Just woken with a start by the Radio 4 news. I have teenage Ariana Grande fans in my house, thankfully not fans enough to travel to Manchester on a school night.
My thoughts go out to the families missing loved ones this morning.
Musings on the byways of popular culture
Just woken with a start by the Radio 4 news. I have teenage Ariana Grande fans in my house, thankfully not fans enough to travel to Manchester on a school night.
My thoughts go out to the families missing loved ones this morning.
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JustB says
No words, really. My girls are only just too young for this kind of thing – it seems very close to home, not that that makes it any more terrible.
I’ve got nothing. I can’t even begin to comprehend what some families are having to deal with today. So incredibly sad.
bricameron says
Minefield. Empathy.
Gatz says
An old work colleague, Facebook friend and former member of the massive posted on FB today to say that his wife and daughter, along with other friends, were heading home safe after being at the concert. I have never met his wife or daughter, or so far as I know anyone else who was there (my girlfriend’s daughter is at Manchester Uni, but the chance of her being at an Ariana Grande gig is slim), but the lurch that gave my stomach, jut knowing what could have happened …
We can look to those who are helping, know that common humanity won’t be beaten … but what are we to think of someone who perpetrated atorocity on a place which they must have known would largely be packed with young girls?
Beany says
The nightmare of every parent. Many will have accompanied their young children into their first ever concert. Many would be waiting outside, desperately hoping they would find them in the departing throng.
Manchester Arena is familiar to most people in the area. Built as part of Manchester’s audacious Olympics bids and Commonwealth Games success, it was the for a time the largest in Europe.
It has now been confirmed as a suicide bomber with a terrible death toll of 22. The reports suggest it happened just as the show ended. Five minutes later and the toll would be much higher. Locally we will all know someone affected by this tragedy. Even I was inundated with texts & messages throughout the early morning from concerned friends in the USA & Far East and I have never heard of Ariana Grande. Despicable act that brings out the best in people and Manchester will pull together again.
Twang says
I just spent 8 months working in Manchester and staying in a hotel which was frequently used by gig goers. I imagine many of my colleagues would have had kids there. I can’t begin to imagine what they are going through. They were kids FFS. You can rationalise a solder being killed in action. Tragic though it is, it sort of makes sense. This was simply a psychotic act designed to hurt the most vulnerable and terrorise everyone else. What sort of scum bags do this? Trouble is, I can’t see how it is ever going to end.
JustB says
I know what you mean, but statistically the Troubles saw far more terrorist action in Britain, everyone saw it as intractable and unending, but it ended. Hold onto hope, old chap.
Twang says
I agree but the Troubles were somehow contained, with an understandable set of outcomes. They were awful but as events showed, there was the opportunity for good leadership at the end of the day. This is more like the fucking hydra. Except that there are too many heads to cut off.
JustB says
Perhaps. I hope that @carl is right below in his very wise post: eventually the community who the terrorists purport to represent will become totally sickened and tired of their name being used in this way and there will be no appetite for it.
My worry is that as our society apparently careens off down a railroad of heightened intolerance, the chance of that happening becomes slimmer. I don’t want to politicise this unnecessarily, but I can’t think that painting Muslims as a whole with the terror brush is likely to help, and our media and our right wing do seem keen on doing that…
Twang says
I guess the right wing press will do what it does, but what depresses me is that the roots of this incident don’t lie here, they come from who knows where – with the Internet, they are pervasive now. Also let’s remember this is something which has been intermittently happening since the 10th century and I have little hope it is going to get any better any time soon. I don’t think it’s about all Muslims of course, but it is about Islam and I think the only way forward is some leadership from that group, either locally or via whatever constitutes Islamic leadership…I confess to ignorance here, I don’t know where that is.
JustB says
Edit: I had a whole post about Wahaabism and its relation to Islam here, but it doesn’t feel like the right time.
I just feel terribly sad for the victims and their families.
fentonsteve says
This.
Mike_H says
Have to agree the Wahaabist view of Islam is a danger to everyone. Including the Muslims who are (often unwillingly) subjected to it.
