Ok. This will probably only end in tears.
I posted tonight on the social media a screenshot of Jeff Buckley’s Grace LP on my turntable with a caption to the effect of “after a 20 year layoff, it is back on with this album”.
One comment from a friend (in her forties, as am I) says she loves the LP; another comment, from a former student (I’m a high school teacher; she’s probably now late 20s, early 30s), mock-chiding me for not listening to it for the last 20 years. All in good humour and a shared understanding that it’s a great record.
My existential question is this:
Is there a (admittedly loose) cutoff point in the future from which someone could post an FB pic about a particular LP and have both peers AND people, say, 20 years younger still claiming it having a lasting resonance for them?
Are the doors of the canon closed? Or, have they been closing? Have we been hastily waving (say) the new Radiohead album under the steadily descending door?
I do want the answer to be no.
But I remember discussion here about Mark Lewisohn’s Beatles biography trilogy and people quite genuinely and kindly asking if, after such a labour of love on Lewisohn’s part, will anyone actually still give that much of a shit about one of (if not the) guiding force of late 20th century culture once the trilogy is finally written and published.
I mean, I’m sure we all dig Arctic Monkeys and Arcade Fire, and we all think This Is America is cutting edge (Tellingly though, i fucking curse the day I was born in Australia so i couldn’t see Matt Johnson get The The – an actual group that gave a fuck – back together.)
i dunno. i got into music earlier than most of my mates and have proudly instilled a love of popular music in my kids, but are we like those cats at the end of Fahrenheit 451 carrying arcane blocks of anachronistic knowledge into an uncertain and hostile future?
I do want the answer to be no.
Is there a group or artist you are currently passionate about that, 20 years after their current LP, you could see both your peers and people 20 years younger thank you both agreeing on having created work of lasting emotional and cultural resonance?
I do, quite genuinely, want the answer to be yes.
This will probably only end in tears.
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Moose the Mooche says
….and is the European canon here yet?
They haven’t even given me a tracking number…
DanP says
Funny you say that: I was listening to Bowie (Scary Monsters rather than Station to Station) while I was writing that post.
Sub-thread: Canons in Rock!
Moose the Mooche says
Sub-sub-thread – fugues in rock!
(very short thread)
DanP says
Sub-sub-sub-thread: Pogues playing fugues in rock!
Or, indeed, Deep Purple In Rock Playing Pogues Playing Fugues In Rock!
Moose the Mooche says
Rogues wearing Rogues wearing Brogues in Brogues in Bruges in Bruges in dub!
Lemonhope says
Hmm, a deep and difficult question to answer. Can’t we just start a list of … something?
I fear I’m too old to have a handle on what the young folks are listening to, the charts seem to be dominated by Hip-Hop [both light and dark] and while Radiohead [to use your reference] are certainly important to lots of people of differing ages, are they feeling them in a meaningful way? And by that I don’t mean in some superior way, but does it mean more to them than another 20 or so songs that came up on Spotify discover weekly? And that’s not me sneering down my nose at a generation that consume music in a completely different way than I did, I just can’t relate to their world – even though I have one toe in it [I love Spotify and all it’s nefarious ways] I’m not of it. There does seem to be room for much more width within the choices of the music loving public now.
So. I’m going to say ‘NO’ to the question
Lemonhope says
Whether or not the Buckley album is any good is another matter. I think it is, but not as good as it’s now held up to be by some, but the good tracks are stunningly beautiful – unfortunately the best tracks are the cover versions
Lodestone of Wrongness says
I don’t think any of us know which, if any, of ‘our’ music will still be listened to in 50 years time. Even now for instance, heretical viewpoints coming up, The Beatles have but a period charm and an awful lot of Dylan sounds screechy and mannered.
It wouldn’t surprise me if anything actually lasts it will be something that most of us on here turn up our noses at like Adele or Snow Patrol.
But, hey who cares, I likes what I like, I am a product of my time and if I think Noah and His Whale were the best pop group ever then I am most certainly correct.
DanP says
A very valid point, but therein lies the rub: Whether or not we (or our kids) like The Beatles or Dylan, they’re still “The Beatles” and “Dylan”. Or “The Stones”, “Pink Floyd”., etc Radiohead will, I’m guessing, still be “Radiohead”. years hence. As per my OP, Jeff Buckley will remain “Jeff Buckley”, because my 22 year old self, my 45 year old self AND my former student, now 30, still recognise and agree on “Jeff Buckley”.
I fear I’ve gone a bit “meta”.
Gary says
You’re gonna have to run that penultimate sentence by me again when I’m a little less stoned.
