I realise this post will be about as popular as a fart in a spacesuit here but I watched the news this morning and feel the need to put this out there. The Junior Doctors protesting and striking all come across as university students who’ve joined the real world and suddenly realised that sometimes you can’t have it all your own way. Daddy is not going to get you out of this one. You’ll have to give up some Friday and Saturday nights because you’ll need to get up and do a shift. Guess what? People are sick at the weekends. The world is in the middle of a financial meltdown and there isn’t enough NHS cash to go around to pay you treble time for a weekend shift. I may have missed the main thrust of this argument and I’m prepared to be shouted down but there was something about their grinning, beep your horn at us, is it still fresher week approach to this that made me sick, maybe I need a Doctor…..
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todayoutof10 says
Hear hear Dave. A 13% basic pay rise – on any terms, in this day and age, is significant.
My daughter is a nurse in London. She tells me often, especially at weekends, they are really under pressure, clinically vulnerable and under threat for their own safety – she works in psychiatric intensive care.
She doesn’t earn any more for Saturday and Sunday shifts. They provide a 24/7 service and every day is the same.
What she tells me of the level of responsibility staff nurses shoulder makes me proud and nervous in equal measure. She often tells weekend doctors what to do, describing them, respectfully, as clueless.
I heard Jeremy Hunt interviewed on 5live this afternoon. He did very well under, what I thought, was partisan badgering.
Change is always hard. But sometimes necessary. ❤️
fortuneight says
I have to flag here that the standard terms for people employed direct by the NHS – which includes nurses – include unsocial hours premiums, and were agreed as part of “Agenda For Change” back in (I think 2008). It’s set out here
http://www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/Employers/Documents/Pay%20and%20reward/AfC_tc_of_service_handbook_fb.pdf (section 2.09 if you are wondering)
If your daughter isn’t getting any premium maybe she’s not employed by the NHS, or her trust have found a way round these terms. The GLW is a qualified nurse, and still works occasional shifts. The ward she works on recently had its hours changed so that it’s now shut at weekends and by 8pm each day. It was done expressly to avoid any premium time payments, and as a result she’s now getting less per shift.
The nurses know that what ever Hunt does to the doctors, they will get next, and Unison are already on the campaign trail, for what little good that will do. Hunt also plans on taking away the salary scales so that each NHS employee can “negotiate” for their increases.
My wife is one of the nurses, with 30+ years experience who has already said “fuck this for a game of soldiers” and moved on to work elsewhere. Sadly not all have that option. But those that do – and the outflow of doctors that will now surely follow – will make the services even more, and unfairly reliant on people light your daughter. Change is hard, but it doesn’t have to be this unfair.
The nurses can see wha
Skirky says
As I understand it, doctors *do* work at the weekends. I believe the issue is that, as with the rest of us, they don’t think that they should change their current contract in order to have a six day shift pattern which includes Saturdays in return for less money than they earn at present. I understand that many of them also have partners, children and hobbies whom they might like to occasionally see.
As I say, I don’t really comprehend the larger issues and have never worked in the health service which, ironically, also perfectly qualifies me for the position of Health Secretary.
mikethep says
I may be wrong about this *please don’t hurt me if I am*, but the near-unanimity among junior doctors, plus a significant majority of the public in support, tells me they have a significant case. Nothing about Jeremy Hunt tells me he has any kind of case at all.
ganglesprocket says
The 13% rise works out as a cut if weekend hours are now to count as normal time. And Junior Doctors do provide a 24/7 service.
And many doctors do think that qualifying as a nurse and then training as a doctor is the correct thing to do. Nursing is a skilled profession. Nurses have knowledge which doctors depend on.
But if this contract is imposed on Junior Doctors then mark my words, your daughter and her colleagues will be next to have some nasty conditions imposed on her.
But hey, those greedy assed doctors eh? Not like Jeremy Hunt. I mean he has no ideological opposition to free healthcare does he? He has no choice? I mean economics and that?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-privatise-nhs-tories-privatising-private-insurance-market-replacement-direct-democracy-a6865306.html#commentsDiv
Here a fact. Under the Labour government the NHS has the highest patient satisfaction levels in its entire history. This “crisis” is the deliberate creation of a shower of nasty bastards who have admitted that they want to flog it but won’t dare put it in a manifesto.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/letwin-nhs-will-not-exist-under-tories-731278.html
But yes, Doctors eh? Shower of bastards the lot of them.
todayoutof10 says
I think we agree on much Ganglesprocket. I think the point – as my daughter’s experience bears out – is that junior doctors are thin on the ground and cover areas they have little experience in at weekends. yes it’s a 24/7 service. But it would seem it’s less clinically effective than the rest of the week. Don’t the mortality rates show that
But I don’t think its a doctors vs nurses issue. I didn’t say I thought doctors were greedy bastards. And, as I said, nurses already have what you referred to as nasty conditions imposed. They already don’t get extra money for working weekends.
I’m not axe grinding. I’m trying to look at the big picture. Realistically.
And I’d bite your hand off for a 13% pay rise.
ganglesprocket says
You wouldn’t if that 13% rise was at the expense of benefits which was actually worth more than the rise. Which was my point.
And that nonsense about clinical effectiveness over the weekend being somehow less than during the week has been comprehensively debunked as bullshit statistic manipulation.
Even the BBC has reported this. And they are usually too shit scared to call a minister an actual liar.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34598335
And my point is that your daughters conditions will worsen if the Junior Doctors fail. Sorry it will. Here is a piece by a former employee of Jeremy Hunt. The man is not fit to run an actual service
http://thequietus.com/articles/08944-jeremy-hunt-levenson-enquiry-hotcourses
pencilsqueezer says
I was going to avoid this but…
Been anywhere near a hospital in a life or death situation lately Dave? Thought not.
What exactly are you objecting to? That 98% of junior doctors object to a contract offer that in their opinion will endanger patients safety?
That when withdrawing their labour they didn’t all wear donkey jackets and stare glumly into the middle distance on the picket line.
Btw. We do already have a 24/ 7 NHS. My late wife was admitted into hospital late on a Sunday night. The junior doctors and nursing staff who were on duty that night were magnificent. As a society we are lucky to have such dedicated people caring for us when life becomes so unbearably and horribly REAL.
Dave Ross says
I was at Ashford Hospital with my 86 year old Mum yesterday and she was treated with the usual incredible levels of professionalism and care I have come to expect from the NHS and it’s staff from my many visits there.
I am objecting to the scaremongering, the news friendly protests, the smug sign waving looks to camera, that goes against all that you and I and millions of others recognise as the behaviour and demeanour of our Doctors.
Junior Doctors are on a path to a career where they will be well paid and successful but the world is changing for many of us, I am currentky going through a reduncy selection process but am mature enough to realise why it is necessary. They should just get back to work and stop viewing their vocation as a means to squeeze the remaining pips out of the cause they feel strongly about.
pencilsqueezer says
Sorry to hear about your mum Dave.