The Wahaabists are in control of far too many mosques and the moderates seem powerless to stop it. They are actively trying to eradicate all but their own strict view of Islam from Muslim society and impose it on the world at large, with the help of vast sums of Saudi money. The terrorists of AlQuaeda and IS are intent on all-out war to achieve this aim.
“For more than two centuries, Wahhabism has been Saudi Arabia’s dominant faith. It is an austere form of Islam that insists on a literal interpretation of the Koran. Strict Wahhabis believe that all those who don’t practice their form of Islam are heathens and enemies.”
dai says
Don’t think any IRA attack on the mainland had as many casualties as this one.
davebigpicture says
I think the injured numbers were higher for the Birmingham pub bombings. Fatalities were lower.
JustB says
Not by much, either. And when you look at the laundry list of attacks in the 70s and 80s, it makes you so grateful that – as appalling as they are – 7/7, Lee Rigby, Jo Cox and this are the only ones I can really remember this century. I may be missing some, but terrorism itself is much less a part of the fabric of British life than it used to be. Or so it seems to me, anyway.
dai says
Well ok. Nevertheless the targets for the Birmingham (and Guildford) bombings were soldiers, not teenagers (and pre-teens). This was the case for most of the IRA mainland campaign (not that that excuses it).
fentonsteve says
I think the tipping point in withdrawing of public ‘support’ of the IRA bombings were Harrods in 1983 and, especially, Omagh in 1998. In both, the majority of victims were the general public rather than the security services.
I can’t understand the mindset of yesterday’s atrocity. I hope the sense of public disgust makes the perpertrators reconsider their strategy.
Most of all, I hope the families of the 22 victims find some peace. I’m not sure I would be able to if I were in their shoes.
JustB says
Plus Birmingham wasn’t soldiers, was it? Guildford was, but not B’ham – or at least that’s my understanding. 21 ordinary people out for a drink.
Not that it matters. There’s no context that can excuse or mitigate this kind of thing.
Unfortunately, Steve, I’m concerned that the public outrage is what these people want. I deleted my earlier post about the mindset of Wahaabism, but their strict and – many would say – interpretation of the Islamic concept of oneness, or tawhid, leads them to quite Manichean conclusions about Us and Them. Basically, the influence of Western society = evil, as far as they’re concerned. That’s where the concept of The Great Satan comes from: this idea that deviation from the intense monotheism of Wahaabi Islam places you beyond the pale of acceptable humanity. To these people, any strike against the infidel is justified because they are Other.
It seems so alien to me that failure to adhere to a nutjob interpretation of a religion makes us all fair game. I can’t imagine how a person can see these families, these little girls, and think – good job. Beyond horrible.
dai says
I stand corrected. I do believe civilian targets were not generally favoured by the provisional IRA. I would say that apart from the bombings in 2005 this is the worst terrorist atrocity to be carried out in England in modern times. At least people in pubs are (generally) adults. And it does matter that teenagers and kids were targeted.
Will say no more, my heart goes out to all the victims and their families.
SteveT says
@dai not picking an argument with you but there were no soldiers killed in the Birmingham pub bombings. They were ordinary Brummies out for a drink with their mates. I was in Birmingham City Centre that night and will never forget it. The police were collecting body parts in sacks.
Terrorism in any form and perpetrated by anyone is a mindless evil. Resolving it is the challenge of our times.
dai says
Yes, I corrected myself. Sorry for my misunderstanding.
Fintinlimbim says
I, too, was in Birmingham City Centre that night. I’d been to the theatre to see Spike Milligan.
It was messy.
Carl says
Terrorism does end, eventually. The group can be entirely eliminated, the leaders killed by security forces, the group infiltrated by security services, the community from which the group springs becomes so disgusted that there is no longer a base of support, a compromise is reached. Sometimes we don’t know exactly how it has ended.
Anarchist terror around the world lasted for more than 40 years from the late 19th century (high profile attacks included the deaths of Czar Alexander II, French President Carnot, US President William McKinley plus many other bombing attacks against civilians) into the 1920s. The exact cause of its demise is unclear, but it is likely the economic conditions improved to the extent that the terrorist cause evaporated.