Moose the Mooche says
You missed out the “n” and the “l”
DanP says
I’m simultaneously meta, metal and mental.
(if Steve ‘arris is watching, i’ve got your autobiography title sorted)
Moose the Mooche says
Me->Meta->Metal->Mental->Fundamental
Colin H says
“arcane blocks of anachronistic knowledge…” – welcome to my world! I keep foisting books on such matters upon the world, whether it likes them or not. But I’d say the gates were closing.
Gary says
Here in Italy I’d say loads of sixties and seventies bands are still widely worshipped among the kind of youth who worship such things (ie. mostly boys). Floyd, Beatles, Zep, Queen, The Doors, AC/DC, to name but six (in order of how good they were, as you will have noted), are still the touchstones.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
Contradicting myself (as usual) but point well made ,Gary. Used to spend a lot of time in Eastern Europe and 98% of the music played were the groups you mention (apart from Poland where Joe Cocker reigned supreme). Been a while since I was in the US but my coast-to-coast experience was that College radio stations were stuck in a 1975 time-warp.
Moose the Mooche says
So, you’re telling us that there’s music that’s been made since 1975?
Priceless!
Baron Harkonnen says
Prog Rock is very popular in Polska Lodey. Just though you’d be very interested.
Mike_H says
Not all US College Radio, Sir Lodey, judging by this playlist for the week ending 13th May 2017 from WXYC, the college station for University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill NC.
(Long list)
Rank (Plays) Artist – ‘Title of CD/LP/EP/7-inch’ (RECORD LABEL)
—————————————————————
1 (9) Thundercat – Drunk (BRAINFEEDER)
2 (9) V/A – Spiritual Jazz Vol. 7: Islam (JAZZMAN)
3 (7) Awa Poulo – Poulo Warali (AWESOME TAPES FROM AFRICA)
4 (7) Chance the Rapper – Coloring Book ((self-released))
5 (7) Foxygen – Hang (JAGJAGUWAR)
6 (7) Mind Over Mirrors – Undying Color (PARADISE OF BACHELORS)
7 (7) Shabaka and the Ancestors – Wisdom of Elders (BROWNSWOOD)
8 (7) The Caretaker – Everywhere at the End of Time (HISTORY ALWAYS FAVORS THE WINNERS)
9 (7) Tomutonttu – Kevatjuhla (ALTER)
10 (7) V/A – Sensate Silk (100% SILK)
11 (7) Visible Cloaks – Reassemblage (RVNG INTL.)
12 (7) Wadada Leo Smith – America’s National Parks (CUNEIFORM)
13 (6) Ibibio Sound Machine – Uyai (MERGE)
14 (6) Jesca Hoop – Memories are Now (SUB POP)
15 (6) Jorge Reyes & Antonio Zepeda – A La Izquierda Del Colibri (EMOTIONAL RESCUE)
16 (6) Kostas Bezos and the White Birds – S/T (OLVIDO/MISSISIPPI)
17 (6) Luminance Ratio – Honey Ant Dreaming (ALTVINYL)
18 (6) Mary Halvorson Octet – Away With You (FIREHOUSE 12)
19 (6) Mazoma – Heavy Death Head (FEEDING TUBE)
20 (6) Natural Causes – S/T #2 (SORRY STATE)
21 (6) Pulse Emitter – Through the Portal (PHINERY)
22 (6) Sothy – Lam Seung!!!… Chansons Laotiennes (AKUPHONE)
23 (6) Tegucigalpan – Incisivi Tribolazione III N IV ((self-released))
24 (5) Exotica – Musique Exotique #1 (LA VIDA ES UN MUS)
25 (5) Eye – Untitled [Eye 005] ((self-released))
26 (5) G.S. Sultan – Redundancy Suite (PHINERY)
27 (5) Hen Ogledd – Bronze (ALTVINYL)
28 (5) Kingdom – Tears in the Club (FADE TO MIND)
29 (5) Roy Montgomery – R M H Q: Headquarters (GRAPEFRUIT)
