on what to do about Brexit. Unfortunately it’s to vote down the current plan and a determination not to rule anything out. After 2 years. That’s a relief, then
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MC Escher says
Sorry, I forgot: also to back a new referendum.
Please suggest something for McDonnell – sorry, Rees-Mogg… I mean *Corbyn*… to suggest.
Twang says
But not a vote on remaining. Oh, according to the shadow Brexit secretary that will be an option. Or not, possibly. However a Labour Brexit will be a jobs first Brexit, retaining all the benefits of the single market from outside it. Not sure if anyone has discussed the with the EU. Honestly I don’t know how they stand up and say this stuff.
Timbar says
The Labour position in full…
Black Celebration says
That’s the problem – this isn’t the Labour position on Brexit. A better clip would be the potter’s wheel intermission piece. Or the test card.
Dave Ross says
This comment comes from someone who voted leave but now is so bored with the whole thing that I no longer care whether we stay or leave. As long as we do one or the other with no grey areas. In or out. Shit or get off the pan etc. However I am confused by the apparent fear of a majority of senior politicians to refuse to back a second referendum. Do they know something the #FBPE brigade don’t or are they scared of just how many people still want to leave? It is clear even to me that to stay is the easier option for all concerned and would be the most popular Twitter choice. What don’t we know? *Remember all my views come with very little or no research. Like the majority of the population. There i go again….
chiz says
I think you’re going to be disappointed Dave, if you’re hoping for a no-grey-area In or Out. Those are probably the two least likely options at the moment.
Best we can hope for is two more years of us asking for cake while demanding not to pay for cake. If not that, we get half a cake, don’t get to choose what flavour, and pay for a whole one. Or we get a bunch of Twinkies and shout HA HA HA CAKE!!! WE GOT CAKE!!!! YUM YUM YUM! until be believe it.
Dave Ross says
Thanks @chiz I love cake…..
MC Escher says
Oh and apologies for the rogue apostrophe in the title. Don’t know what came over me.
mikethep says
Say what you like about Nigel Farage, at least he gets his apostrophes right. I blame the jumped-up insurance salesman with delusions of relevance.
bobness says
I love a man who know his its.
SteveT says
If there is a general election we will have a choice between Mrs Indecisive and Mr Muddle. Roy Hargreaves needs to quickly invent a Mr Bury your head in the sand.
Twang says
You think TM is indecisive? Seems to me she’s very clear about what she wants to do. Problem is no one agrees with her.
SteveT says
Or even Roger Hargreaves but he us dead.
Never knew that.
mikethep says
I voted Remain – or at least I think I did, I have no evidence that my postal vote sent from Oz arrived in time. If, however, I had ever felt that we were led by a government with a clear vision of what happened next, had a plan and spoke with one voice, I might just have accepted the inevitable. As it is, there seems to be no inevitable, except the inevitable that Labour would be ladling out fudge in industrial quantities.
Since I live not 5 minutes from the M20 and the Shuttle, and 20 minutes from Dover, I will be well placed to observe what happens next if this unbelievable shitshow isn’t headed off.
MC Escher says
Watching the – let’s call them highlights – on C4 news, they seem to be having a bit of a public nervous breakdown.
Corbyn just won’t commit to a statement of What They Will Actually Do. And it’s been like that since the referendum.
atcf says
They need to back a second vote. The membership (I’m one though not a Corbynite) are overwhelmingly for it, if the leadership aren’t going to come across as “meet the new boss, same as the old boss” then they have to listen, or they could be swept out as suddenly as they arrived.
There’s no guarantee that Remain would win (though I think it would), but when it all goes tits up after Brexit, Labour would at least be able to say “we told you so.” Not very satisfying, but it would stand them in good stead for the first post-Brexit election.
MC Escher says
Thanks for that, that’s useful to on me and perhaps explains their reluctance up to now to get off the fence.
Lando Cakes says
I’m all for a People’s Vote, one that includes a ” now that we’ve seen what a catastrophe this is, let’s just Remain” option.
I’m not sure it’s practical though. It would need a Parliamentary Bill. Who would draw that up, allocate it legislative time and get it through Parliament? That’s the governments job.
Blue Boy says
Starmer was clear that if the PM comes back with a deal which they believe is a bad one they won’t vote to support it. The Tories have been trying to suggest that If Labour refuse to support the deal, and/or call for a second referendum they are being unpatriotic and undemocratic, and that somehow the shambles that would ensue will be their fault. I think Labour are right to call their bluff on that and I get the impression that the governments attempts to blame everyone except themselves are falling on stony ground…
dai says
When did the Tories make up their mind what to do?