I don’t believe that junior doctors would withdraw their labour without good reason. This is after all the first time the BMA have called strike action in forty years. Not exactly a gang of extremists.
It all boils down to my being grateful that some well educated and highly dedicated people are there for all of us when we need them the most. I don’t care what they are paid as long as it is enough for them to feel valued. I do want to feel confident that when all of us are in extreme medical need the people that care for us are well rested and as stress free as possible.
bungliemutt says
Up arrow.
Dave Ross says
@pencilsqueezer I think we want the same things just from different angles. Hope all is ok with you.
mikethep says
With the greatest respect Dave, I don’t think your own situation has anything to do with this. Just because you have to suck it up (and I sympathise, I’ve been there) doesn’t mean the junior docs have to. There is massive unease, and not just among the medical profession, about the way the NHS is under doctrinaire, market-driven attack (and social services generally, viz IDS’s antics), and this strike is just one aspect of that.
The welfare state we all grew up with is disappearing, we have to recognise that, but expecting medical grunts to do more grunt work for less money without increasing their numbers is surely not the way to go.
As for the demeanour we expect from our doctors, I don’t think waving signs saying Down with this sort of thing and avoiding the cameras is going to impress anybody.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
Dearie me, Dave. Lazy thinking, lazy logic. You believe that wanker Hunt over 98% of Junior Doctors? It doesn’t take too much investigatory work to discover that the supposed +13% is in fact a pay cut. A full seven day service is indeed what the NHS needs but in order to do that you need more doctors and nurses instead of fucking around with already over-worked but still dedicated people eg
https://youtu.be/VbrHp5Jjlzo
Vulpes Vulpes says
Good God, I thought this was a forum for intelligent informed opinion, at least some of the time. Before anyone else comes in here spouting bollocks, based upon nothing better than a skim read through a few tabloids and the Daily Mail website, stroll in to your nearest A&E next Sunday at seven in the evening and tell me you’d be happy to spend twelve hours there in a position of responsibility.
mikethep says
I believe the phrase is, you couldn’t make it up.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-launches-urgent-inquiry-into-junior-doctors-morale-a6867801.html
Mike_H says
So the new contract is now going to be imposed. There’s already a shortage of junior doctors. Do they think this will help plug that particular gap?
A new contract for Consultants is in the pipeline too. There’ll be interesting times ahead in the NHS if they try and shaft them as well.
pencilsqueezer says
Junior doctors are welcome to move to Wales. We’d be very happy to have them.
mikethep says
They’re certainly moving to Oz. I’ve encountered a couple already.
pencilsqueezer says
I don’t blame them Mike. I hope some of these wonderful people choose Cymru as an option as well.
DrJ says
It’s late and I’m tired, so I’ll keep it brief.
– I worked in the NHS from 2004 (Labour largesse, and as stated, the greatest patient satisfaction the NHS has ever known) until 2011 (first year of Tory government, you could feel the cold wind blowing down the corridors). For most of that I worked every second or third weekend and 70% of my shifts were anti-social (i.e. Full Night shift or finishing at 10/midnight). I worked in a 24/7 service. I was unmarried and childless at the start, so I could handle that. By 2011 that was not the case, and I looked at moving on. It was unsustainable. More and more people will come to this conclusion.
– You have a 24/7 service, and instead of celebrating it, you elected the people sent to destroy it. Just look at the #imatworkjeremy hashtag to see all the doctors working at all hours. “Guess what. People get sick at the weekends.” Yes, that’s why hospitals are on the go 24/7 already. You have noticed that right?
– it’s actually double time for a weekend work.
– The weekend mortality figures are bullshit science, aka, Hunt is lying.
– The 13% pay rise will actually mean doctors get less in real terms when more antisocial work for less pay takes over the pay packet.
– As for the decorum of doctors, let them have it. They’re angry. “Daddy’s not going to get you out of this one.” Really? You’re going to be like that? Come on. Don’t let them divide and conquer. You’re better than that, Dave. You think it goes against the demeanour of doctors? How should doctors behave? How should they respond to the erosion of their profession in a way that would please you? A letter to the Times? A withering look? Perhaps a slow, sad chew on a favourite pipe. Come on. “Then they came for the junior doctors, and I said nothing, for I am not a junior doctor.”
Let me ask you: the person who’s going to cut the cancer from your body, or reverse the potentially debilitating stroke, how badly do you want that person to be treated by their employer? What’s the least they can be paid and still be any good at their job? Consultants know that they’re next. This whole thing will definitely drive doctors from the system, and lower standards. There’ll be some slight immediate effects, but in a generation we’ll all look back and see where the rot came from.
In other news today, Hunt has launched an investigation into doctor morale. You. Can’t. Make. This. Stuff. Up.
Gatz says
??????????????????????
retropath2 says
(Doctor in joke alert) Double time, Dr J? Loooxery! It were 1/3 time in my day. 1 in 2 rotas, with normal pay hours 0-40 and then 1/3 of that for hours 40 – 140.
But, true as it was, my on call was for my own ward of patients and emergency admissions. I often slept for an hour or 2 overnight in my hospital room, so working from friday 8 am to monday 6pm was, just about, manageable. Now no gratis rooms provided for overnight staff as you don’t/can’t/won’t get your head down, it is solid graft. And these juniors need and deserve downtime, a day off after a 24 hour shift, way more than I did, a shame that it took the EEC to be the folk who insisted on it, not our own country. The same directive that the UK wants to overturn. Pay the fuckers a decent wage. Yes, the nurses, and others, ought to be paid better for unsocial hours, but don’t blame my union for fighting for Drs rights, as the 37 1/2 hour week enshrined within such allied professions is a dream way beyond any Drs grasp, junior or senior.
DrJ says
You were lucky. When I started in Ireland as a doctor, I was working 100+ hour weeks, base pay for 40hours, half pay for the next 30, then you’d be working free for every hour after that. And then our dads would dance in our head singing alleluia.
The double time thing might have just been for Sundays, it might have been time & a half for Saturday’s. I can’t remember the specifics now of my old NHS pay.
I do loathe the term “junior doctors” because it infers that these people are not doctors. In Ireland the nomenclature is NCHD – non-consultant hospital doctor. A bit more prosaic, and doesn’t really cover doctors who are not hospital-based.
There is also a huge expense involved in being a doctor, I’m not sure how prevalent it is in other professions, perhaps people could enlighten me. But you can spend thousands per year on registrations, medical protection and mandatory courses for continuous preoressional development, often done on free time.
mikethep says
This is probably a low blow, but what the hell. You have a choice: do you trust doctors to tell the truth, or do you trust a Tory boy with a mullet?