Meanwhile I’m disgusted, sickened and saddened by what happened last night. People leaving home and work t go to a gig. As well as those who are bereaved I pity those people who don’t yet know what has happened to their loved ones and who must be in the most wretched torment. It is so horrible.
Kaisfatdad says
Fascinating comment on the anarchist movement. In their day they really were the fear of civilised society.
Joseph Conrad wrote about them in The Secret Agent. Not perhaps his best novel but he certainly captured the mood of the time.
paulwright says
Conrad’s book is the evidence that this has been around a long time. Americans often cannot understand Sadiq Khan’s comments that this is part of being in a major city, but it has been for 150 years. Not saying it is unavoidable, but so far we have not been able to avoid it.
I was living in Manchester when the IRA blew up half the Arndale Centre. 21 years ago apparently. The aggressors have changed, but the pointless violence hasnt.
Beezer says
Yes. Didn’t it morph into ‘Syndicalism’ and allied itself to labour movements to foment endless strikes? To bring down the state and capitalism.
The revolution sparked by one great anarchic deed could never happen given that the person in the street was averse to giving up what little they did have in the hope of a theoretical ungoverned utopia not guaranteed.
paulwright says
The Rand Corporation published research on how terrorist groups end. Basically 2 options (3 if you cant not having ended yet) – Joining the Political Process (IRA, ETA etc.), or local police arresting the perpetrators.
About half of the terrorist groups ended (1968 to 2006 data).Military action only accounted for 7% of the ends.
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2008/RAND_MG741-1.pdf
Of course this is facts, and therefore not what political extremists (such as the Daily Mail) want to hear.
Carl says
My notes on how terrorism ends are a précis of Prof. Audrey Kurth Cronin’s research. She published a book How Terrorism Ends: Understanding the decline and demise of terrorist campaigns.
However if you have an hour to spare, you don’t need to read Prof. Cronin’s book, but can hear a lecture where she addresses the subject.
Kaisfatdad says
Thanks @Carl. How useful to listen to someone who actually knows what they are talking about and takes a broader, calmer historical perspective.
Will try and listen to the whole lecture later when I have a spare moment.
paulwright says
thanks
Kaisfatdad says
Unspeakably tragic. I too was awoken by the awful news that there had been a bomb attack in Manchester. When I heard then it was an Ariana Grande concert, I was gutted
Any attack on a large public event is a heinous crime. But to target one where the majority of the audience are children and teenagers.
Evil is not a word that I use very often. But it is the only that is appropriate this morning.
Vulpes Vulpes says
This is the result of indifference. This is the result of intolerance. This is the result of ignorance. All that is then needed is time and a twisted ideology, and one or more persons will emerge, capable of this awful madness. We can only fight back collectively, with reason and with compassion. We need to hold our leaders to those ideals.
SteveT says
I think it goes without saying that our leaders hold those ideals. It would be incomprehensible that any leader in the West didn’t. The fear is that with each successive act of terror that those ideals somehow become diluted. That is of course exactly what the perpetrators wish for – discord at the very top of our political systems.
I don’t think that we are likely to see an end to this extremism any time soon but can only hope that moderate Islam plays a more prominent role in putting their views across and guiding their young away from choosing the path of radicalism.
Vulpes Vulpes says
Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Bag-ism, Drag-ism, who-cares-ism? They all pre-date the age of reason. As a species, through weakness and ignorance we have invented a many-headed cultural worm that threatens to tear our communities apart. Perhaps there is no place for “moderate” Islam or moderate anything in this world, because the existence of a “moderate” form of a faith also implies the existence of an immoderate form of the faith. Islam certainly needs to decide if it wants to co-exist with an enlightened world or take it over. If it’s the former, it needs to rid itself of a lot of doctrinal baggage and deluded men in beards, and preferably soon. If it’s the latter, I predict a riot.
Sitheref2409 says
Hold on a wee sec there.
