Has he gone too far?
I watched the press conference and could see that, more than ever, President Trump was completely out of his depth. Putin’s expression was one of incredulity as Trump stumbled his way into a calamity entirely of his own making.
Or is this the cunning mind of a master negotiator? He’s certainly an enigma – I’ll give him that. Rather than just disagreeing with him on political and social matters, these days I am thinking that he’s not right in the head. Not in an I-think-he’s-stupid way, more a he-needs-professional-help way.
Leicester Bangs says
Notwithstanding the fact that he is indeed Putin’s poodle, I think it’s bit of a storm in a teacup as regards serious repercussions. He’ll say he was just being diplomatic and playing his cards close to his chest.
Mind you I hope I’m wrong!
Moose the Mooche says
Some US pointyhead on Newsnight said “He appears to appease Putin” and Mrs Moose yelled out “Pease puddin’!”
High standard of political debate in wor hoose.
Tiggerlion says
It’s bewildering.
There are times I can see his point: China does steal intellectual property and misbehave in markets, European countries in NATO don’t pay their fare share, a tyrant with nuclear weapons needs to be persuaded to scrap them, too many military incursions across the world have Russia on one side and the West on the other. Then, there are widespread beliefs he shares with others, even if they are mistaken: immigrants take our jobs and are bad for the economy, where I live I don’t see any climate change. He looks at the world through the lens of an introspective white American, who make up the majority of the population that vote.
His generalisations, extrapolations, bare-faced lies and venal pride are simply astonishing. His ego is such, he is convinced a quiet chat with Kim Jung-un will persuade him to surrender his weapons or that Putin will listen to what he has to say or tearing a strip off the EU will get positive results for America. All that before we mention his objectification of women and casual racism.
He is entirely incapable of understanding consequences, let alone looking at the bigger picture and thinking about the greater good. He has no interest in institutions, caring only about his own business and how he looks on telly. He gives no thought to what comes out of his mouth or his thumbs on Twitter because he is always right.
The trouble is, there are lots of American voters Yee-ha!ing him on. They are not about to abandon him, even though those jobs are not coming their way, they will soon find they can’t access health care when they need it and those recent big tax breaks only benefit big business and the super rich. They will not realise this until well after the next election and if you are hoping for impeachment, dream on.
In the meantime, smart cookies like Putin, Jung-un and China are rubbing their hands with glee. Watching the press conference yesterday, Putin could barely contain his glee. He had to work very hard to maintain that glum face.
There was no substance to the summit because there is no substance to Trump. He’s a blimp, full of foul-smelling gas, the most powerful man in the world, wreaking havoc.
Sitheref2409 says
“He looks at the world through the lens of an introspective white American, who make up the majority of the population that vote.”
He lost the popular vote and won on the electoral college. I may be lucky in the people I know, but I’m not sure I recognize your description of White America. Some are globalists, some are convinced about USA’s right to rule the world.
Tiggerlion says
I take your point. However, there were enough Americans sharing his view sufficiently to put him in power and I’m worried there will be enough for him to win a second term.
SteveT says
That @Tiggerlion is spot on and almost mirrors my own views. Some of his beliefs make some sense but the problem is for every good idea he has there are 10 bad ones to dililute anything he does being worthwhile. The extreme side of his nature is unfortunately the dominant side of his nature.
Contrast with his nearest comparison Reagan. He also had extremr ideas but listened to the team around him who gave good counsel. Unfortunately listening to others is not a Trump trait.
Tahir W says
“the most powerful man in the world, wreaking havoc”
This is more or less what many have said of Putin. I reckon Putin is more powerful and clever, but Crimea is not exactly havoc. Yet the latter seems to have been Trump’s only beef with Putin.
Fifer says
I used to think that “Dead Ringers’ was taking the piss, now I think it’s a news show. I find it increasingly difficult to differentiate between the caricature and the reality. And that ain’t a good place to be!