MC Escher says
Good point. Unfortunately this thread is not about the Toroes, it’s about Labour and their recent conference. 😉
bobness says
My small political insights lead me to believe that there are enough non-Corbyn aligned Labour MPs who will vote a decent deal through, with the government, that it won’t be a problem.
Needs to be a decent deal for the country though.
Lando Cakes says
It needs to pass Keir Starmer’s 6 tests. I don’t think any significant number of Labour MPs will vote for it otherwise. These are:
1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU?
2. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?
3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?
4. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?
5. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime?
6. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that nothing May comes up with will pass those tests.
David Kendal says
Surely 2 can only be met by staying in the EU? You can’t leave a club and get the same benefits as you had. So this is twaddle. The Labour (or Corbynite) line, seems to be vote down whatever Theresa May proposes, then no deal, chaos, mysteriously an election is called and Corbyn becomes Prime Minister (the same line bascially as Johnson and Rees-Mogg, with just their names lined up for PM instead).
All very well, if you are insulated by your MP’s salary and ability to fix up jobs for your family with your mates – not so great if you actually work for companies or organisations that are heavily dependent on EU links. i just hope there are genuine patriots in all parties who will act in the country’s interest – not those of the dishonest chancers who dominate their parties.
Twang says
It’s another Keir Starmer fudge to make it look like they have a position when they haven’t because Labour is as divided as the Tories on this. The membership is split and now we see the leadership is too. They got away with it in the last election where people believed lifelong EU hater Corbyn was pro EU by some sleight of hand, but they can’t get away with it for ever.
Lando Cakes says
The membership is most certainly not split.
chiz says
This is the bit I can’t understand. The Labour leadership seem content let the country fall off the cliff so they can pick up the pieces after an election. But as it’s the least well off that will suffer most from a hard Brexit, surely that’s a betrayal of the people Labour ought to care for. Is it that they feel the poverty and suffering is a price worth paying, because the rich will suffer too? Achieving equality not by lifting the poor up, but by bringing the rich down, or driving them away? It seems bizarre, especially as the PLP, the CLPs, Labour voters and even many Corbynites want to remain.
Twang says
Ah but it’s all about power. Old Soviet/Venezuela admiring Trots like McDonnell and Milne know that gaining power is what’s important. It’s a long term play. Suffering for the masses is justifiable in support of the long term goal. Have a look at how the Russian population got on after the revolution. Corbyn is different I think – he’s a West hating Trot too but what he likes is preaching simple homilies to people who already agree with him. He’s less of a strategist, and, as we learned today, only really functions in the afternoon. But he’ll be side lined if they get into power – McDonnell already has previous for this play as we know.
Lando Cakes says
The answer is that Labour has been taken over by imbeciles. Indeed, I seem to recall that there were plenty of people here praising Corbyn when the initial act of self-immolation took place.
ernietothecentreoftheearth says
The best thing about condition 2 is that it’s the full benefits of the single market, but without havkng the freedom of movement. Something tells me that is unlikely.
Lando Cakes says
Indeed. It was Starmer pulling a fast one on the Corbyn cult, I think.
Gary says
I don’t really understand that, Lando. How d’ya mean?
Lando Cakes says
I don’t think that they appreciated that the 6 tests can only be met by staying in the EU.
davebigpicture says
One of them was calling for a general strike to force a general election (that Labour wouldn’t win). What with Trump over the pond, some days I don’t believe what I’m hearing.
Jackthebiscuit says
I a with you DBP, a general strike will really make the British electorate rush out & vote for the party that called the strike in the first place.
As a lifelong Labour voter/supporter I really do despair.
Lando Cakes says
Yes. And the speech praising the Militant-led Labour council of the mid-80s. These people have no memory of that time, of course.
mikethep says
From the excellent Richard Littler on Twitter.
Moose the Mooche says
I’d never guess that guy was a lefty. They walk among us undetected…
hubert rawlinson says
I was at an AGM last year where he was the guest speaker, as I recall he was all for Brexshit as it was an opportunity to take back control for ‘the people’.
Mind you, you have to get voted in first.
thecheshirecat says
I’ll have you know I have stood on a platform next to our Tosh, for ’tis he, leading a conference in singing The Red Flag.
Moose the Mooche says
Tosh?