30 (5) Skullflower – The Black Iron That Has Fell From The Stars, To Dwell Within (Bear It Or Be It) (NASHAZPHONE RECORDS)
31 (5) Thumbscrew – Convallaria (CUNEIFORM)
32 (5) Tinariwen – Elwan (ANTI-)
33 (5) V/A – Antologia de Musica Atipica Portuguesa Vol. 1: o trabalho (DISCREPANT)
34 (5) V/A – Mind Over Matter (GIEGLING)
35 (4) Anthony “Crystalline Roses” Pasquarosa with John “Sunburned” Moloney – My Pharaoh, My King (FEEDING TUBE)
36 (4) Ashley Bellouin – Ballads (DRAWING ROOM)
37 (4) Children of Alice – S/T (WARP)
38 (4) Clarinette – The Now of Then (FEEDING TUBE)
39 (4) Dimples’ – Whimpers’ (FEEDING TUBE)
40 (4) Dominique Lawalree – First Meeting (CATCH WAVE LTD./ERGOT)
41 (4) FNU Clone Inc. – Binary or Die (TOTAL PUNK)
42 (4) Group Doueh & Cheveu – Dakah Sahara Sessions (BORN BAD)
43 (4) Jute Gyte – Perdurance (JESIMOTH)
44 (4) Kim Myhr – Bloom (HUBRO)
45 (4) Lee Morse – Sweeping the Cobwebs: Selected Recordings 1924-1930 (ASHERS)
46 (4) Luka Productions – Fasokan (SAHEL SOUNDS)
47 (4) Michael Vlatkovich – Myrnofant’s Kiss (pfMENTUM)
48 (4) Mike Cooper – New Guitar Old Hat Knew Blues (ROOM40)
49 (4) Mike Majkowski – Swimming in Light (ENTR’ACTE)
50 (4) Miyaka Koda – In the Shadow of Jupiter (17853)
51 (4) Natural Causes – “Deirdre/Fashion Device (Sponge Bath Version)” [7-inch] (ACID ETCH)
52 (4) Palberta – Bye Bye Berta (WHARF CAT)
53 (4) Peggy Gou – Seek for Maktoop (TECHNICOLOUR)
54 (4) Run the Jewels – RTJ3 ((self-released))
55 (4) Saal Hardali – S/T (BARBY BARC)
56 (4) Theo Parrish – Gentrified Love Part 1 (SOUND SIGNATURE)
57 (4) Unknown – Untitled (BANK)
58 (3) Abdou El Omari – Nuits D’Ete Avec Abdou El Omari (RADIO MARTIKO)
59 (3) Agnes – 012016002001 (CHAINED LIBRARY)
60 (3) Ahmed Malek & Flako – The Electronic Tapes (HABIBI FUNK)
61 (3) Benoit Pioulard – The Benoit Pioulard Listening Matter (KRANKY)
62 (3) Black Abba – “Lost Dog” [7-inch] (TOTAL PUNK)
63 (3) Boco – “Running the Mardi Gras/Smile” [7-inch] (BIG CROWN)
64 (3) Cracked Vessel – No Path (HIP KIDS)
65 (3) Dangus Tarkus – Rock N’ Roll For the People (DIG!)
66 (3) Don’t DJ – Musique Acephone (BECAUSE HEROIQUE)
67 (3) Frank Hurricane – Mountain Brew Light (FEEDING TUBE)
68 (3) Gonzo – “Radio Kampala/Skull Cave” [7-inch] (DISCREPANT)
69 (3) Hanno Leightman/Valerio Tricoli – The Future of Discipline (ENTR’ACTE)
70 (3) Huseyin Ertunc Trio – Musiki (HOLIDAYS)
71 (3) Jake Xerxes Fussell – What in the Natural World (PARADISE OF BACHELORS)
72 (3) Karriem Riggins – Headnod Suite (STONES THROW)
73 (3) King Ayisoba – 1000 Can Die (GLITTERBEAT)
74 (3) Lord Tang – Butterflies (MEAKUSMA)
75 (3) Michael Zerang & Spires That in the Sunset Rise – Illinois Glossolalia (FEEDING TUBE)
76 (3) Midori Takada – Through the Looking Glass (PALTO FLATS/WE RELEASE WHATEVER THE FUCK WE WANT)
77 (3) Mike Cooper – Reluctant Swimmer/Virtual Surfer (DISCREPANT)
78 (3) Nag – “False Anxiety” [7-inch] (TOTAL PUNK)
79 (3) On Filmore – Happiness of Living (NORTHERN-SPY)
80 (3) Real Estate – In Mind (DOMINO)
81 (3) Sango – De Mim, Pra Voce ((self-released))
82 (3) Shackleton & Vengeance Tenfold – Sferic Ghost Stories (HONEST JON’S)
83 (3) Surface to Air Missive – A V (LEAVING)
84 (3) Syrinx – Tumblers from the Vault (1970-1972) (RVNG INTL.)
85 (3) Trauma Harness – Halloween Songs Volume One (LUMPY RECORDS)
86 (3) Tzusing – Invincible East (L.I.E.S.)