Carolina says
Such is the outrage in the US about his conduct yesterday, even among Trump-backing politicians, I think he will have to do one of his famous about-turns and backtrack somewhat on his Putin adoration/ criticism of his own intelligence agencies. It was a sickening spectacle, though entirely predictable.
Last night I was imagining Trump’s meetings with other tyrants – Hitler “helluva guy” Pol Pot “very misunderstood” The Borgias “very smart family” etc etc
Who would ever imagine an American President would lambast the EU as a foe, and a few days afterward cosy up to a Russian dictator?
Moose the Mooche says
He also lambasts the CIA as a foe. Given what they did to at least one of his predecessors, that’s not entirely unreasonable… but that ain’t why he does it.
chiz says
That was exactly what happened… fancy a job in international diplomacy?
Carolina says
Haha, not really thanks! Following his run of about-turn behaviour on the Texan border migrant scandal, and last week’s Sun interview on Brexit, May and Boris and subsequent back-down (and numerous others) it is getting to be a well-worn pattern. Probably occurs when his US advisers or team have collared him after his outbursts and talked sufficient sense into him.
Moose the Mooche says
He likes acclaim. He didn’t get any for this. Even F*x News had a pop.
Mike_H says
He is the very loosest of loose cannons.
He’s not stupid, just vapid. Says stuff and probably can’t even remember what he’s said until it’s spelled out to him.
Dangerous!
Moose the Mooche says
The cognitive dissonance comes from the fact that we are used to people from the right being efficient. They know what they want, they usually get it in the most direct manner possible, they carry with them greater loyalties than their personalities might inspire.
I do favour the distraction thesis – what is being done while Trump is doing all this crazy shit – which, on this evidence, is never going to stop? I don’t know, and I’m not sure I want to.
Mike_H says
The American political system is acclimatised to The President being just a figurehead and the real business being done behind the scenes. Obama had a go at changing that, scared them for about 5 minutes (including his own party who are in on the scam) and was quickly made to fail and pretty much gave up banging his head on a brick wall.
Trump is a different ballgame but they think they are ready this time and know how to deal with him. We shall see.
attackdog says
I think Tiggers observation is spot on.
I can’t think of any reason why a successful corporatist cannot combine such a background with diplomacy to successfully steer the world order.
Unfortunately Trump is a corporate shit with no understanding of the values and application of diplomacy.
MC Escher says
You’ll have to define what you mean by “successful” here, I think: Trump inherited his fortune and is making it smaller as time passes.
attackdog says
You know, you may be right. Perhaps I misspoke but hey, it’s more likely to be a transcript error. When I said the word successful I actually meant very successful. Were going to make a great successful success. Afterword First. Afterword First.
MC Escher says
Look! A squirrel!
attackdog says
No need for that. That’s just Attackdog Derangement Symptom. I am Scottish, you know. Tact and diplomacy is our benchmark.
MC Escher says
And don’t rule out impeachment totally. There are still people in both political camps over there who care enough about constitutional checks and balances to give us hope that Mueller will bring Trump to heel.
Tiggerlion says
He better get a move on. At this rate he’ll have won a second term before he’s up before a beak.
Jackthebiscuit says
FWIIW I think Trump will be a two term President.
He is giving the republican party what they want (Conservative judges, tax cuts) & all the time he is doing this, congress (both houses of which have republican majorities) are more or less supporting anything he wants.
No senior republican wants to (or is willing to) oppose him.
He is made of Teflon.
Even if Mueller does produce a damning report, I do not believe that the house of representatives will call for impeachment. IF they did I believe that the senate will find no case to answer & this will enable him to portray the whole investigation as a witch hunt & use it to motivate his supporters to get out & reelect him.
Interesting times ahead I think.
Vincent says
All of the above. And the solution was Hilary Clinton? As corporate a shill as TD. The thing that worries me is that the Democrats still don’t have serious players to take on TD, and, what’s worse, if he passed away under 3 hookers, he’s replaced by Mike Pence, an end times born again crank. As you say Russia and China must be pissing themselves at the dork the US have in power.