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g401/mikethep/mullet_zpskrotnak6.jpg
Moose the Mooche says
No wonder he’s so keen to go into hospitals…. he just wants another excuse to roll his sleeves up.
H.P. Saucecraft says
Jeremy Richard Streynsham Hunt
Party in the back, business in front
Money in the bank, champers in the punt
For Jeremy Richard Streynsham Hunt
mikethep says
Up! That’s Streynsham, spelt S-T-R-E-Y-N-S-H-A-M.
bungliemutt says
Jeremy Richard Streynsham Hunt
That bloke on the radio once called him a cunt
It was of course an error, not a deliberate affront
To Jeremy Richard Streynsham Hunt
(With apologies to HP Thribb, aged 58 1/2)
H.P. Saucecraft says
Jeremy Richard Streynsham Hunt
We need a rhyme for that
To avoid being blunt
Let’s settle for twat
mikethep says
I rode with the Streynsham Hunt, you know. Tremendous sport.
David Kendal says
It seems to be a fake – Jeremy Hunt’s face Photoshopped onto a picture of a TV presenter called Pat Sharp.
Even if it was real, well, an 18 year old having a silly haircut is hardly news.
From the point of view of an outsider to the medical profession, it does look like Hunt relies on figures in his arguments, and the BMA rely more on emotional appeals. Which doesn’t make either of them necessarily right or wrong. I suppose the real test will be when doctors get their first pay slips under this new contract, and we see how many do leave the country.
JustB says
But you do know, right, that Hunt’s main “statistical” justification for the reform (that more people die at the weekend in the NHS) is thoroughly debunked? It’s a lie. It’s a thoroughgoing lie. A cursory Google will confirm.
David Kendal says
A cursory google turned up this. A list of papers about weekend mortality rates.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/research-into-the-weekend-effect-on-hospital-mortality/research-into-the-weekend-effect-on-patient-outcomes-and-mortality
It’s from the Department of Health. The first paper is the one that Hunt initially referred to. In the last interview I saw on TV, he also referred to these other papers, without the detail. I don’t have the professional knowledge to understand how much support they give to his case. But in this sort of dispute the BMA are as much politicians as Hunt is- have they debunked all of these papers? They have to.
But originally, I was really only talking about pay, and who will benefit or lose out. This could be established by an afternoon with Excel. Again, have the BMA done this – maybe, but they’re not publicising it very well.
I’m not a supporter of this government at all, and was a member of the Labour Party until Forrest Gump took over. Now that we are stuck with a Conservative government for another 9 years, any opponents to them on any policy, like the BMA, have to sharpen up their act.
JustB says
I don’t disagree that the opposition need to sharpen their act up, but the papers quoted above entirely fail to demonstrate causation for the figure the DoH keep using. That’s the point: you can’t just rewrite 53000 people’s contracts on the basis of an entirely unproven correlation – there could be a million different causes at play, but Hunt has sought to claim a bunch of bullshit conclusions on the back of no evidence. Dr J and others have dealt with the bullshittiness of it all far better than I could elsewhere in the thread.
JustB says
Here’s a good explanation of why the 16% figure the gov’t is using is in itself misleading, even ignoring the conflation of correlation and causation:
“The study, a retrospective observational study of admissions in England during 2009-10, followed up patients for 30 days after admission and included adjustment for diagnosis and comorbidities. Full data were available for 14 217 640 admissions and 187 337 deaths. That’s a 1.32% absolute risk of death in the 30 days after admission; a 16% difference in this absolute risk is tiny. How certain can we be that the adjustments for morbidities, for example, were accurate? Not very.”
http://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h3575
fortuneight says
You might find this worth a read
http://fullfact.org/health/nobody-knows-how-many-lives-could-be-saved-seven-day-nhs/
They also have an analysis of the impact of the pay changes
http://fullfact.org/health/are-junior-doctors-getting-pay-cut/
Watching Hunt, (and the DoH as his agent) and the BMA exchange barbs is tiresome and unrewarding. It’s becoming a bit like choosing your favourite Nazi. They could benefit from listening to Dr Sarah Wollaston – a Tory MP who is actually well informed about the issue. Needless to say she’s not being asked to take a front line role in this dispute
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11895369/A-fight-over-doctors-hours-will-help-no-one.html
The BMA task isn’t easy – the right wing media won’t be of any help, and the gov’t seem to have got the BBC pretty well reigned in.
Vulpes Vulpes says
Have to say, that sounds like a pretty dismissive last sentence, callous even. Not unlike some of the remarks that have been made by a certain tax-avoiding Surrey MP over the years.
retropath2 says
Yup, it’s a funny old world where the reality for many junior Docs is to read the papers about their huge pay rise, yet have to explain to families and friends, let alone their bank managers, that they are earning less overall. And, yes, it is true, many of them may seem clueless, as their night and weekends see them cross-covering areas they are less familiar with than their daytime hours, now so thin are they spread on the ground. Thank goodness for the reliability of the permanent nursing staff, where they still exist, to guide and manage some of the uncertainties and practicalities.
Hunt, that epitome of rhyming slang, is taking the NHS to a precipice. If this new blood is alienated away to Canada and Oz, to banking and business, we have no health service. Furthermore, just as young Drs are exiting even before they begin, older Drs are leaving ever earlier, disillusioned and destroyed by a service that demands more and more of fewer and fewer, with less resource, less support and, yes, less reward, much less, all courtesy an arrogant and cynical government that seems content to let this happen, sound biting lies to silence any semblance of the truth.
And, yes, I am a member of the BMA.
Ever wondered why you are waiting longer to see your GP, to get seen in A/E or in outpatients, why everything seems a little less rosy? Honestly, it really isn’t the greedy Drs………
H.P. Saucecraft says
Is this the same Dave Amitri who posted about cruising around Eton, admiring the handsome youg lads in their toppers?
And now it’s “Daddy is not going to get you out of this one”.
Moose the Mooche says
I think “cruising” may be libellous.
H.P. Saucecraft says
Sorry. “Driving slowly, with elbow out of open window.”
Moose the Mooche says
Oh that’s much better.
Dave Ross says
Sorry Burt but while most of the debate on here has been interesting, educational and full blooded I have to say that the Eton thread was about the beauty of the building, the absolute certainty the boys have in their place in the world and the fact that despite all that it’s not their choice and that some don’t look best pleased to be there. There is no doubt that Etons Daddy’s will get them out of any and every one… Not one thing said here though has changed my view that treating this situation like a giant flash mob photo opportunity or a placard making comp to discuss over skinny lattes and granola biscuits is not aiding the cause of the Juniors.
Black Celebration says
Not really related to the OP and I’m sorry if I am Michael McIntyring things, but have you noticed how busy everyone at work is these days?