Legalise it!
thecheshirecat says
Sadly, even if they legalise it, it would still be proscribed under the Railway Drugs and Alcohol policy. We can’t even nip out for a crafty cocodamol.
retropath2 says
Confess I wondered, @thecheshirecat , as I learnt who he was, whether he was a chum of yours.
Gatz says
Did he do the first section himself then yell, ‘OK, you lot – TAKE IT!!’?
davebigpicture says
Derek Hatton has applied to rejoin the Labour Party.
Moose the Mooche says
Do people from Liverpool even have to apply these days?
Very brave to have the conference there, I feel. It’s like the Tories having theirs in Chalfont St Giles. Or the 1950s.
Black Celebration says
I was one of those people excited by the Corbyn era and what it promises, if elected. However, I am disappointed that they haven’t gone wholesale into a Brexit reversal policy. Corbyn has decided that the referendum outcome is a done deal and we must respect it. Bollocks to that – I say. The referendum was done by blundering oaf Cameron to sort out divisions in his own party. When he stuffed that up, he walked away – having made things much worse.
A pro-Remain position would have given them free rein to destabilise a very precarious Government at every stage of the Brexit progress. This is exactly what the Opposition is meant to do but on Brexit they have been ineffective and – for heavens sake – Theresa May has been able to look fleetingly like a Primeminister (when she doesn’t look absolutely terrified).
It’s an open goal for Labour but it’s too late now. I do hope for a November election because I do think Labour under Corbyn would be as close to a revolution that the Brits will ever have – and this will be good for the UK, whatever happens in Europe.
The Labour voters that passionately want Brexit have UKIP to cater for their needs. They will be replaced by the Lib Dem/Blairite middle classes.
Gary says
I liked Corbyn, but in a crisis like this his incompetence really shows, as does May’s. I have no idea who would be better. Or who’d want the role, apart from people I really don’t want there. People who Cameron allowed to slip through his fingers and have their way, for which history should consider him the most inept of the bunch, arguably the worst PM of all time.
Mike_H says
Yes. Gordon Brown doesn’t seem quite so bad, in comparison.
Is that Theresa May making a strong bid for the title, though?
Gary says
She sure is. She did a great job of explaining exactly how bad things can get. I for one am far clearer on the potential outcome and feel completely reassured thanks to her clear and confident response.
Moose the Mooche says
As with Gordon Brown, I want her to stop being Prime Minister for her own sake. She looks to be in so much pain all the time, as if she’s constantly got Jacob Rees-Mogg pecking at her liver.
Mike_H says
I don’t think she’ll put herself forward for re-election when the next General Election comes around, even if asked (which is doubtful anyway). She’ll be happy to resign.
A complete retirement from active politics is my prediction.
Moose the Mooche says
It’s a tragedy, isn’t it? Just like Brown, her entire life has been focussed on becoming Prime Minister, and then she finally gets the job in the middle of an unending shitstorm that no human could ever cope with. Unlike Gordon Brown, she may have been capable of doing the job reasonably well under different circumstances. We’ll never know.
Maybe it’s better to be like Cameron and not give a monkeys either way.
Twang says
I read a good quote the other day about who was the worst leader, May or Corbyn, the answer being that May is doing an impossible job badly, where Corbyn is doing a fairly easy job worse.
Moose the Mooche says
Is it easy?
Corbyn is a Leaver leading a Remainer party with a Leaver electoral base.
Uh???
Lando Cakes says
History will be kind to Brown, I think. I’m glad that when the financial meltdown struck, we had someone at the helm who kept their nerve.
davebigpicture says
This touched on the reaction to 2008
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bktltl
Lando Cakes says
Thanks, will check that out.
Lando Cakes says
And I’m glad I did, though not exactly cheery listening!
Vulpes Vulpes says
Tsk. You missed the memo. That wasn’t “clear and confident”, that was “strong and stable”. Do pay attention.
fatima Xberg says
Do people really believe they can “remain”?
As far as the EU is concerned, the UK has left – they’re currently only talking about possible ways for trading with the UK after the leave date. As the EU spokesman a couple of days ago said, “It’s up to the UK if they want a deal., and what kind of deal The EU already has a plan if there’s no deal. End of story.”
You can have as many General Elections as you like over there, but I don’t think the EU is going to reverse the Brexit.
mikethep says
I take your point – I can imagine the eyebrow-rolling that would ensue if the decision were reversed, not least in the UK – but Juncker and Tusk have both said it can be. On not quite such favourable terms, I dare say…
Moose the Mooche says
Small question… back when Donald Tusk was running for election in Poland, were Fleetwood Mac involved?