Tahir W says
I think it is important to debunk the Clinton alternative. She would have been a warmonger of note, and anyone who doubts that just isn’t paying attention.
Identity politics aren’t everything and the sliding scale of liberal-conservative doesn’t tell us all that much about the state of wellbeing of the world.
Vincent says
Mos def: identity politics means as long as you are a rich Liberal, you can keep the great unwashed out. This one of the reasons we are in this pickle.
Moose the Mooche says
Five minutes of one of those late-night Colbert/Maher/Oliver self-congratulatathons tells you exactly how the world has ended up with President Trump. If you people are so fucken clever, how come…. ? Oh never mind
Lando Cakes says
Hilary Clinton would have been a perfectly competent President. “Warmonger of note” is a bit over-cooked, I think.
Tahir W says
As I say, you clearly haven’t been paying attention.
Lando Cakes says
I think I have. I’m aware of Clinton’s faults. Taking them into account, I conclude that she would have made a perfectly competent president.
Tahir W says
Nothing like repetition.
See below for further details.
SteveT says
A perfectly competent crooked president who had siphoned off money from her own charity to the tune of tens of millions. Has taken bribes from foreign governments and can’t even use the correct email account. In what way is that competent?
The choice facing American voters was dreadful. And the Democrats fucked it up by removing Sanders as a viable runner against the madman.
metal mickey says
I loathe & detest HRC and was completely anti- her election… until Trump became the GOP nominee. Even with all of the above points against her, there’s no way her presidency would have been worse than this shitshow, even if it had just been “more of the same”…
There’s a small part of my brain that sympathises with the view that Trump (like Brexit) is shaking up a complacent and elitist political establishment, but frankly, if Trump & Brexit is the alternative, can we have the establishment back, please?
(Or is that just what they want us to think…?)
Tahir W says
I know Brits don’t always like talking about events in scruffy faraway places, but there is the little matter of Hill voting for the invasion of Iraq, and also forcefully prosecuting the case for the dismemberment of Libya and the killing of Qaddafi (and boasting about it afterwards), not to mention presiding over the assassination of Usama bin Laden on the soil of a friendly nation while he was watching television. All of this while she was Secretary.
Imagine her as president! Susan Sarandon has defended her position of voting Green by saying if HRC had won ‘we’ would probably be at war by now. I concur. She was gonna show just how hawkish a woman can be. All the evidence points that way.
metal mickey says
I don’t disagree per se, it’s just a shame that we have to apparently choose between the single potential large ill (war) on HRC’s side, and the endless procession of “smaller” ills (racism, women’s rights, nazi sympathy, erosion of rule of law, almost-certain treason, economic illiteracy, climate change/environmental disaster, demonisation of the free press, etc. etc.) on Trump’s….
Sitheref2409 says
I voted a straight Blue ticket at the General. I’m less likely to do that in any local, but that’s more due to one of my Senators than HRC.
Here’s my story about why HRC may not have been as bad as you think. I have a friend – we’ll call him Paul. Paul was part of the investigation into the Clintons back in the 90s. As in, serious, heavyweight lawyer.
I was at a tournament with Paul in about 2007 and the subject of the Clintons came up. I’ve never seen or heard anything like it since. Spittle flying, purple face, language I’d be proud to swear in. It was a magnificent episode to which I cannot do justice.
When the candidates came up for the General, Paul was perfectly happy to advocate against the Rs and for HRC. (As a side note – there are plenty of responsible Republicans out there).
You clearly know more about HRC than I do, but a couple of thoughts. There are very few Senators who were in Congress at the same time as her who voted against invading Iraq; at the time, it would have been political suicide.
The e-mail thing? It seems to have slipped a lot of people by, but previous SoS (hello Mr Powell) have admitted to doing the same thing.