“It’s out of control”
“there’s no let up”
“crazy busy”
“ridiculously busy”
“it just never stops…”
People say this sort of thing all the time now. This could be a reason why Junior Doctors don’t get as much attention as they used to. We used to have a better work/life balance. We didn’t use to aspire to be “crazy busy” and work all hours.
JustB says
Dave. It’s not about a popular or unpopular post but about being even halfway acquainted with the facts.
H.P. Saucecraft says
Fair do’s though but Bob. In this epochal post Dave has bequeathed us a phrase that will live for ever in the blog:
Daddy is not going to get you out of this one.
Afterword Headstone
Dodger Lane says
The government are behaving very badly over this and they have picked the wrong fight. To impose a settlement smacks of bullying, settlements have to be negotiated, there will be compromises on both sides and that’s how it has worked for years. Nobody gets everything they want. As the son of a doctor I may be a little biased in this, but my views are more a reflection of common sense and my experience of hospital doctors (juniors and consultants) who have looked after me during serious illness and one who put his arm around my mother’s shoulder to consoie her at the moment of my dad’s death. I recall a junior almost falling asleep as he was trying to insert a drip into my arm late on a Sunday night. This was 30+ years ago, heaven only knows what it’s like now. Yes, doctors do have the potential to earn well and today’s consultants had to put up with a lot in the past to get where they are now. But life should be about improving working conditions, not worsening them. I believe in the commitment of doctors to their profession, and just because they are doctors with a commitment to care does not mean employers (who according to newspaper reports this morning are uneasy about this imposition of contract) should be in a position to take advantage.
retropath2 says
Wealthier backgrounds was the case a couple of generations ago, until student grants came in, allowing at a stroke the clever kids from poorer backgrounds to swell the ranks and better the balance and diversity. My years at a reputation ally “posh” medical school was about mixing and mingling with the people who remain my professional friends, rather than the people at my (private) school. medicine was and is better for that range of earlier experience. But, cos there always is, that is now reversing, as grants have become loans. Sure they will be paid back when the bucks start rolling in? But they don’t, and a £75 – 100k debt is a big liability to take into your adult life, as children and the hope of home-ownership compete for your cash. (And because the clinical years of training, years 3,4 and 5, are 48 week out of 52, it isn’t as if you can get a holiday job.) So it is becoming the domain, again, of the bank of mum’n’dad. And that’s a shame, as eton and oxbridge don’t necessarily prepare you best for inner city deprivation amongst your clientele. But hey, one day, maybe 10 years for a hospital consultant, perhaps 5 to be a GP, you’ll be able to stand on your own feet. I can’t speak for hospital, but as a fat cat (copyright D.Mail) GP, my income has gone down by 37% since the supposed golden gift contract of 13 years ago, Hunt freely admitting that is as penance for a then better deal, from which I, and many, broke even with, rather than gilded my porsche with. (I don’t have a porsche, I have a10 year old entry level BMW). Not moaning. I’m lucky. When I am able to do my job properly I love it. These days, that ain’t often, 12 hours flat being the daily norm, paperwork in my spare time. Had I not dropped a day after my personal burn out in 2012 I couldn’t function at all, and as I near 60, my younger colleagues are beginning to take their pensions and run.
I support the juniors 100% and hope most of you still will and do. And, when it comes, as it will, when the seniors begin to fight for their right to work (for you) without denigration and denials to the realities of work in a failing and neglected 3rd world service, that you will support us too.
mutikonka says
Having done exhausting shifts in emergency departments, I’d say junior doctors have seen a lot more of the real world than most other graduates. And with this new contract being imposed from above, I think the English (not the Scots or Welsh, who have a separate NHS contract) can say goodbye to their most dedicated and skilled junior doctors. Working conditions for doctors in Australia are WAY better than in the UK. Hunt will no doubt then step down and take a position with an outfit like Virgin Health, which will recruit cheap doctors from Eastern Europe for its NHS franchises.
chiz says
I suspect there’s some truth in the idea that junior doctors often come from wealthier backgrounds and may well have the full support of their parents during their training. But that’s great, isn’t it, that they’re choosing to commit to working flat out saving lives and preserving health, and they’re passionate enough to fight for the NHS, rather than walking away into comfy jobs as they easily could?
Bingo Little says
I have to admit that I’m not really familiar with the ins and outs of this story, beyond a cursory scan of the papers and what’s been written above.
What I will say is that I know quite a few junior doctors – several years ago I fell in within a gang of about 40 of them while hosteling in New York, and have stayed in contact with most – and they’re among the best people I’ve met. Purely anecdotal, of course, but they seem to work insane hours under crazy pressure for a relatively mediocre salary, because they want to help people.
They may all get filthy rich later on, I have no idea how their career path works, but if cash is all they were after there were simpler and less gruesome ways of achieving it, with a far lower cost of education.
There are generally good arguments on either side of most debates, but, purely on the basis of my own experience to date, I’m disinclined to take seriously anyone who attacks the character of junior doctors; they seem about as far from being feckless and grasping as any group I can think of.
OOAA
Twang says
I share everyone’s love of junior doctors. But I think the BMA are quite different, and since the dawn of the NHS have only responded to one thing – having their mouths stuffed with gold (Bevan). I also clearly remember Gordon Brown, characteristically throwing money at doctors without bothering to secure anything for it in terms of additional flexibility or services, getting nowhere with post-agreement discussions with the BMA.
I am not sure I trust the BMA’s version of the facts any more that Jeremy Hunt’s TBH.
retropath2 says
The dawn of time? That Bevan quote of mouths stuffed with gold has been such a great phrase and soundbite it has grown legs and wings of its own, and it gets trotted out whenever Drs get anything different agreed contractually. Gordon Brown, and Blair before him, did throw a shed of cash at the NHS and, for a while, things were better, especially in cancer care. I recall a senior figure perpetually starting every discussion with thanks to the then government, and he wasn’t talking about his pay or conditions. But so strong is this phrase that it is believed to be the norm, and, as stated above, Hunt has taken a deliberate stance in cutting the average remuneration of GPs year on year from the early 90s contract that so stuffed my mouth with gold that I then took home the same pay for working twice as hard. Now it is, and these are independent audited figures, on average, 37% less since then. Mind you, my workload survey shows I am now working twice as hard again.
Yup, BMA are a trades union. What do you want them to do? Argue for lower pay and worse terms? I guess at least it would result in that outcome quicker.
As an addendum, I see the Daily Hell today is making the helpful remark that any Docs leaving the UK should pay back the cost of their training. However logical that may sound, given that applications for medical school are now beginning to drop, that is not going to help the diminishing workforce one iota now, is it? Improve conditions and people may then prefer to stay and work in the land they were brought up in, close to family and friends. People may prefer to work to retirement age. And what happens to graduates in other vocational courses? Blimey, if people had to stay within vocation, maybe parliament would be less chock full of eejits. (Or, looking at the increasing number of career politicians with a 2.2 in politics, maybe not……..)
jockblue says
I remain slightly confused as to what junior doctors want as a settlement. If it’s money, then say so (as many do) and the whole package of hours worked for a total wage before vs after should be explainable to folk to show why this 13% rise figure isn’t what it seems.