Belief in intangible beings does predate the age of reason. Now, I’m not sure if the AoR has a defined date range, but I’m going to argue that Christianity, post dating Ancient Greece, comes after man’s ability to reason.
Vulpes Vulpes says
” in every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. he is always in alliance with the Despot abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. it is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them: and to effect this they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man, into mystery & jargon unintelligible to all mankind & therefore the safer engine for their purposes. ”
Thomas Jefferson. 1814.
Markg says
As someone who is looking forward to seeing U2 and Coldplay this July in Dublin i am now feeling nervous about the prospect of something similar occuring….feeling so numb and had to turn off the news for a few hours….do others do the same when this type of thing happens?
davebigpicture says
I’m supposed to be going to the O2 next Sunday. I’m a bit nervous and if my lad doesn’t want to go then we won’t but I don’t believe you should stop doing things because of events like this. OOAA.
Markg says
The thought of not going to any gigs ever again is one i cant contemplate!Many friendships are being sustained through common love of music,so many great shared memories!
niallb says
My wife & I are at 2 Paul Rodgers gigs this weekend. We didn’t even consider binning them – these fuckers are not going to win, and continuing to do the things we love is a demonstration of defiance, if nothing else. My musician friends are devastated, nay furious, that this shit, like Paris, has targeted music, the most innocent and emotional of artistic pursuits.
GO to your gigs, your clubs, your comedy shows, your exhibitions, your recitals, your shows…. laugh, shout, scream, jump up and down, anything to show these idiots they cannot win.
SteveT says
a big up @niallb – my wife’s German cousin was with us at the weekend and we went to see Simple Minds at the Symphony Hall. She flew home yesterday and sent a text this am saying ‘it could have been us’. The truth is it could have been anyone and that is why we must all stick together in our fight to rid this blight from the planet.
Would it stop my doing anything or going anywhere? Not a cat in hells chance.
fentonsteve says
As Bob says up there, terrorist acts in the UK are rare events. Still too often for my liking, but rare.
Statistically speaking*, you’re more likely to go in a road accident on the way there. Or falling over while putting on your trousers. Or by cleaning out your toaster.
(*) Must check RoSPA data later
johnw says
It occurred to me a couple of years ago that people exiting a venue, all into a public insecure area, all at the same time, whether it’s a gig or a game was an ideal and easy target. It hasn’t made any difference to my gig going since and, now someone’s done it, it won’t make any difference now. I could list several London venues where a well placed explosion on the pavement outside 5 minutes after the lights come on would cause carnage but I won’t because I’m sure the security forces already have their own list.
Personally, in the light of other attacks, I’m amazed it hasn’t happened before.
One thing I feel odd about is that, purely as someone who often puts himself in crowded places, I’m a potential victim, but I really have no idea what my potential killer’s point is.
Bamber says
Not wishing to be insensitive or to ignite a different sort of discussion, I would see an attack in Dublin as less likely to be a priority for ISIS, given their tendency to attack former colonial powers – France, Belgium, UK. Were they to strike in Ireland, I’d expect it to be an event or building with a connection to these countries or the USA. I’ve heard people speculating that Donald Trump’s golf course in County Clare or Shannon airport, where US military aircraft refuel might be targeted. Worrying times.
ernietothecentreoftheearth says
I suspect that the tendancy is for attacks to happen where the attackers live, know well or have connections. That makes Dublin and Ireland a less likely target.
Vincent says
Trouble is, moderate Muslims are sometimes murdered, and the murderer celebrated: Asad Shah’s killer thought he was doing the right thing murdering an apostate who proposed a more ecumenical approach, and there are plenty who agree with this robust defence of values. Not so much a “religion of peace”, as a “religion of intimidation”. Yes, I know Christianity has been like this in the past, and still occasionally boils over into it again.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/09/tanveer-ahmed-jailed-for-murder-glasgow-shopkeeper-in-sectarian-attack
Mike_H says
They are Islam’s equivalent to the Puritans in 17th Century England, who imposed their strict version of Protestantism but were soon ditched by the general populace. Only Daesh are far more extreme and better armed. They hope to provoke an all-out war between Islam (their version, of course) and the rest of the world. They do it with the expectation of winning it.