87 (3) Unearth Noise – Prayer and Resonance (LULLABIES FOR INSOMNIACS)
88 (3) UV-TV – Glass (DERANGED)
89 (3) William Basinski – A Shadow in Time (TEMPORARY RESIDENCE)
90 (3) Yves De Mey – Late-Night Patching 1 EP (ENTR’ACTE)
Other records that were just added to this week’s playlist but are not listed above:
Abdou El Omari – Nuits D’Ete Avec Naima Samih (RADIO MARTIKO)
Father John Misty – Pure Comedy (SUB POP)
King Gizzard & The Lizard Wizard – Flying Microtonal Banana (ATO)
Abdou El Omari – Nuits De Printemps Avec Abdou El Omari (RADIO MARTIKO)
Banteay Amphil Band – Cambodian Liberation Songs (AKUPHONE)
Dawn Richard – Redemption (LOCAL ACTION)
Fabio Do Nascimento – Tempo Dos Mestres (NOW AGAIN)
Klein – ONLY (HOWLING OWL)
Shackleton – Devotional Songs (HONEST JON’S)
Temples – Volcano (FAT POSSUM)
Tredici Bacci – Amore Per Tuti (NNA)
YPY – 2020 (WHERE TO NOW)
HipHop Chart:
1 Thundercat – Drunk (BRAINFEEDER)
2 Chance the Rapper – Coloring Book ((self-released))
3 Eye – Untitled [Eye 005] ((self-released))
4 Run the Jewels – RTJ3 ((self-released))
5 Karriem Riggins – Headnod Suite (STONES THROW)
6 King Ayisoba – 1000 Can Die (GLITTERBEAT)
7 Sango – De Mim, Pra Voce ((self-released))
8 Dawn Richard – Redemption (LOCAL ACTION)
9 Klein – ONLY (HOWLING OWL)
10 meltycanon – soft & wet ((self-released))
Jazz Chart:
1 V/A – Spiritual Jazz Vol. 7: Islam (JAZZMAN)
2 Shabaka and the Ancestors – Wisdom of Elders (BROWNSWOOD)
3 Wadada Leo Smith – America’s National Parks (CUNEIFORM)
4 Mary Halvorson Octet – Away With You (FIREHOUSE 12)
5 Thumbscrew – Convallaria (CUNEIFORM)
6 Kim Myhr – Bloom (HUBRO)
7 Michael Vlatkovich – Myrnofant’s Kiss (pfMENTUM)
8 Huseyin Ertunc Trio – Musiki (HOLIDAYS)
9 Michael Zerang & Spires That in the Sunset Rise – Illinois Glossolalia (FEEDING TUBE)
10 Anna Hogberg Attack – S/T (OMLOTT)
Loud Rock Chart:
1 Natural Causes – S/T #2 (SORRY STATE)
2 Exotica – Musique Exotique #1 (LA VIDA ES UN MUS)
3 Skullflower – The Black Iron That Has Fell From The Stars, To Dwell Within (Bear It Or Be It) (NASHAZPHONE RECORDS)
4 FNU Clone Inc. – Binary or Die (TOTAL PUNK)
5 Jute Gyte – Perdurance (JESIMOTH)
6 Natural Causes – “Deirdre/Fashion Device (Sponge Bath Version)” [7-inch] (ACID ETCH)
7 Palberta – Bye Bye Berta (WHARF CAT)
8 Saal Hardali – S/T (BARBY BARC)
9 Black Abba – “Lost Dog” [7-inch] (TOTAL PUNK)
10 Cracked Vessel – No Path (HIP KIDS)
New World Chart:
1 V/A – Spiritual Jazz Vol. 7: Islam (JAZZMAN)
2 Awa Poulo – Poulo Warali (AWESOME TAPES FROM AFRICA)
3 Ibibio Sound Machine – Uyai (MERGE)
4 Jorge Reyes & Antonio Zepeda – A La Izquierda Del Colibri (EMOTIONAL RESCUE)
5 Kostas Bezos and the Wh ite Birds – S/T (OLVIDO/MISSISIPPI)
6 Sothy – Lam Seung!!!… Chansons Laotiennes (AKUPHONE)
7 Tinariwen – Elwan (ANTI-)
8 V/A – Antologia de Musica Atipica Portuguesa Vol. 1: o trabalho (DISCREPANT)
9 Group Doueh & Cheveu – Dakah Sahara Sessions (BORN BAD)
10 Luka Productions – Fasokan (SAHEL SOUNDS)
RPM Chart:
1 V/A – Sensate Silk (100% SILK)
2 Tegucigalpan – Incisivi Tribolazione III N IV ((self-released))
3 Kingdom – Tears in the Club (FADE TO MIND)
4 V/A – Mind Over Matter (GIEGLING)
5 Natural Causes – “Deirdre/Fashion Device (Sponge Bath Version)” [7-inch] (ACID ETCH)
6 Peggy Gou – Seek for Maktoop (TECHNICOLOUR)
7 Theo Parrish – Gentrified Love Part 1 (SOUND SIGNATURE)
8 Unknown – Untitled (BANK)
9 Don’t DJ – Musique Acephone (BECAUSE HEROIQUE)
10 Shackleton & Vengeance Tenfold – Sferic Ghost Stories (HONEST JON’S)
Lodestone of Wrongness says
That’s a long post to prove, once again, I am The Lodestone of Wrongness! I’m thinking that in my long-gone US days college radio was controlled by the sons & daughters of the Baby Boomers. Thank goodness things appear to have moved on. Joe Cocker is still King Of Poland though…
Mike_H says
It may well be that WXYC is atypical of US college radio in general.