There wasn’t a great candidate out there, but to pretend that HRC was going to be “bad” is buying into the misogynism that pervades US politics. (My first choice was Jim Webb)
MC Escher says
Can you explain your lawyer friend’s anger please – I’m not clear from your tale whether he hated or was defending the Clintons?
Sitheref2409 says
Sorry. If he could have tortured them and gotten away with it, he would have.
I thought the fact that he was on Ken Starr’s team was the giveaway!
Lando Cakes says
Ah, those emails!
Twang says
There’s a cracking The Briefing Room podcast on the Democrats which I would highly recommend…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09jvvp2
All the TBR casts are good actually. David Aaronovitch takes a subject and gets a proper briefing from experts rather than opinion formers or politicians (though some are…but it’s their knowledge he’s after) and takes a Socratic approach to trying to get to a clear position.
Mike_H says
Very interesting and pertinent.
Engaging with America’s White Working Class doesn’t have to be accepting racism, sexism etc. It needs to be done with intelligence and respect but it needs to be done, or the Democrats will lose again next time.
Sewer Robot says
I’d say the reason yesterday’s fiasco is a hot potato at all is because the man they call Twitler had to answer well-worded questions at an actual grown up press conference. His presidency has been marked by the absence of same and a deluge of tweets (original strategy: these are not official statements) in place of addresses to the American people.
Nothing he said yesterday apart from his reference to Putin’s great new idea was surprising or even new from him.
Tiggerlion says
Putin had a great new idea?
I know he lied. He said he didn’t even know Trump was in Moscow when he allegedly indulged in golden showers. In that case, how did Putin manage to buy him a gift?
Sewer Robot says
Putin’s idea:
This treaty has specific legal procedures we can offer. The appropriate commission headed by Special Attorney Mueller, he can use this treaty as a solid foundation and send a formal, official request to us so that we could interrogate, hold questioning of these individuals who he believes are privy to some crimes. Our enforcement are perfectly able to do this questioning and send the appropriate materials to the United States. Moreover, we can meet you halfway. We can make another step. We can actually permit representatives of the United States, including the members of this very commission headed by Mr. Mueller, we can let them into the country. They can be present at questioning.
In this case, there’s another condition. This kind of effort should be mutual one. Then we would expect that the Americans would reciprocate. They would question officials, including the officers of law enforcement and intelligence services of the United States whom we believe have something to do with illegal actions on the territory of Russia. And we have to request the presence of our law enforcement.
I thought I saw a clip of Trump referring to this proposal, but in the transcript all I can find is him passing the mic to VP to explain what they have discussed..
Sewer Robot says
Correction: found it. Trump describes this as “an incredible offer”.
Tiggerlion says
Didn’t we do this when investigating the poisoning of Litvinenko? Our guys went to Russia and were given the run around rather than co-operation. We came home chastened and empty handed.
Carolina says
Probably why when they “offered their help” during the Novichok poisoning the British government was distinctly unimpressed.
Mike_H says
This latest “Novichok incident” is proving a lot more interesting.
Reading between the lines here, is this just a contaminated Class A drugs scenario, but with a more serious contaminant than previously?
Somebody with access to nerve agents trying to kill junkies?
And therefore unrelated to the other one?
Tahir W says
I thought even the first incident was weird. The second is very weird indeed.
Gatz says
Hasn’t the survivor of the second incident said that the novichok was in a spray bottle that his partner found and used on her wrists? hat seems like a reasonable chain of events – agents unknown though likely Russian used novichok in a spray bottle on a door handle or whatever, the bottle was then discarded and found. I know nothing of nerve agents but assume it would retain its potency in the bottle. The only loose end in that is that the bottle used in a carefully planned attack would be discarded in the same area.
Moose the Mooche says
The proximity to Porton Down is interesting too.
Tahir W says
Only loose end? How about a chain of evidence leading to a real suspect? There has been a complete lack of public interest in this matter, which is normally the focus of a criminal investigation. I’m not saying I know what happened, but this seems a rather ham-fisted operation, which is the second thing that I find weird. The fact that the target actually survived the ‘weapons grade’ nerve agent attack. Then there was the way that the father and daughter were quickly spirited away, just as quickly as bin Laden’s body was tossed into the sea, no trial no packdrill.