As far as their justifications go, first and foremost they see their actions as necessary to bring about the Caliphate. If they die trying to do that they are automatically saved as martyrs. Unbelievers and Muslims of moderate inclinations have it coming because they are all enemies of Islam. If a “good” Muslim happens to be killed as a result of their actions, they become a martyr too. Win-win all the way in their eyes.
JustB says
As so often, The West Wing:
“Islam is to Islamist terrorism as Christianity is to KKK.” Except, unfortunately for all of us, the Wahaabists are interested in a rather more evangelical, missionary brand of hate, ignorance and murder.
metal mickey says
TWW is my go-to after many of these kinds of events, especially that post 9/11 episode – my favourite exchange parsed below:
GIRL – You know a lot about terrorism?
SAM – I dabble.
GIRL – What are you struck by most?
SAM – It’s 100% failure rate.
GIRL – Really?
SAM – Not only do terrorists always fail at what they’re after, they pretty much always succeed in strengthening whatever it is they’re against.
BOY – What about the IRA?
SAM – The Brits are still there. The Protestants are still there. Basque extremists have been staging terrorist attacks in Spain for decades with no result. Left Wing Red Brigades from the 60s and 70s, from the Bader-Meinhoff gang in Germany to the Weatherman in the U.S. have tried to take over capitalism. You tell me. How’s capitalism doing?
GIRL – Can I go back to what you were saying at the beginning? About it being 100% ineffective.
SAM – Yeah.
GIRL – They’re still doing it anyway.
SAM – Yeah.
GIRL – They’re not frustrated by the failure?
SAM – No.
GIRL – Well, what do you call a society that has to just live everyday with the idea that the pizza place you’re eating in can just blow up without any warning?
SAM – Israel.
Sniffity says
She For Whom I Cook is quite cross – less than 24 hours and there’s a 24 minute Youtube clip up already claiming that it’s a hoax, filled with crisis actors fooling the sheeple…..aaaaarrrgh!
BigJimBob says
My daughter had a friend at the gig. After some worried phoning she found she was fine, but understandably shaken. Both daughters have been to gigs there. Frightening.
I am getting off Twitter today because on logging on I was shocked to see “journalists” making millage out of this. Growing their followers on the back of a tragedy…not good.
Moose the Mooche says
Expect This Week on Thursday night to begin with another embarrassing monologue from Andrew Neil, directed at the many millions of young jihadists who watch late night political discussion programmes on BBC1.
That’s learning ’em!
Vincent says
Life carries on. celebrate western values and be less diffident about the hard-fought freedoms we had. No platform for fascists. Might be sensible to be less liberal regarding the illiberal, though, unless you like giving the keys of your house to a burglar.
ruff-diamond says
I found out last night that my eldest niece was at the concert with a friend. Thank god both are safe and well.
dai says
I also found out that a friend’s daughter was there. She was safe, but naturally extremely upset and had to get a later train home today than planned. The bastards at Arriva trains charged her 70 pounds for a new ticket. Outrageous.
Markg says
Cant even imagine what it must have been like waiting for that phone call….it makes me glad i joined this site to read some intelligent and impassioned comments…personally felt numb all day.
Dave Ross says
I’m still not sure what to feel. Anger, frustration, sadness, hopelessness, more anger. So many things have lead us here and as Bob has said now is not the time to air grievances but for fucks sake human race sort it out……….
Blue Boy says
This happened in the city in which I live, and I haven’t been able to get it out of my head all day. I’m angry, sad, baffled, despondent and scared – for all my rational knowledge that these incidents are statistically few and far between I’m left fearing for our society and who will be next.
Kids, and parents, for goodness sake. People out to enjoy a concert, to have a good time. I simply cannot conceive of how someone brings themselves to do something like this – to have so completely lost any human empathy that this seems like a good idea to them. It is unutterably horrible. Those poor families.
Mike_H says
This is what extremist ideologies do to people who are already out of balance.