One way in which they certainly are unusual, is that they claim to be the first ever radio station in the world to stream live to the ‘Net, in 1994.
http://www.wxyc.org/
fentonsteve says
I think (as in I’ve just made up this theory) that the accepted historical canon is 10-20 years before you were born, i.e. what your parents were listening to.
I was born in 1970, so Elvis, Cliff, Buddy, Fabs. My parents were not listening to Noel Coward or ragtime, or dancing the Charleston, and so neither was I.
My 15-y-o daughter listens to pop-goth newcomes Pale Waves – they are all in the early twenties and acknowledge their debt to The Cure. So I loaded The Head On The Door to her phone.
I was listening to The Cure when I was her age, whereas she thinks Sgt Pepper is “grandma’s old music”.
Does that make any sense?
deramdaze says
If we are to be like the characters at the end of Fahrenheit 451, all reciting facts, lyrics and melodies from an individual L.P., I bags “The Sound Of Fury” by Billy Fury.
It’s running time, at under 30 minutes easily learnt and memorised, would allow me more time to work my way into Julie Christie’s affections.
Tiggerlion says
There is very little me and my kids agree on. The eldest loves Queen, Oasis and The Stone Roses FFS. My daughter shares a love of Hip Hop but different artists. She’s not impressed with Kendrick but loves Eminem and we can share Kanye.
Reggae is your answer. Everybody loves Reggae. Even the odd weirdo who turns their nose up at Marley will enjoy Jimmy Clîff. It’s trans-generational and stopped being made from 1979 (well, proper Reggae, that is).
PS. I don’t think Grace is all that.
Rigid Digit says
“the odd weirdo who turns his nose up at Marley will enjoy Jimmy Cliff” – that’ll be me then.
I like some reggae, mainly from the ska end, but Bob Marely is Mr Blindspot for me.
Agree with your assessment of Grace – it aint all that
Vincent says
Don’t get Bob marley? Me too. Ska, bluebeat, and bass-righteous dub I love, Bob Marley – the Abba of reggae and thus over-rated and safe. OOAA.
That said, The canon emerging is abba, ELO, queen, ac/dc, the Eagles, bee gees, fleetwood Mac, later pink Floyd (look at the tribute bands and the funeral/ wedding songs). It’s like punk never happened.
Those cool record collections and obscure tracks/ ‘I like the early stuff’ bits of one-upmanship. Are pointless. It is Only of relevance inside the music buff bubble, and not even then. The world has moved on.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
Once again I am forced to argue with Tiggs. Amongst my friends ( if by friends you mean people I have met at least twice and can make a good if incorrect guess at my name) the only bit of reggae they know is Bob’s One Love, the rest for them is a mystery shrouded in a cloud of strange- smelling smoke.
Moose the Mooche says
He’s talking about real people, not Afterworders.
Tiggerlion says
Play them some, wi’ jam in. They’ll love it.
Moose the Mooche says
I think his friend prefers brown music to black music.
Moose the Mooche says
Like many people I thought Grace was quite a big deal in 1994 and now I return to it and can’t really understand why. A slight record, very much a debut album. Shame we never properly got to hear what else he could do (and no, Sweetheart The Drunk is not an album)
That fuss should have been made about Jah Wobble’s Take Me To God, which just gets bigger every time I come back to it.
Mavis Diles says
Grace is the template for a large proportion of music that followed. No matter what anyone thinks of it, the high voice, the sensitive un masculinity of it, the cover versions, even the way his voice is recorded. It remains widely copied.
Moose the Mooche says
Well there’s the problem with modern pop music in a nutshell. Too many blokes with high voices, not enough references to lavatory attendants in Hull.