Any bets on whether we’ll ever see a suspect tried or even identified as the one who actually did the deed? I wouldn’t bet on it, because I don’t know the answers to what I see as a number of remaining ‘loose ends’, i.e. questions.
Vincent says
Trump would outsource intelligence if he needed it – common for the managerial class. He can’t bluff on the world stage. He must have absolutely no insight as otherwise he’d resign yesterday.
Sitheref2409 says
Intelligence over here has a high rate of outsourcing already.
bungliemutt says
Yebbut, Trump meant to say he couldn’t see any reason why Russia wouldn’t have meddled in the US election, rather than he couldn’t see any reason why they would. Which means that he lied, er, no sorry, misspoke. Or is just a complete arsehole. Or a lying arsehole.
Sewer Robot says
That’s the beauty of the grown up press conference. With tweets the defence is “he was obviously joking – get a sense of humour Lefties!” With audio interviews it’s “but on the other part of the tape he said really complimentary things”, but real time answers to straight questions are harder to roll back (at the Helsinki press conference his evasion was more damning than anything he actually said) so all that’s left is the “retard” defence: your President wasn’t selling you out he’s just that thick that he said the opposite of what he meant.
Like the way he’s so forgetful that he only remembers to shoe Merkel after spending the morning with her and he’s far too polite to stand over his comments undermining Teasmaid when she’s right beside him..
Mike_H says
He’s not stupid, he’s a sociopath gobshite who doesn’t pay much attention to what he says unless someone has previously told him what not to say.
His briefing team was obviously unprepared on that occasion.
Or they had difficulty getting him to pay attention.
Carolina says
I read in the Washington Post they gave him 100 pages of briefing documents, which was bound to fail as he can only just about cope with a single side of bullet points. But the upshot of them was “Don’t look weak in front of Putin. Be Firm and Strong with him” which he monumentally failed to do.
chiz says
It’s been the weirdest week. Vote Leave guilty of cheating, as well as the lying we already knew about; four Labour rebels steering us onto the rocks of a hard Brexit and preventing an election being triggered; Tories breaking the pairing code which will force pregnant MPs and recent mothers to attend votes in future; Gove says, oh yeah, that stuff about immigrants, that was nonsense, actually; Labour doubling down on its distain for jewish groups; and Trumpet braying the first thing that comes into his head, then saying he didn’t. It’s only Wednesday morning.
Politics is so fucked. We are so screwed.
Martin Hairnet says
Don’t forget the forest fires raging north of the Arctic Circle. That kind of event can help to put our politics into perspective.
I’ve been finding this rather medicinal this week:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba-c6LIuluY
attackdog says
Right up to the end I was waiting for it to start. Have I missed something?
Martin Hairnet says
Yes. Yes you have. You’ve missed the sound of a distant, hopeful voice, floating on gorgeous pulsing waves of gurgling synths, solemn, but uplifting. It all conspires to allow me a precious moment of elation, to be considered, or played out again.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve played this track over the last few days, at very high volume. I find it an immensely helpful tonic to the international shitshow unfolding before us.
Sorry there’s no middle eight.
Sewer Robot says
You could shortcut a significant chunk of your career as a movie/tv series reviewer by employing that one sentence: “right up to the end I was waiting for it to start”.
One of my absolute favourite shows of recent years – Rectify – could easily be dismissed in such terms!
Vulpes Vulpes says
Pitchforks! Lanterns! Gallons of tar and tallow! Get your essentials right here! Bargains to be had! Hanging rope, ten cents a yard. Cheap ammunition!
Black Celebration says
In light of Trump’s retraction, Edward Woodward feels confident enough to be able to revert to his real birth name, Edwouldn’t Wouldn’twouldn’t.