Proportion, empathy, rationality just fly out of the window and this sort of thing is what is left.
bricameron says
My Facebook feed from relatives and friends from the UK are full of Invective for Muslims and immigrants.
Ignorance abounds and I don’t know how to counter it without being labelled an apologist. It’s depressing.
retropath2 says
2 songs to listen to the words of, both warnings. (Unless you think they aren’t ironic. In which case I worry about you.)
Vulpes Vulpes says
Bobby Z made a few notes about this sort of thing, some time back:
Oh my name it ain’t nothin’
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I was taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side
Oh, the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh, the country was young
With God on its side
The Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War, too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I was made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side
The First World War, boys
It came and it went
The reason for fighting
I never did get
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don’t count the dead
When God’s on your side
The Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And then we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now, too
Have God on their side
I’ve learned to hate the Russians
All through my whole life
If another war comes
It’s them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side
But now we got weapons
Of chemical dust
If fire them, we’re forced to
Then fire, them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God’s on your side
Through many a dark hour
I’ve been thinkin’ about this
That Jesus Christ was
Betrayed by a kiss
But I can’t think for you
You’ll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.
So now as I’m leavin’
I’m weary as Hell
The confusion I’m feelin’
Ain’t no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
That if God’s on our side
He’ll stop the next war
Markg says
Markg says
Both this and The Neville Brothers made brilliant cover versions…prefer them to BD version but what a song…
The Good Doctor says
Very close to home. I know people who were there, all safe and well thankfully but these are very young people very badly shaken. In a weird way, it helps being in Manchester and just getting on with work while the GMP boot down doors and raid those connected – meanwhile people just go about their business- work to do, Pizzas to eat, pints to drink, sunshine to enjoy – almost all scheduled gigs and events went ahead the next night and rightly so. Pretty much business as usual except that outside my office, endless TV crews point cameras at things, or try and find people willing to provide horrifying graphic detail to fill rolling 24 hour news. They’ll be off to the next catastrophe/tragedy soon. Don’t worry about Manchester, we’ll be fine.
paulwright says
GLW is in Manchester for a conference, and says people are quite determinedly getting on with life.
One day we shall move back – despite being a Yorkshireman it is the place that most feels like home.
Kaisfatdad says
I have quite a soft spot for Ariana Grande’s exuberant pop. Not difficult to see why, like Taylor Swift, she has such a big following among young female fans. I am not surprised to read that she has broken off her tour after the horrific events of Monday evening.
Whether she wrote them herself or not, the comment on her Facebook page is very eloquent.
“broken.
from the bottom of my heart, i am so so sorry. i don’t have words.”
anton says
I’ll be clumsy instead
Gatz says
A colleague asked this morning if I’m scared about the day out I have planned in London tomorrow (two exhibitions, a gig in the evening, and maybe a detour to Uniqlo to check out those Capitol Records t-shirts mentioned on here a week or two ago).
My response is, ‘Not really’, ‘more chance of being hurt in a traffic accident’, ‘changing how you live is letting the bastards win’, and so on. But she is now wary of the Take That gig that she has tickets for, and alarmed at the thought of an evening out which should have brought her nothing but joy and excitement. Grim days.
badartdog says
Exactly – despite all the ‘we stand with Manchester’, ‘a city united’ and spontaneous singalongs of Oasis songs (… who better to symbolise unity?) – this was not an attack ON Manchester, it was an attack IN Manchester.
It was an attack ON fun. On entertainment, culture, singing dancing, teenyboppers painting eyebrows on their faces and screaming and singing along to pop music, whilst their parents wait outside, nervously hoping their kids will come out by the right exit. It was an attack on family, on independence, on love.
I was there with my own 8 year old in January to see Marvel Universe live. 20 of my pupils were at the concert on Monday – all safe, thankfully. The first victim named was a student at a sixth form college many of our kids go on to.
This was an attack on life. On going out and having fun – on a school night! We must not change our plans, change our ways, change our tastes. We must party harder, scream louder and keep on dancing.
bricameron says
Spot on!