.
Those lovely bombs needed to drop a few miles west
The Good Doctor says
Some interesting comments. I do think the rents are a big part of it as Dave A says. landlords seem content to keep shops empty and wait for a tenant that might never come rather than lower the price.
My local town Altrincham was really on its arse. it’s is a relatively affluent area but has stiff competition from an enormo-mall (the hideous Trafford Centre), out of town retail and let a massive Tesco land right next to the town centre which didn’t help.
It’s since converted its old market hall into an independent food and drink place which has been hugely successful and other independent bars and eateries have sprung up around it. Consequently the town seems busier and some of the empty retail units are very gradually filling up, there’s a mix of chain stores and cheapo shops but not so much in terms of indie retailers. There’s some way to go, there is surplus retail space and some of it would probably be better off replaced by flats. Like most town centres it’s too big for the way people shop these days and needs to refocus a bit – but nevertheless it’s a revival of sorts.
P.s. Gotta love Wilko! It’s like having Woolworths back, complete with pick n’ mix. If only they sold 7″ singles!
davebigpicture says
I was thinking of renting a bigger warehouse unit a couple of years ago. The agent told me that the rent wasn’t negotiable as the estate was part of a portfolio and reducing the rent reduced the value of the portfolio. If true, this could explain why some landlords leave shop units empty.
I didn’t rent the bigger unit. Where we are doesn’t incur business rates as it’s too small. The extra rates we would have paid made it too expensive when weighed against the benefit of the larger space and you get nothing when paying business rates, not even your bins emptied. A mate recently had a visit from the rating officer who told him his rates were going up £1000 per month on his very run down unit. He’s moving out.
Moose the Mooche says
As with pubs, I want high streets to exist but I can’t be arsed going to them. I am The Problem.
Dave Ross says
Admire your honesty Moose. The local Facebook page where my gf’s shop is criticized the Nail bars neon sign yet moans about the empty shops. A weekly discussion surrounds how it would be lovely to have a butchers, bakers (we tried selling bread but no-one would pay the extra 50p for a fresh loaf), grocers etc. I’m sure they all update their Facebook profile from Costa or local Tesco. Any independent shop will be dead in 5 years and every High Street will be empty in towns and villages or identical in Cities.
The Good Doctor says
I admire your GFs determination to succeed with her business..and at least she’s got you to cheer her up after a hard day! Sheesh! 😉
Dave Ross says
Point taken but I am mostly repeating all of her frustrations. I would happily give up my office job to help, I make an exceptional BLT but we would be homeless very quickly ☺
slotbadger says
Gaw, I would love a decent BLT. You can’t get a proper one, with juicy smoked back bacon, here in Berlin for love nor money.
Rigid Digit says
Reading Town Centre, beyond the homogenised high street shops and Shopping Centre, is a massive collection of Restaurants, Pubs, Coffee Shops and Charity Shops.
It does boast a very well appointed independent record shop, but it is quite small compared to other places I visit.
The Market is pretty much dead (1 Fruit & Veg stall and a collection of bag stalls, and phone accessories).
There was a pretty big covered market area – that closed some years ago, and whilst the outer edges remain open giving home to about 10 or so small business (including a Cheese shop), there are seemingly no plans to open it up again.
These covered Market Halls appear in many other towns/cities we’ve visited but not Reading? Why not? I’m sure the businesses are out there and that footfall would not be an issue.
Wouldn’t say it’s thriving, but there are regeneration plans in train to get more businesses into the town centre area (rather than out of town Business Parks) which would help footfall in shops and hopefully lead to a more vibrant town centre.
Or it might just result in more Coffee shops – I really don’t think there are enough
pawsforthought says
Traditionally our local trade was boot and shoe. Hundreds of factories across the county. There are a lot less of these nowadays, but I thought it would be a good idea if our local council encouraged some (five or six) of them to have a factory outlet in the town centre. This would make it a destination, as in “I need some nice shoes, I know I’ll drive up to Northampton.”
Any idea like this would make a bit of sense, it means our town isn’t just a row of the usual shops and coffee chains. I am sure that the above post about rent and rates gets in the way of these sort of ideas.