I hear he eventually lost out to Pawel Rumourz.
Mike_H says
Yes, Mike.
Certain exemptions that the UK currently has could be refused, if we were to ask for our Article 50 declaration to be rescinded.
Twang says
We are still in the EU so all we have to do is not leave.
fatima Xberg says
The UK is currently still in the EU, but has already “cancelled the subscription”. Which was accepted by the EU. Both sides are now discussing the terms (but not the date) regarding the cancellation and the time after.
Gary says
I think that the EU countries would be delighted if UK abandoned Brexit ( EU leaders such as Tusk and Juncker have said as much) and that it is still possible (the guy who drafted Article 50 has said so). But time is obviously running out fast.
Martin Hairnet says
There’s a chance that Brexit won’t be finished for a while yet. My guess is that we’re looking at somewhere between the Second Coming and Chinese Democracy.
Moose the Mooche says
In terms of length of time or shitness?
fatima Xberg says
This afternoon the German government presented the economic outlook for the next few years. Among the variables: “whether there’ll be a ‘hard Brexit’ or a ‘soft Brexit’ early next year”. No-one questions the “upcoming disruptions to be caused by Brexit…”
Gary says
As the UK’s leader has declared her refusal to consider a reversal, the EU can’t publicly recognise the possibility. Anyway, they’re doing the right thing preparing for a Brexit. They seem to have done far more preparation than the UK.
Moose the Mooche says
Oh, and after all this we can just have a seat at the top table and throw our weight around and everyone will listen to us and jolly well shape up? It’s like Burt flouncing and then returning to the Afterword.*
In or out, whatever clout we had in Europe is lost.
(*like that would ever happen)
Mike_H says
Just been reading the brand new hot(-ish)-off-the-press Mojo and in particular the previously-unpublished Frank Zappa interview from 1991, in which he states the following:
“Every country has smart people in it; the trouble is that none of these smart people ever go into politics. Which is probably how you can tell that they are smart. Consequently, the people who wind up in the gene pool for the world’s elected officials are a truly frightening bunch of specimens.”
dai says
Interesting quote, but nonsense really when applied to the UK. Although if one looks at the US ….
Mike_H says
The “truly frightening” description is rather OTT for our lot.
I think the rest of it fits pretty well.
Gary says
I’m not agree with you there, Mikey. I find the whole situation of Brexit truly frightening. I find the above clip of May answering the question “How bad can it get?” truly frightening. I find my own answer to that question truly frightening.
Mike_H says
They are a complete shower of shit, Gary, but in comparison to Trump, Kim Jong Un, Erdogan, Putin, Assad etc. they’re nothing.
Vulpes Vulpes says
Bollocks to the Tories. Bollocks to the Labour Party. The referendum was always advisory. Where is the party with the balls to say “Bollocks to the referendum”? Oh, there it is, over there in limbo land, but it’s led by Vince (in)Capable and not only that but Dave’s best mate Claggy is still a player. Sheeee-it, we’ve had it, really. All we can hope is that they don’t close the tunnel; maybe we can live off cheap tourism from the continent. We have a large supply of Brexiteers we could put in the stocks and invite Europeans to laugh at them and throw rotten veg in their direction, that might be a good tourist attraction for a while.
Gary says
An interesting talk (with an equally interesting follow up seperate video of the Q & A) by Jason Hunter out of 3 Blokes In The Pub. He finishes by urging UK citizens to send an email to their local MP once the deal is announced in October, saying simply “I demand to have a vote on the final deal now we know what it is”:
Gary says
My current thoughts are that Theresa May should address the people admitting Parliament cocked up giving the go-ahead to Article 50 while they were too unprepared. She could therefore justify an obligation to ask the people permission to extend Article 50 (which can be done). On the same ballot she would then have to include ‘no extension – out now’ and ‘drop the whole bloody thing’ all in the name of democracy. Whether she’ll do that, and put her country before her political future, is another matter.
Mike_H says
Don’t know that she’s got much of a political future, really. Unless she can miraculously take us out of the EU with such an astoundingly good deal that nobody can seriously oppose it without looking an utter twat. Fat chance of that.
I think she’s hanging on a:) because she doesn’t want to be seen as a quitter and b:) out of a misplaced sense of loyalty to her party. The party that waved her off up shit creek without a paddle in the first place.
ernietothecentreoftheearth says
Of course, Jeremy Corbyn said that the government should have gone for Article 50 the day after the referendum.