If it’s patient safety, then again say so. The emphasis on recruiting the extra doctors and nurses and support staff to work in a 24/7 NHS is what they should be arguing for – any talk of money dilutes this argument.
I think the NHS does a fantastic job when it’s allowed to – the emergency part of it has literally been a life saver to members of my family. Where it falls down miserably is the absence of joined up process – people do their own jobs, and then pass the patient to the next in the process who starts again. Try booking more than one appointment or trying to arrange two or three separate NHS departments or other government agencies like social services to co-ordinate and you’re goosed. Bed-blocking’s a great example of this – millions wasted due to lack of joined up thinking….. That’s where the solutions to this sit, not with messing around with stats or contracts or salaries. A 24/7 NHS is a great thing to have – we should make it happen properly.
Ahh_Bisto says
For what it’s worth I think that this issue is simply one of the harder and higher hurdles the Tories have to jump to clear the way for expanding the privatisation of the NHS. As is always the case when 2 sides come to blows who is waiting in the wings to benefit? It’s the private sector who can’t wait to feed off the public fear of over-tired doctors, poorly staffed hospitals and demoralised health professionals.
Unfortunately, all players in this particular game – including the wider public – are incapable of having the grown-up conversation about how and why the NHS needs to change in order to cope with a population, that generation on generation, is both living longer but also living less healthily and less self-sufficiently.
jockblue says
I agree with nearly everything you say Ahh Bisto, apart from the last line…
The population is living considerably longer (if you reach the age of 65, you are now on average expected to live until you are 87 for men, 89 for women), and certainly less self-sufficiently due to a combination of lack of education and increased fecklessness.
However, I don’t think we are living less healthily – what has changed is that advances in medical science mean that many illnesses and conditions that previously would not have been treated are now treated as a daily routine, and in many cases, at great expense.
Totally agree about the adult conversations, starting with the cost of the NHS to the economy as a whole, and how the amounts involved are so big that even what appears to be fairly draconian changes being proposed are only scratching the surface.
Ahh_Bisto says
Against the backdrop of an ageing demographic people are indeed surviving illnesses and injuries that in the past would have been fatal. However, keeping people alive comes at a cost. People who can now today live with their illnesses/injuries also means that the NHS has to fund and manage extensive periods of care, over years even decades to keep these people alive. So, yes, many illnesses are treatable but many types of treatments means long-term and expensive health care that has to be funded from a finite public purse.
I also don’t think people do live more healthily these days. We have problems with obesity, poor diet, insufficient regular exercise and the illnesses and ailments associated with those unhealthy lifestyle choices. We also have a serious mental health problem in this country which is often neglected when people talk about health problems.
The problem isn’t that so many illnesses are now curable/treatable. These advances are wonderful but they don’t tell the whole story. The problem is with those illnesses that are identifiable, containable or can be pegged back but aren’t completely curable. In short we can help people to live longer with their illness. It is an increasingly complex world of patient care with an ageing population and the NHS is increasingly being called upon to provide a particular type of long-term health care in a multitude of scenarios it is neither sufficiently resourced or structured to provide.
niscum says
Country’s gone to the fuckin dogs. End of yeah.
DougieJ says
Late to this thread but just wanted to echo Dave’s OP. My ‘social circle’ is pretty run of the mill I’d say, but on Facebook I’ve noticed a worrying tendency for people to simply assume the junior doctors dispute is worthy and, of course, Jeremy is a CNUT. Quite depressing really.
Bit like those FB posts asking us to ‘share if you think nurses are great’. News just in – some are wonderful, some are competent, some are sub-standard, some are negligent. Who knew?
Apple / Google health and the like can’t come soon enough as far as I’m concerned.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
Quite the most depressing post I have read on here. The +13% is an outright lie, just look at the facts instead of spouting bollocks.
After ten years of living in France which on almost every measurable level has the best health care in the world I am no longer convinced that the British NHS model is the sacred cow I once held so dear. (not sure I should be cuddling a cow however sacred).
However, your “bring on privatisation” call as a response to strike action so just and honourable is crass beyond belief.
jockblue says
You say the 13% is an outright lie – can you explain it to me please? Where does the number come from and why is it wrong? If I’m going to guess, I would say that the basic rate is going up by 13% but a lot of time that was previously premium will now be at the new basic rate? If so, how does that impact the average junior doctor – lets have some facts
I’m sure that most people are more intelligent than the black-white postings to be found in the Daily Mail or Facebook….
mikethep says
Although the article itself comes to no firm conclusion, reading the comments underneath is instructive (bar the splendid contribution from ‘John’ who thinks doctors are lefty terrorists).
Warning: you might need to wrap a wet towel round your head first, some of it’s pretty hard to follow. But there’s a definite (non-fanatical) consensus.
mikethep says
I forgot to add the link!
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-junior-doctors-pay-cut/21890
Lodestone of Wrongness says
The maths are always complicated in such matters but basically the Govrnement is offering Junior Doctors a pay rise whilst asking them to work more unsocial hours which will not attract the previous premium.Based on the existing salary and my current rota per year I work:
8 Saturday days(0800-2030), 8 Saturday nights (2000-0830), 8 Sunday days, 8 Sunday nights and 32 weekday nights along with other lates and standard (8-1730) days averaging 46 hours per week across the year, a fairly intense on call rota.
This qualifies me for 1A rota and my current salary at CT2 is £31 838 basic with a 50% supplement taking this to £47757 per year.
In three years time a CT2 on the same rota (who will have moved outside their pay protection baseline assuming they are an FY1 currently) will earn (based on the information given in the contract offer) £37400 basic but only £3947 extra for the antisocial hours involved giving £41347 gross, a pay cut (not to me personally but to the role which will be identical) of 13.4%.
This will not apply to doctors doing specialty training in specialties that attract the ‘flexible pay premia’ which is essentially taking money from the roles as above and giving it to trainees in specialties where training is currently unattractive (the main reason for this not usually being pay, but working environment) to help keep the overall budget cost neutral.
Under current terms an FY1 this year who has regular working hours of 1230-2200 Tues-Fri and 0800-1730 on Saturday would earn £33954. Next year (as a new starter not eligible for the pay protection premia)they would earn £25500, a cut of 25%.
This is further exacerbated by the fact that our additional banding is unpensionable currently but by increasing basic pay as a proportion of our salaries it will increase our pension contributions by a similar proportion, further impacting on net take-home pay.