Black Type says
Is this a discarded lyric for the Housemartins’ ‘Flag Day’? As it ‘appens, I once stood next to Paul Heaton in a public lavatory in Hull (waiting for a cubicle – not together!). Attendant not present, sadly.
davebigpicture says
Oddly enough, this popped up on Spotify today. I had no idea Joe Jackson had covered it.
moseleymoles says
I had that 12” aged 16, loved it especially Tilt
Rigid Digit says
The Manics may well go on forever.
But lasting resonance? That moment may have passed.
The Big Bands of Britpop – Oasis, Blur (not sure about Suede?) – and the bigguns just before – Roses and Mondays may well have a lasting appeal
A lot of bands have a relatively short life, mass appeal and mass sales, and then nothing – it’s the nature of the business now that few survive for a long time with duff albums (or even low selling ones).
Left-field suggestion: Kaiser Chiefs – Employment
Mike_H says
I reckon that in years to come Oasis, Blur etc. will be relegated to the status second-rank ’70s bands have now. Successful enough in their day to be remembered in a vague sort of way, but overshadowed by the better bands who were their contemporaries.
They won’t be seen as the Beatles or Stones of their era, that’s for sure.
Colin H says
You mean like Stray?
Moose the Mooche says
Stray were second-rank? They’ve had promotion!
Mike_H says
Uriah Heep.
Pink Fairies.
Sam Apple Pie.
Gnidrolog.
Colin H says
That looks like second down to fifth rank, in that order!
Mavis Diles says
I hope so. I enjoy music a lot more since I stopped wanting it to be important.
Moose the Mooche says
Fair point.
“I have to like this record because er…. the zeitgeist or something…”
We’ve all done it, and sometimes ended up buying or pretending to like some pretty pony stuff as a result.
Baron Harkonnen says
All the bands/artists/genres mentioned above will be remembered and discovered by new generations of music fans in the future. How they listen to it will be different or maybe CDs and vinyl will continue to be popular/unpopular.
Whether JB’s ‘Grace’ will be remembered in 20 years time, who knows. I loved that LP when it came out, played the fecker until the vinyl went crap. Then I played some of his dad’s stuff one day and thought WTF, JB ain’t a patch on Tim. Never played ‘Grace’ again. Gave the knackered LP and replacement CD away years ago.
atcf says
8 or 9 years ago I popped to my local live music venue for a drink. There was a bunch of 18-19 year olds playing to a reasonably large audience of their mates. After doing 3 or 4 of their own songs the singer said “We’re gonna finish with a real oldie – this one’s by the Libertines!”
Led who?
Moose the Mooche says
Arctic Monkeys, those grand old men of indie, formed as a band doing golden greats by, er, The Strokes.
Paul Wad says
Thing is, we’re mostly of an age that when we first started listening to music there wasn’t much in the way of choice, entertainment wise. There were 3 channels on telly, not many more radio stations that you would actually listen to, so programmes like Top of the Pops and Whistle Test were watched by millions, whilst Radio One had such a big portion of the nations lug holes. Apart from libraries that may lend records, the only way you could hear an album you didn’t own is if you bought it or a mate had it.
Not only that, but there wasn’t that much popular music that had gone before. 20-25 years of it in my case, and for the first dozen of those there wasn’t much of a variety. Most of the styles of music that dominate today hadn’t yet been invented. I was starting to take an interest in music when I was 8, which was 1977, mainly by playing my parents’ records. My son turned 8 recently. The sheer amount of music that is available to him at the push of a button is mind blowing. To be fair to him, he has all sorts on his iPod, from Little Richard to Black Sabbath to Bruno Mars, although his current favourites are songs from XBox games! So for an act from yesteryear to grab a new audience these days it is nigh on impossible without a song appearing on something like X-Factor. I got into Jeff Buckley because I’d been listening to his dad since my uncle gave me Tim Buckley’s debut album when I was about 13. He had a modest audience around the time Grace came out and he won a few more fans when bands like Radiohead started naming him as an influence, but the thing that brought him to a wider audience was when someone sang Hallelujah on the X-Factor.
I’ve still got a sizeable CD collection and I’d love if my kids took an interest and started playing them like I played my parent’s modest record collection, but it isn’t going to happen. There’s too much fighting for their attention these days. Hence my son’s current favourite song being from a ruddy video game! So there are going to be loads of great bands that are pretty much going to die out when our generation goes. We were talking about Prefab Sprout on another thread. Fantastic band with a fantastic catalogue, but what’s going to draw our kids’ generation to them? So, if I’ve got your question right, the door is going to close on a lot of great music. Unless someone writes a musical about them.