Gatz says
No offence, but I thought the centre of Northampton was terrifying when we called by one sunny afternoon last summer. For the only time The Light insisted on locking the doors as we drove away. Pretty much anything would be an improvement.
pawsforthought says
Its no worse than other local towns (Bedford, Luton etc) but obviously not as nice as Cambridge, Oxford or as interesting as Leicester. I wouldn’t wander around the town centre late at night, but then again I have no need to.
pawsforthought says
Looks like things are on the up retail wise-
http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/charity-shop-set-to-reopen-following-10-000-face-lift-in-northampton-1-8090653
minibreakfast says
@Beany ‘s already booked his train ticket I bet.
Beany says
*Googles Northampton* @minibreakfast
That’s possible in a day but perhaps an overnight stay to visit nearby chazzas. I have been as far as Llandudno and Barrow-in-Furness from Bolton on a day trip. I just wish Google maps were more accurate when locating charity shops – there are usually twice as many in a town than shown. I use it as my sat nav when on “the hunt”.
Gatz says
A little out of the centre, I see. The charity shops in Northampton weren’t great either, but I did pick up a copy of The Rails first album there so that goes in the credit column.
Pessoa says
Once a year I go back home to the UK and to the folks in Romford, and notice the same problems other posters have mentioned. An allegedly attractive county market town was redesigned in the 60s as a ring road with a shopping centre, as retailing was supposed to be the future , but over the years it became a no-go zone after dark with no thoroughfare or central housing, and is now a downwardly mobile collection of charity shops and outlet stores, as the money has followed the newer, upmarket super malls elsewhere. It’s also frustrating that a town that once had a brewery for nearly 200 years cannot supply a half-decent pub. I know gentrification is a very contentious topic, but some sort of minimal investment or new range of start-ups must be better than ongoing decline.
H.P. Saucecraft says
My home town now is a very small town indeed, walkable from end to end and boasting two sets of traffic lights, and a Tesco Lotus on the outskirts. The Tesco was already here when I arrived eight or so years back, but my wife (who was born here) tells me that it put a lot of local shops and market sellers out of business. The town centre (it’s all centre, really, a few blocks between the temple and the river) remains a pleasingly busy place, with virtually all the shops being independent. The only exceptions are 7-Eleven, which is far from the culture-strangling behemoth you might think, and a real resource, and the opticians. Rents are (by UK standards) dirt cheap, but turnover and profit for most businesses is just above subsistence level. My wife’s little general store has seen business drop by two thirds in the last five years, and this is the prevailing “business model”. Some shops manage to do business for years, others come and go virtually overnight. Property developers (we’re talking shops with living accomm. upstairs, not office blocks or malls) tend to lose money, as the prime locations for retail are all within a three-block sweet spot, and new developments outside that rarely get the walk-ins they need to survive, and either remain empty or are sporadically occupied. There is a covered market, but this was hit hardest by Tesco, and is only about two-thirds rented.
It’s a rural area, so there’s no high-end retail at all, unless you count the Chinese-owned gold stores. It’s nearly all basic requirements being met – food, mostly, machinery, cheap clothing, electrical goods, and the ever-busy phone shops. But even in the times of mild recession (hello Thailand, hello world) it’s a fantastic place to live, always something going on, something to see. There’s none of the “urban despair” I’m so conscious of when I go back to the UK, that feeling of the shutters coming down. The place is full of life, business being done out in the open. Maybe business will get better, or get worse before it gets better, but this little town seems to have struck the right balance, keeping most of the people happy most of the time. When I go to Bangkok, a true consumer’s paradise, I can’t wait to come home. It’s not just that I can’t afford the Lamborghini in the window, I don’t want it. I don’t need it. I don’t even want choice any more (how did I want that Starbucks coffee, that Subway sandwich again?) Our house is waaaay out of town – over a whole kilometre from the temple (the true town centre), and I can sit out on the deck and cloudwatch, hearing only birdsong and the occasional car on the road. Nothing lasts, of course, but I’m hoping this outlasts me.
SteveT says
My old next door neighbour owned 12 or 13 McDonalds Franchises. We spoke about Five Guys the upmarket burger chain. They had one in Solihull and decided to open another in the Birmingham Bullring. It is in a prime spot yet allegedly and straight from this McDonalds man who knows the cost of retailing the rent for this place is £1 million per annum. No wonder the bloody burgers are expensive (more than double the US price).
Also there is the question of Peppercorn rent where the prestigious chains get a discounted rent to add attractiveness to a new retail development. Supposedly Harvey Nicholls benefitted from this at the Mailbox.
Mike_H says
Yes, I’ve heard about this practice.
The big chains get subsidised by the independent retailers, effectively.