But let a real doctor speak – and please note the outrageous salaries these greedy bastards get
“Based on the existing salary and my current rota per year I work:
8 Saturday days(0800-2030), 8 Saturday nights (2000-0830), 8 Sunday days, 8 Sunday nights and 32 weekday nights along with other lates and standard (8-1730) days averaging 46 hours per week across the year, a fairly intense on call rota.
This qualifies me for 1A rota and my current salary at CT2 is £31 838 basic with a 50% supplement taking this to £47757 per year.
In three years time a CT2 on the same rota (who will have moved outside their pay protection baseline assuming they are an FY1 currently) will earn (based on the information given in the contract offer) £37400 basic but only £3947 extra for the antisocial hours involved giving £41347 gross, a pay cut (not to me personally but to the role which will be identical) of 13.4%.
This will not apply to doctors doing speciality training in specialities that attract the ‘flexible pay premia’ which is essentially taking money from the roles as above and giving it to trainees in specialities where training is currently unattractive (the main reason for this not usually being pay, but working environment) to help keep the overall budget cost neutral.
Under current terms an FY1 this year who has regular working hours of 1230-2200 Tues-Fri and 0800-1730 on Saturday would earn £33954. Next year (as a new starter not eligible for the pay protection premia)they would earn £25500, a cut of 25%.
This is further exacerbated by the fact that our additional banding is unpensionable currently but by increasing basic pay as a proportion of our salaries it will increase our pension contributions by a similar proportion, further impacting on net take-home pay”.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
Apologies for the double and confusing cut & paste… doctor, hand me that edit button!!
jockblue says
Thanks Henpetsgi, particularly for your candour about your salary. It’s that kind of factual information that helps the layman understand the competing stats that get thrown around in these matters.
fortuneight says
“Apple / Google health and the like can’t come soon enough as far as I’m concerned.”
You mean like they have in the USA? Vastly expensive and delivering the lowest health outcomes. To those that can afford it. Really?
DougieJ says
er, no. That would be the US health model you’re referring to, which pretty much no-one is advocating for the UK. My point is that the idea that the rest of the developed world looks upon the NHS with envy is deluded.
Doctors were bought off at the very inception of the NHS and have had a vastly inflated sense of their own importance ever since. The medical and legal professions make the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers seem like shrinking violets.
My hope is that the move by Apple and Google (technology, more widely) into the health sector will result in this over-protected group (medical professionals) being taken down a peg or two.
On a personal note, my experience of the NHS has been a mixture of basic competence and borderline negligence, hence my reluctance to go along with this love-in.
retropath2 says
“Drs were bought off at the very inception”, yawn yawn yawn, it’s the cliche that knows no end again. Even were it true, and it may well have been, bear in mind it was 1948 and it was a question of persuading then established professionals to forego the system they had worked in their whole professional lives and take on a new, then unproven one. I think there would have been a lot of nervousness, akin perhaps to if todays medical workforce being told tomorrow it is all private and the “comfort zone” of the NHS were to end. Bevan had to convince a sceptical workforce and got a damn good soundbite out of justifying it to himself, the public and parliament.
And if your terms and conditions were to be inflated by your paymasters, can you really say that you would say, no thanks, can I have a little less?
I was minus 9 in 1948. There isn’t a Dr alive, still working in the NHS, with any recall of the pre-NHS. Certainly in my field the commitment to the NHS is near absolute, even if despair and disillusionment with how it is function equals that commitment.
I’m sorry your experiences were bad or less than you expected. But is isn’t always the piano player you should shoot.
Bingo Little says
Indeed. Shooting the piano player for poor medical service seems downright harsh.
Vulpes Vulpes says
I had no idea that Lancelot Spratt was a real person, and still practising!
Moose the Mooche says
This weekend he’s been working all the bleeding time
Black Celebration says
I’m with you re the legal profession. In 30+ years of dealing with every kind of profession, I now actively avoid any legal firms if I can help it. Why? Because they make things complicated and they can’t be trusted to pay their bills.
DougieJ says
yep.
Rules of Bureaucracy:
Rule #1: Maintain the problem at all costs! The problem is the basis of power, perks, privileges, and security.
(https://mises.org/library/seven-rules-bureaucracy)
Vulpes Vulpes says
There’s a strong whiff of libertarian climate-change-denier in the air this fine morning.
DougieJ says
Sorry.
Support our wonderful nurses!
Make Google pay more tax!
Better?
ianess says
‘Our angels’, shirley?
It’s heartwarming to see the horny-handed masses of the AW standing shoulder to shoulder with the gilded, science geek elite whose practice of their ‘vocation’ will earn them millions over the course of their career, at little risk of losing their jobs even when grossly incompetent or negligent, even affording consultants the opportunity of working in both the public and private sector, then allow them to retire early with a lovely little pension pot, all courtesy of the taxpayer.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
Ah thanks Ian, that’s we needed here: clear, unbiased insight. As I stated up above I am no longer wholly convinced that the NHS is the best way to run a UK healthcare system.
But just imagine what happens when the Private Guys helicopter themselves in: hard-working, selfless, dedicated to a man and woman I am sure. No paying themselves huge salaries, even hugerer bonuses, tax-free shares and then retiring when they have got to their well-deserved retirement – which at a wild guess would be age 50 maximum? Why should they be any different from our best friends, the Noble Captains of Industry, Bankers and the rest of them wonderful, wonderful people who steer us through such wonderful times.
ianess says
Thanks for confirming my point. You’re knee-jerkingly apoplectic at the salaries private sector workers supposedly earn, but turn a blind eye to the enormous salaries NHS bureaucrats and consultants are creaming from the public purse.
Junior doctors, like most young professionals, believe they have to work long hours for insufficient reward. This is more than outweighed by the rewards over the course of their careers – a career where it is nigh on impossible to be fired from, unlike other professions in the private sector. (Unless of course you happen to blow the whistle on the shortcomings of the NHS)
This is just another big standard, self-interested grab for more money.
Also, where have I suggested that the system be wholly privatised? The NHS is not the envy of the world and it needs wholesale reform – it is completely unsustainable in its present form.
fortuneight says
As ever, opinions and dogma knee-jerkingly presented as fact.
ianess says
Do enlighten us with your thoughts, o Master.
fortuneight says
Master? Interesting choice of phrase. I have many weaknesses, but a superiority complex seems not to be one of them.
My thoughts? Read the rest of the thread.
ianess says
Duly checked. Your wife is a nurse.