Pajp says
I agree. Miss Pajp’s knowledge of much of the music that is most familiar to me seems to come from her having heard it used in the Shrek films or on Strictly Come Dancing (you know the kind of thing – “Down In The Tube Station At Midnight” in a rumba style).
She does, however, seem to be investigating new (to her) music as a result of having heard another artist speak of it. For example, she has started to listen to Etta James as a result of her interest in Amy Winehouse, in much the same way as (say) Elvis Costello’s Kojak Variety lead me to Nashville Skyline and a “more than the hits” interest in Bob Dylan.
Having said that, she has not shown any interest in exploring my CD collection. Her loss, I say!
Tiggerlion says
What??! You don’t have any Etta James???
Pajp says
Oh, I do, it’s just that Miss Pajp did not find her through me. That’s why I say that it’s her loss if she doesn’t want to see what other gems her Dad might have.
Tiggerlion says
I’ll let you off, then.
count jim moriarty says
Arcade Fire and This Is America? No thanks.
Moose the Mooche says
Somebody on the old site said that AF are what it would sound like if you took ten random members of the public into a music shop, gave them each a different instrument and told them all to simply play as loudly as possible with no reference to anything else they could hear. Harsh but fair.
count jim moriarty says
AF aren’t quite that bad. On the other hand, Manic Street Preachers…
Everygoodboydeservesfruita says
The question is interesting at a cultural level, at a social level but difficult and kind of frustrating at a musical level. The main issue is the different frameworks people use to attempt to answer what is really a socio-cultural question (that is what really creates a canon). So the questions in creating a framework for addressing the overarching are pretty endless but…
– how was this piece of work (Sgt Pepper) used by the culture? How recognizable did it become – in the sense did it affect something, shift something, create a reference point for other aspects of the culture. Was it used literally and then ironically? Was its value disputed at the time – ie was not initially recognized but then became a touchstone (bad word) and then came into an existence (almost) independently of the actual material in the art work (are the songs good?).
Since I’ve already annoyed people with this determination to create some kind of theoretical order to the question I should say that the absence of this framework is what makes the conversation kind of dull and vulnerable to both yawns from the superior and over excitement from those who think that everybody is entitled to an opinion (I know what I like…) OR “actually there are are only a couple of good songs on The Band – it was really about their sensibility”.
So… I have not played Grace for a long time but definitely canonical since the emergence of 40-50 min collection of songs (LP) attributable to an artist’s vision of him/herself as having something to contribute to the culture that is designed to be something slightly more than purely ephemeral pleasure.
DanP says
Yep. That’s the gist of my original post. Less about whether or not someone ‘likes’ a particularly popular piece of work; more about cultural consensus over time.
The Good Doctor says
The music press and the Top 40 charts used to canonise and curate music for us. Kids growing up now obviously don’t have NME or Melody Maker to tell them what to like, not sure if the charts mean anything to them – and they have access to a vast, free library of music. How they navigate that will depend on things like Spotify playlists, the endless shoving from whatever social media things they’re glued to and perhaps the ‘suggestions’ that YouTube makes when you’re playing a music clip – the people that build those algorithms and playlists are probably deciding ‘the canon’.
However, it’s kind of the same as it ever was just the technology and channels are different. Casual music fans will get what’s marketed in their direction – smart kids who are truly passionate about music will do what we all did – plough their own furrow and discover things they love, older siblings will recommend things, they’ll catch a tune at a festival or on the radio and discover their own things. I’m not too concerned that they’ll miss “classic albums” – couldn’t care less in fact. They’ll maybe find loads of non-canonical wonderful things that previous generations missed because they’re not the holy tablets of stone handed down between 1960 and 1990. Also, musicans and bands are the ones who pick up the old stuff when looking for inspiration and share that with the next generation – how many bands or artists have you discovered through other bands you already like referencing them as an influence?
The Good Doctor says
…And here’s an extreme example. My mate’s kids love this boy band called New Hope Club – they’re yer typical millenials with neat haircuts doing that bloodless R&B-lite that is modern pop – their mum was telling me they do a Beatles tribute in their set. Here it is
It’s fucking crap obviously- trawl round Liverpool pubs on a Friday night and you’ll find any number of tribute bands that piss on this effort -but y’know this a boy band playing to young kids and this is how this stuff is kept alive – a lot of those screaming kids don’t know those songs and they haven’t seen that cool footage they’re showing – they have now.
Harold Holt says
Tricky. Is it closed…probably not, but I’m damned if I can think of anything to put in it after the 90s, which is a pretty long fallow period. What the hell would you put alongside Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, The Who etc.