(David Baddiel joke)
DrewToo says
I am totally in agreement that we are in “lunatic in charge of asylum” mode right now. Everyday brings jaw dropping disbelief of what he manages to do.
Some comments however on the thoughts that “even” Fox news are now against him. I was “lucky” enough to have dinner with half a dozen Trump supporters last night. Fabrication equipment salesman from Alabama – you get the picture – his “base”. After a few drinks the subject of Mondays debacle came up – surely no defense was possible??
A smattering of the thoughts –
– the media cant stand a non – political telling the truth
– he’s not smart with words – that’s what makes him real
– telling it like it is
– ‘Merica first
– at least he has proven himself a success in business
– *shows graph of improving sales on his phone* – that’s all I care about – and his lower taxes
made that happen
– etc etc
Nothing that happened this week changed their minds on anything – bizarrely – perhaps even reinforced. I used to think a second term was impossible – but it is bizarre – the worse he is – the more is base is resolved. I hope Mueller has the goods – hell – he has the goods already – but not enough folks care.
The Dems. have to mobilize for the mid terms – and put forward a viable inspirational non extreme 2020 candidate (not Bernie).
There MUST be more of us than them………..
metal mickey says
Well, if it’s any encouragement, there are more of “us”, HRC won the popular vote quite convincingly, it’s the college system that put Trump in the WH, let’s hope the Dems have plenty of data analysts studying the swing states as closely as the GOP apparently did last time…
And that summary of the thoughts of your Trump supporters (which I’ve seen parsed many times in the past 2 years) just seems like more evidence of a cult mentality – “he’s great because he’s great”, with no evidence sought or apparently required.
Mike_H says
If Hilary had beaten Trump to the presidency it would have just pushed the underlying problem down the road to crop up again later, only worse.
Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats truly represent ordinary working Americans, black or white.
Tahir W says
My man, I bow to your wisdom. Can you clone yourself please?
Jeez!
DrewToo says
A cynic speaks……….”Ordinary Working Americans” – don’t want to be represented at all. Politics is a side show – in reality – if they can get up, work, have dignity, money and safety then they just want to be left alone.
Politics means thinking about other people – a luxury – until you cant – get up, cant work, have no dignity or money or life is dangerous.
I have no answers – that’s just reality.
Moose the Mooche says
“We don’t want freedom
We don’t want justice
We just want someone to love”
colrow26 says
Thank you to everyone who has posted on this thread…its a fascinating read and far easier than trying to “follow”/”understand” events on twitter!!!
Black Celebration says
Loved the HRC emails comment. Trump said “she had 33,000 emails and they just disappeared! That’s something that wouldn’t happen in Russia!”.
The investigation into Russia’s successful bid to host the World Cup was derailed when Russian authorities revealed that they had updated their computer systems recently and absolutely everything from that time had been deleted and could not be retrieved.
Even I have a back up thing in the “cloud” if I lose all my vital documents.
Moose the Mooche says
Do they not have Recuva? I do, it’s great.
Mike_H says
Hilary Clinton would probably have got the US (and the rest of NATO, who do as the US masters tell them) into Syria and, while cramping Putin’s style a little, would have got thousands more soldiers killed for nothing, really.
America’s control over NATO is a very dangerous thing, IMO. These days it’s mostly by controlling the purse strings but it started by blatant military occupation. WWII ended and America had troops all over Western Europe and a lot of the far east. They stayed. In my belief because they made it plain that, welcome or not, they weren’t going back.
Up till now they’ve been quite nice about it, but with Trump in the White House and Pence and his doomsday zealots in charge of the Republican Party and both Congress and Senate…
Tiggerlion says
Looking back on this now, it just seems more astonishing. At Helsinki, Trump was a pet poodle rolling over, begging Putin to tickle his tummy. Since then, he’s been busy flapping about, claiming he mis-spoke and that he really loves the FBI, statements carefully written down for him to read from. Now, he wants Putin to come to the White House to humiliate him and America even more. Oh. And there’s no collusion. Remember that.