Not entirely sure FullFact is quite as impartial as you appear to imagine.
fortuneight says
If you doubt FullFact’s analysis please feel free to share an alternative analysis or a source that supports your “grab for money” / “it’s all about the money” comments. And please don’t feel restricted to just my posts. Feel free to spell out to the actual doctors – sorry, “well paid elite” who have contributed to this thread what they should earn.
mikethep says
Whence this rage against the medical profession, this ‘gilded, science geek elite’…’creaming’ enormous salaries from the public purse? Most people, I would have thought, don’t have a problem with doctors being well paid, and better paid as they rise through the profession, as long as they do the job they are paid to do. They can even be overpaid according to whatever mysterious formula you’re using, I don’t care. (Publishers and Thai restaurateurs, now, that’s a different matter.) Most people would probably want nurses’ salaries to be doubled while we’re at it. And despite what you say quite a few doctors get fired too, either for incompetence or for transgressing in some other way (cf Gideon’s brother).
Bureaucrats are a different matter, and it’s disingenuous of you to link them so firmly. It may well be that there’s an oversupply of bureaucrats relative to doctors, and it may be that they are overpaid, I wouldn’t know. If this is indeed the case, it’s very likely to be down to successive governments (of both stripes) meddling with the NHS and getting the balance wrong, I suspect. From what I read, quite a lot of doctors in general practice are bureaucrats too these days.
As for your notion that Junior Doctors should just suck it up now because one day they’ll be creaming it, you aren’t paying (or won’t pay) attention. Time and again they’ve said it’s not about money per se; it’s about tinkering with their contracts so that their working conditions and take-home pay deteriorate, and the government dishonestly presenting this as ‘Junior Doctors reject 13% pay rise’. Or lying, if you prefer.
I’m one of those deluded souls who instinctively trusts doctors while instinctively mistrusting politicians. I accept that this knee-jerk dogma may disqualify me from joining in the sort of sensible, grown-up discussion you wish to have. Soit.
ianess says
It’s all about the money. They’ve always been a well-paid elite, ever since the tribalism bigot stuffed their mouths with gold.
Lawson had it right when he said the NHS is the closest the British have to a national religion. Angels and heroes indeed.
mikethep says
Yes, but so what? The world is full of well-paid elites, why do the doctors annoy you so much?
ianess says
What could it possibly be about doctors that would annoy? Let’s see – their self-adoration, their arrogance, their sense of entitlement, their incompetence which leads to their killing a fair number of their patients every year.
Like all professions, they’re a mix of the excellent, the average and the incompetent. They’re not mini-Gods.
As for pay, what would you suggest? All very well to trot out some trite (let’s not mention virtue-signalling) piety about paying doctors and nurses much more, but how is this to be paid for? The NHS already takes a massive and ever-growing slice of the national budget, though never quite enough for a segment of the population.
mikethep says
No, let’s not mention virtue-signalling. It’s a grim old world when to express an opinion, and mean it, is to be contemptuously dismissed as virtue-signalling by a joyless Stalinist with a chip on his shoulder, a handy little grab-bag of put-downs and an imperfect sense of what phrases actually mean.
I, unfortunately, have clocked up considerable experience of the NHS over the last 10 years or so, both on my own behalf and that of others. Not once have I seen any evidence of self-adoration, arrogance, sense of entitlement or incompetence, although I have on occasion sensed a certain lack of organisational capability in waiting-rooms. You must have suffered terribly somewhere along the line.
As for paying for it all, it would help if Google, Apple, Amazon et al paid their full whack of tax, but that’s probably a little too bien-pensant for your refined tastes.
Now, I’m feeling an attack of ENS coming on (nurse!) so I’ll leave it at that.
mikethep says
I do, on the other hand, apologise for my imperfect html skills.
ianess says
As distinct from my expressing an honest opinion and, consequently, being repeatedly attacked by a bitter, superannuated Student Grant figure whose advanced years have, unfortunately, not brought wisdom and whose stand on any issue exactly mirrors the party line, as dictated by the Grauniad.
As for doctors being an ‘elite’ – I was being sarcastic. There are over 150,000 of them in England alone. Hardly an elite body.
Finally, I’d be delighted if governments worldwide could cooperate to ensure multinationals paid their share of taxes. It would also be helpful if the Grauniad, that whiny rag written by, and read by, whingeing depressives, could also pay their fair share of tax, rather than sheltering behind a tax-avoidance vehicle. Not hypocritical at all, of course.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
I’ll have you know I have read the Guardian every day since 1968 and I have never whined ….sorry, let me rethink this
mikethep says
I love the way you reach for the Guardian, as if it’s the worst insult you can come up with. You have it the wrong way round: I read the Guardian (among many other organs, some of the really rather right-wing) because it reflects my world view. Like most of the lefties you despise so much I am capable of independent thought. I don’t do second-hand whining, thank you.
By a remarkable coincidence, your frequently expressed views on the NHS, the BBC, Islam etc mirror almost exactly those to be found in the Telegraph or (gasp!) the Daily Mail, but I wouldn’t dream of accusing you of lifting them wholesale from those fine organs. Although I do sometimes suspect you of spending more time with Guido Fawkes than is good for you.
Anyhoo, two bald men fighting over a comb as usual.
niscum says
Talking of ‘gilded elites’ in my experience everyone who’s anyone at the Guardian newspaper is Oxbridge educated. I would go further and say that any journalist who isn’t going to hit a glass ceiling there in terms of promotions is also privately educated.
Oxbridge is necessary to get on but not sufficient.
Regarding the doctors and nurses – Ianess is spot on, some are good, some are great and some are completely incompetent. It’s patronising to assume that they are a special class of human that have a need to help others. They have made a career choice for various reasons, one of which may be a desire to help others, and are well remunerated.
The bad joke is that agency staff can get paid 300 quid to sit up all night reading a book with an elderly patient who doesn’t have family around to do that for them.
The agency system is at the root of the NHS’s problems.
The NHS
mikethep says
Whereas anybody who’s anybody at the Times, Telegraph, Financial Times is a comprehensive oik, eh? I get your point, you’re saying that anybody who works for a left-leaning paper should have been born with a piece of coal in their mouth, but with all due respect, that’s bollocks.
niscum says
@mikethep hey, no that’s not quite my point. It was more about ‘gilded elites’ than that. I don’t know about the other newspapers you mention and it may well be a very similar picture there too.
What I do know is that the type of ‘worker’ that the Guardian stands up for would be as out of place (if not more so) rubbing shoulders with the Oxbridge staff there as they would with those at Merrill Lynch or Goldberg’s.
Sure if you’re born with a piece of coal in your mouth, and then win a place at Oxbridge, then you have a fair chance of writing for the Guardian. Just don’t expect any job security there though.
davebigpicture says
Let’s just put the whole thing out to tender and let the cheapest organisation run everything. Capita specialise in this sort of thing, buying cheap wholesale goods and services for people who don’t care about the quality of anything as long as it’s cheap.
Martin Hairnet says
If only we entrused our medical needs to organised ignorance, we’d all be doing so much better.
Moose the Mooche says
Have you not heard of homeopathy on the NHS?