It’s tough to justify stuff like… Bon Iver (Bon Iver – 2011) ? REM (Collapse – 2011) ? Joanna Newsom (Have One One Me – 2010) ? John Grant (Queen of Denmark – 2010) ?
Some Hold Steady perhaps ? Gorillaz ? Aimee Mann ? Nick Cave and/or Grinderman ? Sigur Ros ? Tom Waits ? Blue Nile ? Radiohead ? Jason Isbell ?
Their appeal might be a bit ‘selective’.
Can we take it as read that the canon isn’t going to involve Ed Sheeran, Coldplay, Taylor Swift and Adele, or am I just being a snob?
I guess the other aspect of the OP is that it seems to be implicitly the rock canon, so wither your hippety hoppity and rapping? Not my area of expertise. Or rather my expertise is limited to what you could write on the inside of a matchbook with a grease pencil (I forget who I stole that quote from).
Tahir W says
‘Canon’ is not what you like, nor what is popular at the time of its production, nor what the critics say. It is what a substantial group of people can, over a suitably long period of time, develop a sense of community (shared appreciation, etc) around. In the case of literature ‘a suitably long period of time’ usually means after the author and his/her contemporaries have all died.
I fear that this concept may not be applicable to popular music. I find it difficult to imagine that the Archies or the Monkees will be widely admired in the 22nd or 23rd century. What people tend to admire long after the fact tends to be work that is carried out at a level of sophistication and complexity that somehow withstands the ravages of time, at least for certain admirers.
So Coltrane maybe? Miles maybe? Big maybes. After not much more than half a century has Charlie Parker become canonical? Perhaps too soon to say. The closest any artist in a popular genre has come to being canonical is probably Robert Johnson. I’d bet on him going a century at least. His work has been widely revered for about 80 years now.
Mike_H says
Only roughly 50 years for Robert Johnson. Before the later half of the ’60s only Blues scholars knew he’d even existed.
Tahir W says
Correction, and more to the point: Robert Johnson is widely revered after 80 years, and counting.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
Correction – what Mike says stands, for thirty years nobody apart from 27 scholars knew Robert existed
Tahir W says
No, I was correcting myself. Look a little closer. After 80 years RJ is still very well respected. There is nothing incorrect about my reformulation. The fact that he was unknown at first also says a lot about the process of canonization. And I challenge you or anyone to match that with a similar example in a popular genre.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
No, I was correcting myself says Puzzled of Pouzolles.
Tahir W says
You is easily puzzled, Your Wrongness
Mike_H says
Nick Drake, Tahir?
Could hardly get arrested, as they say, while alive. Pretty much a forgotten man after his death until the start of the ’90s.
Tahir W says
Dunno, can’t listen to him.
Arthur Cowslip says
I feel this thread is just itching for DisappointmentBob to pop up and explain how pop music is as good now as it ever was and we are all snobs.
attackdog says
Snobs are as good now as they ever were, it just that we don’t necessarily all like the same pop music.
Moose the Mooche says
Snobbery was at its best in 1971.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
Nah, twas 1967, Incredibles or Jethro?
Blue Boy says
I don’t think any pop music has been produced on the assumption that it will still be being listened to in 20 years time. The vast majority won’t be. But some will stick, and I think that’s as true of music begin produced now, as much as it is of music made in the 60s. The problem is that it’s still to early to say what will last. And even what will last will only be listened to by a tiny majority. Coltrane will probably be in that category: Ellington and Shostakovich certainly will; so too, I think, The Beatles and Dylan. But don’t expect any of them to be mass market popular artists.
deramdaze says
I went into Sainsbury’s last week and they had about 10 vinlys … the least famous of which was probably “Nevermind” by Nirvana … and about the same number of CDs, discounting the numerous compilations and Father’s Day “inspired” stuff – who on earth buys them?
My theory is that by about 2025 they’ll just have about 10 records that will be the canon of pop music. Adele will be one, Oasis, “Legend,” “Thriller,” possibly “Sgt. Pepper’s.”
The 2020s should be a truly fascinating time for the greater percentage of the population … 10 records and the never-ending saga of Brexit.
Can’t wait.
Mavis Diles says
The official canon is here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Recording_Registry
…I mean this lot will probably survive whatever the human race throws at itself.
Moose the Mooche says
No Fulham Fallout?
They deserve Trump!
Tiggerlion says
I’ll posit that Louis Armstrong’s legacy is still going strong after ninety-odd, not that far from a hundred, years on.
retropath2 says
Hmmm, amongst the knowing, but he still means little more than WaWW to most people. (O yeah…)
Tahir W says
What he said.