DougieJ says
@henpetsgi we don’t have to imagine an alternative. We have evidence from places such as Switzerland, Netherlands and that hotbed of unfettered freemarketism France that the NHS is by no means the gold standard. The US bogeyman is a red herring (?! – you know what I mean!). It’s not about asking for people’s credit cards in A&E. It’s perfectly possible to have a system free at the point of use but which does not entail medical professionals being employed by the government directly.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
Accept everything you say about the NHS not necessarily being the gold standard BUT the original debate was whether or not Junior Doctors are being “greedy”. I hope some of the stuff on here has convinced people Hunt is a lying piece of crap and that JD’s are indeed facing not a pay rise but a pay cut.
My testy reply to ianess was borne out of sheer annoyance that, as per his normal stance, everyone working in the public sector is a lazy free-boating shyster unlike those fine specimens fast asleep in the boardrooms across the UK.
mikethep says
@henpetsgi, a reaction to a sudden attack of E.N.S. is normal, and to be expected. It can be treated, but you’ll have to go private, I’m afraid.
chiz says
ENS is a much misunderstood disease which, although aggressive, is at worst benign and at best highly beneficial to the victim of the attack. A symptom of ENS is that sufferers tend to exaggerate the pain it causes, to make themselves feel better. In small doses, ENS has been proved to improve brain function in most patients, and prevent outbreaks of viral flatulence.
mikethep says
The published evidence would tend to contradict your blithe assertion. In severe cases ENS can lead to violent flouncing among those who have not built up a tolerance. Some patients don’t make it.
chiz says
It’s true that ENS can cause irritation among the hyper-sensitive. However, evidence suggests most patients return for another bout a couple of days later with no lasting damage.
H.P. Saucecraft says
ENS is dose-specific; small doses have small effects, large doses large effects. Symptoms of ENS can include mild euphoria, dizziness, irritation, constipation, diarrhea, clamminess, lycanthropy, light-headedness, hot flushes, gripes, anomie, erectile disfunction, death. If you think you have ENS, don’t operate heavy machinery, drive, or vote.
Sewer Robot says
The best treatment is homeopathic – it doesn’t matter what, if anything, is in the liquid. What counts is that it’s measured in Fl ounces..
Lodestone of Wrongness says
Up – very clever!
H.P. Saucecraft says
Sew gets to wear the Afterword Sash today.
Tiggerlion says
An organisation in Washington, The Commonwealth Fund, studies healthcare systems in the eleven rich countries across the world and ranks them according to several categories, including access, quality and outcome.
Here’s a report on its 2014 report:
http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/rich-countries/healthcare-in-11-rich-countries-from-best-to-worst/?view=all
Tiggerlion says
I think I know what the problem is. The country has a shortage of sensible grannies. Research has shown that 80% of a GP’s workload could be done by a sensible granny and easy access to a sensible granny would cut A/E attends by 75%.*
“It’s a virus! Here’s some paracetamol and a glass lucozade. Lie on the couch with me and watch some telly.”
“You’ve had too much to drink love. Have this water and go to bed. I’ll put a bucket by your side just in case. Oops! Don’t worry. I’ve got ya.”
“You don’t need an ambulance for chewing gum in your hair. Where’s me scissors?”
“Put it under the tap!”
“Hold still. This will sting a bit.”
“I think you’ll live. The worst thing that will happen is that it’ll drop off.”
“Here. Blow into this paper bag. No. Blow, don’t suck. That’s it. Yes, there, that’s it. Keep going. You’ll be fine in a minute. Keep going. That’s it. Good boy.”
Sadly, increased family breakdown and the need to travel to find work has led to grannies being distant or completely separate from their offspring and their children, their pearls of wisdom unavailable in a crisis. In addition, grannies are, these days, the product of the Sixties and Seventies. They continue to enjoy drugs, alcohol and Viagra. Gonorrhoea in the over sixty-five year olds is at an all-time high as are admissions for drunken falls.** Sensible grannies are in very short supply.
My solution is a 24 hour helpline, app and Skype service, Rent-A-Gran. A sensible gran is available at the swipe of a screen or a dial of a number round the clock. They don’t need much sleep anyway, have very little to do and are lonely and bored. Hell, they’d be queueing up to do it for free.
This must be a win/win. Gran gets a purpose in the winter of their lives and the NHS can sack some doctors and nurses.
*I could be imagining all this.
**Can’t be bothered looking this up but I’m pretty sure it’s true.
Sewer Robot says
The Sensible Granny hotline is a premium rate number. I opted for the much cheaper Dementedgrans. Typical advice: “don’t look so worried, this worked a treat on Napoleon’s AIDS”
Tiggerlion says
Napolean had assistants? I thought his triumphs were his and his alone, judging by the statues in Paris.
Moose the Mooche says
She’s been replaced by Granny Oogle. She pays fuck all taxes on her pension but, to be fair, she’s always got an answer.
pencilsqueezer says
‘Cough’
Moose the Mooche says
By gad sir, I haven’t seen the regimental goat for many a long while. He looks in fine military condition. And he’s grown!
pencilsqueezer says
He’s been ‘away’. The result of a slight misunderstanding with ‘the powers that be’.
Things got a bit heated when he became embroiled in an argument with another crew’s collective goat on the vexed subject of the Mahavishnu Orchestra’s time signatures. One thing led to another. The cops were called…
Moose the Mooche says
They called the cops on a goat?
This anti-terrorism legislation has gone too far I tell you.
pencilsqueezer says
They confiscated his mint copy of Birds Of Fire too. Bastards!
chiz says
That’s the nanny state for you
Moose the Mooche says
Those fascist bastards will nick anyone with a beard.
pencilsqueezer says
They are holding Heidi at Guantanamo. Without trial.
Free The Goat Herd one!
H.P. Saucecraft says
*SINGS*
“Goatanamera, guajira Goatanamera
Goatanamera, guajira Goatanamera
Yo soy un hombre sincero
De don de crece la palma
Yo soy un hombre sincero
De don de crece la palma
Antes des morirme quiero
Echar mis versos del alma
Goatanamera, guajira, Goatanamera
Goatanamera, guajira Goatanamera …”
retropath2 says
Is that those mal disant fascist bastards? Surely we can think better than that ? (Gilded science geek elite joke)
Tiggerlion says
I spend all day thinking up a witty, sarcastic post on the state of the nation’s health and a bloody goat gets all the attention. Cuh.
pencilsqueezer says
You are Jeremy *unt and I claim my £5.
Tiggerlion says
I’ll admit to being a *unt but never a Jeremy.
retropath2 says
Mind you, in Wales it is normal for goats to bulk up the cannon fodder, so perhaps a legitimate target.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35379296
Moose the Mooche says
A BLOODY goat. They’re beating the poor sod?